character design for next version of Cheapo

[guest]

I decided to branch this off of the "suggestion for new Cheapo" thread in Level Design.

Essman has mentioned that for the next version of Cheapo, he's going to change the lemmings graphics so that they won't look like lemmings anymore.  The idea is to avoid certain, well, issues, by making the artwork original, so that they don't resemble anything in the commercial game world (eg. no tiny Marios, sorry Insane Steve).

Now I can't draw crap for life but I thought this thread could be use as a repository for ideas, concepts, suggestions etc. people may have on the characters.  Of course, if you actually have real artwork to post that'd be cool too.

Essman said the characters should be about 20-24 pixels tall.  He didn't say how wide but based on the current graphics, probably about 1/2 as wide as it is tall.  These dimensions of course means that certain character designs will work better than others (eg. a walking hamburger ain't gonna cut it, but maybe a walking hot dog, with its slenderer shape, can).  Also remember that your character needs to be able to climb, fall, float, block, build, dig, mine, bash, etc., so your character design should be able to do all this looking natural.  This likely means you'd want at least a pair of arms attached, if nothing else.  A pair of legs is probably not a bad idea either though I can imagine viable alternatives.

If you do have actual bitmaps, you should e-mail them Essman since he'd be the one deciding what ultimately get used.

[guest]

First of all, I guess I should acknowledge Dragonslover as the first one who actually contributed a character idea.  He talked about his little red dragons.  I haven't actually seen them myself so I don't know if this is purely conceptual or whether he actually has real graphics ready for use.  But it's an idea I suppose, provided that the dragons can climb, build, dig, etc. in a convincing manner, and provided that the width is half the height (which could be troublesome for a dragon due to its tail).

Here's a conceptual character concept I'll throw in.  It's not very creative but it's a start.  Looking at the nature of the Lemmings gameplay, the lemmings are in some ways like drone robots, so I think.  And so hey, maybe the new characters can look like tiny robots!  I don't have an idea though how to make a robot in a 12 pixels wide by 24 pixels tall box (Mike, help please???  ).  And then maybe instead of Cheapo we can call the game "Drones" or something.  Well alright maybe not.  But still, here's an idea.  The only trouble I have is how to make climbing robots.  Just because you don't usually see such things.

I in particular imagine there is a tiny (1 to 4 pixels) red blinky-light thing on top of the head of each drone robot.  They'll be green and nonblinking (well they can blink but it might get annoying) when walking around, red and nonblinking when a blocker, and the best part, when they're about to explode, the blinky thing flashes red and then the robot detonates.

If you think it's lame, come up with a better one quick!

[guest]

Extending along the line of drone robots, I started thinking about certain social animals, insects in particular, that also have a drone quality.  Bees and ants naturally come to mind.

The big issue of course is how to draw them walking and going about in an upright position, though at least for ants I think it can be done.  Bees are probably a bad fit for this since you expect bees to fly around not walk.

[guest]

Speaking of animals, I started to think about what animals out there can naturally walk, or well, at least stand, upright.

So far I can only think of bears and gorillas.  Anything else?  Well, birds, but they lack arms, which seems necessary for convincing bashing, mining, digging, building, and especially climbing animations.

Of course, it's quite possible to draw animals that don't naturally walk upright to nonetheless walk upright in a manner that looks natural.  After all, Nintendo did it with Bowser which is supposed to be a turtle (with quite a bit of artistic license applied, to be sure).

And of course there's no reason to stick to animals.  A pair of arms and legs can be slapped onto many things, after all that's what a mascot is.  Anyhow.......

[Shvegait]

Dragonslover's Red Dragons style can be downloaded off of Garjen. They look fine but it's weird that they walk! and the mining dragon is a bit strange (Of course I understand the limitations.)

[guest]

Of course, it's quite possible to draw animals that don't naturally walk upright to nonetheless walk upright in a manner that looks natural.

The commercial world has indeed provide us with many examples of getting animals to walk upright naturally.  Let's see:  mouse, duck, rabbit, dog, cat, pig, gecko, penguin, ...

Of course, the challenge is always in fitting stuff into 12x24.

