Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!

[Nepster]

Attached some solutions to levels which had backroute fixes, though I guess all of them are rather close to the intended solutions.

Slipping: möbius' new version of Slipping (i.e. the tseug remake) is quite a bit easier than the original Lemmix level, cf. attached solution. Imo Top Gear and Lixes in Motion are more interesting puzzles than the current Slipping Again and Three Days.

Tinker Tailor Soldier: You mention in the first post that you consider fixing the RR at 50 (to remove a backroute?). Then you should either relax (or remove) the time limit or reduce the number of lixes. As it is, there is not enough time for the very last lix to appear and walk unhindered to the exit (at least with my solution). I am not aware of any solution that the corrent time limit removes, but that doesn't mean anything.

Division of Labor: I remember that on my first few tries, I took about 10-30 seconds to long. So the time limit here definitely removes some solutions.

[Proxima]

Hmm if you consider potentially redoing a solution with tighter timing a challenge, then yes

No, I consider that in timed levels, the challenge is to find a solution that saves the required number of lix within the time limit. Often this means you have taken the wrong approach and need to find a better strategy, which can be an interesting challenge. It does sometimes mean you get the correct method and then merely have to tighten it to pass the level, but that is equally possible with untimed levels with the number of skills used or their placement -- indeed, it happens all the time and is an essential part of the solving process.

I thought the point of Slipping Again was to enforce my solution to the first draft of Slipping, so I'm not sure how and when that was changed. I can't remember exactly what that solution was    though of course all this is on record in the large topic.

[ccexplore]

This is a problem that should be addressed by making some kind of indication in the level or on the menu screen. Btw, I don't think the majority of players, at least players that are used to playing Lemmings are going to experience this frustration because they are used to time limits. Anyway, I still think it's a good idea to have something more noticeable indicating there is a time limit.

As an initial suggestion, maybe some kind of timer icon indicator on the menu screen, and/or flashing the time for the first N game seconds for timed levels.

[ccexplore]

Speaking of consistency, it seems super-weird to have NaOH's level feature a non-standard skill not accessible in the level editor, and only appears once in the entire set with no prior explanations whatsoever.  Not that I have any problems with it personally, and actually under any other circumstances I would probably applaud without hesitation.  But in context of community set it does kinda scream "consistency? what's that?".

...so, any chance we can actually make these kinds of skills accessible in the level editor GUI as well? Maybe an "extra skills" button bring up a second window letting user choose all the weird "skills" the game unofficially supports.  Forcing user to hand-edit the level text file seems somewhat elitist.

[geoo]

Nepster: Lixes in Arms is a backroute. Shouldn't be too hard to fix though.
For Tinker, mobius said there might be backroutes if the SI isn't fixed in IRC, but later said it's ok with the SI set between 30 and 50. I'll leave the time limits for Tinker and Division of Labor to prevent possible backroutes.

No, I consider that in timed levels, the challenge is to find a solution that saves the required number of lix within the time limit. Often this means you have taken the wrong approach and need to find a better strategy, which can be an interesting challenge. [...]

Hmm, for that to actually happen I think the time limits on the above mentioned levels are a bit lax though. I don't remember coming up with a solution to any of these levels that didn't work after tightening the timing.

As an initial suggestion, maybe some kind of timer icon indicator on the menu screen, and/or flashing the time for the first N game seconds for timed levels.

Yeah, I think the timer flashing in red at the beginning is a good suggestion which, I believe, is already on the wishlist.

I thought the point of Slipping Again was to enforce my solution to the first draft of Slipping, so I'm not sure how and when that was changed. I can't remember exactly what that solution was    though of course all this is on record in the large topic.

I didn't even remember there was a specifically intended solution for this one. Feel free trying to enforce it.

ccx: NaOH's level is also the only one to feature the occult set, so you could consider it a special graphics with special feature level. Those special skills aren't really that useful, they sure are not on the same level as the main 15 skills. I mean you can always come up with obscure uses (e.g. the shrugger as a walker that only works for cancelling skills but not turning around, or the burner use here), but they are rather limited. I mean it wouldn't hurt to have a second panel with these weird skills, though it'd also encourage their use, and most of them don't even have a panel symbol, so it's really just more of an easter egg.

