Author Topic: Lemmings Plus III - Development Topic  (Read 21295 times)

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Offline namida

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Lemmings Plus III - Development Topic
« on: May 29, 2014, 04:08:51 PM »
ANNOUNCEMENT: Due to personal circumstances and not wanting to compromise the quality of LPIII, nor take too long to finish it, I have decided to reduce the number of levels by about 40%. See this post for more info.

Two demos are now available! Get them here:
Demo 1: http://www.mediafire.com/download/7q38qm2em1757mg/LPIIIDemo1.zip (Runs on NeoLemmix V1.07n)
>> 3 levels from Timid (though one has since been moved to Rough and made harder)
>> 3 levels from Dodgy
>> 1 level from Rough
>> 1 secret level
(No levels from Fierce in this one)
>> Uses Sky and Circuit styles only
>> To enable cheat mode, enter the code "DEMOCHEATS" (you can't set it in the INI file)

Demo 2: http://www.mediafire.com/download/79dqs0de0yb1ds1/LPIIIDemo2.zip (Runs on NeoLemmix V1.09.5n*)
>> 2 levels from each rank (including Fierce)
>> 1 secret level
>> Uses all styles except Lab
>> To enable cheat mode, enter the code "DEMO2CHEAT" (you can't set it in the INI file)


* The version used for the second demo isn't V1.10n as that wasn't yet ready at the time of release, but does contain new updates/features/tweaks not found in V1.09n, hence the labelling as "V1.09.5n".

Also, please note that some details about the game (which affect positioning) have changed since the demos were released.


Well, yep, LPIII is officially under construction! Actually, it has been for a couple of weeks now, though I didn't want to announce it until NeoLemmix was in a fairly good state *and* NeoLemEdit at least had the underlying code (if not the interface) ready, since both of those are quite important to LPIII's construction, especially the former.

Yes, unlike the somewhat-messy (although to be fair, I wouldn't say they're in a completed state yet) conversions of LPDOS and LPII; LPIII is being built right from the start for NeoLemmix and taking full advantage of its features! Of course there'll be new object types in use - including some that I've added to NeoLemmix but haven't revealed (experiment, you might find something :P ) - and another new set of styles; it isn't going to just use remastered and/or expanded versions of the official or LPII styles. Likewise, one of the graphic sets is *entirely* rough-edged - even including the steel! NeoLemmix's autosteel makes this possible. =D

As a bit of a change from LPDOS and LPII, Lemmings Plus III is only going to have four difficulty ranks. 15 levels each (not including secret levels), so you still get around the same number of levels as last time. One thing different is that the initial difficulty curve is going to be steeper - of course I'm putting a few of those X-of-everything levels at the start and then the odd one scattered throughout, just as I've always done, but I'd say the first rank is more comparable to Cheeky/Wimpy, perhaps even very-early Medi/Sneaky, than it is to Mild/Nice. (The original intention was 25 levels each, but for reasons relating to my personal life I decided to cut this down.)

Now, unlike in LPII, the gimmick levels won't be mixed in randomly with the normal ones - this time, all gimmick levels will be secret levels. There'll still be a couple of frenzies among the normal levels, but I don't plan on having one in every rank - probably only two, maybe three, in LPIII as a whole. Also, there'll be two secret gimmick levels per rank. Within one rank, both of these levels will use the same gimmick, and the first secret level will be much easier, kind of like a tutorial level for the gimmick, with the second one being a proper puzzle using it. Note that I'm not promising that the gimmick levels are the only secret levels; just that no non-secret levels will be gimmick levels (except an occasional frenzy). Also, apart from Frenzy (and perhaps SuperLemming + Frenzy combo, but I haven't made any levels using that yet), all gimmicks will be new ones, not re-used LPII ones. (Sorry to anyone who wanted more Karoshi levels; but hey, you're more than welcome to have a go at making your own ones. :P ) It has been confirmed what the four gimmicks being used are.

Initially only the first two rank names, Timid and Dodgy, were revealed. The third rank's name was revealed a bit later on to be Rough. When the first demo was released, although it did not contain any levels from the fourth rank, its readme revealed the name of the fourth rank as Fierce.

I'm only going to do four styles this time, partly because creating styles is a lot of work and partly because with more object types and 32 colors, I reckon it can stay interesting without needing a 5th style. And just so you know - the "test" style I've posted in the NeoLemmix topic is, indeed, an LPIII style. That was probably obvious from it being far too detailed for a true test style. xD

Since I'm kind of out of Lemmings musics to go with (well, I guess I *could* use Holiday Lemmings :P ), I'm using an assortment of video game musics for the backing musics in it. Older games, though not nessecerially as old as Lemmings. The tracks being used (all but the 5th in the rotation and the Frenzy music can be heard in the demos) are:
1) Regular in-game music from Bust-A-Move 4
2) "Burning Blood" from Final Fantasy Legend II
3) Windmill music from Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
4) Bubbly Clouds music from Kirby's Dreamland
5) Secret/boss stage music from Super Mario Land II
6) Overworld music from Final Fantasy Legend
7) "Don't Give Up" from Final Fantasy Legend II

Frenzy) "Screech's Sprint" from Donkey Kong Land 2
Gimmick) "Diggin' It" / "Bee-having" music from Crash Bandicoot 2
(There are a few more tracks for specific purposes, but you'll have to wait and find out what they are and what they're for!)

It's being created using the updated version of LemSet for the graphic sets, and mostly MS Paint (the old XP version; can't stand that new one!) to create the graphics themself, with some use of Paint.NET. So far level creation has been done in LemEdit, but that'll be moved to NeoLemEdit once it's capable of actually making levels rather than just loading graphic sets and levels into memory and spitting them out as PNG files. xD

Additionally, Lemmings Plus III will feature VGASPEC levels - the first Lemmix-based Lemmings Plus to do so; while these kind of levels were a staple of the Cheapo Lemmings Plus packs (though to be honest, I can't remember if LP2 had any - but LP1 and LP3 definitely did), LPDOS and LPII did not feature any. Just for the record, NeoLemmix doesn't support beyond the normal 7 colors in a VGASPEC (at least not at the time of making the LPIII VGASPECs), so those levels aren't quite as color-varied as the others - but the use of simple concepts for the designs mostly covers this up quite well. The four share a common theme to some extent, though I won't say what that theme is - you'll have to wait and find out when it's released!

By the way - don't worry too much if progress on this is a bit slow at first. I'm primarily working on NeoLemEdit at the moment, since that's going to be an important tool for creating LPIII; use of traditional LemEdit (or any other existing editor) is doable but not exactly ideal.

The first completed style (circuit style, VGAGR1) is already made available to anyone who wants to use it; it's attached to this post. In this case, it's numbered VGAGR16 as that would be it's number in CustLemmix if the LPIII styles were to be appended to the already present ones. The main reason for making it available is to show off some NeoLemmix objects and a style specifically designed for it.


Completion so far:

--Styles-- (Weighting: 35%)
VGAGR0 (Sky): 100% complete
VGAGR1 (Circuit): 100% complete
VGAGR2 (Martian): 100% complete
VGAGR3 (Lab): 100% complete

--Levels-- (Weighting: 50%)
Timid: 15 of 15 (100%) + 2/2
Dodgy: 15 of 15 (100%) + 2/2
Rough: 15 of 15 (100%) + 2/2
Fierce: 15 of 15 (100%) + 2/2

--Other-- (Weighting: 15%)
MAIN.DAT: 100%
Musics: 100%
Player: N/A (Uses NeoLemmix; the very small amount of LPIII-specific code is done)



Style distribution so far: (Note: I don't nessecerially update this every time I make a level, so might be slightly out of date)
Sky: 16
Circuit: 16
Martian: 14*
Lab: 15
VGASPEC: 4**

* This is only counting the once-per-rank level once, not four times.
**These levels are not also counted under the regular style that they use for objects. Two use Sky and two use Martian.


Note a correction to the demo 1 readme: It lists the 3rd demo level of Timid as being Timid 9. This was true at the time of the demo's release; but it has since been moved to Rough 2 (along with being given 100% requirement and only 1 each of bashers/miners/diggers).
And a change for demo 2 too, although this is more minor: The 1st level of Rough is listed as Rough 9, it's been moved to Fierce. (Originally to Rough 16; I haven't revealed the exact positions of demo levels following the reduction to 15 levels per rank; so that's why no position in Fierce is given.)
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: So... I guess it's time to reveal this...
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2014, 05:06:21 PM »
Demo 1 100% List

Timid 1: 100% is possible
Timid 2: 100% is possible
Timid 3: 100% is possible*

* This specifically relates to the demo's version of this level; the level has been changed since (and accordingly moved to a different position) and one of the changes is that it now requires 100%.

Dodgy 1: 100% is possible
Dodgy 2: 100% required
Dodgy 3: Record is 97%

Rough 1: 100% required

Secret: 100% required

(TOTAL: 3 required, 1 impossible, 4 optional)

Demo 2 100% List

Timid 1: 100% is possible
Timid 2: Record is 98%

Dodgy 1: 100% required
Dodgy 2: Record is 90% (I suspect 100% might be possible but haven't been able to acheive it)

Rough 1: Record is 90% (Likewise, I suspect 93% might be possible on this one)
Rough 2: 100% is required

Fierce 1: Record is 92%
Fierce 2: 100% is required

Secret: Record is 97%

(Total: 3 required, 5 impossible, 1 optional)



Demo 1 High Scores
Timid 1: 16058 (namida)
Timid 2: 17360 (DynaLem)
Timid 3: 11764 (namida)

Dodgy 1: 13628 (namida)
Dodgy 2: 17853 (DynaLem)
Dodgy 3: 14475 (Akseli)

Rough 1: 16908 (namida) <--- Akseli was only 9 points behind me though!

Secret: 14634 (DynaLem)


Demo 2 High Scores
Timid 1: 18386 (Akseli)
Timid 2: 15416 (namida)

Dodgy 1: 16334 (Akseli)
Dodgy 2: 14156 (Akseli)

Rough 1: 13529 (DynaLem)
Rough 2: 15685 (namida)

Fierce 1: 11121 (namida)
Fierce 2: 14048 (namida)

Secret: 14385 (namida)
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)


Offline namida

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Re: So... I guess it's time to reveal this...
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2014, 05:58:17 PM »
Taking full advantage of NeoLemmix:
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Wafflem

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Re: So... I guess it's time to reveal this...
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2014, 08:44:24 PM »
Great! You've made three excellent Lemmings Plus packs. I'm looking forward to this pack.

