Official Level Design Contest #5 (Playing Phase - Discussion Topic)

[namida]

This topic is for discussion of the levels, feedback, posting replays, etc. For creators wishing to post updates, or if you're looking for the latest updates, please check this topic instead.

So, entries have finally closed, after a very long entry period due to updates / new submissions coming in at the last minute - and this contest also has the largest number of submissions yet! The theme was to design a level with a save requirement of no more than 10%.

Our entered levels are (in alphabetical order by author name):

<V4> "Lemming Mashed Potato Facility" by bsmith (NeoLemmix)
<V7> "Tough Call" by Crane (NeoLemmix)
<V1> "Minefield" by geoo (Lix)
<V1> "Teleporters of doom" by GigaLem (NeoLemmix)
<V1> "Escape From Lemlab" by IchoTolot (NeoLemmix)
<V4> "Electroshock" by Nepster (NeoLemmix)
<V2> "Palmtree Pile-up v1.2" by Simon (Lix)

The levels are in an attached ZIP. To play the levels:

NeoLemmix: Run NeoCustLemmix, press F6 on the title screen, and select the LVL file. Alternatively, open them in the editor, then press F2 for playtest mode (requires a copy of NeoCustLemmix in the same folder as the editor). I have checked all the levels, and none of them should require NeoLemmix V1.35n; they should all work fine with the slightly-older versions (at least V1.33n).

Lix: Copy the level into the /levels/single/ subfolder, then select them from the "Single Player" menu.


Updates to the levels are possible until whichever comes last: the 27th of June, or 72 hours from the last update (by any author). After this, the levels will be finalized; and voting will open 5 days after updates close. There is a seperate topic for level creators to post updates in; they will also periodically be updated here. However, until it is announced that updates are closed, you should also keep an eye on the updates topic to ensure you have the latest version.

Updates are now closed. All levels can now be considered finalized as far as the contest is concerned. Voting will open around July 5th.


The winners will be decided by voteoff once the playing phase ends. 1st and 2nd place may choose one prize each out of (first place gets first pick, they cannot both choose the same):
The prizes available for this contest are:
- US $12.50 (via PayPal or Bitcoin, can also opt to have something up to that value purchased on your behalf, or to have it donated to a charity)
- One month's advertising for a project you're creating (or involved in creating), whether lemmings-related or not, and whether free or not, in the forum's news ticker
- A Two new gimmicks of your choice added to NeoLemmix (within reason)
- A new object type of your choice added to NeoLemmix (within reason); this only includes supporting it in-game and in the graphic set editor, and does not include actually creating a graphic set (or expanding an existing one) to include the object
- Your choice for the next contest's rules (within reason)

Levels ZIP last updated: 26 June, 22:57 UTC
(Note: Do not use this timestamp to determine when the update phase ends; use the time of the most recent post in the updates topic. This timestamp is just when I actually got around to updating this post's attachment.)

[Simon]

Edit Simon 2015-06-16 18:00 UTC: namida has reuploaded the archive, now everything is playable.

Both geoo's and my level are chopped off in the middle of the files.

Reupload would be nice. :-)

(What am I experiencing: geoo's level is chopped off in line 322, my level is chopped off in line 105. My level should have 107 lines instead. There seem to be chopped off exactly as many bytes as there are linefeeds in the original file. Downloaded the archive twice, didn't fix the problem. Unpacked with two different programs, didn't fix the problem.)

(What others would experience: Lix refuses to start the level and displays icons for missing terrain.)

-- Simon

[namida]

Reuploaded.

[IchoTolot]

While the Lix entries are not playable atm: here are my solutions to the NeoLemmix entries
I also attached the intended solution to my entry!

My thoughts's:

bsmith's Lemming Mashed Potato Facility:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The first level I played from you and I must say this is a positiv surprise! I am not sure if I got the intended solution, but it was a nice puzzle nevertheless. It could use some more decoration though.

Cranes Tough Call:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A hard and good looking level , which made me use sooooome tricks (and I don't know if this is intended!). As some will know I love me some bigger levels which use a bit more space

GigaLem's Teleporters of doom:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The level looks great , ......... buuuuuut come on Giga I know you can do way better on the skills and execution side. Blowing 2 blocker's up is not that much fun.

Nepster's Elektroshock:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I am shocked to say that I prob. have backrouted the heck out of it (over 50% can't be right,  or?). Nevertheless: It looks good and I had to use some tricks to my solution. I liked it

[GigaLem]

Yeah i wish can make better levels

[namida]

The Lix ones are fixed now; just redownload the archive.

