"Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

[bsmith]

I think the only solution we lose out on by restricting The Great Lemming Caper is my no bashers solution.  Half on Nessy's solutions already fit in the 2 of each destructive skill limit and the others can be tweaked by substituting a miner for a basher.  So, lets go ahead and trim the skillset.  The fastest solution is still the catch the climber solution, which can be the talisman for the level.

I attached my replay for Everyone's a hard nut.  The third lemming is rescued through the one way wall but uses a much different route than Proxima's solution.

I did find a solution to If At First You Don't Succeed that did not corral the horde of lemmings.  I still don't like the extra water since it seems like a rather drastic change.  I still think we should go with my version and then remove the blockers and bombers (which I have not used in either solution I have).

[Nepster]

The Great Lemming Caper [...] The fastest solution is still the catch the climber solution, which can be the talisman for the level.

Yes, but catching the climber takes a bit over 50 seconds, while there are other solutions that solve the level within 53 seconds. This difference is far too small for my taste to add this talisman.

[Proxima]

My proposed wording for the talisman is "solve with 6 skills total", not making any reference to time. (Alternatively, "no blockers", although this still has several solutions. If the poll ends up favouring multiple talismans per level, we could additionally have "no bashers", which can still be done with 2 of each destructive skill.)

Interesting solution to Hard nut. I find it less attractive than mine because it doesn't use the full level area (mine builds over the trap in the top-right), but I wouldn't say it's a backroute or needs to be fixed. I've attached an example of the kind of solution I think certainly is a backroute. (I haven't yet done any work on fixing this backroute.)

I don't want to remove the bomber and blocker from If at first, because firstly, there are valid solutions using them, such as one posted by (I think) nin10doaddict earlier in the topic. Also, this doesn't prevent the "single hero lemming" backroute (although it does make it harder, so maybe it's not a backroute any more). After bashing the first pillar, have another lemming dig at the top of the stairs, containing the crowd; later use a builder to cross this gap.

[Nepster]

Proxima was interested in talismans to "Flow Control" on IRC, so I am posting there a replay that saves 17/21 lemmings.

[bsmith]

17/21 is impressive, best I figured out was 10/21.

Also I have spent more time with If At First You Don't Succeed and have complied 10 solutions to the original version.  This could be Nessy's next episode in The Many Solutions Of series.  At this point I think that no alterations should be made to this level.

[Nessy]

Also I have spent more time with If At First You Don't Succeed and have complied 10 solutions to the original version.  This could be Nessy's next episode in The Many Solutions Of series.  At this point I think that no alterations should be made to this level.

Awesome! I can make this into the next video in the series, and give you all the credit for them of course.

[bsmith]

I have one more solution for If At First You Don't Succeed. This one is the only solution I have found that uses only one basher and does not bash under the three pillars. So now I propose this: Add a steel plate under each pillar to close off that route and make a talisman for using only one basher while solving the level.

[Proxima]

The talisman I have in mind for If at first you don't succeed is "save 100% with 6 builders". Actually, it's not hard to tweak your solution so that it satisfies both conditions

At the moment, the voting regarding number of talismans is very evenly spread, so unless the situation dramatically changes, we will be going for a middle option (which means prohibiting multiple talismans per level, since there are plenty of good ideas for talismans without doubling up).

[Proxima]

Okay, the votes are almost a perfect even spread, so we'll try to be somewhat selective about the talismans we include, and we won't have multiple talismans per level; but we won't cut down to a small number either.

The next question to answer -- and I'll ask this informally rather than as a poll for now, although I'll put up a poll if necessary -- is should we aim to have roughly equal numbers of bronze, silver and gold talismans, or should we rate each one individually regardless of where that gets us?

I think the most interesting talismans are those that require a substantially different solution from the solutions one would be likely to come up with when solving a level normally, so I'll look through the lists of suggestions so far, note the ones that are most interesting and will certainly go in; then we can haggle about the rest (In some cases, I'll note that we should definitely have a talisman for a given level, but two or more have been suggested, so we'll have to pick one.)

