Author Topic: cLemmings  (Read 16449 times)

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Offline namida

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2014, 11:50:03 pm »
Played through Tame. Most of these levels are quite simple (though with nice designs) so not much to say, though a few I will mention something on:

Tame 12: My first thought was to go under the water (I tend to think like that xD). I'm not sure how I feel about the water extending all the way across. xD In a higher rank, I'd think that was a great evil twist, but it seems a bit excessive for Tame. Perhaps make it visible for as far as it extends (since going under is prevented either way)?
Tame 13: I really like this level. It's still easy, but does require a bit of thinking beyond the normal.
Tame 14: This one feels quite similar to Tame 12 at first glance, although it plays fairly differently.
Tame 17: Here's an example of a builder level that's still pretty good. Firstly, because there aren't so many builder levels, it doesn't get annoying so much when one does show up. Secondly, it retains some interesting twists - for example, you can't bomb a blocker on the bottom as the lemmings will fall out the bottom of the level, so you have to work around that somehow. The obvious solution is to just not block off the crowd, but then you need to take extra care to avoid too many lemmings splatting. This is an example of builder-heavy levels done right.
Tame 18: I assume you have noticed that the exit doesn't work without an extra builder by it? Also - perhaps it wouldn't hurt to move this level so that it isn't right next to Tame 17, since both are fairly buildery levels?
Tame 19: This is a fairly good level too. Here's a small challenge - beat the level, saving 100%, using only 3 of the same skill (as in, pick one skill and use it up to 3 times, not use each skill up to 3 times). This isn't very hard, but it's not immediately obvious.
Tame 20: It's a good level functionally, but visually it's quite boring. Some extra decorative terrain would probably go quite nicely on this one.

I made replays if you want them, though for Tame I don't think they'll be that interesting. If you want them now let me know, otherwise I'll just include them when I've done further.

Anyway, my first impression was right - these levels are (at least so far) a HUGE improvement over the original cLemmings! Well done! :)

Offline namida

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2014, 12:53:32 am »
Crazy:

Crazy 2: Some of the traps aren't visible until it's too late. Though I guess that's not so bad since the level doesn't require 100% or anything.
Crazy 3: Nice level - it's a similar concept (though much easier, if you don't take backroutes in my level into account) to Death Row from LPDOS. Though the save requirement is very low...
Crazy 8: This level is very easy compared to the ones around it (though not a bad level), even if you aim for 100%.
Crazy 9: Uh... any reason this level doesn't have a name? :P Very good level though with many different solutions, none of which are too easy.
Crazy 10: I'm not sure if this level might be a bit hard for its position; but it's a pretty neat level.
Crazy 12: Hm... are you sure this one is actually possible? With the positions of the icethrowers and terrain, it seems like there's no way to get across to the right side of the level without any floaters... there could just be something I'm missing, though.
Crazy 13: Nice level, though a bit on the easy side.
Crazy 14: I'm almost certain the solution I found is a backroute. (Check the replays)
Crazy 16: This is a pretty cool level, though a tad easy. Suggestion: Reduce builders to 5, increase requirement to 98% or even 100%. (It can be 98%'d - not sure about 100% - with even less than 5, but we don't want to make it TOO hard since it's still only the second rank.)
Crazy 17: Possibly my favorite level so far. This one's really good.
Crazy 18: This one is also very neat.

In general, I'm noticing that you're coming up with levels that use different methods of crowd control rather than always blockers, as well as some levels which don't involve crowd control or where the level's design already takes care of that. This is really good, it adds a lot more variety to the levels. :) I was correct in my observation that you have a lot of potential, it seems. :P

Attached my solutions for all of Tame and Crazy (except Crazy 12, which as I said, I can't see any way to solve).