[IchoTolot]

Annnnd here are the Lix levels

Geoo's Minefield:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That's what I call a creative puzzle!:thumbsup: "I need just one more free Lix" I thought to myself, but then I saw the trick

Simon's Palmtree Pile-up v1.1:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In the first 5 min's I was clueless how to get more than 2 over the gap! But BASEBALL-BAT to the rescue! I love that skill *batsch*

[Crane]

Ooo, that was a glitchy solution - when I saw that lemming separate itself from the pack, I kinda said "What the?!" out loud and had to rewind to see exactly what you did!  Truthfully I'm not actually sure if I can patch that one.  Since you use all of the tools and you only scored 12% though, I might let it stay, although I'll see how many other people solve it that way.  The intended solution uses nothing that I consider to be a glitch.

POST SCRIPTUM: The level's called "Tough Call", not "Though Call"!

[Crane]

Here are the levels I've solved so far.

Teleporters of doom:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I will admit that I think "Teleporters of doom" was somewhat boring because of a poor oversight.  I can see a challenge in timing in trying to bomb the two sets of Lemmings so they merge together for the final trip to the exit, but if you just contain the Lemmings from one of the trapdoors as tightly as possible between the two Blockers, and ignore the other trapdoor completely, you can save 35 Lemmings each time.

Escape from Lemlab:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That gave me some difficulty, partly from not being used to the NeoLemmix-exclusive tools, but also some pretty precise timing and very little room for error.  Even after I got the solution down, I had to constantly tinker with it to make it as tight as possible and save the correct number of Lemmings.  I'm a bit of a purist, and having to constantly replay a level to get the climbers timed properly gets tedious after a while.

Personally I didn't feel this level really incorporated the death mechanic too effectively, in that it was just there and not really part of the solution (other than the timings required with the climbers and compressors).  If it was just a contained pit that you open up later on after bashing through the one-way walls, it is effectively the same level.  If anything, the death mechanic just took the place of a tight timer.  But despite all that, it's a nicely-designed level.

Electroshock:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Probably a backroute because I finished with 2 Climbers left over and rescued 34%.  Was fun working it out though.

[Crane]

Oops, I forgot I was a bit inefficient with that Platformer on Escape from Lemlab - I had it there because I initially used a Miner instead of a Basher, so I could theoretically save a few more Lemmings and finish with a leftover Platformer.  My solution still near enough coincides with the intended one though.

[Crane]

Well, I know how to fix the glitchy solution to my level, but I'm going to wait on it for now.  If IchoTolot was the only one to solve it that way, it might stay.  Aah, the bane of intended solutions!

[namida]

So far, I've solved "Lemming Mashed Potato Facility", "Tough Call" and "Teleporters of Doom".

I thought the former was a fairly fun level, though I'm pretty sure I backrouted it.

The second was indeed an excellent level. I loved the tricks involving the crowd.

The last one isn't that interesting - looks fancy, but doesn't play very fun.

I've also attempted Escape From Lemlab, tried quite a lot of things but nothing quite works out.

[Crane]

Hrm, a backroute, but I'm glad you enjoyed the tricks with the crowd.  Good work namida.

[namida]

Leaving Escape from Lemlab aside for now, I took a look at the other levels:

Electroshock - I think I may have backrouted this one, but a fairly neat level nonetheless.

Palmtree Pile-Up - Needed a fair bit of precision, but wasn't too bad.

Minefield - I like the concept of this level, but I found it a bit on the annoying side in practice.

I'll take another look at Escape from Lemlab soon, too. It's clearly, by far, the hardest of these levels (at least for me).

[IchoTolot]

Hehehe got one stucked!

I will leave the spare platformer in it (as long as I don't see a huge backroute involving it)! Didn't know that that one part could be done with one platformer less, but hey one additional does decrease the precision a bit.

One additional question: I tried to make the little marble pillars look a bit like lab-pipes as well as the teleporter pipes and the rest of the level as seperated lab-sections with a test chamber for the Lemmings for leathal "reasearch" experiments .  For the future and design research purpose: Did I succed in it or is it not recognisable?

[namida]

I certianly think you did a good job on the level visually! And, I finally managed to solve it, though I don't know if it's a backroute or not. Turns out the problem was that I was using a miner and a basher the wrong way around, and thus overlooking...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

the mine-into-steel trick being usable while breaking through the poles near the exit.

This is an excellent level.

[IchoTolot]

Intended with only slight variances (also applies to Cranes solution) in when to send the last grp and removing the three last pipes. Good job

But I must admit that Crane's critic is true and the save req could have been much more than a time frame.

[Crane]

It blends in pretty well, I think.  At least when I thought I finally solved it, I forgot about the pipe at the rightmost (fake) teleport exit, so yeah, it blends in if you're not looking for it!

