[NeoLemmix] Pit Lems

[Strato Incendus]

Yeah, that's what I feared - in hindsight, once you know the solution, you can definitely see how the information about the ceiling helps.

I regarded it as a general hint on Old Formats, not a hint on this specific level. But of course, the association is created if it doesn't become relevant until a particular level.

That's why I mentioned it explicitly on the very first Lemmicks level, so that I wouldn't have to bring it up again later. I just expected the player to know it at this point (but still, some players regularly forgot about it again). But as said before, Pit Lems didn't include this hint on level 01 to remember it for later, because at that time, those were the current physics that didn't require any explanation. Therefore, at the time of Pit Lems' original release, I wouldn't have given anyone this hint who didn't ask for it.

Now however, I couldn't be sure whether you were more used to New Formats or Old Formats, and thus, if you were aware of the physics differences. If not, there wouldn't have been any way for you to solve the level, and this would have been unfair towards you. Basically like hidden information, resulting in a binary win condition (see the thread in level design). But of course, there was no way of asking you whether you were aware of the differences, without the question itsrlf already giving you a hint this might be relevant for the level.

[kaywhyn]

And Pit Lems is done! Feedback for the pack and final two ranks to come later on.

I regarded it as a general hint on Old Formats, not a hint on this specific level. But of course, the association is created if it doesn't become relevant until a particular level.

Yea, I can see that now, and to be fair, I happened to still reason and figure out the solution correctly on my own, so therefore you didn't really give anything away. However, moving forward let me make it clear that just because I stated I'm currently stuck on a level it doesn't mean I'm asking for a hint Generally, the clearest way I indicate to the author that I need a bit of a hint is if I send my best replay attempt. There were a couple of levels I did that for in United, and Icho gave me a vague hint that didn't give anything away so that allowed me to think and still figure out the solution for myself. Even if I don't, I will play it safe and attach a NO HINTS YET to my post.
 

Therefore, at the time of Pit Lems' original release, I wouldn't have given anyone this hint who didn't ask for it.

That's exactly what I did. I WASN'T asking for a hint at all, all my post was letting you know was that OMFG 20 was stumping me for the time being.

Now however, I couldn't be sure whether you were more used to New Formats or Old Formats, and thus, if you were aware of the physics differences.

Oh for sure I'm more used to New Formats (my United posts span 6 months, but I started playing United since September of last year, so really I've been used to New Formats for an entire year). On the other hand, I did play some packs for Old Formats in between whenever I got really stuck on United, but in total I have pretty much only spent about a month with Old Formats. With Lemmicks for very Old Formats, it was about a month as well.

Yes, I was well aware of the physics differences between Old Formats and New Formats in regards to the borders, but having played New Formats for a way much longer time, I was definitely bound to forget. That was certainly the case a few weeks ago when I started playing Old Formats again after 4-5 months since the last time I played Old Formats. When you stated to remember the differences, I remember thinking other than the level borders, I don't know any other differences. Deadly sides I remember, what I didn't remember was the solid ceiling still carried over from very Old Formats. As I mentioned before, there was some level (don't remember which one) in Paralems where I encountered the ceiling and was taken by surprise that the lemmings didn't die. Thus, I was aware of the solid ceiling before I reached OMFG 20, and so the fact that I got stumped simply meant it didn't occur to me that the ceiling was integral to the solution.

If not, there wouldn't have been any way for you to solve the level, and this would have been unfair towards you. Basically like hidden information, resulting in a binary win condition (see the thread in level design). But of course, there was no way of asking you whether you were aware of the differences, without the question itsrlf already giving you a hint this might be relevant for the level.

Actually, I didn't think the level was unfair in any way. OMFG 20 is completely 100% fair. The ceiling being part of the solution is not really hidden information in the same sense of hiding stuff inside walls, for example. That's hidden information, with the deliberate attempt to troll, and as I understand that's highly frowned upon by most of the community. However, the ceiling is not hidden information. Level borders are always present, but whether or not you will be able to interact with them depends on the level. Again, I'm well aware of the differences in regards to the level borders between Old Formats and New Formats. It just never occurred to me to use the ceiling to my advantage and therefore I didn't think outside the box (almost literally there for this level) enough, especially since there is even a lot of inconsistency among the different platforms. I grew up with the Dos version of Lemmings, and I know the ceiling to be solid on it. The easiest level to encounter it is Going Up in the Mayhem rank. However, there is a difference in that if you build up high enough, eventually the lemmings will place a brick and continue walking in the same direction instead of turning around. Then if you really build into the ceiling, eventually that one lemming will get stuck. I believe the right side is deadly, but the left side is not, and so attempting to go off the right side in the starting area is easy to do and will result in the lemmings dying. I know the left side is solid, and the easiest level to encounter that is NO PROBLEM in the Crazy rank of ONML.

