Author Topic: cLemmings  (Read 14761 times)

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Offline namida

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2014, 11:57:53 pm »
Some more Havoc:

Havoc 9: This level is the type that might annoy some people, though I personally don't find it too bad. I thought it was fairly good, though not one of your best.
Havoc 10: This is a very good level!
Havoc 11: I think I backrouted this one, though I don't see any other way... if this is a backroute, this is another example of you Kanye Westing about your steel area placement skills. Keep in mind that the ideal placement is *not* perfectly in line with the block itself (this is something I myself didn't realise until very recently; so even LPII often has the same problem) when using traditional Lemmix (on the other hand, in NeoLemmix, perfectly aligned with the block *is* the ideal placement, although autosteel somewhat negates the need for it anyway).
Havoc 12: Another really good level. :) Took me a while to get this one!
Havoc 13: Yet another hidden trap, and yet again, a case where terrain that serves no other purpose has been placed there seemingly for the sole purpose of hiding a trap. And yet again, this is a level where apart from hidden traps, it's a REALLY good level. Now in this case, the trap actually does add something to the level - so I'm definitely not saying remove the trap; I'm just saying remove the terrain hiding the trap.

I'll continue later.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline exit

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #61 on: July 18, 2014, 02:15:27 am »
I'll answer the posts in order.
-------------------------------

Havoc 2: You're meant to be able to ignore the lower-left entrance.
Havoc 3: No, I didn't expect that, but the your solution uses the same trick as the intended solution. The level's difficulty comes from discovering that trick.
Havoc 4: That's a backroute.
Havoc 5: This level has many different solutions.
Havoc 8: I'll have to move the water down so that it tricks the player into thinking that it'll swallow them.
-------------------------------

I don't really have anything to say.
-------------------------------

The time limit wasn't for a challenge. It was meant to just be something that you have to take into account. You've seen some levels with absurd time limits (usually nine minutes). Those levels are meant to be such levels where you don't need to worry about the time.
-------------------------------

With this post, ccexplore unintentionally showed that, at least up to now, there are exactly the same amount of ONML levels with hidden traps as ONMcL.
-------------------------------

This level was half tested. I think I might've actually accomplished to get the lemming to stop with a pixel under the steel (I think, I'm still going to move the water down so that the trigger area isn't in the level).
-------------------------------

Havoc 10: Thank you.
Havoc 11: That is a backroute. It will be fixed by making more steel, all the way up to the trigger area. Try and solve the level as if that were in place.
Havoc 13: That wasn't the actual solution. I'll add some icepuffers into the left wall so that you can't do that. Try and solve it this way, too. I might remove the terrain hiding the trap. Might.

Offline namida

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #62 on: July 18, 2014, 02:32:06 am »
If the water isn't meant to kill the lemmings, then what's the point of having it there at all?

Likewise, for Havoc 13, unless that terrain *does* form part of the intended solution, there is literally no reason to keep it there hiding the trap. If it does, then perhaps consider other ways of making the trap's presence noticable. Or, of course - just like I said about buildery levels in your first pack - if you don't have them overly frequently, it's not as much of a big deal when one does show up, and can even become an interesting occasional twist; just like how having every level being a buildery worker lemming level gets annoying, whereas if that concept is only used occasionally, especially if the levels are well designed, it can be really good - indeed, as far as buildery levels go, I think you've gotten it right with ONMcL - they're there, but they're infrequent enough that they're certianly not annoying, and most of them are quite fun levels to play. (Or if they are frequent (since I haven't really noticed an excess of them), then the ones this time are interesting enough that the player doesn't end up noticing the abundance of them. Either way is fine.)

Ultimately, it's your level pack and it's up to you how you design it - but if you keep doing annoying things like the excessive buildery levels in the first pack, or the excessive hidden traps in this one, you're going to end up putting people off wanting to play your levels - case in point, Wicked 20, how I initially decided I couldn't be bothered with it because I'd had enough of the hidden traps; when I went back to play it in the end, I thought it was actually a pretty good level (aside from the traps being hidden). It's quite possible some people might get so sick of them that they don't even *get to* that level, let alone bother to complete it.


And one other thing I'd strongly advise is (I do this myself these days), do not release your pack until you have a working replay for every level in it, even if you don't plan to ever release those replays. It's just a failproof way to ensure every level is possible. Don't just rely on "yeah, I made one a while back" - testing every replay should be the last thing you do before you upload the pack. I myself tested all my LPIII replays earlier today; and in doing so, found that one level had actually been rendered impossible by backroute fixes that I had forgotten to test after - now, if I had've released it without catching that, that would've looked really bad (especially due to what I said about blocking out cheat codes, and the fact that this level was very early in its rank).
One tip for this - since you're just making sure there's a working solution (there's no reason for you to actually watch how to complete your own level, unless you want to) - load the replay then just hold down the spacebar until you see the post-level screen. If the level is passed, you know that level is fine. If not, then watch the replay properly to see *why* it doesn't work - while it could be that a change has actually rendered the level impossible, more often it's that a change has simply broken that replay and the level is still possible (but without completing it again, you won't know for sure).
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline exit

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #63 on: July 18, 2014, 03:06:14 am »
The water is meant for killing the lemmings. The you can't dig low enough, though, to build to the steel without plugging it up because of the trigger area.