The Sky style looks very cool. I've also noticed that you've changed the font of the number of skills.
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Offline namida

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Re: So... I guess it's time to reveal this...
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2014, 12:18:37 AM »
Indeed. I was actually wanting to go with like a "digital clock" style display for them, but the limited space makes that a bit less good-looking than I'd like. So, I slightly modified it into that - which actually turned out very similar to the original font, just slightly less vertically stretched. Although one touch I did add - and this is exclusively an LPIII thing, it's not a mandatory NeoLemmix feature (in fact, it didn't require any coding; it was done by modifying MAIN.DAT) - it won't display a leading zero. (Eg: If you have 5 builders, it will display "5", not "05".) (EDIT: A picture's worth a thousand words, so...)

I'm also planning to customize the skill panel, too. I just haven't got around to doing so yet.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III - Development topic.
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2014, 12:36:10 PM »
So, this level you've seen around a bit (image attached just in case you're not sure which one I mean). I'll reveal it's position in the pack...

Timid 1.

Haven't done much more development, apart from a little bit of work on VGAGR0, because I've been focusing on NeoLemEdit - once that's done, LPIII levels will be much easier to make, so should get done fairly quickly too - though I don't think it'll be as fast as LPII was.

In case anyone forgot, the level has 50 lemmings, requires 90% (45 lemmings), has a release rate of 20 and a time limit of 4 minutes, and gives 15 of each skill.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III - Development topic.
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2014, 08:29:22 AM »
Added some new extra info relating to secret levels, gimmick levels and frenzies. It's in the original post, but basically:

  • All gimmick levels (apart from Frenzies) will be secret levels.
  • Frenzies will be among the normal levels, but won't be one per rank; but rather, just two or three within LPIII as a whole.
  • There'll be two secret gimmick levels in each rank; the first one will be kind of like a tutorial level for the gimmick, and the second a proper puzzle using it.
  • All the gimmicks used in LPIII will be new ones, not re-used ones from LPII.
  • Although I'm saying all gimmick levels will be secret levels, I'm not nessecerially saying all secret levels will be gimmick levels.


Haven't made any gimmick levels so far (but I have made a couple of gimmicks themself), but I have made one of the Frenzy levels. This one is pretty much just Floater Frenzy with a twist - there's enough lemmings that even at RR99, they won't all enter the level before the time runs out. And, you have infinite floaters. And, it's RR99. Obviously, the requirement is set lower than most of the Floater Frenzies were, but this one does feel far more intense than even the Cunning or Genius Floater Frenzies. Any other Frenzies will be a bit more like the sort seen in the LPII Bonus pack than Floater Frenzy clones. (An interesting trivia point: This level has 500 lemmings, which is double the most that any LPII level had! However, in general, whereas LPDOS generally used 80 as a "default" value for lemming count and LPII used 100; I'm using 50 for LPIII.)

Also, I haven't yet decided if I'm going to to a once-per-rank level for this one. If I do, expect it to be far more along the lines of No Salvation than those of We All Fall Down or Floater Frenzy.


Some music-related revelations: I won't reveal which tracks, or which is which, but the gimmick and frenzy musics; one of them comes from the Donkey Kong series (within the Gameboy entries) and the other from the Crash Bandicoot series (within the PS1 entries).


Also. Here's another level you've already seen in an incomplete form, but here's the complete and most likely final map for it. Mostly just added decorations compared to previously; also came up with a pretty challenging skillset and stats for it. The final result is third-rank material... though it does happen to be the first level of the third rank. Only specific detail I'll give is that it has a 100% requirement; you have all skill types except diggers; and you don't have more than three of any one skill (but you do only have one or two of some skills). This also marks the first time (if you don't include the LPII bonus pack and only count the main entries) that the first level of a rank has required 100% in the Lemmix-based LP series.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III - Development topic.
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2014, 11:50:04 AM »
Okay, well! NeoLemEdit may not be perfect yet, but it's at a state where it *can* properly create levels, so progress will start to pick up again now. :)

Here's one of the levels from early Timid (it's in the high single digits). It features one-way down arrows. I briefly mentioned them as a possible idea at one point; I actually implemented them a while ago. They work as I suggested - miners and diggers can destroy them (in the case of miners, their direction doesn't matter) but bashers cannot (bombers, of course, can).

The core elements of this level were created quite a while ago in LemEdit, but I added the decorative elements just now using NeoLemEdit. So I guess you could say this is the first proper LemEdit/NeoLemEdit hybrid level. xD I have two more levels I've made in LemEdit that need extra decorating (and no doubt NeoLemEdit will be the tool of choice; it's much easier to make it look nice when you can see it in the proper colors), and I have a few level ideas I've been saving too.

This level is nothing overly flash in terms of difficulty or anything - you can lose a handful of lemmings (IIRC, 50 lemmings and requires 80%) and have plenty of time; the skillset is 3 of each which mostly rules out approaches that avoid dealing with the one-way-down wall while still giving plenty of room for error and experimenting. It's probably the easiest "new object tutorial" level, to be honest (although some objects don't even have a tutorial level yet - only really the teleporters, these, and the radiation field; and the last one is very hard so I'm thinking about making it into a later-game normal level and making an easier tutorial level for them).

And, I'm gonna reveal one more thing. The source of all the musics. Not the exact tracks, but just which series they're from (remember - these are series, not specific entries):

Track_01: Bust-A-Move
Track_02: Final Fantasy Legend
Track_03: Legend of Zelda
Track_04: Kirby's Dream Land
Track_05: Super Mario Land
Track_06: Final Fantasy Legend
Track_07: Final Fantasy Legend
Frenzy: Donkey Kong
Gimmick: Crash Bandicoot

(Keep in mind that it's possible, though unlikely, that I may still change some of the tracks. And yeah, it's a 7-track loop for the normal levels.)
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III - Development topic.
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2014, 05:07:40 AM »
Here's the first LPIII level to be made *entirely* in NeoLemEdit (though several others have, like the one above, been started in LemEdit then later finished in NeoLemEdit).

Dodgy 1 - "Boost Jumper"
60 Lemmings, 95% required (57 lemmings)
Time limit 3:50, RR 30
Skillset: 4 Climbers, 6 Floaters, 3 Bombers, 4 Blockers, 7 Builders, 5 Bashers, 3 Miners, 3 Diggers

Of course you don't need nearly all of those skills. It's like a lot of the LPII levels particularly in Cheeky and Sneaky; it gives you excess skills, but not to the point of being "X of everything"; just a bit more than you actually need. The time limit also isn't that tight; it was originally 4:20, but I found this was leaving WAY too much time to spare so I knocked it down by 30 seconds, it can still be easily beaten with well over a minute to spare.

I originally had placed this level at Timid 15, but after playing it a few more times I felt it's a bit too hard for Timid (actually, it's quite similar in difficulty to Timid 25, so an early-Dodgy position works well). And you may notice that as much as ever, I still have the whole OCD thing about making sure (at least in my opinion) the levels somewhat fit the musics - you might notice Timid 15 and Dodgy 1 would both play the same track. :P

Also, just for reference - the obvious steel blocks are steel, but those support structure things (the long vertical/horizontal ones with the circular holes along them) are also steel. Everything else is not.


Another interesting fact - VGAGR0 (the sky style), which is still relatively incomplete, already has a larger VGAGR file than any LPII style except for Desert. VGAGR1 (the circuit style), which is complete, has a larger VGAGR file than the purple, psychedelic or metal styles (although it only beats purple by a couple of hundred bytes). Of course, a lot of this probably comes down to the LPIII styles having an extra 1 bit of color depth.

I'm wondering what direction to take the sky style from here. Objects are more or less done, though I still need to add more terrain pieces to it. So far I've been going for an exclusively rough-edged design, but the fact is, rough-edged level design isn't exactly my specialty - sure, I have a few good rough-edged levels (Genius 4 and Genius 6 being the first ones to come to mind, although the latter is more a mixture of both types), but I think we can agree that the majority of my best levels are predominantly straight-edged. So it's basically - do I keep the original concept of a purely rough-edged style, and risk the sky levels being in general somewhat subpar compared to others (or the sky style being underused in the higher ranks)? Or do I take away one of the unique aspects of the style in favor of making it more useful? (Keeping in mind that, just like with the LPII styles, I will of course release the styles eventually so that anyone can use them; although I haven't noticed anyone else using the LPII ones yet. :P ) One other factor I need to keep in mind is that a lot of this also comes back to what I can plan out in my head - a lot of my straight-edged levels are a matter of "get an idea, build a level around it", while most of my good rough-edged ones are the reverse - "build a level randomly, find an idea that works well within it"; both of the LPII levels I mentioned before were cases of the latter.

One other thing I've been thinking - I remember in an old topic on here, someone gave a somewhat unique comment about LPDOS - that it had quite a good number of good builder-free levels; I noticed that LPII by comparison had very few of these. I'll have to try and make some more good ones of those for LPIII. I probably won't do another "20 of everything with 0 builders" level though. *remembers there's already a level with that exact skillset, although it's a very early, easy level; not a level along the lines of To The End / No Construction Zone*. Actually, (normal) X-of-everything levels aren't too common this time, and 20+ is especially rare (actually, I don't think I've made ANY level that gives you 20+ of everything yet) - for "X-of-everything" type levels, the most common amounts so far are 15, 3 and 2. xD


Another random trivia: The level currently placed at Rough 5 has in fact been, at some point during its development, in every rank except the 4th one. It started as Timid 5, was moved to Dodgy 5 and then later Dodgy 19, and just now I decided it was still too difficult even for that position and moved it up yet again.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Levels: 17.6% | Styles: 48.8% | Other: 90%)
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2014, 07:33:58 AM »
Development has begun on the 3rd style, which at this point is simply titled "Red". I'm not sure if I'll develop it into a theme, or if I'll simply base it around "lots of different red stuff" - that's what I did for the purple style in LPII and the results turned out pretty good. :)

Here's the exit (though the design is, of course, subject to change). Apart from this, I've only done the window (as usual, it's a recolored one, not an original graphic) and one-way arrows (which aren't that interesting), so this is all I have to show so far of it.


Also - suggestions for the 4th style would be appreciated! Quite open to ideas here, the only things I have in mind is that I'd like it to be primarily blue, and also mostly (but not completely) straight-edged. Think along the lines of VGAGR2 from the official styles - mostly straight, but it does have the odd rough piece in there.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Wafflem

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Levels: 17.6% | Styles: 48.8% | Other: 90%)
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2014, 12:49:27 PM »
Hmm…I had some ideas in mind before you suggested that the style should be blue:
Castle / Cobbler – this style is like that of a castle. The water includes lava. Fire traps involve swords - if a lemming touches the blade they die.  The exit can be similar to that of the Hell style - a gargoyle.
Ruins – these look like that of Macchu Picchu, or the ruin levels that you mostly see in Crash Bandicoot 2.
Noir - a city that takes place in the 1940s. All the buildings are gray, and traps can include cars that run over lemmings and criminals that shoot them. There can also be sewers, and one-way fields in the form of flashing road signs, while the one-way walls may look similar to that of the Psychedelic style. As an added touch, everything is black and white (including the level preview screen, the skillset, the lemmings, and the success/fail screen).