Offline exit

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2014, 03:36:44 am »
My reply:

Tame 12: The water doesn't extend all the way across. It's just that the water goes right up to the edge of the snow clump, and then stops.
Tame 18: I didn't know about that (it's hard to judge the exit trigger area on the snow, and I didn't want to waste my time testing it because I needed to finish the game).
Crazy 2: I think some of the traps are semi-visible (by one pixel, but it looks like those little green dots in the rock cracks).
Crazy 3: The save requirement is low because of the intended solution. You probably found a backroute. I won't change it because I don't want this to be exactly difficulty-jumping as Oh No More Lemmings was, where one level you can lose half of them and the next you can only lose one (as in the case of Tame 20 to Crazy 1). Though the difficulty will rise to Oh No More Lemmings difficulty and even exceed it (you'll find this most noticeable in the Wicked and Havoc ratings).
Crazy 9: I'll make that a feature (just like some of the levels have an intentional release rate of zero, which is meant to put people off).
Crazy 12: I'm not actually sure this one is possible (I didn't bother testing it). I'll remove the icepuffers in the next update, but for now, just skip it (if you don't know how to use cheatcodes, go into the code entering screen, and enter "difficultyxx". For example, enter Crazy13, and that will take you to Crazy 13. I'm not going to fix it straight away because I'm taking a break from building/editing levels). Sorry.
Crazy 14: The backroute is obviously harder than the actual solution (to figure out, but you found it because you're used to finding the hard way of doing something), which is going around, so I won't fix it.
Crazy 16: Your solution is a backroute, but, like the previous, it's harder than the intended solution.
Crazy 17: I should've not built this for Oh No More cLemmings. I should've saved it for Holiday cLemmings. I notice it (and always have noticed it)hard to make puzzle levels out of snow. You'll see a couple here and there, but not often. One to note, though:
Quote from: Spoiler
Havoc 18
Crazy 18: Thank you. I try to make my levels be at least "neat".

I look forward to more feedback.

Offline namida

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2014, 06:37:16 am »
I'll play more a bit later - but anyway, re: Crazy 12, rather than removing the throwers, I'd suggest adding a couple of floaters and putting it in one of the higher ranks.

I agree about finding the snow level hard to make challenging levels in - I do have a couple of examples of them (PSYCHO 8 and PSYCHO 18 from LPDOS; though the former is more a case of the intended solution being deceptively hidden; the latter is a genuinely hard level) but in general, the rough-edged sets I find a bit tricky.

Offline namida

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2014, 01:56:44 pm »
Wild:

Wild 7: This was a pretty cool level! :) I like how it's based on the placement of the bombers, not timing them (due to having blockers). Challenge: Try to save 91%. (I don't think 92% is possible.)
Wild 8: This is a really good level! :)
Wild 9: I'm going to take a guess and say this is another one that you didn't test? Despite that, it IS possible (and even 100%able), but relies on steel destruction, albeit due to what appears to be badly-placed steel areas rather than outright glitches.
Wild 10: I thought this was a real good level until bam, hidden trap at the end. :/ Although hidden traps are not nearly as annoying as some of the things in the first pack (and once again, at least it's in a level that has room to lose a few lemmings), they are starting to feel a bit overused by this point.
Wild 11: This level is really good! :D
Wild 12: This one too. :)
Wild 13: Three in a row! :D
Wild 14: The steel areas in this one seem to be set very poorly (see attached image for something that should NOT be happening - the miner stopped there because of hitting steel). I remember you claiming you're "really good at placing steel areas" and "better than DMA are at it"; this level very strongly suggests otherwise (so does Wild 9 for that matter, though not as badly). However, steel area issues aside, this is another pretty good level.
Wild 16: I'm guessing this is another one you didn't test based on the exit not working properly (need to build a step under it). However, I also have to ask why so many builders, since (including the one to make a step up to the exit) you only need 3... (maybe even 2)
Wild 17: This one is pretty neat! :)
Wild 19: This one is REALLY good!


These, again, are mostly very good levels. However - I'll stress the need to test them before release! A tight schedule is no excuse - take a look at Lemmings Plus II, it was made in just approximately three weeks, despite having a comparable number of levels to ONMcL (LPII has 105) and custom graphic sets. Despite this, every level was also tested*. Besides, this isn't a professional project where you have a release date to stick to - if you need extra time to test it, then take an extra day before releasing it. Besides avoiding impossible or glitchy levels, another good reason to test them is so that you have replays handy if you want/need to show anyone how to solve a specific level.