One random idea while I was driving:  zombies.  Well, they are humanoid, so there's little question that you can get them to do all the lemmings animation.  And with zombies the game can provide a backstory of a mad scientist (you) giving life to an army of zombies in a quest to take over the world.

Though admittedly it's difficult to make zombies look cute.  

[guest]

Dragonslover's Red Dragons style can be downloaded off of Garjen. They look fine but it's weird that they walk! and the mining dragon is a bit strange (Of course I understand the limitations.)

LOL I just took a look at it.  You think the MINING is weird?!?!?  I thought it was one of the more normal looking ones.  The builder and digger gave me a bit of a laughing fit.  

Actually, the dragon itself is quite different from what I envisioned.  Clearly they are couch-potato, McDonalds 3 times a day dragons, for they are the fattest dragons I've ever seen.  And they confirmed my suspicion that a dragon needs a more square box to accomodate.

But it does serve to correct some assumptions I've made that are wrong:

1) I insisted on a particular width-to-height ratio, because I fear that the width can be a major factor in the game mechanics.  But on further thoughts that doesn't have to be the case.  If the game always consistent treats the right-hand boundary of the character bounding box as the "front" of the character, then it shouldn't matter how skinny or fat your character is, with one exception:  if Essman chose to rewrite blocker behavior so that overlapping blockers are not allowed (as in original Lemmings, and unlike Cheapo currently), then the width will matter significantly.  But overall, the width didn't matter as much as I originally imagined (but it should still be restricted to be no wider than a bombed hole, in fact I'd say no wider than 2/3 the size of a bombed hole).  Height still matters crucially of course.

One other thing to note about character width:  it does matter to a certain extend in climbing.  The game can always draw it so it doesn't care about how wide the character is (again by always using the front of the bitmap as the character's position); however, too long and when you start climbing, a major portion of the character sprite will start off going into the ground.

Characters that are too wide also makes for some problem with getting digging to look right.  And also blockers, since even without overlapping blockers, it's good to keep the blocker's arms extended at the same distance as it is now.  This I believe forces the character bounding box to be at most a square (width should never be longer than height), possibly a little less.


2) I stated that for bashing, building, mining, etc. you'd need a pair of arms.  I was wrong.  Dragonslover's red dragon substitute arms with a breath of fire for bashing.  Building...well, one of the more funny animations in Dragonslover's style, you see it for yourself.  But the point is, with a little creativity it should be possible to avoid arms and legs even for the various animations that are traditionally drawn with arms and legs.  Do bear in mind though that the way the terrain pixels gets added and removed by the skills must remain the same, so you'll need to design your character animations around the terrain add/remove animations.

[Essman]

I might as well post my ideas. I was playing around with different ideas and came up with two that I won't use. I'm including links to screenshots.
1) An armless alien with huge feet.
2.1) A ferret
2.2) Walking animation for ferret.
2.3) Ferrets walking around a test level.
I made the ferrets 28 pixels tall, which is just a little too tall. They are fat, and that doesn't matter so much, but they should've been thinner.

[Conway]

Oh the ferrets look cute!

 I haven't read much of the suggestions thread, but I was wondering, will the next Cheapo include the ability to create custom lemming animations in the themes? Will there be the ability to create new themes as in the current Cheapo? If so, then we don't have to worry about copyright if making themes with tradition looking lemmings or Super Marios, just as long as they're not distributed with the game itself. For example, the traditional lemmings in the current Cheapo may technically be in breach of copyright, but Insane Steve's Mario theme isn't because it's all encoded for Cheapo, and it's not technically part of the game, as it's downloaded separately.

 So, we could use all the ideas mentioned, as well as recreations of the traditional lemmings, Marios, Sonics, Dragonslever's dragons, and any other animation the user or Essman wants. So we only need a very basic template style with some basic characters to go with the game, and more can come from the users in custom themes.

 Again, I haven't been keeping up with the suggestions thread, so I don't know if the new game will support custom characters as the current version does. But it's just a thought.

[Essman]

I haven't read much of the suggestions thread, but I was wondering, will the next Cheapo include the ability to create custom lemming animations in the themes? Will there be the ability to create new themes as in the current Cheapo?

