Author Topic: Backroute remakes (Read 16824 times)

Proxima · « **on:** May 06, 2005, 01:24:02 PM »

The backroute remakes set is finished at last! Download it here:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/backroutes.zip

If you haven't got the Lemmus style files, which are needed for all the levels in this set, you can download them here:

http://www.geocities.com/zarathustra47/Lemmus.zip

- - -

I'd better introduce the set, since even those of you who do know what I'm talking about probably aren't aware of all the details. The set consists of remakes of levels from standard Lemmings, ONML, and Genesis version Lemmings; the levels have all been selected (with one exception, which I explain on that level's intro screen) because they have backroutes.

I'm defining a backroute as a route that's easier in some way than the standard solution -- most often easier to execute, occasionally about as hard but using much fewer skills on a level that's clearly meant to need the exact number given. It doesn't have to be easier to find; some of these are very little known, which is one of my purposes in creating this set, to bring to people's attention the surprising number of solutions there are on some levels.

So, the remakes in the first half of the set have been altered in some way (extra objects, reduced skills, reduced time, just occasionally a more drastic alteration) to eliminate the backroute. Then in the second half you have the same levels again, but altered in a different way to force the backroute. So to complete the set you have to find both a main solution and a backroute; and I warn you, some of them are not easy to find.

I wouldn't be surprised, though, if some of you managed to find further backroutes (or additional ones created by the changes made to eliminate the old ones) lurking in there somewhere. I'm pretty sure about having eliminated the main solutions in the second half, but maybe you'll be able to find a couple of places where I haven't. Please let me know -- and don't hesitate to ask for hints if you need them!

Above all, enjoy!!! B)

Proxima · « **Reply #1 on:** May 06, 2005, 02:15:07 PM »

A couple of quick words. It appears that not all versions of Lemmings allow the lemmings to fall safely into the exit from any height, as Cheapo does. However, in my set the only backroutes that require direct drop to work are in the Genesis levels, and Genesis Lemmings is one of the versions that does allow it.

Cheapo is a bit slower than other versions of the game, so on some levels (especially those where the time is tight) I've had to extend the time limit a little bit. (ISU complained that one of my solutions to "If at first you don't succeed" runs out of time; however, you have enough time for it on the original game, so you should on the remake too.) I've given an extra minute on "If at first...." and "Introducing Superlemming" and an extra 20 seconds on "It's hero time". This shouldn't allow any solutions that are impossible in the main game.

Incidentally, another game mechanics difference is reponsible for the absence of "Electric circuit" (Genesis version 17 Present). In that level, there are a few places where the wires cross as an X and because they are only one pixel thick the lemmings walk down the wire on the other side. In Cheapo, they will always walk up (it's the same as the infamous problem with the chain piece in the ONML brick style) -- and this completely ruins the very clever level layout.

And I'd like to thank Adam, ISU and guest for all their help with this set!

Shvegait · « **Reply #2 on:** May 06, 2005, 02:37:24 PM »

Quote

This is because I couldn't get Cheapo to make the three windows work in the correct order

Surely you can. What is the correct order? If it involves the second window dropping a lemming every other time, then just make four windows.

Proxima · « **Reply #3 on:** May 06, 2005, 03:06:05 PM »

It's not that (since there are only 3 lemmings); just that Cheapo seems to insist on putting the windows in a different order from the one I specify.

Fortunately I managed to fix the problem by dragging the windows to each other's locations. The revised set is up now.

Thanks!

guest · « **Reply #4 on:** May 06, 2005, 03:47:17 PM »

Backroute still exists on "That's a Good Level" (how ironic). It's still possible and quite easy to save 49/50. Or is that irrelevant/intended?

Easy to fix though.

Proxima · « **Reply #5 on:** May 06, 2005, 03:58:37 PM »

FIXED. (Same link.)

Bother, I really can't explain how that happened; I was sure I'd tested it thoroughly to make sure that route was impossible. Ah well, everyone makes mistakes.

Proxima · « **Reply #6 on:** May 07, 2005, 10:40:05 AM »

I've fixed an unwanted solution on Level 16 (the second 1 Taxing remake) and made some small graphics fixes on a couple of levels. Same link.