I've also been thinking of this idea, which I can now expand upon:
Ocean / Aqua – you may have two areas: above the ocean and underwater. This idea originally started as underwater.

For above the water,  there are ships - these can range from navy ship to pirate ships to ghost ships. There should also be a docking station.

For underwater, this is also where you can use the low-gravity zones, as if the lemming is “diving” underwater. The straight edges can be the submarines and underwater ruins, something very similar to Atlantis, while the rough edges can be seaweed and sand. Traps may include sharks or piranhas that eat lemmings, electric eels as Fire traps, and there can also be a whirlpool as a portal (this was one of the objects in your poll, where it's a teleporter in which multiple lemmings can use it). You should also add a scary blue sea monster as another trap.

The Red style exit looks very nice. I wonder what you'll develop it into (of course, it shouldn't look like the Brick style).
YouTube: www.tinyurl.com/YTWafflem
Twitch: www.twitch.tv/Wafflem467

Have level designer's block right now? Have some of my incomplete levels for LOTS of ideas!

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Levels: 17.6% | Styles: 48.8% | Other: 90%)
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2014, 01:08:41 PM »
Nope, the red style is nothing like the brick style, apart from maybe that the exit looks like it'd fit right in. xD In terms of the shape of the pieces, so far it's probably closer to the Snow style than anything else. I've attached an image of a level I made it in; obviously this level will need further decorating once the style is more developed.

I do kind of like your idea for an ocean+underwater style. The only problem comes out of water usually being deadly to the lemmings; additional mechanics like water lemmings or a "swimmer" skill is beyond the scope of what I plan to include for LPIII. Maybe some kind of water-related style but not nessecerially underwater. I had thought about a space style, but I think that's a bit overused by now, although it would work well with quite a few of the new object types. :/ Another idea I had was an ice style, but then the problem is how to make it sufficiently different from the snow style (and there'd also be at least some degree of overlap with the sky style too, which is an even bigger problem). I also don't want to go with two styles that focus more on a color than a theme; while Purple style had pretty neat results, I don't know that designing *every* style with that formula would turn out so great.

I have one absolute "last resort" idea for this style, but it's kind of the thing that'd be more suited to a one-off VGASPEC level than a dedicated style.

Hm, perhaps one option for it is a nuclear reactor or science lab style or something? (After all, you know, blue radioactive glow, etc...). It'd be perfect for the radiation object and teleporters, probably work well with the locked exits too. Both would also fit in quite nicely with the idea of a predominently straight-edged style.

Or perhaps to go along the same path but slightly change the idea so it fits the context better - maybe a swamp style? Although that would admittedly be far better suited to a mostly rough-edged style...

As for your other ideas; I don't really like the "noir" one. It just feels like it wouldn't work too well in a Lemmings context. Also, doing it in black and white isn't an idea I'd be too keen on when I already have the primarily white / light-grey Sky style. The castle one is not a bad idea in itself, but again, the color overlap with the Sky style is quite strong. The ruins style could be interesting if I can't think of anything blue that I like. (Of course I realise (after all, I'm the one who added the feature :P ) that I'm no longer as limited in terms of colors as I was when doing LPII; but I'm still trying to retain the classic feel of styles revolving mainly around one or two colors and each one being fairly unique.)
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Offline Wafflem

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Levels: 17.6% | Styles: 48.8% | Other: 90%)
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2014, 01:36:48 PM »
The Red style is very nice. It does have the feel of the Purple style (though I wonder why the steel isn't red). The one-way arrows have a very neat design too.

The science lab idea sounds very cool. You can still use the low-gravity zones there, and the blue radioactive glow sounds very cool. You can also make potions that could have different effects on lemmings? Based on your ice style idea, there can also be a freeze ray trap, where a lemming is zapped and frozen into ice, turning that lemming into part of the terrain. Fire traps can include electric fields. The rough-edged terrain can be that of melted walls and sludge.
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Levels: 17.6% | Styles: 50% | Other: 90%)
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2014, 02:03:45 PM »
I'm probably not going to add any more new object types. If I do an LPIII bonus pack, I might add a couple more of them in at this stage, though I'm not planning on it. (There again, I wasn't planning an LPII bonus pack while I was making LPII, but one happened; and LPIII *does* once again have some pretty interesting gimmicks).

That's actually a very good idea for how to have rough-edged terrain in such a style. I like it! :)

The steel is white so that it stands out; due to the wide variety of red tones in the terrain, I felt red steel, even if I used unusual shades, wouldn't stand out enough. Plus, it kind of provides an interesting contrast, I reckon. I don't know, I might change it later.

And by the way, some strange-looking ZIP file appeared in my LPIII working folder earlier...
http://www.mediafire.com/download/rc0r68yvq58o61b/MysteriouslySuspiciousZipFile.zip

(EDIT: It's a demo! :P Since people are worrying about what it could be... xD)
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Offline mobius

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Levels: 17.6% | Styles: 50% | Other: 90%)
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2014, 05:48:30 PM »
 :thumbsup: you've really been on a roll this year. This really makes me want to design some of my own new styles. It's just tedious and tough to get motivated.
Btw, I fully plan to play all or as much as I'm able to solve of your latest packs. Just so busy with everything that I haven't gotten around yet. But these new ones look cool.

I would like to make a ruins style similar to what DynaLem mentioned, Clock [like tick-tock clock of Mario64], Computer innards, or underwater


If your comment about this strange-looking ZIP file is to surreptitiously reveal some cool new feature you made, just reveal the thing because, having a bout with viruses last year I'm not about to download any "strange-looking ZIP file"

also (about your comment on "project Capybara") thanks, I'll follow your advice. I won't be remaking too many levels from any one pack because there are so many anyway.
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Levels: 17.6% | Styles: 50% | Other: 90%)
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2014, 06:07:23 PM »
If your comment about this strange-looking ZIP file is to surreptitiously reveal some cool new feature you made, just reveal the thing because, having a bout with viruses last year I'm not about to download any "strange-looking ZIP file"

I assure you it's nothing dangerous. :)
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Offline Akseli

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My solutions attached!

Timid 3 was quite tough for being a first rating level, but then again I think this pack is aiming to be a lot more challenging than earlier big level sets, right from the beginning, too. Dodgy 2 and 3 were really nice puzzles, but my favourite was Rough 1, every skill (assignment) had their important, efficient function (expect for the red herring bombers, obviously :P) and at first I was confused because I thought that object to be a trap. :P Overall I liked the new features/gimmicks and especially the steel mechanics, on the other hand ceiling check was something I need to get more used to when using NeoLemmix mechanics. I tried to search the secret a bit but you obviously always try to hide them in the most tricky places that need sometimes even more effort than solving the level itself. :P

Looking pretty swell so far! Good luck with designing the whole bunch of harder levels. :)

Offline namida

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About the secret: It can be reached with only two skills; in fact there are at least three different combinations of two skills that will get you to it or maybe not, I'm thinking of an older version of the level that had an extra skill that's no longer present, but there is still at least one way to get to it with two skills. ;)

Your solution to Dodgy 2 was pretty unique! I wouldn't call it a backroute, since it's similar in difficulty to the intended one, but it's definitely a unique route.

EDIT: I figure this post is the best one to put it in. xD The secret level is hidden in...
Quote
Rough 1.



Based on yours and DynaLem's comments about Timid 3, I've moved it's position in the full game to Timid 23 (was previously Timid 9).


By the way, to avoid too much backroutes and/or glitches etc, I'm probably going to want a couple of people to test it once it's complete but before release (in hindsight, I probably should've done this with LPII as well). If you're interested, let me know preferably via PM. No rush; it probably won't be ready for quite a while yet, especially with how difficult I'm aiming for Fierce to be. (As with LPII I'll release a second demo at some point; and that one will include some Fierce levels.)
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Offline namida

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More work on the red style. :D

I'm starting to think it looks kind of Martian-y, so I might make its proper name "Mars style".

EDIT: Made some more minor modifications to fit in with this idea. Specifically the entrance and exit. This very minor change actually makes the style feel a lot better, I reckon.
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Offline Wafflem

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The Mars style looks very impressive now, especially the nice outer space touches that you added to the trapdoor and exit. Although I see a orange-white-green line on the outer-space area of the trapdoor. I'm very excited to see what else you will add to the style.

Thanks for moving the position of the Perfect Storm from Timid 9 to Timid 23. The level seems like a harder version of Danger 10 of LPDOS, "Keeping on Track."

Will there be repeat levels, or just semi-repeats (e.g. Floater Frenzy, The Upwards Mission)?

Akseli, I saw your replays. I wasn't sure if 100% is possible in the Perfect Storm,  but it looks like your solution is close enough to getting 100%. Also, great use of tricks in Dodgy 2.

Here are my replays. I've showed them to namida, but I since improved the first two levels by saving 100% in both of them, and in Timid 2's case, used a certain trick from Medi 6.
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Offline namida

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100% is possible in The Perfect Storm, just. Unless I'm missing something, one less builder and it wouldn't be. I'm not sure either way about Dodgy 1 (haven't really looked into it), it's not possible AFAIK on Dodgy 3, the remaining levels are all 100%able (with Dodgy 2, Rough 1 and the secret level *requiring* it).

Same deal as with LPII as far as repeats go. They won't be a regular thing like in Orig/LPDOS, but levels sharing a common theme (like Floater Frenzy, Upwards/Downwards Mission, -Tuned Lemming levels) might happen. And I will probably have a once-per-rank level again, as I've said, with more similarity to No Salvation than to Floater Frenzy.


EDIT: Just had a go at 100% on Dodgy 1. It's possible. :) (For a semi-challenge, try to do it without blockers.)
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Offline Minim

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I had a go at your demo. Very innovative use of gimmicks and features! :thumbsup: That's what a sequel is all about.

I solved all except for Timid 3 (which as we know, is too hard for its difficulty) and Rough 1. When I gave up I saw the replays from both players and were very impressed with their solution to Rough 1! I found another solution to Dodgy 1 (This one takes the left route as opposed to DynaLem & Akseli's right, backroute maybe?). I copied DynaLem's method for Dodgy 2 and Akseli's for Dodgy 3.
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Offline namida

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I'm aware of that solution (actually, I discovered it about 10 minutes after I released the demo xD), and was at one point considering removing it, but I think it's fine. I think the easier solution is somewhat balanced by the increased difficulty of crowd control on that side, especially since the level is not very lenient on how many lemmings you can lose. In fact, in general LPIII isn't too lenient on that. Ironically, aside from the Frenzy, the most lenient level so far is actually in Fierce. xD (It's because just *getting* a significant number of lemmings to the exit is hard enough that I didn't see a need to require you to save every lemming that you possibly can.)
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Offline namida

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Based on the feedback for Timid 3 - as well as the difficulties people have observed in 100%ing it - I've moved it to Rough and upped the requirement to, of course, 100%. Destructive skills also dropped to 1 of each (builders is still 20). Also I was somewhat mistaken in what I said before about it needing every builder - it can be done (even with the new skillset) with only 19. :P

I also just made a level based on a really clever trick I thought of the other day (it works equally well in both traditional and NeoLemmix, so it's not based on obscure new mechanics :P). I'm not going to say for sure I'm the first to think of it, but I've definitely never seen any levels using it before. :D Assuming I don't move it, the level to look out for is Dodgy 22; I'll almost certianly include it in the second demo. (I might move it to Rough, or if people find it difficult enough to get the trick, possibly even Fierce.)

