Tribes/Sports/Ceci n'est pas une pipe

[Deni]

I just got an Amiga emulator for my PC -- Yay! -- and I'm starting through the Lemmings 2: The Tribes again. I remember having a heck of a time with this level -- Ceci n'est pas une pipe -- the first time around and I don't know if I ever got the gold standard even then.

I konw the solution is to flame-throw, bomb, flame-throw, flame-throw. The places are really obvious because it's the only place where the lemmings are actually walking around so you can do something. I also know that you will lose 3 lemmings on the level.

I lose four every time. Three go squish after the bombing place, which I think are the three you are intended to lose. But the first lemming -- the one with the bomb -- always bounces too far and gets caught in a holding area off to the left on the pipe just after the bomb area. So I end up with three squished and one caught. I have to nuke to end the level or wait for the time to run out. All I can get is silver.

I've tried doing some different things to slow them down before they accumulate at the bomb place, but nothing seems to work. Actually, the only one that really does slow them down is to use the second lemming for the first flame throw from a further distance. It made no difference in the outcome, though.

Am I the only one this happens to? Does anyone have any suggestions?

[Isu]

I remember getting golds on all tribes on the Amiga version about two years ago so therefore I must've done it. In the place you need to use a bomber try bombing in different places in the pit. If that doesn't work, try waiting for all the lemmings to reach the pit before using the bomber. If I could get my Amiga emulator working I might be able to give you a more detailed explanation, however you'll have to make do with this for the moment.

And welcome to the forums Deni 8)

[Proxima]

How very odd. I looked up the level for you on GameFAQs, and it gives a solution that doesn't lose any lemmings, but comparing it with The Lemmings Solution, it seems that the skills are different. Maybe it's a different version of the game?

The Lemmings Solution only says: "When the first lemming stands up in the pit on the right, give him a bomb." Don't know if that will help.....

[guest]

The one from GameFAQs is for the Sega Megadrive/Genesis version of the game, in which the level in question is replaced with a different one.  (Probably because by then the level designers realized they kinda screwed up the original level by making it harder than expected to get gold.)

I don't have the Amiga version but the PC version is fairly similar, but probably not identical in details.  In the PC version if you bomb at a very specific (down to the pixel) place you can actually save 58 out of 60.  My advice, based on the PC version, is try bombing more towards the right.  Yes, this means you actually wait for the lemming to get up, turn around on the left so he faces right, walk towards the right, before you bomb, but in the PC version that actually helps.  Don't know if it works on the Amiga.

If all else fails, just try various positions to do the bombing at, that's pretty much the only variable that matters on this level.

[guest]

Incidentally, if you give some info on where to find a suitable Amiga emulator and where to download the Amiga version of the game off the Internet, I might try out the level on the emulator and see how I do on it.

It seems all the solutions on the Internet for the Amiga version advises you to bomb immediately.  I couldn't even get that to work on the PC though since I haven't figured out what keys to use the feature where you can lock onto a particular lemming (if that even works at all on the PC version), and without that feature it keeps trying to assign the bomber to the second lemming who just fell down and "ow" itself (which of course doesn't work since you can't assign bombers to lemmings that are still flat on their backs "ow"-ing) at the same place where the first lemming stands up.  Maybe the timing is different on  the Amiga.

[DragonsLover]

Yep! You have to bomb the lemming at the right side in the hole!

[guest]

Ok, I finally got Lemmings 2 for Amiga and got it working on the emulator.

Unfortunately, the timing is indeed different enough on the Amiga that my tip from the DOS version doesn't seem to apply well to the Amiga version.  On the other hand, a trick that didn't work well on the DOS version seems to work better on the Amiga, so you could try this:

Instead of having the first lemming flame throw, have the lemming behind him (ie. the second lemming out) do the flame throwing instead.  The flame will reach far enough to break thru the pipe in time for the first lemming to pass thru.  This also creates a nice gap between the first lemming and the rest of the gang.

With that, if you now immediately bomb the first lemming after he gets up at you know where, you should now be able to save 57 (one will bounce into the wrong place and 2 will splat in the following trampoline).

-------------------

On a side note, it seems that the Amiga version has a timing bug (at least when I'm using the emulator, I don't have a real Amiga to verify) when you use the restart feature (and I thought Cheapo was the only buggy Lemmings clone).  As you know (or should know), in the Amiga (as well as I'm sure the DOS and Mac versions), you can press ESC to directly restart the level you're on without going thru the menu screens.  But doing that on the Amiga seems to alter the timing of entrance of the first lemming sufficiently enough that, on this level you can immediately see a difference on the third trampoline (the one you reach after the first use of flame thrower), if you do the normal way of having the first lemming flame-throw.  Without restart both the first and second lemming bounces off the trampoline in question, but with the restart, the second lemming "misses" the trampoline (the trampoline is still "in use" at that point by the first lemming).

