Author Topic: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <100% completed>  (Read 19055 times)

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Offline namida

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Lemmings Plus II Topic - <100% completed>
« on: November 12, 2013, 05:40:28 PM »
EDIT: LEMMINGS PLUS II HAS BEEN RELEASED - SEE THIS TOPIC!



Lemmings Plus II is a sequel pack to Lemmings Plus DOS Project. It has previously been referred to as "LP5". The use of roman numerals is to distinguish it from the Cheapo pack Lemmings Plus 2 - like LPDOS, LPII will be Lemmix-based.

(If you're looking for Lemmings Plus DOS Project, click here.)

Lemmings Plus II features 5 difficulty ratings of 20 levels each. Unlike LPDOS, which used Orig mechanics, LPII uses OhNo mechanics. While not completely fixed, some of the more common and insignificant (or even annoying) glitches are fixed - most notably the one-way right miner glitch.

Whereas previous Lemmings Plus entries have pretty much just been massive level packs, Lemmings Plus II brings several new features to the Lemmings Plus series, most notably custom graphic sets. Another significant departure from the previous Lemmings Plus formula is that LPII does not use repeat levels! (There are a few levels which have very close similarities with other levels, but even if you count these as repeats, it would still mean only 5 repeat levels in the entire pack.) Lemmings Plus II also is designed with 100 as the "maximum" number of lemmings (though it's not a true maximum, as there are two levels that exceed it), rather than 80 as in previous Lemmings Plus packs.

So yep. 100 repeat-free levels over 5 ratings, custom graphics sets, and did I mention there's a level where you can nuke 250 lemmings at once if you want?


Difficulty ratings: Nice, Cheeky, Sneaky, Cunning, Genius

Graphic sets:
#0 - Tree
#1 - Purple
#2 - Psychedelic
#3 - Metal
#4 - Desert

Demos
As the full game is now available, the demo links have been removed.

SPECIAL LEVELS

There are two types of special levels - Floater Frenzies and gimmick levels. There are four of each, with no more than one of each per rank.

-- Floater Frenzy --
In Floater Frenzy, you're given a small level with four windows, each one close to a fatal fall. Each Floater Frenzy has a different design and the stats may vary slightly, but the concept is the same. Sound like a repetitive task of pausing and clicking each lemming? That's what I thought too, so in Floater Frenzy, pausing is disabled for a pure test of speed and skill! And if it's too easy for you, you're welcome to increase the release rate. :P Long-time fans of my levels might also recognize the Floater Frenzy music.

-- Gimmick levels --
In gimmick levels, the game mechanics will be slightly altered, and it's up to you to work out what's out of the ordinary and how to handle an otherwise-ordinary level under these new rules. These are not designed to entirely give you a new game, just to add an extra twist - think along the lines of Superlemming mode. A unique music will play on gimmick levels (it is also different from the Floater Frenzy music).






** All times are in whatever timezone the forum default is. (GMT-6, it would appear?) **

Code: [Select]
PROGRESS :::::: 99.9% as at 2:00 AM November 30

Graphic Sets -    [Worth 25% (5% each)]
      VGAGR0 - 100%        5%  (Tree)
      VGAGR1 - 100%        5%  (Purple)
      VGAGR2 - 100%        5%  (Psychedelic)
      VGAGR3 - 100%        5%  (Metal)
      VGAGR4 - 100%        5%  (Desert)
      -----------------------
      Total               25%



Levels   -   
    Nice - 100%        10%  (20/20 levels)   [worth 10%]
  Cheeky - 100%        15%  (20/20 levels)   [worth 15%]
  Sneaky - 100%        15%  (20/20 levels)   [worth 15%]
 Cunning - 100%        15%  (20/20 levels)   [worth 15%]
  Genius - 100%        20%  (20/20 levels)   [worth 20%]
 -------------------------
 Total                 75%  (100/100 levels)


The completion % of a graphic set is based on a rough estimate.
The completion % of a ranking is based on how many levels are completed and considering all levels to be equal.