* Actually, I will confess there's one LPII level that wasn't tested, but it's one where there is absolutely zero doubt that it's possible - Cunning 21. (The level in question consists of nothing but assigning floaters quickly - the difficulty in it comes from the fact that you can't pause, and both the release rate and save requirement are very high.) However, I did test the level before anyone actually discovered it exists, at least (in LPII, level 21 of each rank is a secret level; you can't access it simply by beating level 20, but have to find a hidden "portal" to it). xD

Offline exit

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2014, 05:27:37 pm »
Wild 7: Thanks. The level had an earlier version which was to be placed in Havoc which only gave you 15 bombers (and looked different and was different).
Wild 9: I actually did test this level. Not badly placed steel areas, but glitches (check it in the editor).
Wild 10: Yes, the hidden traps are a bit overused in the Wild rating, but the level would be a Crazy level without the tricky trigger areas of the traps.
Wild 11: Thank you. It's hard to make bubble levels that aren't long builder, basher, miner, digger levels.
Wild 12: Thanks again. This level is one of my personal favorites.
Wild 13: You seem to like the somewhat-short-and-simple-with-a-little-bit-of-every-task style (as in the end of Taxing, which you really liked).
Wild 14: The if you check in the editor, you'll see that the left steel piece is not big enough to cover all three steel plates, so I used the center piece to cover the rest. It isn't "poorly placed".
Wild 16: That time it was fully intentional (that isn't an excuse; it seriously was intentional). The builders are for the intentional solution (go around up through the big space). The route you took is an intentional backroute, which I noticed while testing the level.
Wild 17: This one was meant to be a small puzzle, yet not one that is too hard to figure out.
Wild 19: This one I'm particularly proud of.

You'll have a lot of fun with the Wicked rating. That's when it'll catch up with Oh No More Lemmings.

Offline namida

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2014, 11:12:35 pm »
Judging from the demo levels, it does look like Wicked is going to get very interesting. I'll probably play it at some point today; though I really need to get to making more levels for LPIII too. :P

Offline namida

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2014, 04:49:33 am »
Wicked:

Wicked 2 - I managed to solve it now! :D
Wicked 5 - I think I might've backrouted this one, as I only used one bomber (to blow up the crowd control blocker) and saved 98%. :P
Wicked 7 - Sorry to say, but this level was nothing short of annoying as hell. Invisible traps galore (including one BEHIND THE EXIT), in a level that only allows you to lose one lemming (and good luck getting a second worker out if you lose your first one), and trying to avoid them in a crowded area with that kind of overhead terrain... and water hidden completely behind terrain in case you do the logical thing and go under them? If you want to avoid people going under, either put *visible* water, or steel, or something like that... this is, sorry to say, a really bad level.
Wicked 8 - This one is pretty good, though. :)
Wicked 9 - So, either part of the water is fake and has hidden terrain behind it, or there's an invisible exit floating somewhere in the air, or there's an exit hidden somewhere in the terrain the lemmings start on that I'm meant to find and get to with only 9 timed bombers to destroy terrain. Or, a level that's impossible, and so obviously so that even lack of testing is not an excuse for not realising it; as three builders will very clearly not make it across that gap, even without taking into account how to trap and then release the crowd (which is possible, but would rely on VERY precise timed bombers). I'm not going to even try to guess which, let alone solve it - this is an awful level.
Wicked 10 - This one wasn't so bad, a bit on the easy side for Wicked though.
Wicked 11 - Another awful one. If you're going to make levels with hidden objects like this, you need to either give strong hints as to what's where, or give plenty of skills to spare and (if it's traps) lemmings to lose. At least this one gives bashers and diggers, though, rather than just timed bombers - so I did solve this one.
Wicked 12 - The time limit doesn't really add any challenge to the level, it's just a nuisance. Apart from that, this is a good level.
Wicked 13 - This is pretty good. It's a bit on the easy side though; if you increased the requirement to 100%, it'd be good for its position.
Wicked 14 - Not a bad level. Though I'm not sure if you realised that what I did is an option... I know I've overlooked it in some of my levels, even though other levels I've made specifically rely on it. :P
Wicked 15 - I'm pretty sure I backroute'd this one. :P If what I found is the intended solution, it's quite well hidden, though.
Wicked 16 - Very nice level! :D
Wicked 17 - This is also really good.
Wicked 18 - Another hidden trap, and another buried-but-doesn't-look-like-it's-buried exit... apart from these two things, this is a fairly good level, though. But yeah - there is literally no reason why this trap needs to be hidden; in fact it feels like that terrain was placed there solely for the purpose of hiding the trap. Likewise, if you're going to bury the exit (which in some cases has its uses, though in this one I'd say it doesn't really add anything to the level), make it very clear that it's buried - the entire doorway should be covered, or at least part way up it; the exit shouldn't look like it isn't buried.
Wicked 19 - This level is AWESOME! :D
Wicked 20 - Yet another level with loads of hidden traps (no, they don't count as "visible" if they blend in so well with the terrain that it's still impossible to tell they're there until one gets you). I got down to the ground, but after realising there wasn't just one, but many hidden traps there, I didn't bother to completely solve this level - sorry, but the hidden traps are getting to the point that they're the ONMcL equivalent of build-build-build levels in the first pack; and once again, it's in a level where you don't have many lemmings or skills to spare.