This glitch conceivably can be used to your advantage to possibly get a higher score but I haven't actually gotten higher than 57 yet, and rumor has it that no one was able to get more than 57 on the Amiga version.

[guest]

With that, if you now immediately bomb the first lemming after he gets up at you know where

I tried it again, and actually it isn't quite "immediately", for best results you actually want him to bomb after he walked maybe 1-2 pixels after getting up.

Basically, if done right, the bomb explosion will blow lemmings 2 and 3 off to the right.  They will be the ones who eventually splat on the trampoline I believe.  Lemmings 1 the bomber will bounce off to the wrong area.

[guest]

After spending an eternity again with the Amiga version of this level, I finally managed to get 58 out of 60 on it too.  But it seems very difficult to get the solution to work consistently, maybe because it's very timing sensitive.  (At least I'm hoping it's not an emulation issue!)

Doubt anyone cares, but if interested e-mail guestlevels(at)yahoo(dot com) for details.

[Deni]

Wow! What a nice response. Some definite things to try. I'll give that ESC trick a try. I don't know if I ever knew about it. Also the "wait until he gets to the right" option. And the "wait until he walks a pixel or two." It beats doing the same thing over and over with the same bad result. Isn't that the definition of insanity!?!  :mikelaugh:

I got the Amiga emulator at http://www.amigaforever.com/ for $29.95. I got the Lemmings software (Lemmings 1, ONML and the Tribes) at http://amigos.amiga.hu/ancientoys/index2.html

I had a lot of trouble getting the games to run at first. I finally got the WHDload versions and just placed the resulting directories (after the .lzx decompression) into the Work directory of the Amiga emulator. Takes a bit of navigation to get to the directory, but after that, it's all on the hard drive. I also installed WHDLoad, which is available at the Ancient Toys site, as well as the .lzx decompressor. (I did pay the shareware fee for WHDLoad, which is just $20, so I could eliminate the nag screen every time I started a game.)

I "left out" my Lemmings icons on the workbench so all I have to do is double-click the icons to play any of the games.

[Deni]

I got it!!

That's what I get for listening to the so-called "experts." I thought I was somehow bombing too slowly, although I couldn't figure out how to do it any faster. When I waited for the lem to move to the left just a tad, and then bomb, I still ended up with three squished, but the first one didn't end up in never-never land.

Maybe I could come up with 58 survivors, but 57 gives me the gold, so I'm happy. Moving on.

It's so fun to have these now. I vaguely remember some of the puzzles, but not most of them. It's been 8 years, probably, since I saw them. Sorta like running into an old friend.  

[guest]

Hi, I think I confused you with my numerous responses.

Because of timing differences between the Amiga and PC version, some of my earlier recommendations based on the PC version is not really valid for the Amiga.

So to be clear:  for the Amiga, based on my experience, I'd say the key thing to try is to have the second lemming flame-blast the pipe for the first lemming in front, at the place where you use the first flame-thrower.  That way, the second lemming gets more separated from the first lemming (in other words, the first lemming reaches the pit earlier relative to the rest of the lemmings).  This minimizes the number of lemmings in the pit when the bomb explodes, which in turn gives you a better chance of having more survivors.

But it's still not a guarantee, where and when you do the bombing still matters unfortunately.  My current recommendation would be, after following the above advice, to "wait for first lemming to walk a step or two after he gets up, then bomb".  In case you're wondering, the 58/60 solution is basically more or less the same, except you need to be super-precise in the timing and position of the bombing.

Basically it was not a very well designed level, that the first level in a tribes would have a solution that can be so unstable, and a gold medal requirement so strigent.  No wonder they took out that level when they start porting to console systems.  So, good luck!  

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I never owned an Amiga, so regrettably, I just found illegal versions of the various required software on the Internet.  Fortunately Lemmings 2 can be run directly from floppy and the floppy diskfiles can be downloaded from the same site you got the WHDLoad install of the game.  So all I needed was the illegally obtained Kickstart ROM and then I was good to go.  Yeah, I'm a bad boy.  

[guest]

LOL I think we posted at the same time.  Well, looks like you weren't confused after all!  