[mobius]

I've sort of remembered the backroutes to Tinker Tailor Soldier Lix [actually this was almost the original solution until Proxima found the harder one];
-If you let RR as is and but have no time limit; you can wait until the a lemming near the end comes out, and have him build to the top.
-then the last one digs and mines to stall until the builder is finished.
Then on top both will mine, the one turning around to free the others.

-If you put in a time limit but have the RR adjustable you can do the same thing essentially; saving time by upping the RR.

However; it sounds like the time could be relaxed a little [add more] it doesn't have to be as tight as Nepster is saying it is.

--------
If Tseug's Slipping doesn't get used I might put it in project Cappybara.

[Nepster]

Thanks for explaining the possible backroute in Tinker.

However; it sounds like the time could be relaxed a little [add more] it doesn't have to be as tight as Nepster is saying it is.

I don't think you have to change the time limit if you leave the SI at 30-50 (of fix it e.g. at 40). My previous comment is only relevant if you still wish to fix the SI at 50 - otherwise please ignore it.

[ccexplore]

Seems like it has been rather quiet on IRC the past few days with respect to the community set, compared to a week ago.  Have people stopped playing it or just getting stuck on some of the levels?  (Or maybe even finished them all?)

[Akseli]

Aaaand my Hopeless solutions! I decided to post them after solving 30 levels out of 40.

1: Recycling Plant – One of my favourites, a shining crowd control level that also has an overly underused graphics style.
2: The Hotel in Hell - Hardish for its place.
8: Yuki, Muon, Madobe Nite – Overtiered.
16: Heed the Traffic Light – Far too easy for its place.
20: Metal City Mayhem – One of my favourites, a lovely compilation of some of my favourite original Lemmings levels.
28: Devil's Right Hand – Overtiered.
30: Rhapsody in Blue – There was two tricks that had to be realized, otherwise could still be a bit too easy for its place.
35: The Mon0lith – Overtiered multiple ratings.

Have Another Try: Thanks, so I'm wondering what makes this level so special to you. When I made it I felt it was just another puzzle level, at least I touched it up a little to make it look prettier, at the beginning it was really just a wall of bricks.

The puzzle itself is one of the cleanest ones, there's no extra fiddling in it, only clear, easily performed movements. Climber re-use and the fact that it's one of your more decorated levels are also pluses. Best levels are those that give glee after solving them or during playthrough, no matter how difficult is the level.

For Round Trip and potentially Slipping, if I move those down to Daunting, which levels do you think would be most fit to replace them in Vicious?

I looked again at Daunting levels and I feel that there actually isn't that big difference compared to Vicious levels in terms of difficulty. :I Here was the trickiest Daunting levels for me, but there's surely other levels as well. In my opinion though even Daunting is too much for Round Trip, I mean, the only things that make this level non-trivial are:

The digger placement and climber-bombing through walls.

[Proxima]

Comments on solutions to my levels:

Ascending and Descending: Impressive, another completely distinct but valid solution 
Labyrinth of Despair: Another beautiful solution and you even saved 100%!
Metal City Mayhem: Again very beautiful and completely different from my solution!
Path of Wickedness: Give me a few moments to lift my jaw off the floor. You managed to reach the other exit. And it's not a backroute, it's just an accidental feature that makes the level even better now you've discovered it.
Rhapsody in Blue: Slightly off the intended solution, but I'm okay with that as the price paid for non-time-limiting the level.
The Hotel in Hell: Another completely different solution that I like very much -- you're on a roll!
You Only Get One Bash at It: Yet another "colour me amazed that you managed to pull off something like that" one. Perhaps surprisingly (given the level's position), the intended solution is not nearly so convoluted.
Yuki, Muon, Madobe Nite: This is a backroute, of course. Give me time to fix it before talking about moving it down a rating, mmmkay?