Anyway, just reporting that I have all of Pit Lems solved and I will post my thoughts on the pack and feedback for the OMFG and FML ranks later on

[kaywhyn]

All rightie, I've attached my entire replay collection for the pack. Since I already gave you feedback for the first three ranks of the pack, this post is for feedback on the final two ranks, OMFG and FML.

OMFG Rank (click to show/hide)

OMFG 1 - You want it, you got it! Nice 5-of-everything level to start off the rank! The skillset is somewhat restricted, especially considering the huge landscape, but there's still some leeway if you're efficient in your skill usage.

OMFG 2 - Keep 'em busy Not difficult, just tricky. As the title suggests, the trick is to keep the others busy to give enough time for one lemming to bridge the gap to the exit. How achieve this is not easy. However, I was able to contain all but one of them in the starting area with builders and having one for the end.

OMFG 3 - Fire in the hole Nice puzzle! Other than figuring out how to get through the bidirectional OWW (bash to the right in the upper half, bash to the left in the lower half), the only challenging thing is how to isolate a worker lemming. Getting a second is easy, since there's a climber for that. The timing to send the climber is not difficult so that it can use the stoner step to bash the OWW on top.

OMFG 4 - Talent buried deep within Somewhat difficult due to the very restricted skillset. Working out how to free all the preplaced lemmings stuck inside the pillars is not easy at all. The most obvious is with a digger, but then there's also making sure they can still use the path forged to go to the right. I didn't have to use the disarmer to disarm the trap, so my solution might be a backroute? Also, I have several skills leftover, and my solution almost fails had the glider almost gotten past the exit at the end.

OMFG 5 - Controlled overload More difficult repeat of ROFL 10 with the addition of slowfreeze AND radiation. Here, I avoided the slowfreeze completely and only used the radiation in my solution. I don't collect one of the blocker pick-ups either (decoy maybe?) and I have a climber leftover. Also, looks like this is the level that I encountered the solid ceiling in Pit Lems, and so this escaped me completely for OMFG 20. Then again, I think it was a very quick surprised reaction. So you see, I was aware of the solid ceiling, it just felt like an extremely fast passing remark since my attention was elsewhere, being on the timers on those that went through the radiation.

OMFG 6 - Don't believe in prophecy Very nice and easy level using stoner steps to make one long continuous basher tunnel

OMFG 7 - Lem in motion Another very nice, easy and short level!

OMFG 8 - Walking in Lemphis The title is obviously a reference to Memphis. Nice looking level that's a bit of a tricky 2-of-everything level. Not too hard, though.

OMFG 9 - Disintegrated Easy level, but that's probably because I backrouted the level. I have a builder leftover.

OMFG 10 - Going down the hard way Ok, I consider this a very pointless repeat of WTF 9, since there's pretty much almost no difference between the solutions of the levels other than finding some way to get a lemming to turn around to bash since no there's no cloner this time. I probably could had gone 1 over the save requirement as well had the basher lemming been a bit higher, but to do probably requires tweaking the RR.

OMFG 11 - You had it coming Really easy 10-of-everything level

OMFG 12 - You reap what you sow I consider this the hardest level of the rank, even more than OMFG 20. I thought the hardest part was just getting two lemmings to use the bottom teleporter without anyone else dying to the water. Other than that, resources are extremely tight, so figuring out the solution can be quite difficult.

OMFG 13 - Wasted Talent Tricky more than hard. Figuring out how to prevent lemmings from going into the trapped teleporter is not trivial, but it's not too exceedingly difficult either. I definitely don't like how the trap is very well-disguised in this tileset. Those other hanging down from the ceiling wiggly things can be mistaken for a trap as well. Luckily, there's only one trap in the exit area. I believe there is a level in Lemmings Plus Alpha with this exact same title, the penultimate level of the pack which I was stuck on the longest out of all the other levels in the pack. I wonder if namida must had taken inspiration from your level, since his pack came much later than Pit Lems.

OMFG 14 - The sky is the limit Trickier repeat of WTF 18, although not much harder. Solution isn't as interesting as the one I used in WTF 18, just a slight variation. I just watched my replay for WTF 18, and the solution relies on the solid ceiling. So, I either knew about it before WTF 18 (most likely, since I'm certain I rediscovered it in Paralems) or WTF 18 was the one that taught me about the solid ceiling in Old Formats. Yet, it's really interesting how the solid ceiling completely escaped me on OMFG 20 even though a solution that uses it was just a rank ago! Oops.