Like I said, that your solution isn't the intended solution. The intended solution is completely different, and isn't "buildery".

I understand. I wasn't meaning to be all this-is-mine-and-I'll-do-it-how-I-want-to.

Alright.

I assure you, all of the next levels were tested and completed by me, so you don't have to worry about any more impossible levels.

Offline namida

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #64 on: July 18, 2014, 04:06:10 am »
No no, I wasn't saying it was buildery! :P Well I guess actually my solution somewhat is, but it's not in the annoying sense (compare to Taxing 14 or Mayhem 1 (of the Original lemmings, not cLemmings)).


What do you mean about Havoc 8? First you say you were going to move the trigger area outside the level (so it won't kill the lemmings), but now you're saying it is meant to kill them and meant to prevent building to the steel without plugging it? I'm confused... xD
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline exit

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #65 on: July 18, 2014, 03:31:22 pm »
I meant your solution, which if it was the intended solution, would make the level buildery.

Let me clarify. The water was supposed to kill the lemmings if you dug too far. But, you can't dig far enough down to be able to hit yourself on the steel without plugging it. I'm going to move the water because you can't do that.

Offline namida

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2014, 10:29:50 pm »
Havoc 14: I'm fairly sure this was a backroute (given that it relies on slipping past a kinda badly-placed trap), but I'm not completely sure. This level did take a while to solve, although this is mostly because of it relying on hidden details. Also, yet another hidden trap right by the exit, although by this point, I was fully expecting that to happen. Finally, the one way arrows are kind of hard to see on the icicle - although my ultimate solution ended up not really being affected by them anyway.
Havoc 15: ...more hidden traps, in yet again, a level that's otherwise really good. At least there wasn't one by the exit this time. This level was also a bit on the easy side for its position.
Havoc 16: FAR too easy for its position.
Havoc 17: Same here. This would've been a really good level for Wild or Wicked, but in late-Havoc, it's just too easy for that.
Havoc 18: Well, by now, you can guess from a mile away that the traps are there in this one, so it wasn't such a big deal. This level wasn't too bad, though again a bit on the easy side.
Havoc 19: If my solution is the intended one, that was actually quite creative. :P
Havoc 20: Also a bit on the easy side, though this was a fairly decent level.



Overall, for the pack as a whole - the first thing I'll say is that there's definitely a lot of improvement over cLemmings here. ONMcL has a lot of *annoying* levels with the hidden traps and stuff; but on the other hand, at least most of the levels aren't tedious or repetitive this time. I definitely once again will stress the need to test your levels before release. And most importantly - there are also many levels in here that are simply BRILLIANT! While ONMcL may have some new problems of its own, I can definitely see that you've taken into account the criticisms from cLemmings. Yes, ONMcL has a buildery level here and there - and you know what? It did not bother me even ONCE, precisely because they're only "here and there", not every level - in fact they often turned out to be quite fun when they showed up, this time. Take for example Havoc 1 - it's almost purely just building, but because it wasn't the Xth in a series of many buildery levels in a row (and also because it was a nicely designed level that required some thinking beyond just building to the exit), it was still a fun level.

As myself and Simon have said, the hidden traps (and hidden exits in two cases) are very annoying. Hiding critical elements of the level does not add anything to the puzzle in most cases, only to the frustration. Of course, that doesn't mean they can't be used at all, but there should either be hints as to where they are, or room for error - for example, if it's going to be in a worker lemming segment, put the hidden trap fairly close to the start of it, and in all cases, don't make it a case of "if the hidden trap gets you, you'll need to start the level again because you've lost too many lemmings already", rather make it "you can lose a lemming or two, and it'll slow you down, but you can still complete the level" - take a look at Nice 19 from LPII; it has a hidden trap near the start, but it also allows you to lose a fairly decent amount of lemmings, so it's not as much of a huge deal. Another case is Sneaky 6 (also LPII), this one has a lot of hidden traps but if you'll play it, you'll see why they work well for that level rather than being a nuisance. A couple of other levels in the same pack do have them with no real redeeming factor - but in this case, the rarity of them is what makes it not so problematic, and also in a lot of levels they're out of the way where you'll usually never encounter them - Cunning 17 has a hidden trap, most players probably never even noticed it's there, because the correct solution doesn't cross the trap's path in the first place.