Replays attached for all except 9 and 20; those two are missing for the reasons mentioned above.

Don't get me wrong - there's a LOT of good levels here, and definitely much improved over the first pack, but you really need to cut down on the traps, or at least make it clearer where they are (since there's definitely nothing wrong with traps in themself; it's the way they're used that's an annoyance here). And I'll definitely say, you've done a great job of having more variety than every level being a builder-heavy worker lemming level, so well done on that! :) I'm also not saying hidden traps are something you should *never* do - I have a few levels that use them too! (in some cases, looking back, they're used quite poorly and I probably should slap myself for using them in those ways; other ones aren't too bad) - but excessive use of them, or using them in cases where there aren't plenty of lemmings (and if nessecary, skills) to spare, is annoying; and putting them near the ends of levels probably isn't the best design decision either.

But yeah, as I said - I can definitely see, even between these two packs, some HUGE improvements in your level designs; so definitely don't give up on it, we need more good level designers! Perhaps, I'm not sure if this is the case but just on the offchance - if you have a design that didn't turn out so great, realise that sometimes you simply have to discard the level in question and make another one to take its place. In small level packs (the 10-level ones that most people tend to make) you'll probably have to get rid of the level altogether; but in large packs like this one you can often, maybe with some modification, use it as one of the lower-rank X-of-everything levels. (One example of such - although it's still relatively late in the pack - is Danger 24 from LPDOS; this was originally a PSYCHO level, but got demoted to a filler in an earlier position, in this case due to simply having far too many backroutes that couldn't be fixed very neatly. Though ironically, the new level that took its place became the most backroute-plagued level in LPDOS anyway; so I guess PSYCHO 23 must just be a cursed slot. xD)

Offline exit

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2014, 03:50:39 pm »
Wicked 2: Pretty ingenious, huh?
Wicked 5: That is a backroute. Will have to be fixed in the next update.
Wicked 7: Sorry. I knew that level was going to be hated. I think Havoc will please you more.
Wicked 8: Your solution is a backroute, and will be fixed by putting a long gap between the bottom of the level and the bricks.
Wicked 9: Don't give up on a level just because you don't like. It's obviously impossible to go to the visible exit (yes, it was tested). Cheating a level just because you don't like it doesn't work. Come on, THIS. IS. WICKED. Right?
Quote from: Spoiler
The exit is buried at the edge of the screen. Start bombing at the spot in the picture, going forward by two or three pixels for the next bombing.
Wicked 10: I don't think this is that easy. It's meant to be somewhat of a break.
Wicked 11: I'm glad you did. I said the levels are going to catch up to ONML, and being tedious means being difficult (that isn't my excuse for the level, just a generality).
Wicked 12: Thanks.
Wicked 13: I've been noticing that my Wicked levels are in mixed difficulty. Nice solution. Will definitely make that the intended solution (with the respective skills, in the next update. Just so you know, I'm going to update it when you're done playing through the whole thing).
Wicked 14: That's exactly the solution.
Wicked 15: That isn't the intended solution, but it works. I'll look into that in the update (probably remove the bomber and floater and add a digger).
Wicked 16: That isn't the intended solution (I'm not going to say "but it works"). It's strange how it use the same amount of skills as the actual solution, which requires some tricky mining. I'm going to make this the intended solution, and that another solution.
Wicked 17: Thank you.
Wicked 18: In my opinion, if you can't see the staircase, it's buried. You can't see the staircase here, clearly. I'll remove a lot of the Wicked set's hidden traps.
Wicked 19: That's a backroute. But, it is as hard as the intended solution, and . . . (look in spoiler). I'll attach the replay of the intended solution.
Quote from: Spoiler
It uses a trick that is used in the solution of one of my Havoc levels.
Wicked 20: I'll give you a hint (wow, I actually have to give you a hint!). I have to say what I had to have said for Wicked 9.
Quote from: Spoiler
Do what you've been trying to do to pass the traps.