OMFG 15 - Icing on the Cake This level managed to stump me for a bit before I realized that I wasn't thinking about the solution the right way. Nice looking level with a good solution. I like how you used the slowfreeze for the icing.

OMFG 16 - That's the name of the game I feel like I played a level very similar to this in another pack, where the entire level was the word LEMMINGS spelled out, so nothing too special other than being an easy 15-of-everything level. I don't remember where it came from, though.

OMFG 17 - Man Shields Nice puzzle involving releasing the zombies to trigger off the traps before you can work on saving the crowd. I didn't have to release the last zombie on the right, and I also have several skills leftover. I used a builder and a platformer to bypass the radiation trap.

OMFG 18 - Ramp up your lemmings I also consider this a pointless repeat. Really the only difference is using a combination of stoners and stackers to get up, and I'm definitely familiar with it from Icho's NL Tutorial Pack, so it was easy. For others, it can be a difficult level if one doesn't know about it.

OMFG 19 - Builder buddies Short and very easy, given that it's supposed to teach another trick of using builders to turn around when there's no solid terrain. I can still see how this level can be difficult for the less experienced players though. For one thing, it requires the right RR. For another, it requires making the second builder build in a precise location, specifically, the moment it steps off of the first builder's first brick.

OMFG 20 - Cherry Picking As I already mentioned in my previous post, this level is completely 100% fair IMO, as I was very well aware of the solid ceiling from a previous level in the previous rank or from some level in Paralems. Here, it somehow never occurred to me to use the solid ceiling even though the last time I used it in the solution was from the previous rank, WTF. Oops. So, I guess it was simply a reminder from you that I was able to figure out for myself, which means you didn't give away any of the solution. I can see that now. This is what I appreciate IF I ask for a hint, where I prefer pack authors give me one that doesn't give a major part of the solution away. At the same time, you now know that unless I specifically request a hint, me stating that I'm stuck on a level DOESN'T automatically mean that I'm asking for a hint I'm Not to mention that for some reason I didn't think it would work with just two stackers. It definitely should had been obvious to me that using the digger after giving a left-facing lemming a climber would just lead to a dead end, but I never made the connection.

In any case, not a hard level at all. This reminds me of a United level that required a certain trick that I had never ever seen before that would had been impossible for me otherwise. Icho's hint to me was that he learned it from Wafflem, so since the level completely requires it 100%, I decided to take the time to play Wafflem's pack. Once I made the connection with the Wafflem level where I've seen it, I came back to the United level that held me back and it was an auto solve. What isn't certain is whether or not I would had figured it out given enough time. As for the solid ceiling for OMFG 20, it probably would had come to me sooner or later.

FML Rank (click to show/hide)

FML 1 Dig Pic Tricky more than difficult diggers only level to start off the rank. The solution is easy, executing it correctly isn't.

FML 2 - A Trip to Yugoslemmia Obviously a reference to the country Yugoslavia. Easier than the previous level, with the only tricky thing being how to isolate a single lemming to disarm the traps and forge the path, but once successful, the rest is easy.

FML 3 - You asked for this! Easy level as well. Nothing too special here.

FML 4 - En garde! Nice slightly tricky fencing from both sides puzzle level. Thanks for providing other tools to help with the second fencer.

FML 5 - Hydra philosophy Excellent level! The title is totally appropriate, referring to how the creature regenerates additional heads after one is cut off. In this case, the cloner plays the part of the head regeneration.

FML 6 - @!#*$%/! Not sure what you're trying to censor in the title. Probably a swear/curse word in your language, since I'm not aware of any English profanity that has this many letters. Somewhat difficult level, where it's not easy to figure out how to contain the crowd, and builders are quite a precious resource here but is in extremely short supply, so you can't be wasteful with them at all.

FML 7 - Merry X-Maze! Too easy. Nothing too special here other than nice single use of the X-mas tileset for the pack here. Looks pretty decent artistically too.

FML 8 - Copycats Easy level. Compression for the win once more!

FML 9 - Get a Foothold Difficult puzzle level. Initially, I kept only using the radiation, but once I realized how I can get a climber to get to both the slowfreeze and the radiation via the cloners, the rest was easy. Surely there are easier ways than how I did it, though. I'm sure getting a stoner as a stepping stone to break the crowd's fall is the intended way, but here I simply used to radiation bomber holes staggered in such a way that they can step to the lowest level of the floor and survive the fall as a result. 

FML 10 - Last cry for salvation Despite being a 10-of-everything level, the level is still somewhat difficult. My solution is likely not intended. I guess my solution definitely takes advantage of how this teleporter is extremely fast. I like how the puzzle revolves around how to use the swimmer and disarmer hatch groups to forge a safe path for the other two lemming hatches that don't have permanent skills.