EDIT: I already decided to move it to Rough 8, but I'll quite possibly end up moving it again.
EDIT: Indeed. I've moved it into Fierce now. (Fierce 15)
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Offline namida

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And finally, every rank has a Level 1 now. :D Just made Fierce 1, although still ironing out backroutes and fine-tuning the solution so it works tidily. The level's title is "Curiosity Killed The Lemming", and as the name ever so vaguely implies, it's a Martian style level.

EDIT: And it's completed now (apart from adding some more decorative elements - what I mean is, the functional elements of the level are complete). I should probably note on that subject - a level being included in the completed level statistics actually just refers to the functionl elements, a few levels marked as "completed" still need further decoration.


I've also added teleporters to the Martian style. Unlike the fairly slow ones in the circuit style, these ones operate very quickly. (By comparison - the highest release rate at which the circuit ones will get every lemming without fail is 49; for the martian ones it's 87.) Still deciding which other object types I'm going to add (so far it has exit, window, one way left/right (still need to add one-way down), water and teleporters - also I'm adding secret triggers and pre-placed lemmings to *all* graphic sets so those will be added at some point).
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Offline Wafflem

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Will there also be pickup skills in every style?
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Offline namida

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Yep, those too.
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Offline Wafflem

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I'm thinking low-gravity zones would be perfect for the Martian style, too.
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Offline namida

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Another new level in the martian style. :D Rough's the only rank left that doesn't have a martian level yet (though it was a very close call whether this one went into Dodgy or Rough - the deciding factor came down to that it would've only been early Rough, it's a 2-of-everything level, and Rough 5 is already one of those). I will mention that it is one of those levels that's not quite as hard as it looks.

I think I also need to think about the pickup skills more. Out of the 23 levels I've made so far, Extra Skill Required is the only one that uses them. Although I suppose the pre-placed lemmings aren't too common yet either; I'm sure there's more but off the top of my head I can only think of "Party In The Skies" (a late-Dodgy level (actually it immediately follows the level in the attached image :P ), I'm planning to include this one in the second demo) and "Viva Las Lemmine".
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Offline namida

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By the way - although you can't set it in the INI file, you can enable cheat codes in the demo by entering "DEMOCHEATS" as a code.
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Offline namida

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So, I've made some changes to the skill panel... :) I also changed the minimap/bridge colors (which are also used in the new panel :P ) of the Sky and Circuit styles to actually be a shade of the set's primary color, previously I'd intentionally not done so but with this change I think it works better this way. (The skill panel text has been changed from the default green to use the style's color, and such color is also used in places on the skillbar itself.)
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Offline Minim

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Interesting pictures. I like this idea and most of it works well; however, I prefer the outline of the skill number to stay black rather than colourised. It's easier on the eye that way. :) The white outline absolutely doesn't work with white numbers.
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Offline namida

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I found that with the new boxes, the black outline didn't look too good. I could change it to a set color, though, although it'd then have to be one of the fixed palette colors... perhaps I could just change the Sky style's color to a darker shade, so the border is clearly seperate from the numbers?
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Offline Minim

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I found that with the new boxes, the black outline didn't look too good. I could change it to a set color, though, although it'd then have to be one of the fixed palette colors... perhaps I could just change the Sky style's color to a darker shade, so the border is clearly seperate from the numbers?

That's a better idea, either gray or light blue would be fine by me. In my previous post I was meant to say that the white color-clashes with the text, which made it difficult to read the skill number.
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Offline namida

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I've adjusted it to a darkish gray. I didn't really want to go with light blue because blue will almost certianly be the primary color of the 4th graphic set? (Notice the theme? Red, Green, Blue :P although not quite in that order)

Also, we FINALLY have another level using the pickup skills (actually this level uses a lot of new objects - pickup skills, pre-placed lemmings and teleporters)! :D Still working on it though, so haven't included it in the completed level stats yet. I'll post a pic when it's done. Most likely position it's going in is Dodgy 21... which actually means there's now a streak of five levels in a row that are complete (Dodgy 17 to Dodgy 21 - did have a Dodgy 22 at one point but it was moved to Rough 15 and then to Fierce 15; I thought almost right way it'd be too hard for Dodgy but based on feedback from a couple of people I sent it to, I decided that it was too hard even for Rough - for those who I sent it to, "Dead Is The New Black" is the level I'm referring to here.)


EDIT: Here's the image. Just to be clear, there isn't a second receiver hidden anywhere; both teleporters link to the same receiver. And the pre-placed lemming actually begins facing left (NeoLemEdit just doesn't render it as such when that option is set, at least not yet). Not that it matters; the solution works fine on either side (at one point during development it only worked on one side, hence the lemming facing left, but I've since fixed that).
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Demo available!) (Completion: 36.5%)
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2014, 08:30:04 PM »
Uploaded a new version of the demo. There's no huge need to redownload unless you just want to, though. It does NOT include the new Rough 2 version of "The Perfect Storm", it has the same version of this level as the first release of the demo. The only change to any of the content is in Dodgy 1; a minor terrain issue has been fixed. It shouldn't impact any solutions though; you had to actually go out of your way to trigger it generally.

However, it is also now running on V1.07n of NeoLemmix (the original demo ran on V1.06n). Which means you now get a score when you complete a level. :P

http://www.mediafire.com/download/7q38qm2em1757mg/LPIIIDemo1.zip

(EDIT: I found a minor bug (in all V1.07ns), or rather not a bug but still something that needed to be fixed - due to the congratulation screen, no score would display on the final level. I've reuploaded this demo with that fixed.)
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Demo available!) (Completion: 36.5%)
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2014, 09:24:38 PM »
Okay, here's my replays.

Included are:
> Normal solutions to all levels.
> Accessing the secret level.
> 100% solutions for all the levels where it's possible but not required. (the three Timid levels and Dodgy 1)
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Demo available!) (Completion: 48.9%)
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2014, 09:38:02 AM »
Some of you might've just noticed the completion % in the topic title jumped up by over 10%. This is mostly because I miscalculated it before; although in addition to correcting that I have done a bit more work on the Martian style today. No new levels yet, but now that those SEGA remakes are out of the way (I wanted to get them complete before I made the new player, and I wanted to make the new player so I could play some Genesis levels to see if I get any ideas - it has given me a few; playing the LPIIB levels with different gimmicks also gave me a few ideas too - including a VERY creative way to use one-way fields!), it's back to working on this. :D Also with actually PLAYING some levels from time to time too, because I tend to get a lot of good ideas based on both the actual solutions as well as the things I try in failed attempts.

EDIT: Okay, I've now made one new Timid level, as well as moving an existing Timid level (along with adjustments to the stats and skillset) to Dodgy since I found quite a clever solution to it with a restricted skillset. (EDIT: And - no modifications, just a second judgement of it's difficulty - moved this new one to Dodgy as well.)
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Demo available!) (Completion: 49.8%)
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2014, 03:16:11 AM »
Here we have the first level with no entrance! (Obviously, due to solely using pre-placed lemmings.)

It's an early Timid level, designed to introduce pre-placed lemmings. It's fairly simple. Skillset is 5 of each and requirement is 80%.

(EDIT: Reuploaded it. No changes to the level, just to the image - I forgot to crop out the empty black space on the sides before.)
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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Demo available!) (Completion: 55.1%)
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2014, 08:44:47 AM »
Okay, so here's a design decision I'm going with that I think will increase the incentive to use a variety of styles. Basically, I'm having not too much overlap between the object types the styles contain. In general, apart from the essential types (exit and entrance), and the pre-placed lemmings, pickup skills and secret triggers, I'm limiting each object type to being in three styles (if it's a type that isn't new to NeoLemmix) or two styles (if it is), and in fact some will be exclusive for one style. For example, the low gravity object (or "updraft" as I'm calling it) is going to be unique to the sky style. So far also, only the Martian style has a triggered trap, although I'll most likely put one in the Lab style too. This is so that the styles will have more of a different feel to them than simply a different look.

An interesting fact is that the three styles so far all have 13 objects each, although there's a variety in how many *types* they have - for example, one-way arrows requires three objects, due to having three different directions, while one-way fields are the same (except with only two directions), and teleporters/receivers and locked exits/buttons are similarly paired and thus require two objects. Surprisingly, if you count these "paired" objects as one single object type, the Circuit style is actually the one with the least variety (but it has the largest variety of terrain pieces).


And one more piece of news - the Martian style is now complete! :D While I might add a new gimmick or two rather than using one I've already come up with, for the most part once the Lab style is done it's full focus on level design! I'll probably wait a while before starting on that one, though - the desert style was started quite late in LPII's development and didn't end up underused or uninteresting, after all.

Also, now have the once-per-rank level. Actually, I more realised an existing level suited that role well. As I said, it's much more similar to No Salvation than to Floater Frenzy or We All Fall Down; though this time the versions of it are in pairs. The terrain layout is the same between all four, and the skillset follows a pattern similar to what No Salvation did throughout all four, but the other stats are paired - the paired ones have the same release rate, time limit and required percent saved, as well as being at the same position in their ranks, and in each pair one version has 20 lemmings and the other has 40. The first three can be solved via a similar solution (though harder to execute each time), while the fourth requires a very different approach altogether. Apart from that, also made one completely new level in late Dodgy, and going to probably do some more levels soon.
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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Demo available!) (Completion: 56.1%)
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2014, 12:39:28 PM »
This level is the first non-Martian level I've made in a while. It's also the pack's obligatory 1-of-everything level ("Extra Skill Required" isn't quite a 1-of-everything level due to the use of pickup skills :P ), and unlike LPDOS's and LPII's such levels, requires 100%. Don't let the simple layout fool you - this is a VERY hard level, possibly the hardest LPIII level so far - it's already in Fierce, but I'm thinking about whether to move it to a later position within Fierce. There is one possible backroute I'm aware of (haven't tested if it actually works yet) that I'll have to think of a way to patch up...

EDIT: I thought of a way I can fix the backroute, though at the cost of sacrificing one of the two major tricks of the level (though it is the by far less major of the two, at least)... I might do this if I can't come up with any better way to fix it...

