Lemmings Forums Level Design Contest #7 (Playing Phase - Discussion Topic)

[namida]

This topic is for discussion of the levels, feedback, posting replays, etc. For creators wishing to post updates, or if you're looking for the latest updates, please check this topic instead.

Alright, so we didn't get so many entries this time - but nonetheless, we have some, so let's start playing!

All of the submissions in this contest are for NeoLemmix. The entries are:

<V3> "Quartic Egress" by bsmith
<V4> "Stonecrest Bay" by Crane
<V1> "The bURns of DrEAD" by GigaLem
<V1> "Lemmings in Unison" by IchoTolot

NOTES:
IchoTolot's level has a custom graphic set (you might already have this if you have the L2 / L3 Styles Pack) which is included in the download. It also has a custom music file; as this is a large file I have uploaded it seperately. If you do not wish to download the music file, you will need to modify the level file so that it does not use a custom track (set the music number to zero). These should be placed in the same folder as NeoCustLemmix (EDIT: Due to a bug, the music file needs to be placed in the same folder as the level file, rather than the same folder as NeoCustLemmix itself. This will be fixed in the V1.35n-D update. The graphic set should be placed in the same folder as NeoCustLemmix.)

The levels are attached in a zipped file. To play them in NeoCustLemmix, press F6 (load single level) on the title screen and select the level.


Update phase will end at whichever comes last - 9th Oct 2015 2:07 PM, or 72 hours since the last update.

As a reminder, the available prizes are:
- US $5.00
- One month's advertising on the forum's news ticker
- Your choice of rules for the next contest

Attachment updated 10/6/15 02:25 PM

[namida]

My thoughts:

bsmith's Quartic Egress (click to show/hide)

I'm pretty sure I backrouted this one; I didn't use most of the skills, and only used one exit (the closest one to the start).

Crane's Stonecrest Bay (click to show/hide)

Alright, I'm certian I backrouted this one. Similar reasons to the above.

GigaLem's The bURns of DrEAD (click to show/hide)

Wow, this is an excellent level! It's the only one so far in which I actually had to make use of multiple exits; with three of them being used in my solution, and the fourth one functioning somewhat like a trap. I probably could've beaten it with a simpler route had I noticed that the top-right entrance lemmings were climbers + floaters, but regardless, it's still a challenging level. This is definitely GigaLem's best contest entry level so far!

IchoTolot's Lemmings in Unison (click to show/hide)

Ooh, don't even know where to start on this one. A big downside I see here is that it's very hard to tell what is and isn't steel in this graphic set; this probably works well in L3 where it's specifically that game's workings, and you get used to it playing that; but for L1-type levels it's somewhat of a disadvantage. I will come back to this one later, though!

[IchoTolot]

My thoughts:

IchoTolot's Lemmings in Unison (click to show/hide)

Ooh, don't even know where to start on this one. A big downside I see here is that it's very hard to tell what is and isn't steel in this graphic set; this probably works well in L3 where it's specifically that game's workings, and you get used to it playing that; but for L1-type levels it's somewhat of a disadvantage. I will come back to this one later, though!

To aviod confusion:
As I mentioned in the tileset post:
Everything grey = steel
Everything green = normal terrain
exactly as it was in L3

[IchoTolot]

Ok, feedback time!

bsmith's Quartic Egress:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I think namida is wrong here with the backroute thing. In my opion the point of the level is to offer 4 different ways of solving: Easy ones and hard ones. So the whole thing is to try out all the exits and see how many Lemmings you can save there and for this thing this is a good level. I attached only one exit so far, but over the days and after a possible update (if namida's is right) I will try the other ones.

Crane's Stonecrest Bay:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's the same thing here! I prob choosed the easy one for my first attemd, but I think there are more difficult routes to the other ones (and maybe one where you can only save a percentage). A good and nice looking level so far (Will wait a bit here, too with attemds to other exits)

GigaLem's The Burns of Dread:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is a level made for me!   I love puzzeling through these! And now we have the other side: All (or nearly all) exits are used for the solution in the first place (as my my own entry).
It looks great and was definitly one of my favorite Giga levels so far!