For those who are interested, the EXE running the game is based on EricLang's Lemmix player source code and the improvements to it by ccexplore, and further modifications specifically for LPII by myself. The graphics are created primarily using MS Paint (the classic version), with some use of Paint.NET (especially for recoloring from the original sets or each other), and compiled into DOS Lemmings-compatible graphic sets using LemSet (my own creation but it has been publicly released). The levels are created almost entirely with LemEdit (yes, I still haven't moved on to a newer editor; call me weird but I really really like LemEdit's interface); a very small amount of level building has been done in jLevelBuilder but the primary use of jLB is for making the level map images I've been posting here; at times I've also used a hex editor for minor changes (especially to stats). Since working with LVL files is easier than working with DAT files for testing, I don't use LemEdit to put them into DATs, rather I was initially using Mindless's tool (and still do for building the demos) but now wrote a custom app to quickly pack them all up. The sound effects are the ones supplied with the Lemmix source (I believe originally from WinLemm?), the musics are thanks to DragonsLover, converted to IT format using OpenMPT.

Credits
ericlang - For the Lemmix engine
ccexplore - For the modifications to the Lemmix engine source code, and the documentation on the data formats
VTM - LemEdit
LJLPM - jLevelBuilder
DragonsLover - ONML DOS midis
Myself - Obviously for creating the content and modifications to the Lemmix player; also LemSet.

Special Thanks
Akseli - Finding backroutes, and encouragement
Mobius - Encouragement
The Lemmings forums as a whole - Obviously  :P
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2013, 05:44:29 PM »
Preview content:

10-Level Demo: (LINK REMOVED AS FULL GAME HAS BEEN RELEASED)
Contains 10 levels (two per rank), contains levels in Tree, Psychedelic and Metal styles.
Levels:
Nice 4 - "Now Figure This One Out!"
Nice 11 - "Fun With Lasers"
Cheeky 7 - "Yours Treely"
Cheeky 15 - "To The Treehouse!"
Sneaky 1 - "Good Luck!"
Sneaky 8 - "Lemming Surge"
Cunning 7 "Left-Tuned Lemming" / Cunning 13 "Fine-Tuned Lemming" hybrid level*
Cunning 6 - "Cleverbash"
Genius 5 - "Illusionary World"
Genius 6 - "Treetop Trial"

* At the time of release of this demo, those two were one level rather than two seperate ones.


2nd 10-Level Demo: (LINK REMOVED AS FULL GAME HAS BEEN RELEASED)
Contains 10 levels (two per rank), contains levels in Purple, Psychedelic and Metal styles.
Also contains the groundXo.dat and vgagrX.dat files for those three styles plus the Tree style.
Levels:
Nice 5 - "Get Your Lemmings' Worth"
Nice 15 - "Floater Frenzy"
Cheeky 8 - "The Haunted House" (gimmick level)
Cheeky 14 - "Land of the Lost"
Sneaky 5 - "Misfortune of the Masses" (modified in update)
Sneaky 9 - "Rolling Rampage"
Cunning 3 - "Just Some Leftovers"
Cunning 11 - "Maximum Security" (modified in update)
Genius 1 - "Emergency Rescue Proceedure" (modified in update)
Genius 10 - "Still No Time To Die"


Please note that neither demo contains any levels in the Desert style. This is because both demos were released before work on the Desert style began.

Video of Cheeky 7 "Yours Treely" (Cheeky 1 in 1st Demo) being played in CustLemm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ8U-6AgnKE
Video of Nice 11 "Fun With Lasers" (Nice 2 in 1st Demo) being played in CustLemm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs1duiR9aU4

Screenshots:
Quote
Nice 1 - "Holding Out For A Hero"
Quote
Cheeky 15 - "To The Treehouse!" (Cheeky 2 in 1st Demo)
Quote
Genius 5 - "Illusionary World" (Genius 1 in 1st Demo)
Quote
Nice 3 - "The Downwards Mission"
Quote
Cheeky 18 - "Oasis Crossing"
Quote
Genius 3 - "If You're Lemmy And You Know It"
Quote
???????????