Definite talismans (click to show/hide)

A Beast of a level: Save 100% with 2 of each skill
Lemmings in the attic: Solve with no builders
The Crankshaft: Save 100% with no builders
Turn around, young lemmings: Save 100%

A Spot of Bother: Save 100% with no builders
DON'T PANIC: Save 100%
Perseverance: Either solve with no diggers, or solve in 30 seconds
Cascade: Save 100%

LEMTRIS: Either solve with no bashers, or save 100% with no builders. (Is 100% with no bashers possible?)
Flow Control: Save 14/21 or more
KEEP ON TRUCKING: Save 100%
Postcard from Lemmingland: Solve with no floater
ONWARD AND UPWARD: Save 37/40
Come on over to my place: Solve with 1 builder
Have a nice day: Solve with 5 builders
Across the Gap: Solve with 1 builder
I have a cunning plan: Solve with no builders
ROCKY ROAD: Save 100%

The Lemming Funhouse: Save 100%
If at first you don't succeed...: Either save 100% with 1 basher, or save 100% with 6 builders
Upside-down World: Save 100%

It's hero time: Solve with no climber
Which one are you trying to get?: Solve with no floaters
(Water processing plant: Save 100% -- not confirmed in NL yet)
Creature Discomforts: Save 100%
Scaling the Heights: Save 100%
The Steel Mines of Kessel: Solve with no blockers
The Great Lemming Caper: Solve with no blockers
Final impediment: Solve with no bashers or diggers

That's already 30, so I think we should be pretty selective about increasing the list beyond that. Are there any (either suggested so far, or new ones) that anyone feels particularly strongly should get onto the list?

[namida]

FWIW, my usual practice with larger packs is about a 50-30-20 split between Bronze / Silver / Gold respectively. I also usually judge the difficulty (when picking a color) of them relative to the level's difficulty, not relative to the overall game's difficulty.

[Proxima]

Should have done this earlier. To help those who want to give feedback on the talismans, here's a list of those suggested so far that are not on my "definite" list, with a few comments:

Possible talismans (click to show/hide)

Get a little extra help: 100% with only builders
Very similar to "Where do you see lemmings?" 100% only builders and "One way or another" only builders, so I'd include at most one of these. Also similar to the "Final impediment" talisman, which is on the definite list.

Downwardly mobile Lemmings: Solve with 1 skill
Very easy. I thought it might be nice to include this just to show off the fact that it can be done, but it's not really worth including.

Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming: 100% with no destructive skills
An attempt at getting the challenge for the repeat level, "Tribute to M. C. Escher", to work on the earlier level. But if the condition is just "no destructive skills", it has several more solutions; if it's "builders and 1 floater only" then the condition is much more precise than any of our other talismans. Alternatively, we could have a much easier talisman for this level: 100% with no builders.

Lemming toast: Solve in 1 minute
Pretty easy. Not sure if it's worth including.

Where do you see lemmings?: 100% with only builders
See comments on "Get a little extra help".

Let's be careful out there: Solve in 1 minute
An easy challenge that amounts to "Take any variant of the shortcut instead of the long way round". Overlaps with the talisman for the repeat, "Come on over to my place", which requires a particular variant of the shortcut. Might still be worth including. bsmith's alternative talisman for this level, lose-3 with 3 builders and 3 blockers, enforces the long way round and also some rather fiddly timing.

PoP YoR ToP: Save 100%
Pretty easy, so not a definite talisman. But we're a little short on easy ones, so I may well include this.

Plethora of Presents: Save 100%
Same as above.

Mutiny on the Bounty: Save 100%
I'm disinclined to include this, as I realised it doesn't require much beyond a normal solution to the level.

Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy: Skills to only one lemming
This talisman type won't be supported in new-formats NeoLemmix. I've asked Nepster and namida about this, and it's unlikely to be re-added, at least in the immediate future.

MENACING !!: Solve with 7 builders
Normal solution, with a bit of efficiency and use of the existing terrain in getting up to the exit.

Time waits for no lemming: Lose 2 with no floaters
Normal solution with a bit of crowd-timing. Could add this for an extra easy talisman.

[Proxima]

More thoughts on some of the proposed talismans. (I really hope at least one person has some feedback here, so I don't have to decide everything by myself....)

Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming: 100% no builders is not as trivial as I first thought*, so I think we'll go with this. The "Tribute to M. C. Escher" 100% solution is better-known, has been made into a custom level that enforces it, and would be rather out of place as a talisman on the easy version.

Perseverance: My suggestion (solve in 30 seconds) isn't very good, you can achieve this with a digger pit solution. bsmith's no diggers is better.

And then there were four: Could have a talisman for 100% in 2 minutes, pretty easy but does enforce multitasking.

LEMTRIS: 100% no bashers is possible, so we'll go with this.

If at first...: I slightly prefer bsmith's "1 basher" to my "6 builders", as the latter repeats the kind of thinking needed for "The Crankshaft".

Poles Apart: Overlooked this one, but 100% is a good talisman. Earlier in the thread, bsmith suggested a talisman for the ceiling route (not sure how you would enforce this -- fewer destructive skills?) but I'm not sure whether this is even possible in NL.

Water processing plant: I can't confirm 100% in NL, and I looked up a video and it seems to rely on solid sides in the Genesis version.



* Redux has 10 of each skill on this level, so you can't dig the whole block away.