I think it is important to differenciate between two styles in this contest:
1.) All (nearly all) exits are used in the main solution. (Giga and me)
2.) One (maybe two) exit is used during a solution at a time. So the level needs more solutions to be juged correctly. Otherwise you just look at the easy one and say *meh* (prob bsmith and Crane)

PS: Forgot to attach the solutions         Fixed now!

[Nepster]

bsmith's Quartic Egress (click to show/hide)

All exits have 100% solutions. The ones on the right are easy, the ones on the left slightly more difficult, though each needs some new thoughts.

Crane's Stonecrest Bay (click to show/hide)

Again one can use each exit for a 100% solution. As I always have some spare skills, my solutions might not be 100% intended (especially the beginning).

GigaLem's The bURns of DrEAD (click to show/hide)

Very good level, which needs quite some planning. The other levels are better looking, though. AnD i hATe thIs KiNd oF tITlE !

IchoTolot's Lemmings in Unison (click to show/hide)

I really don't know, whether to love or hate this level. On the one hand, the solution contains lots of excellent ideas. On the other hand it is such a HUGE level: I frequently got lost and had to search for my lost lemmings, had a few problems distinguishing steel/terrain/background (I haven't played L3 for years...) and tortured my spacebar due to the long periods when lemmings just had to walk around (ok, my solution is suboptimal in this respect, but even then...).

All levels played with NeoLemmix V1.35C.

[Crane]

Heh, okay, I laughed when you guys built to the side of the level - a few things I overlooked there in the design.  Hopefully version 2 fixes it.

[Crane]

I found another backroute in my own level and started crafting v3, also putting in some more aesthetics, but I'll wait for more results first in case I missed something else.

[namida]

I tried IchoTolot's level some more (didn't try the update to Crane's level yet). Didn't solve it yet, but I think I'm on the right track.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I don't know how much I need to change to actually solve it, but I have an idea of what to try next. If this does work, this level falls quite strongly into the "long and huge, but fairly easy" grouping. While there are certainly some cases where such a level is ideal, I don't know how I feel about it as a contest level personally. Of course, I could be wrong, and this level could be much more puzzling than I'm expecting so far.

Attached replay saves 3 of 4 lemmings; I wasn't able to save the floater due to both running out of platformers and timing issues.

[mobius]

I have two solutions for BSmith's level.

[bsmith]

My thoughts on the levels:

Crane's Stonecrest Bay

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Only one I've solved so far.  The terrain reminds me of some of the larger levels in the official game, Rendezvous at the Mountain and Hunt the Nessy in particular.

GigaLem's The bURns of DrEAD

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I can see some of the subgoals I need to accomplish.  I think the bigger challenge is the multiple entrances, rather than the exits.

IchoTolot's Lemmings in Unison

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This feels like four pathfinder levels fused into one big brain breaker!

[namida]

A closer attempt on IchoTolot's level.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It still falls one Platformer short of actually succeeding, due to those damn traps near one of the exits (didn't notice them before).

I've also found several other things that almost work. For example, one thing I tried is having the Glider (rather than the swimmer) cover the water just before the area where the lemmings split up again. With good timing, it's possible to ALMOST set it up so that no extra delay is needed, and the climber can create the landing platform for him. However, this fails by a matter of a few frames. In my opinion, while it's hard to avoid having one or two things that almost work but don't quite; this level has a lot of such scenarios, and this is really detrimental to its value as a contest level IMO.

[IchoTolot]

A closer attempt on IchoTolot's level.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It still falls one Platformer short of actually succeeding, due to those damn traps near one of the exits (didn't notice them before).

I've also found several other things that almost work. For example, one thing I tried is having the Glider (rather than the swimmer) cover the water just before the area where the lemmings split up again. With good timing, it's possible to ALMOST set it up so that no extra delay is needed, and the climber can create the landing platform for him. However, this fails by a matter of a few frames. In my opinion, while it's hard to avoid having one or two things that almost work but don't quite; this level has a lot of such scenarios, and this is really detrimental to its value as a contest level IMO.