Also, hints and outline solutions for the set are now available at http://www.geocities.com/zarathustra47/Backroutes.html

Isu · « **Reply #7 on:** May 07, 2005, 11:35:33 AM »

I thought I would tell you of the solutions I found that isn't in the outline solutions on that site you linked to:

2. Izzie Wizzie Lemmings get busy
Same as walkthru only I didn't use a splatform. I dug the lemming down until one pixel remained on the third brick, then built three tiles. The lemmings should survive the fall. I'd show you a screenshot but Geocites wont let me login. :-(

7. Dolly Dimple.
Still possible by digging the left wall and bombing the digger after he starts building.

8. The Great Lemming Caper
I can't find the route to this one because the level just doesn't work for me.

13. Introducing Superlemming
I was looking forward to playing this level since I never actually played it before. The Playstation and Windows version doesn't have it. And they're the only versions of Oh No! that I've played. I could've got the DOS version of Oh No! but it was too much hassle and I just simply couldn't be bothered. No different routes though.

guest · « **Reply #8 on:** May 07, 2005, 12:03:25 PM »

Quote from: Isu link=1115385843/0#7 date=1115465733

2. Izzie Wizzie Lemmings get busy
Same as walkthru only I didn't use a splatform. I dug the lemming down until one pixel remained on the third brick, then built three tiles.

Oooh, that is clever. Both Ahribar and I missed that one.

Here's the screenshot. (Don't look if you want to figure it out for youself.)

Fortunately this should be easily fixable by moving the fourth platform further to the right, so that you have to dig near the right edge of the third platform to actually land.

I also found the same backroute Isu did for Dolly Dimple. I'll need to get back to you regarding a fix. As for the other levels I haven't dealt with them yet, except for "Caper" which works for me. (Perhaps ISU is missing a style file?)

guest · « **Reply #9 on:** May 07, 2005, 12:22:16 PM »

Quote from: guest link=1115385843/0#8 date=1115467405

Fortunately this should be easily fixable by moving the fourth platform further to the right, so that you have to dig near the right edge of the third platform to actually land.

Oops, that still doesn't quite do it. Because you can just stretch your bridge further out to the right brick by brick, until it protrudes out under the right edge of the platform in question.

It looks like a more drastic change is required. Your best option appears to be to shorten that bottom layer of bricks in each platform. Currently it is 2 bricks in length. Make it 1 brick in length plus a slight bit more, just barely enough so it still connects with the other portion of a platform. You might want to playtest this change to make sure that you can't stretch your build out far enough without also getting too high.

guest · « **Reply #10 on:** May 07, 2005, 12:38:02 PM »

As for fixing Dolly Dimple, currently I'm leaning towards making the walls of the holding pan much higher, almost nearly to the ceiling. The hope is that by making it high enough, it would be impossible for you to break the fall twice: either the fall from the top of the wall to the bottom of the wall is too high, or else the fall from the bottom of the dig to the ground below is too high.

Basically, you need the distance from the highest point of the ground to the top of the wall to be more than twice the max safe-fall distance. Hopefully this will still fit on one screen, though I suppose it's not a sin to extend the level's height slightly to accomodate if necessary. The time limit might also need to be changed if that's an issue.

guest · « **Reply #11 on:** May 07, 2005, 01:35:39 PM »

Really just a minor gripe, but:

The terrain setup in either version of "If At First You Don't Succeed..." isn't quite accurate. In particular, at the part where you need to build to avoid going down into the rope trap, on both the SNES and DOS versions of the game it takes 2 builds, whereas in your Cheapo remake only 1 build is necessary. (DOS screenshot)

It really isn't a big deal, since as far as I can tell there is at least one spare builder in all known solutions anyway even when played on the original level, so this is really just a matter of "historic accuracy" so to speak.

On a more important note, I should mention that the solution I have for the no-backroute remake of Taxing 1, I did use one climber but no floaters nor blockers. I did use up all bashers and miners though. I haven't checked your hints/solutions yet; does what I do sound like it might be a backroute?

guest · « **Reply #12 on:** May 07, 2005, 01:45:34 PM »

I just noticed I skipped a post Ahribar made about certain graphics fixes and a fix on level 16, so I was about to redownload the set just to make sure.

But to my chagrin, the file I have just downloaded from the link is now corrupted! Every time I try to open the .ZIP file it complains that the file is corrupted.

So could you please re-upload a good copy?

Proxima · « **Reply #13 on:** May 07, 2005, 06:58:54 PM »

OK, I'll try...... tell me if it still doesn't work.

As it happens, I did already fix the flaw you mentioned on "If at first you don't succeed". From your description of your route, I'd say you've just found what I consider to be the main solution -- i.e. the simplest non-backroute.

ISU and guest: thanks for finding those extra solutions. I'll have a think about fixing them soon. As for some levels not working, maybe you have an old version of the style? (Both levels you mention use musics later on in the style, so they might not have been in older versions.) Redownload the styles here and see if it helps: http://www.geocities.com/zarathustra47/Lemmus.zip

EDIT: damn, for some reason it doesn't seem to have worked, and I don't know how to fix it....... I'll e-mail you both a good copy, and maybe one of you could put it up for download?

EDIT 2: I've fixed the levels mentioned, and also "Everyone's a hard nut", and e-mailed the revised set. Hope we do manage to work out some way to make it available; if not, anyone else who wants it can just e-mail me!