Once again, a lot of the complaints I have about these levels are things I myself used to do in a lot of my levels a long time ago - so I can understand how it might seem like a challenging idea, rather than an annoying one. But you have to take into account, as I said - you know all the details of your levels, what's hidden where, etc. Other players don't. If you're going to make a level based on guesswork, there should be hints, or the levels that involve such should be very sparse, etc.

Finally, don't get the wrong idea about me having a lot of criticisms - because, as I've noted in their individual cases, there are also a LOT of excellent levels this time, and many of the ones that have some frustrating factor (such as hidden traps) are good levels that could be brought to their full potential with some minor adjustments; either removing the hidden traps, making them visible, or giving hints as to where they are. If a few are left over where none of these are an option; it probably won't be such a big deal when it's only the odd level here and there, rather than being almost a staple design of the pack.


In my opinion, it took me two large packs of somewhat cruddy levels (Cheapo LP1 and LP2) before I started to make mostly good ones, and then another two (Cheapo LP3 and JHLR) that were mostly good but still had some really poorly designed levels in there, before I really started to nail it in LPDOS. Even that had some really bad levels (Danger 9, PSYCHO 2, and a few that were replaced with better levels in the V7 update); I would say LPII is my first really high quality pack - and yeah, that was my sixth large level pack. So, don't give up - it does take a while to get there, but I can tell you're definitely an author with the potential to do it; I can definitely see in the future you and your level packs being seen in the same way that mine are currently!

When you've done the update to fix the two impossible levels and patch backroutes in others (and hopefully address some of the issues in some levels), I'll have a look at the new versions. :)
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline exit

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #67 on: July 19, 2014, 11:07:27 pm »
Havoc 14: This is a backroute, but it uses the same characteristics as the intended solution. There's no real way to fix that, so I'll just keep it there.
Havoc 15: Never saw that option. I'll put a trap in the nook there (will be visible, somewhat) to enforce the actual solution.
Havoc 16: I can't believe I never saw that. Will definitely fix that in the new version.
Havoc 17: Yet another backroute. The actual solution is much more difficult.
Havoc 18: This is yet another backroute. I will fix that by putting a piece of steel in the iceblower (which cuts off the gap).
Havoc 19: That isn't the right solution. I will add a piece of steel jutting down to cut off the building up that way.
Havoc 20: Not the intended solution, yet again. I will fix this also.

Well, thanks for the feedback.

You'll probably be more satisfied with Holiday cLemmings. No traps. :P

I'm not getting the wrong idea about criticism. I'm simply replying.

Okay.

Offline exit

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #68 on: July 19, 2014, 11:43:24 pm »
Well, that was quick. Check the topic post for the new version.

Offline namida

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #69 on: July 20, 2014, 02:10:34 am »
I notice you've included all LVL files rather than just those that have changed - do you by any chance have a list of the ones you've made modifications to?
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline exit

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #70 on: July 20, 2014, 05:31:57 pm »
You don't need to make it have the lvl files internally in it. It's easier for me to simply have all of them in one place (my OhNo folder), and I can access them there. Then, when I edit them, I simply compress the folder into a zip file and put it on the website/forums. You don't need to put them in the executable. All you need to put in is the custom Main file. Sorry for not telling you sooner.

Offline namida

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #71 on: July 20, 2014, 08:40:28 pm »
No, I'm asking which ones have changed so I know which ones I need to play again. :)
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #72 on: July 20, 2014, 09:27:06 pm »
Oh.

Here:
Crazy: 12
Wild: N/A
Wicked: 5,8
Havoc: 4,8,15,16,17,18,19

There you go.

Offline exit

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #73 on: July 27, 2014, 06:08:04 pm »
Sorry for not posting that often about cLemmings news and such, but I've been devoting most of my free time to building levels for Holiday cLemmings.

More info on Holiday cLemmings:
Holiday cLemmings will include all four Holiday Lemmings difficulties, but the difficulties will rise in order (e.g. Frost, Hail, Flurry, Blitz instead of Frost/Flurry on one difficulty and Hail/Blitz on the other). Also, Holiday cLemmings will be much more difficult than Holiday Lemmings (though not necessarily harder than the other cLemmings games). If you are playing on a level that takes a lot of time, you can use the B key to skip back a frame, and hold it to skip far back (I don't get why this isn't documented anywhere). You can also use this on timed bomber levels so that you don't have to restart and remember the spot you bombed from previously. Just like ONMcL, Holiday cLemmings won't have a levellist.

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #74 on: August 03, 2014, 07:53:49 pm »
Well, I'm finally giving a progress report on cLemmings.

The last three ratings are complete! I only have to make sixteen more levels until I'm done.