Yes, all that customization will be possible.

[DragonsLover]

Hee hee! All you said about my little red dragons makes me laugh!

Dragonslover's Red Dragons style can be downloaded off of Garjen. They look fine but it's weird that they walk! and the mining dragon is a bit strange (Of course I understand the limitations.)

Yes, the animation of the mining dragon isn't very good. Maybe should I modify the style a little bit. I got a little bit of trouble to make the animation to fit correctly.

Also, about the fact that they could fly instead of walking. The only thing is I hope that there will be the tool: Fly. This can makes all the difference!

LOL I just took a look at it. &#A0;You think the MINING is weird?!?!? &#A0;I thought it was one of the more normal looking ones. &#A0;The builder and digger gave me a bit of a laughing fit.
 
Actually, the dragon itself is quite different from what I envisioned. &#A0;Clearly they are couch-potato, McDonalds 3 times a day dragons, for they are the fattest dragons I've ever seen. &#A0;And they confirmed my suspicion that a dragon needs a more square box to accomodate.

Lol! I didn't have any ideas for the builder. How a dragon can create a step for the stair? I decided that the steps appeared by magical ability of the dragon, under his paw. I know this is a little bit weird, but it's all I thought! For the digger, of course, they could used their claws, but I decided to make a "jumper".

You said that my dragons are FAT??? O_O Lol! They're big, ok! But not fat!!! I was limited to the size of the boxes. Maybe a snake-like dragon would be better?

Couch-potato, McDonalds 3 times a day dragons! Lol!

I stated that for bashing, building, mining, etc. you'd need a pair of arms. &#A0;I was wrong. &#A0;Dragonslover's red dragon substitute arms with a breath of fire for bashing. &#A0;Building...well, one of the more funny animations in Dragonslover's style, you see it for yourself. &#A0;But the point is, with a little creativity it should be possible to avoid arms and legs even for the various animations that are traditionally drawn with arms and legs. &#A0;Do bear in mind though that the way the terrain pixels gets added and removed by the skills must remain the same, so you'll need to design your character animations around the terrain add/remove animations.

Yep, you're right! Use your imagination! It's what I did!

I remember that another one person made another dragon style before mine. First, they're less fat then mines! Also, they're blue and the builder animation is that the dragon spit and the spittle becomes a stair! Do you think is that better? Look at the dragon style to see!

And what about new tools? If there are the tools: Fly, swim, run... this could help us to choose the character. What are the new tools?

to have dragons. But it's not obligated!

I've an idea: What about moles? They're blind and make tunnels everywhere!

[Conway]

AARRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! O_o Attack X_X of the O_O killer smilys!!!  =8O =8O =8O =8O =8O

 Anyway, yeah, dragons are cute, and fat. But I really dislike the idea of different skills, especially flyers. And even worse, ones that you can tell where to go like in Lemmings 2: Tribes. We don't want the game resembling Tribes too much. I'd rather just keep the traditional skills.

[guest]

You said that my dragons are FAT??? O_O Lol! They're big, ok! But not fat!!! I was limited to the size of the boxes. Maybe a snake-like dragon would be better?

Your dragons aren't too bad overall, I do wish they look a little more, I dunno, detailed, right now it's kinda hard to tell that they are dragons.  But then again, I probably can't draw a decent dragon in a 800x600 box, let alone 24x24, so I have no right to complain.  

[Timballisto]

Hmmmm...suggestion, Essman. &#A0;I think that instead of writing all the code usually required for setting up a theme, you shuold be able to do it in the editor. &#A0;You get all of the graphics and musics etc. ready, and then the editor asks you the name of the style, the author, the pieces file, traps, sounds, etc. and you just enter the numbers and letters into the boxes. &#A0;After you're done, then the program writes up a file with the code for your style. &#A0;People could probably crank out styles a lot faster that way!

[guest]

In other words, a style editor.  Yes, that would be useful.

This probably should go under the "suggestion for next version of Cheapo" thread however, not this "character design" thread.

[Essman]

In other words, a style editor. &#A0;Yes, that would be useful.

This probably should go under the "suggestion for next version of Cheapo" thread however, not this "character design" thread.