Don't give up on levels just because they're "awful" or "really bad". The point of Lemmings is to solve all the levels, not solve the ones you like and skip the ones you don't.

Apart from that, thanks for the critique. I hope the Havoc rating will cheer you up. There are some levels in there you're going to hate.
Quote from: Spoiler
Bomber timing in some. Very precise bomber timing. Pixel perfect bomber timing. Literally.

Offline namida

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2014, 06:00:44 pm »
With Wicked 9 type levels, you need to take into account that you know where the exit is. Other players don't, and since there's nothing to really indicate it (the small ditch makes a good reference point once you already know about it, but is useless to those who don't), that leaves the player left with having to guess. That's where it differs from Wicked 11; which still wasn't a great level, but at least you can for the most part quickly check large areas, then once you've mapped it out, work out an actual solution. I get what you say about the "solve every level" thing - this is something I actually enforce at first with my packs by not revealing the cheat code (I change it from "CHEATCODES" to something else in every pack) and removing the setting from the INI (while still allowing it to work if the code is entered), though I do release the code after a while. But on the other hand, a level like this is something that would probably end up taking more time than the entire rest of the rank combined just trying to locate where the exit is - again keeping in mind that, without knowing what only *you* know about the level, I have no way of actually knowing it's a buried exit in the terrain, rather than an invisible one in midair, or an approach that involves going "under" the water possibly via a fake piece of it.

Wicked 20 again, it's not that I couldn't work it out, but that I couldn't be bothered trying after getting frustrated with the traps. I think something to consider here is - is there ANY reason why you couldn't keep them in the exact same places, but make them more visible? (Either move the terrain down a few pixels or the traps up a few). I do get the feeling this may actually be a good level, but the hidden traps (and again, this is not the effect of a one-off thing, but the effect of hidden traps repeatedly appearing on a regular basis) made this level annoying to the point I didn't want to play it. I will probably come back to this one before I start Havoc, though.

And no, tedious and difficult are not the same thing. A level can be tedious without being very difficult (for example, Mayhem 30 from the original game); a level can be difficult without being tedious (for example, Mayhem 3). However, at the same time; long and tedious are also not the same thing (We All Fall Down is tedious but not really long... for a level that's long but not tedious, Mayhem 9 comes to mind).

Pixel-precise bombing can be an annoyance, though Lemmix does reduce the degree of annoyingness of it. It ultimately will come down to how it's used - are the levels fairly well-desgined levels that happen to require some very precise timed bombers in their solution (along the lines of Mayhem 19), or are they levels that derive their difficulty solely from having to time bombers and would be overly easy with instant bombers (along the lines of Havoc 20)? If it's the former, it's not nearly as bad. But we'll see when I actually play them - even if there's some bad levels among them, judging by the first four ranks I'm expecting to see a lot of very good ones too.

The problem with that definition of a buried exit, especially when using traditional DOS mechanics rather than NeoLemmix or Lemmini, is that the trigger areas won't always agree with that; nor is it always overly noticable (and this latter one applies even on the newer engines). That's why I suggest making it *very* obvious. As for removing the traps - some of them do actually have a purpose; perhaps rather than removing them, just make it clearer that they're there. If the player can see them, they can plan their entire strategy for the level taking them into account, and at that point, if the level is difficult, it's no longer because BAM! surprise trap, but rather, because "here's a trap I can clearly tell exists, and I need to think of a way to get around it".