EDIT: Not only did I manage to fix it, but I managed to fix it WITHOUT removing the need to use that trick! :D In fact - previously with *perfect* timing (we're talking at least 4 or 5 pixel-perfect moves here as well as release rate manipulation) it was possible to bypass that trick (although using it was the easier option), now there doesn't appear to be any way around it at all, so this is kind of a double-fix! I've updated the image with the new version of the level.

To be honest, I think this might even be the hardest level I've ever made, even surpassing Genius 19 from LPII.


I've also added a new gimmick, which is going to be used for the Fierce secret levels. I won't say just yet what it is (but the tutorial level for it will be in the 2nd demo as a secret level), but it's based on one of the challenge topics that turned out quite interesting.
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Re: Lemmings Plus III (2nd demo available!) (Completion: 56.1%)
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2014, 05:04:00 PM »
Hey look, another mysterious strange ZIP file appeared... this time with a less suspicious name. :P

http://www.mediafire.com/download/79dqs0de0yb1ds1/LPIIIDemo2.zip

Enjoy. And this one includes some Fierce levels this time. :) "Dead Is The New Black" isn't in there, but "Crossover Arena" is. (I actually couldn't decide which one of those two to put in, and resorted to randomness to decide. :P ) And as mentioned in the above post, it contains the new gimmick too. This one is FAR more well-hidden than the secret level in the first demo, though.

As for styles, it contains 3 Sky levels, 1 Circuit level and 5 Martian levels. One new object type also appears, though I won't say what it is - play and find out! (I have mentioned it before, but haven't released a level with it before.)

I'll release replays in a few days, or if you send me your ones (either in this topic or by PM, I'm not fussed) I'll send them to you privately - don't worry if you haven't quite beaten all of them if there's some you can't beat (especially the Fierce ones, as they're two of the hardest levels in Lemmings Plus history), as long as I can see you've made an effort at the majority of them I'm happy to give you the replays.


EDIT: Should also note. Since releasing this demo, the save requirement in the level that's Timid 1 in this demo has been dropped to 70%.
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Re: Lemmings Plus III (2nd demo available!) (Completion: 56.5%)
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2014, 05:22:56 AM »
Added the 100%ability list to the second post on the first page. This time there's quite a few levels where 100% can't be done.

If any can be improved, I think it'll be either Timid 2 to 98% or Dodgy 2 to 100%. I don't know, there MIGHT be a way to save 93% on Rough 1, but I doubt it (see spoilered parts below). Those two are also probably the most fiddly ones to get the highest possible % on - Timid 2 requires some good fine-tuning, while Dodgy 2 requires a completely different (and harder) approach than the normal one.

Quote
My thinking on Rough 1 is because the only solution I've found requires a bomber and two blockers that there's no way to free (a third blocker is also needed but that one can be freed). The bomber is the only way available to stop a digger that's used to trap the crowd. However - it might be possible to avoid this bomber with some good timing if it's possible to simply delay the crowd / keep them at a distance when there's open gaps.

EDIT: I managed to improve Timid 2 to 98%, and at the same time also prove it possible to beat without using blockers (not that I ever thought it wouldn't be, I just wasn't 100% sure that it was). No luck as of yet on Dodgy 2. The 97% solution for Timid 2 still holds the high score, because the 98% solution takes longer and uses nearly twice as many builders (either 5 builders + 1 blocker, or 6 builders + 0 blockers, to save 98%; vs 3 of each for 97%.)


Also - it's confirmed that Dodgy 1 has a backroute. If your solution involves climbing up the steel near the entrance, your solution is a backroute sorry. So far, the other levels seem backroute-proof - Dodgy 2 does have two very different solutions, but since the intended one is the easier and more obvious of the two I'm not declaring the other one a backroute. I must say, I find it amusing that it was one of the relatively simple levels that had a backroute show up. (Rough 2 might *seem* like it has a backroute, but it's the Rough version of the once-per-rank level, and it's just a fairly easy level - unfortunately, messing with it to increase the difficulty might interfere with the solution to the Fierce version, which is very hard. If I can come up with a way to make it harder that *doesn't* interfere with the Fierce version, I might implement it in the full game - but as it stands, the Timid, Dodgy and Fierce versions all work quite well, it just so happens that the Rough version got into the demo because there were too many other levels I wanted to put in for the other 3 ranks, and wasn't really any other Rough level that I wanted to use.)

One more thing; the first level of Timid actually plays the wrong music. xD It should play track #6 but actually plays track #1 - not sure if I set the file wrong (its old position would've had this track) or if I just forgot to set one and thus it's doing it automatically since it's level 1. Not an overly huge deal though, I guess.


Just made a new Rough level, it's loosely based off Cheeky 20 from LPII (specifically, the NeoLemmix version - the level is exactly the same but the required approach is slightly different). It was one of those ones where everything just falls into place perfectly while designing it - seems airtight as far as backroutes go too. :D I love it when that happens. It also has probably the most interesting use of teleporters so far (I did say it was loosely based of Cheeky 20 :P ).
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Re: Lemmings Plus III (2nd demo available!) (Completion: 57.0%)
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2014, 06:41:46 AM »
We now have a second Frenzy level. I'm probably going to leave it at just these two for the whole pack. Whereas the first one has infinite of a skill simply because it's floater based and requires more than 99 lemmings saved, this one I think you're going to be VERY thankful for the infinite uses of the skill in question. (Without Frenzy, it could probably be solved fairly easily with 25 or so tops. My solution used 161, but it's probably possible with far less as I wasn't particularly trying to be efficient - I was just trying to ensure the level is possible.)

So yeah, we have one Frenzy in Dodgy and one in Fierce - both are within the first 10 levels of the rank. Timid and Rough won't have any frenzies, most likely.


I also just realised it's been about a month since this project was started - well, since it was officially announced, anyway. Just past half way on completion, so I guess it'll probably be done quicker than LPDOS was but it's already taking longer than LPII did. It's a combination of being slightly busy, having to come up with ideas I haven't already used (or at least finding new ways to use them), and of course that LPIII is a bit more complex than LPII due to new object types and such. Which reminds me - I really need to make more use of the pre-placed skills! (There's still only two levels that use them - Dodgy 18 and Dodgy 20 xD). At the same time though, I'm trying to use them in ways that actually add something to the level, not merely act as obvious backroute fixes (I'm fine with using them as fixes some of the time, but not if it's blatantly obvious that that's why they're there).


Okay, so I came up with one that turned out somewhat easy but still pretty interesting. The basic idea is that you've got a sealed-off (with steel) section at the top containing a couple of pre-placed lemmings and a lot of pickup skills, one of which will be picked up just by letting the lemmings walk, the rest of which require taking action however simple it may be to reach most of them - but the key is, you can't reach all of them, so you have to work out which ones you need and which ones you don't. The bottom part is a fairly normal and relatively simple level. The initial skillset is, well, nothing, so you're entirely reliant on the skills you choose to pick up - and you must balance these between actually solving the lower part (there's no exit in the upper part, so the pre-placed lemmings can't be saved) and picking up more skills to use. It does sound complex, but the level isn't actually that hard in practice; the placement of it is very early Dodgy. (Which still means all the levels with pickup skills so far are in Dodgy... xD)

EDIT: Here, have an image. :P
Just for reference, the climber and the skills on the ledges can be picked up from the ground. The others require building, though all of them can be obtained with a single builder each - the bomber and the builder next to it can be grabbed with a single builder for both of them.
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Re: Lemmings Plus III (2nd demo available!) (Completion: 57.9%)
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2014, 12:54:36 PM »
And I just realised (while updating the completion count) - this new level brings us to 1/3rd of the total levels complete!

I'm going to make a slight modification to my DAT packer tool, to also check how many levels are in each style, because it's quite hard to judge for myself. At any rate, I think I definitely better start making the lab style soon, if I don't want it to be as rare as the crystal style in the original game. :P

EDIT: Oh wow, so far it's better balanced than I thought. 13 Sky levels, 12 Circuit levels and 11 Martian levels. (Although part of this last one is the fact that the once-per-rank level is a Martian one.)

Also, concerning that once-per-rank level... I've made some modifications to it that make all the versions of it work far better. Except for one slight catch - previously I had the paired versions in the same level slots (to be specific, the Timid and Fierce versions as level 2, and the Dodgy and Rough versions as level 14, in their respective ranks) - but the problem is, the new changes make the Timid version, while still suitable for Timid, far too hard for Timid 2. The Fierce version however, is not hard enough to be much later than a very early Fierce level. So those two no longer are in the same slot (Dodgy and Rough versions are still both Level 14); but the Timid version has been moved to Timid 23.

Between this change and the backroute fix on Dodgy 2 (Dodgy 1 of the second demo), I'm thinking about releasing an updated version of the demo... I might wait a bit longer though, since I haven't got any successful replays (and only even one *attempt* replay) for the Fierce levels so far. I've pretty much tested the second level to death and I'm almost certain it's free of backroutes, but the first one might have some (though I'm not sure what they might be - the attempt replay I've received was well and truly on the right track, just not quite getting every nessecary detail).
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Re: Lemmings Plus III (2nd demo available!) (Completion: 57.9%)
« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2014, 02:25:28 PM »
Okay, yep, I decided to just do the update.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/79dqs0de0yb1ds1/LPIIIDemo2.zip

No changes to the player, but just to three of the levels:
Timid 1 - Now plays the correct music, and save requirement reduced to 70%
Dodgy 1 - Backroute fixed
Rough 2 - Has the new (much harder than before) version of the level

For those people who've received my replays: the existing replay for Dodgy 1 still works, but I'll need to make a new one for Rough 2. There's no changes to the layout of Timid 1, only a reduction in the save requirement (and my replay saves 100% anyway) and a fix to the music played (which doesn't affect gameplay), so obviously the replay will still work there.


And I'll reveal the cheat code now. It's "DEMO2CHEAT". Some of you might've even been able to guess it, it's a kind of obvious variant on the first demo cheat code. :P Note that you still can't access the secret level with cheat codes, you just have to find it the proper way.