And in that thread, I thought for sure that I mentioned that I made a style editor. It's complete now and pretty cool.

[Shvegait]

Yeah, you definitely mentioned it... awesome feature it'll be.

[DragonsLover]

I repeat my idea:

I've an idea: What about moles? They're blind and make tunnels everywhere!

I imagine them with sunglasses and a cap! Isn't it?

[Conway]

Yes, moles would be cute!

 Dragon, 'Isn't it?' isn't really a valid question there. 'Isn't it?' normally follows a statement, such as 'This lemming is cute, isn't it?', meaning either you don't know, or you're asking for another opinion. So a better sentence would be:

  I imagine them with sunglasses and a cap! Wouldn't that be good/cool/cute (whatever adjective you want to describe them with)?
or
 I imagine them with sunglasses and a cap! Don't I? But that wouldn't really make sense either, although it would be more grammaticaly correct.

[DragonsLover]

Yeah, this is what I meant.

[Timballisto]

hey, if every one of us made our own personal style of lemmings (which would be alot of work, but if we really wanted it...), wouldn't it still be legal as long as we didn't give them to anyone?

[guest]

It doesn't affect the legality of Cheapo I guess, but the style creator himself is technically violating copyrights I think.  Unless you don't even distirbute any levels that uses the style in question, but then why create the style in the first place?

[Timballisto]

Okay, after reading this, could you answer my question again?

I do not intend for anyone to distribute levels with their own lemmings.  I intend the lemmings to be for personal use only.

You can make your own so you can play levels for your own personal enjoyment.  They're still fun even if you don't distribute them!

[guest]

Sorry, I got confused and forgotten the fact that the styles themselves aren't actually attached with the levels and levelsets, just the name of the styles.  So ignore my comment.

[guest]

I'm obviously not a lawyer, but from a practical point of view, no one's going to bother you for stuff you made that is used entirely by yourself, since it's rather hard for them to find out w/o invasion of privacy if you don't distribute it in any form.

[Conway]

This is a difficult subject, since Cheapo style format isn't widely known. If the game was released with image files of traditional looking lemmings and similar graphics to the original game, which Cheapo referred to to generate the graphics, it would likely be in breach of copyright. But since the graphics files are exclusively reserved for Cheapo, it might be different, especially if the graphics files are all downloaded separately. In fact, is that why in the second edition of Cheapo the style files were downloaded separately from the rest of the game, Essman?

[Essman]

In fact, is that why in the second edition of Cheapo the style files were downloaded separately from the rest of the game, Essman?

The game did come with many style files. They are separate files because when you make a style, it is stored in a file... uh... yeah.

[guest]

This is a difficult subject, since Cheapo style format isn't widely known.

I don't think file format matters at all.  It's just that by separating the styles as separate files and have them distribute separately (namely, not bundled with Cheapo), Cheapo can distance itself away from the I.P. issues associated with the unauthorize use and distribution of the graphics in question.  In other words, the issue gets hand off to the style creators and distributors.

[guest]

This is a difficult subject, since Cheapo style format isn't widely known.

I don't think file format matters at all.  It's just that by separating the styles as separate files and have them distribute separately (namely, not bundled with Cheapo), Cheapo can distance itself away from the I.P. issues associated with the unauthorize use and distribution of the graphics in question.

[guest]

Sorry for the double post.  The computer's having trouble navigating and posting on this forum right now.

[guest]

Sorry for the double post.  The computer's having trouble navigating and posting on this forum right now.

[Conway]

The game did come with many style files. They are separate files because when you make a style, it is stored in a file... uh... yeah.

 I mean the fact that Cheapo comes in two zips, one containing the styles and one containig everything else.

[guest]

Hmm...that's not the way I got it when I downloaded it off somewhere I no longer remember.  I could've remembered wrong though.

Anyhow, this isn't really going to affect the next version of Cheapo anyway, since the default styles that come with it aren't going to use the traditional lemmings graphics.

[?QuErY?]

I have a pretty strange idea, but... Emus, perhaps? As I said, strange idea, but it might work. I got the idea from the fact that I often get called 'Emu' at school. Honest. I have no idea why. By emus, for anyone who doesn't know, I mean these big ostrich type things that live in Australia. They walk on two legs, and I suppose it would be fairly easy to get them to look cute.