Offline namida

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2014, 07:51:54 pm »
Havoc 1 to 8:

Havoc 2 - This level is actually a lot better than it looks to be at first glance. However - with the low save requirement, you can completely ignore the lower-left entrance and still pass the level. I don't know if this was intentional or not. (Increasing it to 75% would ensure you have to save lemmings from all entrances, due to it being impossible to save *every* lemming from the top-right one)
Havoc 3 - Hm, I wonder if you expected the route I used. On one hand, the detail paid to the lower part would suggest no, but on the other hand, the little ledge by the exit would suggest yes. Oh well, watch the replay and you can decide for yourself. :P
Havoc 4 - This level is either FAR too easy for its position (keep in mind that SuperLemming doesn't really count for much in Lemmix, where you can assign skills while paused; unless of course you combine it with Frenzy, which would require NeoLemmix), or has a MAJOR and very obvious backroute. I'm going to guess the latter, given the setup and skillset of the level.
Havoc 5 - I think I might've backrouted this one too. Nice level either way.
Havoc 6 - A hidden trap in a 100% level...? But aside from the trap - which admittedly an average solution might not even encounter - this is a good level. :)
Havoc 7 - This is a really good level! :D This one actually had me stuck for a while.
Havoc 8 - Are you sure this level is possible? If it actually is (and assuming it doesn't just rely on obscure glitches or a hidden exit somewhere - I did look for one buried in terrain, I didn't bother to look for invisible mid-air ones), this is a really hard level. o_O Also, I noticed yet another hidden trap (in another 100% level), one which would appear to not serve any purpose though it's hard to say until I've found the actual solution. If it actually is just a really hard level - I have to say I notice an interesting coincidence, in that LPII also has a disproportionately hard level as level 8 of the 5th rank. :P

Since you don't seem to like me skipping levels, and since I don't know for sure that this is an impossible or unfair level (as opposed to just a really really hard one), I'll wait for your response before I skip to the next one.

Offline Simon

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2014, 09:52:47 pm »
I've started playing the ONML pack in Lix. (Nonstandard physics, some levels won't be solvable there; steel areas are ignored, visible pixels of steel terrain blocks become steel instead. All levels are selectable at all times.)

The genuine puzzles are great, with refreshing ideas. Your level designes are kept condensed to bring out the core puzzle idea in full. Very nice work!

Eventually, I got thrown off by the hidden exits and traps. This feels like a huge issue to me, completely distracting from the puzzles. I've begun checking most of your levels in the editor before playing, as I won't trust their normal appearances anymore. (The Lix editor counts exits and highlights all trigger areas.) If you are afraid of lowering the difficulty by showing all special objects, rest assured that the puzzle difficulty remains the same, only the frustration will be lowered.

namida's steel area issue in "Written in Pascal" under the grinder wheel has no effect in Lix. Nonetheless, if you would like the steel area to extend this far, I recommend putting a steel terrain block there, to not confuse the Lemmix users.

Some levels feature time limits that do not prevent backroutes, but punish forgetting RR-setting. I recommend to scrap these time limits; if that is not possible in the game, raise them to the maximum amount. Whenever a time limit doesn't prevent backroutes, it lowers the playing experience. See details in the thread "Time Limits".

-- Simon

Offline namida

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2014, 10:29:07 pm »
^ Thanks. It's good to see I'm not the only one who thinks those things; I would feel bad if I was making such a big deal out of something that no one else really minded.

Quote
Whenever a time limit doesn't prevent backroutes, it lowers the playing experience. See details in the thread "Time Limits".

I would also add to that; in some cases, there are levels that directly derive their difficulty from the time limits. In these cases though, the time limit should be the main part of the challenge, not an extra thing tagged on where it doesn't serve much purpose. In other cases, it can also be useful to require the player to use an active approach rather than taking their time; this is especially prominent in some multitasking levels. I wouldn't say time limits are inherently bad; but rather, they are a feature that's very easy to use in bad ways.