[Nepster]

Teleporters of doom:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I agree with the other comments. But we already have seen much better levels from you, GigaLem

Escape from Lemlab:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Clever level. However it has the feeling of a usual level, that was modified to fit the contest criteria: Adding the trap next to the hatch and raising the number of lemmings to 210 was enough. At first I did not see the three pillars next to the exit. I only realized this, when my first solution failed.

Tough Call:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sorry, but likely a backroute: Saving over 80% was probably not intended.

Lemming Mashed Potato Facility:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Another clever level. Not sure how much of my solution is intended, because it saves quite a few lemmings more than necessary.

Palmtree:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I ignored the left hatch completely, so my solution might not be completely intended.

Minefield:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Very good idea, but not yet solved.

Electroshock:
All three solutions are backroutes, because they ignore the main tricks of the level. My solution saves only about 20%, so anything beyond that is very likely a backroute.

[namida]

Here's my replay for V2 of Electroshock. A bit more challenging, but the same general approach (with some tweaks) still works.

[Nepster]

Thanks, but still a backroute. V3 is on the way.

[Akseli]

My solutions for bsmith's, Crane's, Nepster's (v1 though, didn't look at the updates yet) and geoo's contest levels. I solved Giga's level as well, certainly in the same way as other people. IchoTolot's and Simon's levels can wait for now (they were the hardest for me), I'll leave for summer cottage for midsummer and I'll come back on Sunday evening. After seeing earlier contests I still keep smiling at these new contest levels, all you guys surprise me every time with these great levels! Really enjoyed them so far.

[namida]

Electroshock V3, same overall approach still works, just with some minor tweaks. In fact, I could've done this with even fewer skills and possibly a couple more lemmings saved.

[Crane]

Just a little something for Escape from Lemlab... this is me saving over 20%, taking advantage of that spare Platformer!

[namida]

Solved V2 of Tough Call. It's basically just an "extended" version of my previous solution.

[bsmith]

So far, I only have solved Teleporters of doom.

It is interesting to see all the different ways my level was backrouted.  namida, your replay seems to be corrupted.  I keep getting an error 0020 when I try to load the replay.

[namida]

Not corrupted; it's just becasue the replay was created with NeoLemmix V1.35n. Older versions can't open V1.35n replays.

Generally, replays from new NeoLemmix versions will still load on older versions, but V1.35n is an exception to this; older versions can't open its replays (V1.28n, IIRC, was the only other time this happened).

[namida]

Solution to Lemming Mashed Potato Facility V2. I'm fairly sure this one's a backroute, unless...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

one of the platformers is actually intended to just be a decoy skill. But if it is the intended solution, it's pretty impressive how perfectly things fall into place together.

This solution could probably also be modified to save one or two extra lemmings.

[namida]

New update to Tough Call, calls for a new backroute to Tough Call...

This method uses every skill, so chances are it's very close to being completely blocked. And either way, it's a very good level as is.

[Crane]

My solution for Electroshock V3.  Though it uses all of the tools, I saved 72%, and I could opt to save less since I have 3 tools left with which to release the crowd, and only one is required to let the required number through.

Nice work again namida.  You were right, that one was very easy to patch and in a way that keeps the level looking quite neat.  That little lip can't be helped, as it's the only way to stop a Climber going that way, but otherwise I'm quite pleased with the final appearance.  Version 4 posted on the other topic.

[namida]

I'm not sure if this one's another backroute or if I've hit the intended solution now. However, I did save 30% here and have a couple of diggers left over...

[Crane]

That might take some thought, as it's quite close to the intended solution.  I'll figure something out though.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I really don't want to replace the left-facing arrows with down-facing arrows if I can help it, as it really gives the game away.

[namida]

I probably wouldn't've found that very quickly had I not found the backroutes in earlier versions. I don't know exactly what your intended solution is, but if it's that close, and the backroute isn't too easily-found, sometimes it's better to leave them in. Trying to force one single solution can often reduce the fun of a level (though without knowing the intended solution exactly, I can't say for sure whether it'd do so for this level).

[Crane]

I'll keep that in mind - thanks namida.  I'll post the intended solution once the competition is over though.  The thing is, I think the backroute is a little easier to find than the intended solution.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You're supposed to use five diggers to save approximately 45 lemmings from the top, using release rate tricks to save as many as possible.  The Climber and Floater is used as you did, to get over the wall, mine into the steel to turn around and through the dividing wall, although only after the first group of lemmings (from the first digger) hit the wall and turn around to head towards the expanse of water to the exit.  While the pathfinder is building the bridge, you should have 2 bashers and a digger left - one basher is used in the same way as you do in your solution, clearing a path towards the left so the lemmings can loop back to the exit, while the other one is used one level up so as to increase the distance lemmings have to walk so the other basher has time to finish (and is sacrificed when he breaks through the other side and walks into the water).  In the end, two of the five groups of lemmings need to be saved to reach the 10% quota normally.  Finally the 6th digger is used to dig down to reach the exit.