Level Maps:
Quote
Nice 5 - "Get Your Lemmings' Worth" (Nice 1 in 2nd Demo)
Quote
Genius 5 - "Illusionary World" (Genius 1 in 1st Demo)
Quote
Sneaky 9 - "Rolling Rampage" (Sneaky 2 in 2nd Demo)
Quote
Nice 10 - "Lemming Snack"
Quote
Nice 19 - "Live And Let Lem"
Quote
Sneaky 5 - "Misfortune Of The Masses" (Sneaky 1 in 2nd Demo)
Quote
Genius 10 - "Still No Time To Die" (Genius 2 in 2nd Demo)
Quote
Genius 17 - "No Construction Zone"
Quote
Nice 7 - "Together We Sand"
Quote
Nice 12 - "Cactus Island"
Quote
Cheeky 5 - "A Violation Of Lemming Rights"
Quote
Genius 8 - "Panic Attack"
Quote
Genius 12 - "King of the Sandcastle"
Quote
Cunning 16 - "Look Closely!"

Random trivia:

- The first level to be created for LPII was Cheeky 7 "Yours Treely". The last level to be made hasn't been made yet, but the only remaining open slot is Cheeky 4, so that's almost definitely what it'll be. Meaning that the first and last levels in the order of creation, are only seperated by two levels in gameplay order.

- The highest number of lemmings in any one level is 250, in both Cheeky 6 "Raindrop Lemming" and Sneaky 8 "Lemming Surge". The fewest is 1, in Cheeky 11 "One-Lem Wonder".
>> These two levels use the high lemming count in very different ways than each other.

- The highest number of total skills in a level is 240, in Cheeky 6 "Raindrop Lemmings". The fewest is 5, in both Nice 6 "Capsule Run" and Sneaky 12 "From The Lemmings' Mouth".
>> Cheeky 6 remains the highest, but a new record exists for lowest - 4 skills in Cheeky 16 "Placement Testing".

- The highest number of any one single skill in a level is 80 floaters, in all four Floater Frenzy levels. The fewest is obviously zero, in many levels.

- At this point, the earliest level slot in a rank that remains empty is Cheeky 4. The latest is Sneaky 20.
>> Sneaky 20 has now been filled (Cheeky 4 remains open). The latest slot to be empty now is level 17, which is empty in both Nice and Sneaky.
>>> At this point, Cheeky 4 and Nice 17 are now the only slots not yet filled.

- Many levels are designed as somewhat of sequels/homages to LPDOS levels that were widely appreciated or simply that I really really liked. The most obvious example is Genius 10 "Still No Time To Die", but two other examples (both of which also have identical stats and skillsets to the levels they're referencing, though they don't contain titular references) are Sneaky 3 "Tall Tales" (see Medi 23 "This Is...") and Genius 17 "No Construction Zone" (see Psycho 28 "To The End!").

- Compared to LPDOS's proliferation of 1-minute levels, LPII so far has only four. However, 2-minute and 3-minute levels are a bit more common than they were in LPDOS. (Many cases of this are giving what would otherwise be 1-minute or 2-minute levels, a 2-minute or 3-minute time limit instead, because the time limit only leads to requiring fiddling to get the solution to work, rather than contributing to the difficulty or eliminating backroutes.)

- Each rank has at least two levels in each style.

- There is a level that only requires you to save 1% (and it's not a level with more than 100 lemmings). It's in Genius, too.

- On average - and this is purely subjective, I haven't objectively measured it in any way - the psychedelic levels tend to be the largest, while the metal levels tend to be the smallest. However, there are small and large levels in all styles.

- Nice will have exactly four levels in each style. The other ranks are not quite as evenly balanced, though there is still a very decent degree of variety in style usage.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline mobius

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <Progress: 27.5% at 10:30AM November 12>
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2013, 08:55:06 PM »
looks really awesome!  :thumbsup:

what do you use to make the new graphics? / what format do they have to be in if we're would make our own in, paint for example. (sorry if this was covered in the thread where you talked about this, just point me there if it was)
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <Progress: 27.5% at 10:30AM November 12>
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2013, 01:51:38 AM »
looks really awesome!  :thumbsup:

what do you use to make the new graphics? / what format do they have to be in if we're would make our own in, paint for example. (sorry if this was covered in the thread where you talked about this, just point me there if it was)

Hey. The tool I used for this is actually one I designed myself. It's not the easiest to use (though it's not overly complicated), but I released it in the Fan Corner (the exact topic is linked in the credits in the first post), the name of the tool is LemSet.