Comment on this try:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I think you can see where this attemt went wrong horribly and I thought the little 3 podests were enough hint where to put a particular skill
I did not consider all the delaying things and scenarios you tried (I just made sure there is no other way than the intended) and even thought they could be helpful in any way, cause there is a very simple solving way where you just use the individual strenght of every single Lemming (so they are in "Unison") so you just have to follow the levels flow.

At least my fear that this level is way too easy is out of the way but as I see now it may be too hard instead

As a little help: The general idea behind this level:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1.) begin ----> Force 4 unique Lemmings and gather them together (I think this is no big secret anymore)
2.) A simple execution with all 4 Lemmings in a special sequence and then gather them again
3.) Split them up into 4 personal exits again with them helping each other ---> end

[namida]

Yup, I got the general idea. It's just the specifics that I haven't managed to find a way that works.

[IchoTolot]

Here are my (+ Simon's ) solutions for bsmith's and Crane's levels with each of the 4 exits used.

And one question from us to Crane: Should the crosses turn climbers? Because they do not, but look like they should. 

And for namida: Simon has again gathered some things for a little rant post

[Nepster]

...and some more solutions for bsmith and Crane.

[namida]

Alright, let's take a look at these V2s.

bsmith's "Quartic Egress" (click to show/hide)

I took IchoTolot's pointer, and thought of it as like four levels in one, and approached each exit individually.

For the replays, I have named them according to which corner they're in; eg. BR = bottom right.

The bottom-right one wasn't much different from my original solution.
The bottom-left one was also fairly simple, though trickier than bottom-right.
Top-left is where things started to get a bit interesting. This one took me a while to work out how exactly to control the crowd and create a turn-around at the top of the stairs, without running out of skills needed to make the path.
And finally, top-right was the hardest one. At first I wondered if this was even possible; the ultimate solution involved some neat delay tactics.

Nice level.

Crane's "Stonecrest Bay" (click to show/hide)

Crane had previously mentioned to me that all four exits are involved in the solution. So, once again, I've looked for either a backroute that circumvents this, or a solution that does indeed use all four (rather looking for various solutions using only a single exit; or possibly various subsets of the exits - though I do think there might be a backroute that uses the 3rd exit from the left for two lemmings, and doesn't use the far-right one, but I did not confirm this) - and found the latter. Very nice puzzle here!

IchoTolot's "Lemmings in Unison (click to show/hide)

Finally managed to solve it! I do like the final solution, but I also feel that - as I mentioned before - the large number of things that almost work but no amount of fine tuning will get them to actually work, is somewhat detrimental to this level.

I will actually say that the updates / looking at the levels differently has had an impact on which levels I think I'll be voting for - so take that as a pointer; updates, or even clearing up misconceptions surrounding your levels, could very well affect how your levels perform. (This is also a reason behind not allowing discussion of the levels once the voting phase starts, but allowing it during the playing phase.)

[Crane]

Makes sense, since such discussion during the voting phase can easily influence people rather than letting them make their own decisions.

My style of level design tends to be reminiscent of the original game, and these days I try to put a lot of emphasis on aesthetics, which is why I try to avoid simply putting in an out-of-place steel plate to stop a backroute, say.

Sorry for my lack of replies or my own input into other people's levels.  That will come very soon.

ADDENDUM: I'm aware that the crosses don't turn Climbers and Stonecrest Bay is designed with that in mind.

[Nepster]

Two solutions for Stonecrest V3. Both use the same (and only one) exit.

[Crane]

Ah rats, I thought I had prevented V2 - nice find on that sweet spot! V1... trickier but doable.  Gotta patch 'em all!

[Nepster]

Two more (but very similar) solutions.

[namida]

Update phase has now ended. Voting phase will begin on the 15th.

[namida]

Sorry - a bit busy with other stuff; I'll put the voting up soon though (most likely tomorrow).