If are very good with timing the Climber/Miner, you can prolong the lives of the first group too, with only 2 or 3 lemmings turning around to walk over the Ghostbuster trap and towards the water.  This allows you to start the bashers earlier and possibly save three groups instead of two.

[bsmith]

Solution to Lemming Mashed Potato Facility V2. I'm fairly sure this one's a backroute, unless...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

one of the platformers is actually intended to just be a decoy skill. But if it is the intended solution, it's pretty impressive how perfectly things fall into place together.

This solution could probably also be modified to save one or two extra lemmings.

That is an impressive backroute.  The digger I removed was supposed to be a decoy skill - while making my level I never thought about using the digger where you did.  I could easily modify the level so that my solution uses only one platformer, but that won't stop your backroute.

[namida]

One approach that might work is...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Placing steel underneath where I used the digger.

However, this could arguably impact the aesthetic quality of the level, or perhaps interfere with the intended solution depending on what exactly it is.

[Nepster]

Solution for Tough Call V4:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

My solution to V1 required only slight changes.

Solution to Lemming Mashed Potato Facility V2:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

My solution to V1 still works, because it turned out that the digger was not really necessary.

Electroshock:
Still no solution, that uses the tricks I wanted. Crane's solution is getting closer, though. The next version replaces the builder by a platformer and has several other slight terrain changes.

[namida]

Lemming Mashed Potato Facility V3, my solution is fairly similar to the previous one.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The only real difference is that I used the stacker-bomber trick to make the fall survivable, rather than to get past the first wall as they now fall onto that wall anyway.

Electroshock V4, likewise, my solution is just a variation on my previous one.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

However, the timing for this one was a lot tighter due to the extra trick at the end. Though it could possibly also be done by platforming the other edge too, and assigning a climber from the crowd, rather than bringing an extra worker in at the right time.

[namida]

Tough Call V5, something fairly similar to my previous solutions still works. It's not as overkill on the saved amount though - it only saves slightly above the requirement. However, the similarity to solutions you've said are backroutes, as well as...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

the two-digger trick used with the lemmings that (most of) eventually reach the exit...

make me think it's probably still a backroute.

[namida]

Tough Call V6. Not sure how effective these changes were; almost-the-same solution still works.

[Crane]

Bummer!  Maybe I do need the arrows after all.  I think I have an idea as to the fix now though.  I just hope I'm not destroying the level's fun factor.  Thanks for your relentless testing namida.

[namida]

My solution would still have worked with one-way-left arrows (but not with one-way-downs). Whether it could be adjusted to work in the presence of one-way-downs, I'm not sure.

[Crane]

I was considering one-way right arrows, but there's an annoying mechanic where a basher or miner will stop a digger even if they are facing the wrong way, and hence allow for a means to trap the lemmings.  Honestly I'm not sure how to stop it.

[namida]

With a miner, that's to be expected (it's a bit more surprising that a basher allows this). The reason this couldn't (most of the time) happen under DOS Lemmings, is that the check is "is the lemming currently inside a one-way walls area" - if they're merely standing on it, but not inside it, they'll take one swing, hit terrain the wrong way, and turn around. NeoLemmix still implements similar logic, but one critical difference is that one way wall trigger areas are automatically "cleaned up" - if there's no solid terrain pixel at a given coordinate, any one way wall trigger area on that pixel will be removed.

The most obvious way to notice that is, if you destroy part of a one way wall, then use a builder inside the destroyed area, on DOS, the builder's bridge becomes one-way wall. In NeoLemmix, it does not. This can be thought of as that one-way-wall areas are part of the terrain itself, not objects (this is completely inaccurate from a technical point of view, but is a very good way of explaining how they seem to work for the end user).

[Crane]

Well, if you dig through down arrows, or one-way arrows pointing against the lemming's direction, then the lemming will bash once (without breaking any terrain) and stop.  Just means I have to think more deeply about patching things, although I'll most likely leave it until after the competition now.

[Simon]

Palmtree: Removed the right-hatch-only backroute found by Nepster, version 1.2 in update topic. Bumpy terrain and flinging is breeding grounds for fiddly backroutes.

Anything that uses both hatches is perfect, even if it's not 100 % what I imagine. IIRC, geoo has the intended solution, and Ichotolot had a deviation that's still good.
 
-- Simon

[namida]

I'll try to have a look at your update (and the latest version of Tough Call) sometime today.

[namida]

Updates close in about 8 hours (if no further ones are received).

[namida]

Sorry about the delay in actually posting this, but no further updates were made, so update phase is now closed. Voting will open on July 5th.