The format for creating it is best described by the included documentation or the included sample style (which is in fact just an incomplete version of the tree style), but LemSet's input format is basically 24-bit BMPs (256-color ones won't work),  one image per terrain piece, one image per object (with frames arranged Lemmini-style), and an INI file with information on the pallete and the object properties. (Rather than define the pallete in the INI file, you can also create a 16x1 pallete.bmp where each pixel represents one pallete entry.) *Any* color that is found in the input images, that cannot be matched to a color from the pallete, will be treated as transparent. I generally just use #FF00FF as transparent - however, Psychedelic and Purple styles actually use that color as part of their pallete, so there I've used #FF0080 instead. Originally the tool also required co-use of Mindless's Lemmings Tools in order to compress the output VGAGRx.DAT file; newer versions of LemSet can take care of that themself (if size is critical, you mgiht still want to use Mindless's tools for the compression, as while LemSet's algorithm is fairly good, it is not as good as Lemmings Tools'.)

Paint is actually probably the best tool to use - I can guarantee (as long as you select 24-bit) that files saved by it will be compatible. *Any* uncompressed 24-bit BMP should work, but MS Paint is the only program I've extensively tested for compatibility.

EDIT: LemSet has only been compiled for Windows, but the underlying programming language (QB64) is cross-platform and also supports Mac, Linux and Android. So if you run one of those and want to use it, I might be able to sort something out.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <DEMO NOW AVAILABLE>
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2013, 11:57:09 AM »
Demo now available. Enjoy. =D
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Akseli

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <DEMO NOW AVAILABLE>
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2013, 09:28:01 PM »
Of course I couldn't resist and wait for the entire release, I downloaded and played the demo immediately. My favourites were probably Sneaky 2 and Cunning 2. Genius 1 took me the longest to solve, although it's that kind of a level that has definitely multiple solutions due to a big amount of skills. I believe I backrouted Cunning 1, spoilers:

Quote
I used only the left part of the level. Also those traps didn't work (I assume those are traps at the left there?)

Genius 2 gave "How on Earth?"-impression at first, but then it ended up beatable using a somewhat well-known trick.
I was waiting for a Purple level, but maybe the next time. :P
Let me know if you want to see replays... I'd recall that you weren't too interested in seeing other people's solutions for your levels, or am I totally wrong? :P

Oh and yes the ONML tunes sounded GOOD.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <DEMO NOW AVAILABLE>
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2013, 10:34:37 PM »
I wasn't even too sure about putting *three* styles in the demo, let alone four. =P

I wouldn't be too sure about Genius 1 having multiple solutions. Most alternative solutions I've tried either don't save enough lemmings or come up a builder short. Though I'm sure I won't actually be home safe just yet. =P

Cunning 1 does indeed only require you to use one side of the level; and it is possible to complete on either side. I would definitely say the right-side solution is the harder of the two. Also; one of the traps works fine (the lower one), the other indeed seems to not work. I'll make sure that's fixed for the final release.

Given how simple you're making it sound, I think you might've backrouted Genius 2 too... (That being said, that level does have one backroute that I'm aware of but have intentionally left in, because I feel it's similar in difficulty to the original solution.)

And I'm definitely interested to see solutions, even more so when it's on a work-in-progress. You might be thinking of when I wasn't really involved with the Lemmings community and thus in general wasn't that interested in Lemmings-related stuff.

By the way, thank DragonsLover for the musics. =P



I'll upload replays of the intended solutions* at some point, but I think I'll give it a bit longer first.
(* Of course, most of these levels do not have simply one specific solution.)
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <DEMO NOW AVAILABLE>
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2013, 11:55:34 PM »
One potentially controversial idea I'm considering is having "gimmick" levels - those that break the normal way of working in some way, and thus you have an extra thing to deal with. Obviously, those kinds of things would need to be hardcoded for the specific level. Obviously this would not be overused - one level per rank, maximum, and each one would be unique. Also, they would be clearly identifiable as such (my current idea is to use a different music that's unique to the gimmick levels (though the same track is shared by all of them - some of my more long-time fans might appreciate my choice of track, too)).