[Nepster]

Heed the Traffic Light: I wondered as well about its placement in mid-Hopeless, but it seems geoo had more problems solving it than you had or I expected there to be.

Devil's Right Hand: I still like this solution. Nevertheless there is a one-way-gadget which is even marked as such with a red arrow and your solution passes it in the wrong direction. I am not sure, whether we want such a "feature" in the community level pack, as other players may think we deliberately mislead them and thus feel cheated. Depending on how everyone else feels about this issue, I have two new versions for you:
V3: Removes only a backroute I found yesterday myself (by abusing the metal placement in the construction of the one-way-gadgets). Akseli's solution remains.
V4: Removes both my backroute and Akseli's solution (and unfortunately afaik geoo's as well).

EDIT: The previous versions did not completely remove my backroute. Please download V3 and/or V4 again (if should be called "New" at the end).

[Akseli]

And here are my capy/Outtakes solutions.

My favourites of the levels I didn't know earlier:
A Soulful Bounding Leap - A tricky one, I wonder if I solved this correctly, is this too bizarre for the community pack?
Leap of the Locust - Though a bit simple and bare-looking.
Play Ball! - This was the hardest Outtakes level for me, I wonder if I solved it correctly, I used my trick here...
Top Gear - Though I agree that this resembles another level that's already in the set, so it's understandable to not include it.

I don't like at all repeat levels that don't have totally different solutions. If at first comes an X-of-everything level and then the same terrain is repeated later in the level set, it bugs me insanely. That usually means that the solution in the harder level works in the easier level, too. Repeat levels are okay only if they really can't be solved in the same way. They are more bearable if the first versions are tutorial levels or other really easy levels, but I don't like that either. Outtakes had lots of easier versions of the levels that were in the late ratings of the level set, I'm fine with that they're not included. Currently Lix set has at least Simple 1 and Simple 3 as levels that are repeated later, but I think I can cope with those few.

[Akseli]

More solutions for Bipolar Maniac and The Mon0lith.

[geoo]

I'm glad you loved Recycling Plant, I consider it the best level I made, and I also put a lot of effort into its design.

As for the outtakes.
A Soulful Bounding Leap is a good level IMO, and you found a very interesting solution to it. There's a variety of solution overall.
Play Ball!: Yes, your solution is intended, mobius' original version of the level required to save less until I found the 100% solution which is the same as yours pretty much.
Top Gear: I plan to put two levels from the outtakes back in, and right now Top Gear and Lixes in Motion are my favourites for that. But other opinions are welcome. A Soulful Bounding Leap and Play Ball are interesting levels too, and unlike the other two candidates don't resemble existing levels too closely.

Some backroute fixes, download new version of the pack for them:

Bipolar Maniac: removed both of Akseli's backroutes.
Devil's Right Hand: I used Nepster's version v4New, I managed to execute my solution in this version, even though timing gets a lot trickier there.
Love is Over: Removed the basher to eliminate Akseli's backroute. Steve's original solution uses the basher, but there are variations that don't need it.
The Mon0lith: I realized I have more leeway with the time limit than I thought, so I made the mon0lith bigger without increasing the time limit too much to hopefully eliminate Akseli's routes.
We're in this one together: Made poles thicker so you can't bomb through them.
Lixes in arms: removed Nepster's backroute.

Furthermore I changed 'The Pit' to feature the more interesting solution and make the builder placement easier.

Other levels you (Akseli) might want to retry due to changes from mid-July:
ittakestime, alieninvasion, chasm, gethype, thecrimsonroom. (Nepster already tried the levels that address his backroutes again.)

More changes to come later (see first post for a current list).

[Akseli]

Here are my solutions for updated levels It Takes Time to Build, Dividing Three By Two, The Crimson Room, Get Hype, Bipolar Maniac and We're In This One Together.