[Proxima]

Again, apologies for the overlapping discussions. I've been looking at de-backrouting Everyone's a hard nut, which as far as I know is the only level remaining that needs de-backrouting work.

Here are a couple of possibilities:

Version 1: Added steel to prevent the third lemming simply digging down. It's still possible to take an "all three lemmings on the bottom" route by turning the third lemming, having him build over to the top-left hatch, then building again to turn round. However, maybe this solution is discouraged enough in this version that we could leave it?

Version 1b: Same layout, but replace the miner with a basher to make it harder to turn the third lemming.

Version 2: Added more steel to completely seal off the third lemming. This definitely prevents the backroute, but it's rather drastic.

Any preferences, or other suggestions?

[bsmith]

Most of the items in the Definite list I have no issues with including; anything from that list I don't mention is good to go.

Perseverance: I much prefer the no digger talisman.

LEMTRIS: either one is good but we don't need both, I don't have a strong preference.

I have a cunning plan: I assume you put this one in for its pass-through blocker solution, easy but not obvious.

If at first you don't succeed: I prefer the one basher talisman for this one; as mentioned earlier this can be done with the 6 builder constraint added to it.  Since we are not fully de-backrouting Final Impediment, can I assume that a lightly modified version of If at first you don't succeed will be used - a piece steel under each pillar to stop the bash under everything to make the talisman worthwile.

The Great Lemming Caper: I assume you want to enforce the catch a climber solution.  No blockers still allows another solution.  The six skill assignments restriction you suggested earlier would (I think) enforce catching the climber, but in this case I recommend dropping the release rate so that the execution does not need to be pixel perfect.

Get a little extra help: The talisman idea was 100% with only 10 builders. I do think this is a nice one to include, not too builder heavy for being a builder only solution.

Downwardly mobile Lemmings: Nice idea but probably too easy to be worth including.

Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming: The talisman idea I had for this one is 100% with only 10 builders and 1 digger.  This should enforce a solution similar to M. C. Escher 100%.  Otherwise the no builders talisman is a good option since the skillset no longer has enough diggers to just go all A.T. on the block.

Lemming toast: Nice but too easy.  If we want a talisman for this level I suggest use only 1 builder.

Where do you see lemmings?: A 100% builders seems a lot more tedious, no I would rather not include this.

Let's be careful out there: We already have a fast-route talisman for the harder repeat.  I suggested the 3 blocker + 3 builder since it does enforce the long route.  If we do have a talisman for this level I think it should enforce the long route.  I like my idea and want to see it included but I do realize it is not a very exciting talisman.

PoP YoR ToP, Plethora of Presents, MENACING !!, Time waits for no lemming: All these are variations on the regular solutions.  These seem like things to look at if we decide the other choices don't make the list of talismans long enough.

Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy: I thought this was a good idea, bit if the engine will no longer support it then there is really no way to include this one.

And then there were four: I was thinking about this one too, the needed multitasking may make it worth a talisman.

Poles Apart: I think the ceiling route relied on direct drop, which was taken out of Neolemmix a while back.  Otherwise 100% seems like a good talisman.

Water processing plant: I don't think 100% is possible in Neolemmix.

[Proxima]

Thanks for the feedback So, I propose the following:

* Adopt all the talismans on my "definite" list, except Water processing plant. I miscounted in my original post, so that's 28.
* For levels where I listed alternatives: choose "no diggers" for Perseverance, "100% no bashers" for LEMTRIS, "100% 1 basher" for If at first you don't succeed, "no blockers" for The Great Lemming Caper. (The alternative "6 skills total" doesn't enforce the "catch a climber" solution, and in fact still allows a relatively trivial variant of the blocker solution. So I prefer "no blockers", which does allow multiple solutions, but is more interesting than the blocker solution.)
* From the "possible" list, adopt "100% 10 builders" for Get a little extra help, "100% no builders" for Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming, "100% 2 minutes" for And then there were four, and "100%" for Poles Apart.

This gives us 32 talismans, a nice number to have given that there are 32 levels per rank.

* * *

We then need to choose which to make bronze, silver and gold. Looking through the list, I think the hardest talismans relative to a normal solution -- and thus the most worthy of being gold -- are these:

Cascade: Save 100%
Flow Control: Save at least 14/21
Come on over to my place: Solve with 1 builder
Creature Discomforts: Save 100%
The Steel Mines of Kessel: Solve with no blockers

Some others that, to me, are borderline between silver and gold:

ONWARD AND UPWARD: Save 37/40
Have a nice day: Solve with 5 builders
ROCKY ROAD: Save 100%
It's hero time: Solve with no climber
The Great Lemming Caper: Solve with no blockers
Final impediment: Solve with no bashers or diggers

Quite a hard choice What about everyone else, which ones would you select?