[Jeri Moore]

Hi all!
I'm sorry, but I'm really getting tired of all of this "copyright infringement" paranoia that we have nowadays. It seems like we have become a country obsessed with "copyrights". I mean really. Look at any product you buy these days and you can hardly see the product name for all of the little c's in a circle and the tm's and the r's and the "patent pending"s and holy cow! Does anybody know what the original copyright laws were actually designed to do? They were initially intended to compensate the original creator of a work for only a specific time limit! That way, a person would be duly compensated only for a limited amount of time and then guess what? They would actually have to create something else!!!! Copyright laws were never intended to let a person create ONE thing and then live off of it for the rest of their lives. Let alone somebody else that didn't have any thing at all to do with the creation of something to make money off of it!!! Such as corporations and relatives. Copyright laws today actually stifle creativity. Why should anyone want to create something new if they can just keep making money off the same old thing.

Whew! Let me take a breath here.

Ok, what I'm getting at is this. Pysgnosis is no more. DMA Design is no more. Lemmings "officially" is no more. Sony had/has/will have absolutely Zilch to do with Lemmings. Why get all caught up in "infringing" on something that the creators could care less about and sold off a long time ago. I say pooh-pooh on 'em. I love the game(s) and you guys are terrific for keeping it alive. You're not making a dime off of this and it brings a lot of people (such as me) pleasure. As soon as I can find some web space that's cheap I've got some "Cheapo" levels and styles that I want you guys to take a look at.

Keep it up and stop worrying.

Signed.
An Avid Lemming Fan

[guest]

The rant was rather unnecessary.  In fact it almost caused me to fail to read your last paragraph which showed you do mean well at heart.  Your rant, on a careless glance, almost sounded like you are accusing Peter Spada of being mindful of copyright issues.

I would think from the discussion of this thread, and the board in general, that it is clearly possible to keep Lemmings alive while being completely free of copyright issues.  Indeed, I'd even daresay it sparked some creative musings, such as considering alternative character designs besides the same-old pixelated green-haired stick figures.

I believe most of us here, me included, probably "agree" with your rant to some extent, especially in action.  Most of us have little qualms with Custlemm for example despite the fact that it is just a hacked version of the ONML binaries, and hence a pretty unambiguous copyright violation.  Yet it's sitting happily on my computer and I have little intention of removing it anytime soon.    Yet at the same time, I do respect the law, and understand that while it is difficult to draw the balance between protection and overprotectiveness (with abandonware the archetypical example of where copyright laws are doing a great disservice as you noted), as long as the line is there, there will be a place for some form of copyright laws.

I could certainly turn your argument around and say that the same copyright laws that (theoretically) prohibits you from, say, using the original Lemmings graphics is enhancing creativity by forcing you to seek out alternative graphics designs of characters and settings.

So anyway, ahem, let's get back to character design, shall we?

[AstralLemming]

An idea for this came to me last night. They look sort of like lemmings but... not like them. They're quite lemming-like in shape, but they're brown and furry all over, with a sort of lion-type mane, but not as thick, with a ruff round their neck, kangaroo like feet and a short tail with a fluffy 'bob' on the tip(again, think lion).

[drumnbach]

I reckon orangutans would be perfect. They have long arms and legs, and so would be suitable for climbing, bashing, digging etc. Baby orangutans in particular have small bodies and long limbs, which when considering sprite size, would be perfect.

Orangutans are also adorable. And perhaps the game would raise awareness of the species' impending doom in the face of forest cullers.

Is this program (Cheapo 2) still in development btw?

[drumnbach]

Astral, your idea reminds me of this:



Know what it is yet?

[Essman]

Is this program (Cheapo 2) still in development btw?

Life became too busy to work on it as much as I used to, but it's still in development. Your grandchildren will enjoy it.

[Conway]

Your grandchildren will enjoy finishing it for you, Essman!  

[AstralLemming]

Astral, your idea reminds me of this:



Know what it is yet?

Not quite right, to put it lightly...