And for those who are having trouble finding the secret level... I won't say its exact location, but I'll say what level to look in:
Quote
It's somewhere in Timid 1.
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Re: Lemmings Plus III (2nd demo updated!) (Completion: 57.9%)
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2014, 04:44:47 AM »
Okay, well so far, two people have sent me replays but - only one of them managed to solve Rough 1; I don't quite think this level is Fierce-worthy but I'll probably move it to a later position in Rough (probably somewhere in the last 5). And no one (at least as far as I'm aware) has managed to solve either of the Fierce levels yet (though Akseli did come close), so they must be pretty good levels! :D

Both people I've received replays from were able to solve the Timid and Dodgy levels without (as far as I'm aware) too much difficulty.
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Re: Lemmings Plus III (2nd demo updated!) (Completion: 57.9%)
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2014, 05:27:08 AM »
The V2 update broke accessing the secret level; updated again to fix that (there's no other changes in this update).

http://www.mediafire.com/download/79dqs0de0yb1ds1/LPIIIDemo2.zip

Note that if for any reason you need/want to play the secret level on V2, you can do so by using V1 or V3 to get to the level, writing down the code, then entering that code in V2. The level is still there; it's just that the secret trigger is missing.
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Re: Lemmings Plus III (2nd demo updated!) (Completion: 57.9%)
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2014, 10:37:43 PM »
So I finally came up with a level that I think works well as a tutorial level for pickup skills - while Extra Skill Required and Flea Market are both pretty good levels IMO (especially the former), they're definitely not suitable for Timid, and I'm trying to have all the tutorial levels in there as much as possible.

So here's what I came up with. 5 climbers, 0 floaters, 2 each of the remaining skills. 50 lemmings, with an 80% requirement. (100% isn't too hard to acheive - I actually intentionally built in a backroute that allows for it, before realising that a simple variation on the normal solution can actually achieve it. xD) And in case you were wondering - no, even if you bash through the bump to make the top of the steel flat, the fall is still 8(ish) pixels too far to survive.
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Re: Lemmings Plus III (2nd demo updated!) (Completion: 58.4%)
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2014, 11:26:51 PM »
Just made Rough 25, which is also the pack's first significantly challenging zero-builder level (I did say I was going to try and make some :P ). It's not a "To The End"/"No Construction Zone" type level (aside from not having the signature skillset, it's also a fairly short level and doesn't require (nor possible to achieve) 100%), just a level with zero builders. It also means that Fierce is now the only rank that still doesn't have a final level - Timid 25 was among the first levels I made for LPIII, and Dodgy's had one for a while too.

Also, I moved "The Soft Scale" (Rough 1 of the second demo, and previously placed at Rough 9) to Rough 16. Not a major change by any means, though it does mean that technically the 2nd demo Rough levels are now the wrong way around (since the other one is Rough 14 in the full game).



And, I've started making the Lab style now. I'm not sure whether I'll reveal some pieces and/or levels at some point, or keep it completely under wraps until release. Definitely I'll keep some parts of it under wraps (there's even some stuff - albeit not much - in the Sky and Martian styles that I haven't openly revealed, and while the Circuit style has been released openly and thus anyone can experiment with it, there's stuff in it that I haven't revealed any levels containing yet. That's why I feel comfortable with showing off a lot of the work rather than saving it till release - because there's also plenty more that I *don't* show ahead of time). All I will say is that at least in terms of terrain design, out of the official styles it has the most similarity to the Brick style, at least so far, though also some similarity to the Marble style too; and the exit is more reminiscient of the traditional exit design than the ones in the other 3 styles have been. (As with the other 3 styles, the window is just a standard and recolored one - it's lightish blue.)

I find it somewhat interesting, too, that there are more levels in the Sky style than any other so far, even though it's my least favorite to create levels in. o_O

Also, all four gimmick tutorial levels are done! :D Only one of the gimmick challenge levels (the one featured in the 1st demo) is done, though, although I know more or less exactly what I'm going to do for another one of them (just haven't actually built it yet).
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Re: Lemmings Plus III (2nd demo updated!) (Completion: 63.8%)
« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2014, 09:44:48 AM »
The challenge gimmick level for Dodgy has been made. Still got to make (or even come up with the idea) for the Rough and Fierce ones.
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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Completion: 66.9%)
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2014, 12:55:29 AM »
Well, I figure it's time I may as well publicly reveal it in some form... This isn't the first lab level I've made, nor nessecerially the most interesting, but the other three were made before the addition of the water object and slime terrain so I figured this one was the best to use to show off the style. Although on the downside it doesn't have any steel in it...
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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Completion: 66.9%)
« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2014, 06:32:17 AM »
So no steel in this graphic style then? I thought the metal bars were steel anyway. :P Maybe you ran out of terrain space?

Still, it looks quite colorful, and I like the slimy terrain and the big bricks. That pipe in the middle is probably terrain, but it looks like a trap that may work well with slimy water.
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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Completion: 66.9%)
« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2014, 09:18:32 AM »
So no steel in this graphic style then? I thought the metal bars were steel anyway. :P Maybe you ran out of terrain space?

There is steel in the style; there's just no steel in *that level*. :)

Quote
Still, it looks quite colorful, and I like the slimy terrain and the big bricks. That pipe in the middle is probably terrain, but it looks like a trap that may work well with slimy water.

It is indeed terrain. I do want to include a triggered trap in this style, but not exactly sure what it'll be yet. So far, the only objects are the window, exit (and its decorative flames), water, and one-way arrows (including down). Aside from those and a triggered trap, I'm also definitely going to include a radiation object (also present in the Sky style, as can be seen in Timid 2 of the second demo), as well as the objects that I'm putting in every style (ie: pre-placed lemmings, pickup skills and secret triggers - even though this last one may not actually end up being used, as all but one of the secret level triggers have already been placed). Not sure what (if anything) else.
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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Completion: 69.2%)
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2014, 11:48:31 AM »
With the latest level I've made (a Lab level that ended up as Rough 20), we now have at least one level of each style in each rank! :D
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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Completion: 71.9%)
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2014, 03:01:52 PM »
To go back to the first demo levels - I finally found a solution to Rough 3 ("Extra Skill Required") that saves more than the requirement. It still doesn't save 100% (it gets 97%), but it's still an improvement over what was previously thought possible.

I'm also wondering if I should maybe tone down the difficulty of Fierce a bit, based on that it still seems no one's been able to solve either of the demo 2 Fierce levels... (and also that it's quite time-consuming and hard to make levels of that difficulty...). I mean, I thought Genius 19 (and to a lesser extent, Genius 8 ) from LPII were pretty damn hard, but at least people were able to solve those ones...


I also just noticed a somewhat amusing pattern in the first levels of each rank: Timid 1's release rate is 20, Dodgy 1's is 30, Rough 1's is 40, Fierce 1's is 50. Although most of them the release rate isn't an overly huge deal; except for Rough 1 which would be impossible with a release rate higher than 49 because of the teleporter. Also noticed that out of these, Rough 1 has both the lowest time limit and the highest save requirement (being the only level 1 (at least so far) in the Lemmix-based LP series to require 100%, if you don't count the LPII Bonus Pack). All these levels are in the demos by the way - the 1st level of each rank in the first demo, or for Fierce 1, the first level of Fierce in the 2nd demo; although Dodgy 1 has been slightly modified since then (the other three are completely unchanged).
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Completion: 73.3%)
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2014, 01:45:00 PM »
I've shown this shot to a few people privately, but I'll release it publicly now. Here's a Lab-style level from Fierce. :D And this one has steel in it too. :P

I won't say too much about this level, but difficulty wise, I'd say it's a tad harder than Curiosity Killed The Lemming, but without a doubt much easier than Crossover Arena.


Also - more than half the levels are completed now! :D
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Completion: 75.5%)
« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2014, 02:55:55 PM »
All styles are now complete; so it's purely level design from this point onwards!
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Completion: 75.9%)
« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2014, 05:50:19 PM »
Time to reveal another previously-kept-secret feature that LPIII is going to have.

This one was a staple in the Cheapo-based Lemmings Plus packs, but despite the capability existing, neither LPDOS nor LPII had it. Well, LPIII will feature the return of VGASPEC-type levels! Or well, in this case, literally VGASPEC levels. :P I won't reveal what the theme of them is, though all four do share a common theme. The Rough one might be a bit too obscure for most of you to recognise; the other three you should all at least be aware of the origins of.

This has actually been true for quite some time - the first one of them was made around the same time as I was remaking the Sega levels (in fact, it was noticing how easy making a VGASPEC for Sixes Not was, that convinced me to do it). Originally I was only going to have two - one in Timid and one in Rough; owing to the fact that Dodgy and Fierce contain a frenzy each, but I decided in the end to go with a full set of four, one per rank.

The one in Timid also contains an extra twist, in line with the theme of the level itself, that some of you may see as a nice touch and others may want to kill me for. :P We'll see.


On a less interesting (maybe) note - Rough, which initially majorly lagged behind in terms of levels made (though not as badly as Fierce), has now actually caught up and has the most completed levels out of all ranks if you don't include the secret levels (and most-equal if you do)! This is partly due to me slightly reducing the intended difficulty of it, but more just because I've had quite a few good ideas lately that don't quite make it into Fierce, in most cases due to the levels being too short. Not that there aren't any short levels at all in Fierce, but any short levels making it into Fierce need to be exceptionally hard - Crossover Arena is one example of a level that I'd generally consider too short/small for Fierce, but was clearly too difficult to place in Rough (heck, I even felt it was too hard for early-Fierce).
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Offline Wafflem

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Completion: 75.9%)
« Reply #60 on: July 14, 2014, 05:54:02 PM »
Will the VGASPEC levels be based on past video games like what happened with the original Lemmings?
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Completion: 75.9%)
« Reply #61 on: July 14, 2014, 06:04:01 PM »
Will the VGASPEC levels be based on past video games like what happened with the original Lemmings?

Nope, but they do share a common theme, and I think most of the players will be familiar with the theme, and probably even (apart from the Rough one) the specific basises of each one. And if not, they're still at least actually position-appropriate levels in terms of difficulty, not all very easy like the ones in the original game were, so I'm sure they'll still be quite enjoyed. :P

To help make the themes clear for those who *don't* recognise them but want to find out, I've also stuck to a very simple naming scheme for them; all four are titled "The ______ Level" (with the blank filled in with an appropriate single word that identifies the subject matter).


The normal styles they use (this is noted in the first post already :P ), two use the Sky style and two use the Martian style. The Martian style actually has its palette made in such a way that VGASPECs won't interfere with it when they overwrite part of the palette; the two using the Sky style, one of these is specifically because the palette changes work extremely well for that level, the other is simply because the Sky's unique exit shape works best for that level even if the colors come out a bit weird (the window doesn't matter as the level in question relies entirely on pre-placed lemmings, just like Scatterlem does).