EDIT 3: edited the hints and solutions page, with Isu's second solution to "Izzie Wizzie" (it's still available as a backroute on the second remake), and with more solutions to "Come on over to my place" which I somehow forgot to write up before.

guest · « **Reply #14 on:** May 07, 2005, 11:53:33 PM »

Ok, I've temporarily make a good zip file available here:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/backroutes.zip

Although Ahribar, you might be able to fix it if you try this:

1) in Yahoo Geocities File Manager, rename your current copy of the zip file to something else, say "badbackroutes.zip" or something.

2) then try uploading a good copy of backroutes.zip again. So now you end up with both a badbackroutes.zip and the actual, new backroutes.zip

The theory is that maybe it so happens that the disk location on Yahoo's servers where backroutes.zip is stored right now happened to be corrupted. As a result even if you try reuploading it, the file will keep going to the same bad location on that disk. By renaming the original copy first and then upload the new copy again, hopefully the new copy will end up in a different disk location. Moreover, it still allows you to refer to the new file via the old link.

Isu · « **Reply #15 on:** May 08, 2005, 11:16:25 AM »

Thanks, I must have had 'Out-of-date' Lemmus files.

I managed to pass 'The Great Lemming Caper' and it's repeat the same way, is that right?

Proxima · « **Reply #16 on:** May 08, 2005, 11:40:30 AM »

Can't be. What was your route?

guest · « **Reply #17 on:** May 08, 2005, 11:45:36 AM »

Funny ISU pointed that out. Although I didn't quite use the exact same way on both, now I looked back I realize the way I did the "Escapade" one works just as well for the "Caper".

Maybe you should consider removing the floater?

guest · « **Reply #18 on:** May 08, 2005, 12:35:37 PM »

It is a known and uninteresting fact that Acrophobia can be solved with 100% saved without any direct-drop shenanigans, correct?

Proxima · « **Reply #19 on:** May 08, 2005, 12:45:20 PM »

Ah, the floater -- of course! Thanks for pointing that out........

I think I know your second 100% solution to Acrophobia -- does it involve building on the steps of one pyramid to make an unclimbable step? The question is just then whether that ought to be removed or not...... come to think of it, probably it should. Not difficult to do though.

I've updated the solutions page with yet another route on "If at first...". guest: did your route (allowing for the fact that the gap at the end has been enlarged to need two builders) use seven builders and a digger, or eight builders but no digger? If it used less than that it might be a backroute........

And to bring the number of solutions found to the original level up to eight, the same as "It's hero time", here's one that doesn't work on the Cheapo remake because the pillars are too far apart:

Send two atheletes over the first pillar. A1 bashes the second, A2 is turned round in the bash tunnel, and builds to the first pillar to the right point to mine to collect the crowd. A1 climbs the third pillar and builds to the exit. Release the crowd by bashing the third pillar.

- - -

EDIT: I have managed a floater solution on "Caper", but could you give me your _exact_ solution? I need to test it against the original game to check whether it _should_ be possible; maybe I need to lower the window instead.

guest · « **Reply #20 on:** May 08, 2005, 01:01:56 PM »

Quote from: Ahribar link=1115385843/15#19 date=1115556320

I think I know your second 100% solution to Acrophobia -- does it involve building on the steps of one pyramid to make an unclimbable step?

Yep, you got it. Though in case you are wondering, I did not apply the technique near the entrance area, as that would probably end up using more builders than I'd like. (Though conceivably that could work too, I don't know.)

Quote

"If at first...". guest: did your route (allowing for the fact that the gap at the end has been enlarged to need two builders) use seven builders and a digger, or eight builders but no digger? If it used less than that it might be a backroute........

7 builders and a miner actually. I didn't use diggers.

Quote

EDIT: I have managed a floater solution on "Caper", but could you give me your _exact_ solution? I need to test it against the original game to check whether it _should_ be possible; maybe I need to lower the window instead.

I'll e-mail.

Proxima · « **Reply #21 on:** May 08, 2005, 01:03:19 PM »

OK, and thanks! Could you include your "If at first...." solution as well, since it seems to be one I don't have yet?

guest · « **Reply #22 on:** May 08, 2005, 01:07:33 PM »

As for "Everyone is a Hard Nut", my solution doesn't seem to be any of the 3 you listed, although it seems closest to your 3rd solution mentioned on the website.

The thing of note though is that with my solution, everyone ends up taking basically the same, lower path to the exit. There is no fuzzing with the one-way wall or any of the traps. It does use up pretty much all the skills though.

guest · « **Reply #23 on:** May 08, 2005, 01:11:17 PM »

Quote from: guest link=1115385843/15#20 date=1115557316

7 builders and a miner actually. &#A0;I didn't use diggers.