FML 11 - Three Lems, one stomper Very short, somewhat tricky one-of-everything level. Here, I simply delayed the second lemming with a floater, digger, and then bashing to give the first lemming enough time to build over the trigger area of the stomper so the other two lemmings don't get killed. I think I could had made it easier by having the second lemming block and using the third to release him with a digger and basher.

FML 12 - Acrobatic endeavours Unless my solution is intended, it is possible to contain the crowd at the top and simply platform all the way across to the left exit. Therefore, the swimmers and disarmers aren't needed, and the floaters don't need to go to the bottom. Indeed, I initially tried to work out the solution using the bottom route, but I gave up on that after a few attempts. This is similar to the ROFL level where different specialist lemmings spawn out of the exact same hatch. Otherwise, I'm sure this is supposed to be a difficult level that involves getting to the right side through the bottom, since only climbers should be using the left exit.

FML 13 - Lemmings of Troy Nice level depicting the Trojan horse and the sieging of Troy. Level seems a bit tricky due to the very restricted skillset, but it's still easy.

FML 14 - Lemhattan Clearly a reference to Manhattan. Nice looking and good puzzle involving getting a swimmer to build from the other side so that you can just fence through the up OWW. It's quite difficult to make out the terrain with all the background buildings.

FML 15 - A level of fire and ice Easy level, although not much of a puzzle with the slowfreeze, since it's already placed at the right distance away to create a stepping stone for the left crowd to bridge the gap to get to the right crowd to release them. The only tricky thing is isolating just one lemming to get to the slowfreeze while ensuring that no other lemmings are lost if you use the two bombers and lose one from the slowfreeze, meaning you must save the blocker if you use it. Once again, I got scared thinking my containment method wouldn't work but then it was immediately gone once I saw the climbers hit the ceiling and fall back down. Seems like it's just one of those things that's easily forgotten, particularly if you've been used to New Formats for so long.

FML 16 - Another stunt maneuver Another repeat of the same level that appears once in both the OMFG and WTF ranks? The major difference is that the exit moved down, as in its original position it is protected by two blowtorch traps. Just two stoners, one as a stepping stone on the same level as the exit, and two platformers and done, and so I didn't use the builders and stackers at all. I just realized how very similar the "u" looks to the "v" in the game.

FML 17 - Triple Security Tricky, but excellent level! But boy, that partly hidden trap behind the exit looks very out of place. I think I understand why it's there though. It's supposed to represent one of them x-ray detectors that we pass through at places like the airport. Before I spotted the trap, I remember seeing a disarmer in the skill panel and I was like, "What's the point of having a disarmer? I don't see any trap in the level."

FML 18 - Speedy Lembert Nice level that looks impossible but you have to remember that the lemming has all permanent athletic skills: swimmer, climber, and glider. I have never seen this tileset before.

FML 19 - Apotheosis exam Can be on the difficult side, but I still found the level somewhat easy for the penultimate of the pack. It's an excellent level with a nice solution! Platforming from both sides of the water gap is necessary, as platforming from just the left side won't get you across the entire pond.

FML 20 - White Wilderness I think it's just me, but for the final level of the pack this was a letdown. It's really easy, although it's still not too trivial. Just three bahsers, a floater, and two platformers and done. I definitely expected a much more difficult and epic level to finish off the pack. So many skills leftover.   

Overall, Pit Lems is many times better than your first pack, Paralems. I definitely enjoyed the levels/puzzles here way more. Though the pack immediately starts off difficult, I definitely felt appropriately challenged and didn't get too overwhelmed with the difficulty. Let's see what LOA has in store for me when I get to it. From what I seen and read, it appears that you aren't pulling any punches at all with that pack, so maybe for even someone like me it will be quite difficult. Nevertheless, I don't mind difficult packs and I'm willing to take them on, the same way I took on United. But first, I think I'll be taking on your flagship pack LWT for Old Formats before pre-testing LOA. Plus, as has been suggested by you, I should wait until you have patched all the levels based on Armani's replays/feedback first before I play the pack. I think that's a good idea. Now that I have finished Pit Lems, I've given you even more levels to look at so that you can fix them for Pit Lems Remastered

In summary, excellent job with a well-done pack! I loved it a lot, way more compared to Paralems. The only time I felt bored with the pack was from the pointless repeats, but otherwise I absoluely loved the way so many of the levels gave me enough of a challenge to keep me engaged and the satisfaction that came from figuring out the solutions. I definitely highly recommend this pack to anyone who hasn't played it yet, but at the same time I also agree with you that I wouldn't recommend Paralems. I simply played it because again I thought I wouldn't mind those generally hated elements most of the community frowns upon, as well as since I already started playing the pack, my personal preference of always finishing what I start.