Good luck with the rest of the game!

[DragonsLover]

This is funny that this level use a little bit of "French". But, in fact, "pipe" in french should be "tuyau". So, it should be: "Ceci n'est pas un tuyau". But it doesn't matter anyway!

[AstralLemming]

I've also heard that on one platform(don't know which one though) there are two sports levels with the name 'Ceci n'est pas une pipe'.

[guest]

Yep, the SNES version misnamed Sports #5 ["Blown Back"] as a second "Ceci n'est pas une pipe".

[Proxima]

I checked a French dictionary, and "tuyau" is the word for a water pipe, but "pipe" is the word for a smoking pipe.

The title refers to Magritte's pipe pictures, which are of a smoking pipe -- so I guess the level designers were making a joke that works in English because we have the same word for both, but they didn't realise it doesn't work in French.

(Or maybe it's a deliberate double joke -- because a water pipe really is not "une pipe"!)

[DragonsLover]

Yep! You're right!

But under Altavista, if I type "tuyau" and I translate it in english, it gives "pipe".

Arf... anyway, it doesn't matter!

[guest]

Well, thanks for the quick lesson in French.  B)

Before this, I did once try Babelfishing the title as a phrase but got back "This is not a pipe".  Which had been very confusing until you guys pointed out the two kinds of "pipes" in English.

[Proxima]

Well, Magritte has these pictures of a pipe (the smoking sort) with the caption "Ceci n'est pas une pipe". So you would  be equally confused by that, but the point (in so far as there is one) is that it really isn't a pipe -- it's a picture of a pipe. A similar thing applies to the level......

[guest]

Cool, a lesson on French and another on art!

[Proxima]

Heh.

It was a lesson for me too though.... I'd seen the picture of that level several times and it never occurred to me that "pipe" isn't the correct word for a water pipe.

[Isu]

If I could get my Amiga emulator working I might be able to give you a more detailed explanation

Yaaay! I got WinUAE to work using roms found on that site. See, the roms I had weren't actually proper roms :x

P.S I'm now working on recreating the classic tribe in cheapo. (Since DragonsLover doesn't seem to care anymore (no offense ))

Edit: Did I say classic? I meant sports! )

[DragonsLover]

(Since DragonsLover doesn't seem to care anymore (no offense ))

About what? ::
And did you pay to get WinUAE to run? Because, it requires Kickstart Roms and those are impossible to find because they're illegal to download.

[guest]

And did you pay to get WinUAE to run? Because, it requires Kickstart Roms and those are impossible to find because they're illegal to download.

Nothing is impossible to find on the 'net, if you look hard enough.......

[Isu]

About what? ::

X_X Were you not recreating the tribes sets in cheapo?
I'm sorry if it wasn't you ,but I'm darned sure that someone else here was.

In answer to your second point; I honestly can't remember where I got the Kickstart rom from, but if I could, I wouldnt tell you

[guest]

X_X Were you not recreating the tribes sets in cheapo?
I'm sorry if it wasn't you ,but I'm darned sure that someone else here was.

Well, a board-wide forum search over the last 300 days with the words "tribe" and "cheapo" comes up with no posts about re-creations (excluding these few posts we made), so looks like that "someone else" can only be found in your head.  

[Mindless]

and God said, "Let there be Kickstart." ... and there were ROMs
http://www.google.com/search?q=inurl%3Akick13.rom

[DragonsLover]

X_X Were you not recreating the tribes sets in cheapo?
I'm sorry if it wasn't you ,but I'm darned sure that someone else here was.

Ok, yeah. It was me!

But unfortunately, I can't play and edit anything anymore for now because I changed place! I'm in Montreal now and I haven't my father's computer. I'll be back editing musics and levels in one year and sometimes I'll go back at home too. I'm studying in Level Designing in video games.

[guest]

But unfortunately, I can't play and edit anything anymore for now because I changed place! I'm in Montreal now and I haven't my father's computer. I'll be back editing musics and levels in one year and sometimes I'll go back at home too. I'm studying in Level Designing in video games.

At the risk of being a little insensitive......

Isn't it time to consider getting your own computer?

Just a thought.  I understand it may not be a viable option at this point.

[DragonsLover]

Isn't it time to consider getting your own computer?

Need cash $$$! I'm waiting to work at UbiSoft and get enough money to.

[Isu]

It looks as though there could be a backroute to this level which saves more than 58, I'm looking into it...

UPDATE: I managed to save 54 using the backroute, I think you'll need pixel-perfectness in order to save any more...