Sorry, miscount. It's 2 miners not one.

Still want me to e-mail?

Proxima · « **Reply #24 on:** May 08, 2005, 01:13:33 PM »

Yes, please e-mail that and your "Everyone's a hard nut" solution, I'd like to know as many solutions as possible even if they're not backroutes.

I've fixed Acrophobia, btw. That solution doesn't matter on the first version (it's a nice touch that you can get 100%) but I do want the second to force the direct-drop backroute. I fixed it with metal blocks on the corners -- I can't see how it could be possible to do it with 100% other than by the backroute now.

(I'll send you the revised set as soon as I've finished with the other levels you've raised problems with.)

EDIT: OK, "Caper" is fixed as well now. Still not sure how I'm going to fix "If at first...." or "Dolly Dimple". And you didn't send your "Everyone's a hard nut" solution........

(I've also added another "Caper" solution to the outline solutions file.)

Isu · « **Reply #25 on:** May 08, 2005, 01:47:03 PM »

Quote from: guest link=1115385843/15#17 date=1115552736

Maybe you should consider removing the floater?

Yeah

guest · « **Reply #26 on:** May 08, 2005, 03:06:45 PM »

I don't seem to see any difference between the two versions of "Everyone's a Hard Nut" in the set. Other than the number of builders and climbers.

I probably just missed it, since I kinda ignored like 2/3 of the level. Anyone care to point out where the differences are?

guest · « **Reply #27 on:** May 08, 2005, 03:36:47 PM »

"Try Anything Once": Has anyone tried this: don't use the climber. (Still saves only 49/50 though.)

guest · « **Reply #28 on:** May 08, 2005, 03:58:19 PM »

Quote from: guest link=1115385843/15#26 date=1115564805

I don't seem to see any difference between the two versions of "Everyone's a Hard Nut" in the set. &#A0;Other than the number of builders and climbers.

Never mind, with the level preview, I see some steel was added for one version.

Proxima · « **Reply #29 on:** May 08, 2005, 06:24:40 PM »

Yes -- the first time I passed "Try anything once" on the original level it was without the climber.

guest · « **Reply #30 on:** May 08, 2005, 11:01:38 PM »

Ok, I did "Let's Go Camping" without touching the tent (ie. everyone took an upper route), though it is probably less obvious enough to not count as a backroute. (I believe it ends up using exactly the same number and types of skills as the intended solution.)

It is trivial to fix though.

guest · « **Reply #31 on:** May 08, 2005, 11:36:17 PM »

Quote from: Ahribar link=1115385843/15#29 date=1115576680

Yes -- the first time I passed "Try anything once" on the original level it was without the climber.

Perhaps I wasn't entirely clear. I was talking about your version of "Try anything once".

guest · « **Reply #32 on:** May 09, 2005, 12:44:21 AM »

Ok, it looks like the standard intended solution actually can be done without the climber too, due to the number of builders available.

So what I was really getting at was that I have solutions for that level that doesn't involve going all the way to that bent pillar on the right. Though you do need to at least get up to the top.

guest · « **Reply #33 on:** May 09, 2005, 01:09:49 AM »

Quote from: guest link=1115385843/30#32 date=1115599461

So what I was really getting at was that I have solutions for that level that doesn't involve going all the way to that bent pillar on the right. &#A0;Though you do need to at least get up to the top.

Ok, now I have a solution which not only doesn't go all the way to the bent pillar, you don't even need to get up to the top (ie. the long row of steel blocks). This one you probably want to eliminate since it uses what's clearly a Cheapo glitch. Fortunately it should be trivial to eliminate.

Proxima · « **Reply #34 on:** May 09, 2005, 11:08:14 AM »

OK, all the problems found so far have been fixed and I've sent the revised set to guest, so it should be available as soon as he manages to upload it.

You never did tell me your route on "Let's go camping"?

guest · « **Reply #35 on:** May 09, 2005, 11:47:41 AM »

Set uploaded at same location

Incidentally, as another shot at trying to fix your uploading problem on your site, have you tried deleting the bad copy of backroutes.zip you had and then upload the new one? (You probably already tried that, but just want to be sure......)

Proxima · « **Reply #36 on:** May 09, 2005, 12:54:21 PM »

Thank you.

And yes, I tried that; no luck.

guest · « **Reply #37 on:** May 09, 2005, 01:36:11 PM »

Quote from: Ahribar link=1115385843/30#34 date=1115636894

You never did tell me your route on "Let's go camping"?

A little later tonight.

In fact, I have another, even better route to tell you. Remember back in "Lemmings Level List Game" you asked whether there's a route with all 3 going down? I found it. I even checked it against the real Genesis/Megadrive game (via emulator) and it works there.