To use a few of my levels as example, PSYCHO 20 "No Time To Die" is a level that specifically derives its difficulty from the time limit - in the absence of one, it would be quite an easy level, but the challenge comes from having to navigate around the time limit. Although it's a difficult position there, because 2 minutes is very tight even with the best of solutions, but 3 minutes is far too lenient - obviously that wouldn't be a problem in NeoLemmix (although I didn't modify it in the NeoLemmix version due to 2 minute time limits now being a staple of No Time To Die levels), but NeoLemmix didn't exist back when I made this level. Nonetheless, despite (or possibly even because of) the time limit, it appears to be one of the most liked levels in LPDOS, and it's certianly one of my favorites.

On the other hand, Medi 16 "The Oddstack" is a level where the time limit doesn't really provide anything apart from frustration - and indeed, why I increased it in the NeoLemmix version.

Genius 6 "Treetop Trial" is a level where the time limit isn't going to impact a decent solution, but it will bite you in the ass if you're taking your time too much.

PSYCHO 2 "The Parking Lot" is a level where the time limit is the *ONLY* point of difficulty, to the point where the entire challenge of the level is derived from fine-tuning the otherwise-obvious solution to stick within the time limit. This is the kind of level that, in hindsight, was a poor decision to make.

In general with LPIII, while many levels have semi-tight time limits, I'm aiming for giving at least 20 seconds or so to spare, unless the level either works out in such a way that the time limit won't become an issue anyway (for example, there's a level in Rough with a time limit as low as 40 seconds; but it also requires 100%, and with any approach I'm aware of, if you run out of time with a given solution, that same solution would not be able to save 100% anyway even with infinite time), or the time limit is in itself part of the challenge of the level (an example would be the Dodgy level "Dreamy Drift" featured in the first demo).

I'd also say that maximum is not always the best idea - a small level with a 9 minute time limit feels weird, not to mention it may lead people to think their solution is a backroute if they solve it in a minute and a half, for example. Rather; the limit should be set to allow a decent margin of room for error - for example, if the level takes just under 2 minutes on average to complete, set the time limit to at least 2:30 (or 3 minutes in this case, since traditional Lemmix doesn't support setting them to-the-second, you can only set whole minutes).


Anyway, exit, I'll wait for your response before continuing Havoc or trying again on that level, but I'll have another go at Wicked 20 now. Will post the replay if/when I find a solution, assuming I don't get too annoyed at it again. EDIT: Done. Replay attached. If my solution was the intended one, then that'd actually be a very good level if the traps were made visible, so it's a shame that they bring it down (and AGAIN, a trap hidden behind the exit?!).

Offline ccexplore

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2014, 10:49:15 pm »
As a reference point related to hidden traps, and to satisfy my curiosity, I decided to see how many levels in the original ONML have hidden or otherwise well-disguised traps.  Here's the list (note: did not bother with Tame as presumably there are none of relevance there):

Crazy 15 (Worra load of old blocks!): a few near start (hidden)
Wild 14 (ICE SPY): 1 start (disguised), 1 end (disguised)
Wicked 18 (LoTs moRe wHeRe TheY caMe fRom): 1 middle (disguised/practically hidden)
Wicked 19 (Up, DOwn or Round and Round): 1 end, a few in middle outside of path of solution (all hidden)
Havoc 1 (Tubular Lemmings): 1 end (hidden)
Havoc 17 (Where Lemmings Dare): a whole bunch near the exit (disguised/practically hidden)
Havoc 19 (Looks a Bit Nippy Out There): 2 start (hidden)

Offline namida

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Re: cLemmings - a new Lemmings game
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2014, 10:51:06 pm »
As a reference point related to hidden traps, and to satisfy my curiosity, I decided to see how many levels in the original ONML have hidden or otherwise well-disguised traps.  Here's the list (note: did not bother with Tame as presumably there are none of relevance there):

Tame does not have any traps full stop IIRC (unless you count water).

On the subject of Havoc 8, I examined it in a level editor to see if there was anything hidden (or a gap in the steel, not that that wouldn't be EXTREMELY unfair), and there isn't (apart from the trap that I'm already aware of; but I was looking for a hidden exit). Given the layout of the steel and the width of the gap with the "water" (if you can call it that in this graphic set xD), there is quite clearly no way to solve this level that doesn't rely on glitches - if it had more builders and didn't require 100%, it would be possible, but neither is the case.

So yeah, this is quite clearly either a glitch-abuse level or another untested and impossible one; either way, I'm moving on to the next one.