Unrelated: I remember at one point, I pointed out that at that time, the longest streak of completed levels without gaps was Dodgy 17 to Dodgy 22, six levels. This streak is actually no longer unbroken, as the level that was Dodgy 19 at the time has been moved elsewhere (I couldn't say where, as I forget which level it was) - the level that was Dodgy 21 at this time has also been moved, but another level has been placed as Dodgy 21 since then.
Currently, the longest unbroken streak is either six or eight levels (depending on whether you include the secret levels or not), but either way, it's Dodgy 25 to Rough 5. Whether you include secret levels or not, half the levels in this streak are Sky levels, with one level each of the other styles (two Lab levels if you include secret levels).
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (All styles complete!) (Completion: 76.4%)
« Reply #62 on: July 14, 2014, 08:33:07 PM »
Just made a new Fierce level that makes good use of a lot of new content - it uses the pre-placed lemmings, pickup skills and one-way downs all in interesting ways. The last one is especially noteworthy - off the top of my head only three other levels use them so far; one being the tutorial level for them ("Strike It Down!", it was in the first demo), one simply having a wall with a mixture of one-ways covering it (the aim being to find a way through that wall with limited skills - not an overly hard level but not too easy; it's mid-Dodgy), and the third having them merely for decoration / distraction (EDIT: Or not, now that I think about it, it does have some that are for this purpose but also has others to enforce the intended solution). I'd say this is the first level to actually make interesting use of them. :)

This is the third time recently I've found an interesting use for an object I previously had mostly just used "for the sake of using it", following a very neat level I made using the updraft (low gravity zone) object the other day, and a pretty cool one using the radiation object (the one seen in the second Timid level in the 2nd demo, although this level is a Lab style one - it also has the Radiation object) a day or two before that - both of these two levels ended up in early-Rough, in fact they're right next to each other. Although in some levels, I had already used the radiation object as somewhat of a new kind of trap; but this one actually requires exploiting it to solve the level, similar to how "A Digger Would Be Handy" does. I think I've mastered using the pickup skills, pre-placed lemmings and teleporters by now, but the other new objects are just starting to get really interesting uses too. :)
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (All styles complete!) (Completion: 77.3%)
« Reply #63 on: July 16, 2014, 11:40:14 PM »
I'm still not going to reveal too much about the VGASPECs, but here's a little teaser. :P

Feel free to speculate amongst yourselves as to what they might be, though I'm not going to confirm or deny anything.



Also, Fierce now has a final level! While creating this level I didn't actually intend for it to be the final one - I had initially positioned it as Fierce 18, but between it being harder than I expected, and me tweaking it to make it even harder, plus the complexity of the solution (despite being a relatively short level; the time limit is 2:40 and it can be completed in 2:20, possibly less), it just felt like a perfect level to put at the end. :D (And plus, with how much effort this level took to get right... xD). I'd also say its appearance is deceptively non-intimidating compared to most Fierce levels... until you try to actually solve it. :P
There were two tricks that I had intended to make part of the solution, but in the end, they didn't end up as part of the final result. One of them is already also used in Fierce 8, but the other one was completely unique, so that gives me something to build another level around (although without being in the context of this level as a whole, it'll most likely end up in Rough rather than an earlier Fierce level).


EDIT: Based on tester feedback, the Dodgy and Rough ones have swapped position with each other. The Timid and Fierce ones are still the same.
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Offline Minim

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (All styles complete!) (Completion: 77.8%)
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2014, 05:21:21 AM »
Maybe I'll speculate these designs...

Timid: Look like three different heads or three different statues of different heads.
Dodgy: Monsters by the looks of things, though with the single color on the minimap it's hard to tell what sort of monsters they are. Could be Pokemon or something like that. Well, we know they are SpongeBob squarepants shaped...
Rough: Birds!
Fierce: Probably a Space theme with aliens and/or spaceships, or a sea theme with jellyfish, or even a horror theme with ghosts and spiderwebs. I have no idea.
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (All styles complete!) (Completion: 77.8%)
« Reply #65 on: July 18, 2014, 12:15:45 AM »
Alright guys, I have some (sort of) bad news.

My uni holidays are nearly over, and from this semester, I really need to put a lot of focus into it, which means I won't have a lot of time for Lemmings. The Fierce levels especially take a lot of work to create, so it's very time consuming to work on this kind of pack. For this reason, I feel that if I try to continue with my current goal for the pack, it's probably going to take a very long time to complete, if I manage to complete it at all; either that or end up with a few levels that are duds.

With this in mind, I have decided that the best option is to cut down the number of levels it contains. So, I am only going to be doing this as 60 levels (15 per rank), plus the secret levels; so 68 levels in total (17 per rank). This wasn't an easy decision, but I feel it's the best option for both my personal life and the quality of Lemmings Plus III - I would rather have 68 good levels, than 108 with some of them being rushed levels of poor quality. Obviously, this means some of the existing Rough levels will be moved into either Dodgy or Fierce, as there's already 18 levels in there.

The other option I considered was reducing the levels per rank, and adding a fifth rank before Timid of extremely easy levels (after all, Timid isn't as easy as Mild or Nice were in the first place). However, I feel that this wouldn't add a huge amount of value to the pack, so I decided against it.

Now on the bright side - while I make no promises about when, I have decided that I will definitely be doing an LPIII Bonus Pack at some point, so that will to some extent make up for the smaller number of levels. In addition to that, the complexity and difficulty of the Fierce (and even late-Rough) levels should also compensate to some degree.

So yeah, I'm sorry about this - but I think it's for the best. And LPIII will still be coming (and probably much sooner due to this), it just won't have as much levels. Hopefully this doesn't bother anyone too much. My project for now is to decide exactly how to rearrange the existing levels. :P Once that's done, I'll recalculate the completion percent to reflect the change.

EDIT: Confirmed, one level was moved to Dodgy and one was moved to Fierce. "A Lemming For Your Thoughts" (previously Rough 5) was moved into Dodgy - this level hasn't been revealed anywhere as far as I remember - while "The Soft Scale" (previously Rough 16, and included in the second demo) was moved to Fierce.
I also felt that "A Lemming For Your Thoughts" was a tad on the hard side for Dodgy as-is, so the save requirement was reduced by one lemming - this actually makes a HUGE difference to its difficulty, though it's still definitely Dodgy-worthy.
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Please see latest post) (Completion: 94.1%)
« Reply #66 on: July 18, 2014, 12:56:22 AM »
Alright, rearranging them is done (though I still need to update my collection of replays to reflect it). At the same time I also did a tiny bit of reordering, though not much (the only levels that changed rank as opposed to just changing position were the excess levels from Rough). As a result of this, Dodgy is now complete (including the secret levels), and Rough is now complete except for one secret level - Timid and Fierce still need 3 more levels each (and Fierce needs one more secret level too). This works well, as Fierce levels that fail to turn out Fierce-worthy tend to make excellent Timid levels when given a X-of-everything skillset and similarly appropriate stats.

This also means I'll be wanting testers very soon - I have some already, but I'd like one more tester. Ideally, I'd actually be after a tester who isn't *overly* skilled - obviously, if you can't even beat Tame then this is not for you; a good benchmark (using LPII) would be someone who has little trouble with Sneaky, struggles with Cunning, and can't complete Genius. This is so that I can get better feedback on the lower ranks; I already have two testers who are very skilled and one who's not too far behind the other two.


EDIT: Made a second secret level for Rough, which means now only Timid and Fierce levels remain to do! For the record, the positions that remain empty at this stage are:
Timid 8
Timid 10
Timid 12
Fierce 11
Fierce 12
Fierce 14
Fierce 17 (secret level)
(Some of the struck-out ones have been filled by moving other levels to those positions rather than creating new ones, but in all of these cases, a new level has also been made to fill the position the other one was moved from.)
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Please see announcement) (Completion: 94.9%)
« Reply #67 on: July 18, 2014, 02:42:20 AM »
And since I gave the positions originally of the demo levels, I think it's fair that I give their new positions following the adjustments:

First demo
"Here We Go Again!" - Timid 1
"Strike It Down!" - Timid 3
"The Perfect Storm" - Rough 2 (with changes to stats/skills)

"Boost Jumper" - Dodgy 1
"Dreamy Drift" - Dodgy 9
"Extra Skill Required" - Dodgy 11

"Viva Las Lemmine" - Rough 1

"Just A Garden-Variety Lemming" - Timid 17

Second demo
"Scatterlem" - Timid 7 8
"A Digger Would Be Handy" - Timid 11 (interestingly, this was its original position, before later being moved to Timid 18)

"If The River Runs Red..." - Dodgy 2
"Synergistic Effect" - Dodgy 8

"The Soft Scale" - Fierce 3 (no changes to this one, just relocated)
"Excavation Expedition III" - Rough 11

"Curiosity Killed The Lemming" - Fierce 1
"Crossover Arena" - Fierce 13

"Limited Requests" - Fierce 16
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Please see announcement) (Completion: 95.6%)
« Reply #68 on: July 18, 2014, 04:08:45 AM »
Another one that turned out really good! :D This one's been placed at Fierce 14 (originally it was intended for, well, either of the other two Fierce slots xD). I don't want to reveal too much about the final level, but the second-to-last one is fine by me. xD

I previously mentioned that some existing levels, the radiation object is actually part of the solution, whereas others, it's merely a fancy trap. In this one, they simultaneously perform both functions. :D By the way, you can't really tell from the image (it's obvious in-game from the direction the "solid" part of them moves), but both one-way fields point towards the middle of the level, not away from it.

I'd say this level is a bit easier than either Crossover Arena (now placed at Fierce 13) or Fierce 15, but still very hard - it's definitely not another Genius 18. :P Time limit isn't tight at all on this one - 4 minutes; my solution to this level takes about 2mins 30secs. And by the way, there's no "normal terrain + VGASPEC" combo or anything fancy going on here; I included those danger signs in the Lab style because I thought they suited it well. Actually there's one more too (the biological hazard symbol) but I haven't used it in any level yet.


Also - something else awesome I noticed! I originally was planning to slip in another LPII reference, with the styles the first 5 levels use - it was going to have a pattern of first level having one style, second level having another, third and fourth using the same as each other (but it's a third style), and the fifth level finally introducing the last style. By pure coincidence, this pattern ended up happening after the reordering! It isn't the same 0 / 2 / 3 / 3 / 1 pattern as in LPII (in this case, it's 0 / 3 / 1 / 1 / 2), but that's a minor detail. (EDIT: Hm, numbers don't say too clearly... Sky / Lab / Circuit / Circuit / Martian.)

And as a new random trivia point: No rank starts or ends with a Lab level. You already know the first levels of each ranks (first levels of the ranks in the first demo, or for Fierce, the second demo); the final levels, two are Circuit levels and the other two are Martian levels (so no rank ends with a Sky level either; but Timid begins with one).
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Please see announcement) (Completion: 98.5%)
« Reply #69 on: July 19, 2014, 01:08:07 AM »
Alright, Fierce is now complete (including the second secret level)! I just have to make two filler levels for Timid (of course, even Timid levels need to be good levels :P), and then it's ready to send to the testers. Following that, release will probably be a few days later - I don't expect them to test every detail of every level in a short time, it's more a matter of in case there's anything obvious that I've missed.

For those people who've offered to test - keep an eye on your PMs, it'll probably be ready within the next 24 hours or so. Just got to make those two missing levels and do a little bit of pre-test testing myself :P

I caught a potential backroute in Fierce 15 just before - I say potential because I didn't test if the backroute actually works (it should theoretically though), I just changed part of the decorative terrain that would've potentially enabled it to something that definitely won't. Since it was decorative terrain that may have enabled this, the change has zero impact on the intended solution; the replay I already had still works.
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Now in testing!) (Completion: 100%)
« Reply #70 on: July 19, 2014, 02:57:03 AM »
The pre-release version of the game has now been submitted to the people who have volunteered to test it. Depending on how much and what feedback I get, expect a public release anywhere from a few days to a week or so from now. (No pressure on the testers - as I said, I don't expect every little detail tested, it's more just a matter of catching any major stuff before release - like with previous packs, I probably will end up having to update it a couple of times either way, and that's fine.)

For those who aren't on the testing team; I might still show some more preview stuff in this topic between now and release. However, when release is ready, I'll close this topic and create a new one, like I did with LPDOS and LPII.

Also - if any less-skilled players are interested in testing (with a focus especially on Timid and Dodgy), it's not too late to join the team - PM me if you're interested. I will most likely only offer the position to the first person who asks, unless I think their skill level is too high (or too low) for what I'm after. (As an (obvious) bonus to taking the position - you get early access to LPIII!) However, it's not the end of the world if I don't get another tester - LPIII will still be released either way! I've got an offer from someone who I decided to give the position to, so no further testers are needed.

As far as the identities of the testers go - they'll be credited in the game when it's released (unless they specifically ask not to be); until then, I won't say who they are. However if they themself want to say they're involved in testing, that's perfectly fine - but it's up to them.

(Also - to the testers - if I disappear off the face of the earth (let's say, if I'm gone for more than two weeks), you have permission to publicly release the test version.)

...as for me, now? Kick back, relax, probably finish off playing the rest of exit's pack while I have some peace before having to scramble to fix a billion different backroutes. xD


By the way, I had said this would be the case from the start but I can confirm it 100% for sure now: Apart from the once-per-rank level, LPIII has no repeats or even near-repeats. (Unlike LPII having the Nice 3 / Cunning 18 pair, or the Cunning 1 / 7 / 13 trio.)
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Now in testing!) (Completion: 100%)
« Reply #71 on: July 19, 2014, 04:53:51 AM »
Here's a level from around the middle of Fierce. This one is very unusual for a Fierce level, given its rather minimalistic design, time limit of only 1:35 (and that still gives you about 15 seconds to spare; this is one of those levels where if you run out of time, you definitely aren't doing it right, because the right solution's timing falls into place rather than you having to adjust timing), and rather small skillset. It's a 100% required level (50 lemmings), with a skillset of 2 climbers, 2 floaters, 1 bomber, 2 builders, 1 basher and 1 digger; release rate is 99.

This level would appear to be impossible at first. In reality, it actually relies on a very obscure trick. The solution would in fact work under traditional mechanics too, if you were to implement the new object types it uses in an otherwise-traditional engine; and while extremely rare, I have been informed that the required trick has been used in custom levels before - a bit disappointing to be honest, I thought I'd come up with something incredible when I thought of it. But on the bright side, out of three testers, only one specific level it's been used in was mentioned - and it was by an author I'd only vaguely heard the name of before (and certianly hadn't seen any of his levels), so I think this level might still stump some players. :P

The terrain in the middle is one-way down (it's hard to tell when they're not animating); this is quite obviously to avoid an easy backroute of just bashing through on one side and digging through (and using a builder to stop it) on the other.

This level is one I've mentioned several times before, but haven't revealed (except to the testers, who were given the chance to test this level almost as soon as it had been made). It's the one that I mentioned as originally being a Dodgy level, but being moved due to the obscurity of the trick; prior to the reduction to 15 levels per rank, it was Fierce 15; now it's at Fierce 8. Also, this level was very strongly considered for inclusion in the second demo, and only narrowly missed out to Crossover Arena.
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Now in testing!) (Completion: 100%)
« Reply #72 on: July 19, 2014, 08:18:25 AM »
For those who like random trivia, here's a report on how many X-of-everything levels there are with the various amounts of skills.

I have also included, but made a special note of, levels that:
  • Are X-of-everything apart from one skill having a different amount
  • Are X-of-everything in the initial skillset, but contain pickup skills


The main count *includes* levels that fall into one of these two categories. Also, levels that fall into *both* are noted seperately from those that fall into either one or the other. For example, if it lists "4 levels (1 exception, 1 pickups, 1 both)", this means that there is 1 level without any of those, 1 level with one skill exception (but no pickups), 1 level with pickups (but no exception to the X-of-everything pattern in the initial skillset), and 1 level with both a one-skill exception and pickup skills.


So, here's the amounts:

0 of everything: 4 levels (2 with one skill exception, 1 with pickup skills, 1 with one skill exception and pickup skills)
1 of everything: 2 levels (1 with pickup skills)
2 of everything: 2 levels
3 of everything: 5 levels (1 with one skill exception)
4 of everything: 1 level
5 of everything: 5 levels
7 of everything: 2 levels
10 of everything: 3 levels
15 of everything: 4 levels
20 of everything: 2 levels (2 with one skill exception)
25 of everything: 1 level

And the breakdown by difficulty rank (all of them with 15, 20 or 25 are in Timid; beyond that I won't say what ones are in what ranks):
Timid: 13 levels (2 with one skill exception)
Dodgy: 7 levels (1 with one skill exception, 2 with pickup skills)
Rough: 4 levels (1 with one skill exception, 1 with both one skill exception and pickup skills)
Fierce: 7 levels (1 with one skill exception)



These include the secret levels, by the way. However, if they break the pattern on more than one skill, it isn't included - for example, one level early in Timid gives you 10 of most skills, but 0 on *two* of them; this one is not included in the counts. Likewise, it's only going by initial skillset (it's just mentioned if the level *contains* pickup skills); another early Timid level has a skillset that would qualify as a X-of-everything with one skill exception if pickup skills were included in the count (specifically, it'd be 5 climbers and 2 of everything else) but that one wasn't counted either because the initial skillset is 5 climbers, no floaters, and 2 of everything else.



As another interesting tidbit, surprisingly, Dodgy has the most levels that require 100% (9 of them, meaning that over half the rank requires 100%). However, Rough at one point has four levels in a row that require it; whereas both Dodgy and Fierce never have more than three in a row. Timid also has the same as Nice did in LPII - one level where 100% is impossible, two where it's required, with the rest being possible but not required. Also, assuming nothing is discovered later, Fierce does not have any level where 100% is possible except for those that require it; which is a first for the LP main series (though IIRC, LPII Bonus Pack had a rank that was also like this). If there's any Fierce level that might be 100%able but doesn't require it, my money's on it being Fierce 5.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Now in testing!) (Completion: 100%)
« Reply #73 on: July 20, 2014, 06:25:49 AM »
I've just released NeoLemmix V1.11n. Just to confirm - LPIII (at least the first release) will also run on NeoLemmix V1.11n. Once the levels are finalised, whatever version of NeoLemmix is current at that point of time, that version combined with the final levels will be considered the "official" version of LPIII; but as is the case with LPDOS and LPII, unofficial newer-version NeoLemmix releases will continue to be made available.

Also, the testing version (for those who have it) is indeed, as I expected it would be, no different to the final V1.11n NeoLemmix release as far as LPIII goes; the only changes made since building that version are things that don't affect LPIII (data files in Cust and Prima, and some code that's exclusive to Cust).


On the subject of the VGASPECs... I still won't say what they *are*, but one idea that was considered but not ultimately used was "The Doge Level". Actually the biggest reason for rejecting that one was the lack of being able to think of a good music to put with it.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Now in testing!) (Completion: 100%)
« Reply #74 on: July 20, 2014, 09:29:49 PM »
Alright - I've gotten a lot of feedback from the testers, plenty of backroutes pointed out (unfortunately) - got some more replays I'll be looking at later today.

I'll most likely be making a public release within the next 24 hours, after I stomp out these backroutes (hopefully without introducing new ones xD) and also improve one level that's functionally fine but is in major need of more decoration. Of course, this is partly dependant on the tester's results too - if a lot of tricky-to-fix backroutes show up, I may need to take a bit longer.

Feedback on the levels' quality has been very positive - there's a few levels with mixed responses (some like them, some don't) but none that were universally disliked, so this should be a very good pack. :D There's always been a few levels with mixed responses in my packs anyway - Cunning 4 from LPII is one that I especially remember being such.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Release being prepared!) (Completion: 100%)
« Reply #75 on: July 21, 2014, 02:47:52 AM »
Well, I've decided to wrap up the testing phase now; got plenty of comments and backroutes from the testing team. I have a few more backroutes to fix, and a couple of other modifications to make to a couple of Timid and Dodgy levels; but release will be very close!

As usual - I'll create a new topic for release seperate from this development topic, and close this one. Be excited guys, LPIII is now VERY close! :D


EDIT: Progress update.

At this point, I received some last-minute replays from one of the testers. So what's left to do is anything that come up in those (I haven't watched them yet), and backroute fixes for four Fierce levels* - out of the ones I'd already seen I've already adressed everything in Dodgy and Rough.

* Or maybe three; one of them I haven't decided for sure if I will fix yet, as the backroute is still very difficult.

EDIT: Didn't start on the Fierce levels yet, but I looked at those replays, and there's one new backroute among them in Rough; a very easy one to fix though.

EDIT: Just keeping it updated. At this point, only Fierce 15 remains to be fixed. Fixing Fierce 12 turned out to be much harder than I expected - not to fix the level itself, but confirming it still remained possible. I had initially fixed it by reducing all three of climbers, bombers and builders - but in the end, I had to reinstate two of these and make some terrain modifications. And it still took a while for me to get the timing right in testing it (yes, it's a very fiddly level - but hey. It's Fierce 12. What do you expect? ... oh wait, "What Do You Expect?" was PSYCHO 10... okay, that was horribly lame :P ).
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus III (Release being prepared!) (Completion: 100%)
« Reply #76 on: July 21, 2014, 08:01:56 AM »
Alright, release will almost definitely be within the next hour. And if not, it won't be far off that.

I've finished fixing everything that needs to be fixed, preparing the release version (just some adjustment to credits, and the right settings relating to cheat codes, etc), testing the fixed levels. Of course it's quite likely some backroutes still slipped through, especially since the latest fixed versions of some levels haven't been backroute tested by anyone other than myself; but I think I've held back for long enough - and I can always update it at some point.

The only thing remaining to do is a quick run-through to make sure all my replays still work, just to be sure I'm not releasing any broken (ie: impossible) levels, and then make the release topic. :D 100%ability list will come later - I have a preliminary one prepared, but for a few levels it only has "this level is impossible to 100%" rather than an actual maximum percentage.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)