What do you guys think about this idea?



Also, more development on Purple style! Level map is slightly edited; to show the trap in action rather than stationary. The tentacle furthest to the right is also a trap, but that one is not in action. (The other three are just plain terrain.)

There is a way to tell traps from terrain tentacles, though I'm not going to reveal it. Observant players may be able to pick up on it once the pack (or a demo with purple style levels) is released.

Finally, a random fact: There is already one level that gives you more than 50 of a single skill. It's definitely possible to beat without using more than 50 of that skill, though (think about the three levels in LPDOS that gave you 50 of one or more skills - they only actually used a small fraction of that, it was mostly because high numbers f*** yeah).
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <33.5% completion> <DEMO NOW AVAILABLE>
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2013, 05:05:09 AM »
I still haven't come up with any ideas for the 5th graphic set, by the way. If you'd like to make suggestions, go ahead - not promising I'll use them, but if your idea is good enough who knows... ;) Keep in mind that graphic sets need to primarily focus on one or two colors (yes, I know the psychedelic style is quite varied in color, but the tradeoff is that it only has one shade each of most colors, instead of several shades).


Also, I released an update to the demo. It gives the EXE a custom icon (of the Tree set exit) instead of the ONML one, it also fixes a few backroutes that were mostly found by Akseli. Levels affected are both levels of Cunning and the second level of Genius. (A backroute was also discovered to the second level of Cheeky, but I've decided to leave that one in - which I guess means I shouldn't call it a "backroute" anymore.)
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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I'll release replays of my intended solutions later on tonight.

For those who may feel that their solution to Cunning 1 seems like a backroute:

Quote
First, of course, check if it works on the new update. If not, it was most likely a backroute. xD Apart from that, do NOT assume it's a backroute simply because you only use one side. Indeed; it is intended that you'll only use one side. And, *both* sides are possible to solve the level on; the right side is the harder of the two.

I'm actually thinking about possibly splitting this into two consecutive levels; one which makes you go in each direction (apart from which way you can go (the other way would be steeled off), the two levels would be identical). I did say no repeats, but that isn't *quite* a repeat in the traditional sense; plus it's a one off thing rather than frequently using repeats. L3D also did something similar with Fun 16 and Taxing (iirc) 8.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Clam

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <DEMO NOW AVAILABLE>
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2013, 11:16:21 PM »
One potentially controversial idea I'm considering is having "gimmick" levels - those that break the normal way of working in some way, and thus you have an extra thing to deal with. Obviously, those kinds of things would need to be hardcoded for the specific level. Obviously this would not be overused - one level per rank, maximum, and each one would be unique. Also, they would be clearly identifiable as such (my current idea is to use a different music that's unique to the gimmick levels (though the same track is shared by all of them - some of my more long-time fans might appreciate my choice of track, too)).

What do you guys think about this idea?


Sounds like a fun idea! I picture something along the lines of Lemmings-meets-Karoshi (the exit is a bed of spikes :P). IMO it'd be better as a standalone game, but unless you plan on making 20+ levels in that style then mixing them in is fine.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <DEMO NOW AVAILABLE>
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2013, 02:09:38 AM »
One potentially controversial idea I'm considering is having "gimmick" levels - those that break the normal way of working in some way, and thus you have an extra thing to deal with. Obviously, those kinds of things would need to be hardcoded for the specific level. Obviously this would not be overused - one level per rank, maximum, and each one would be unique. Also, they would be clearly identifiable as such (my current idea is to use a different music that's unique to the gimmick levels (though the same track is shared by all of them - some of my more long-time fans might appreciate my choice of track, too)).

What do you guys think about this idea?

I think I need more concrete examples to really understand how far you are deviating from "normal way of working". Are we talking about like some sort of new game element or mechanics that appear nowhere else?  As an example, even with Clam's example I can't quite tell whether we're just talking about a specially styled exit graphic, or something more fundamental like changing the rules of life and death in the game so that you have to get a minimum number of lemmings to the exit to die (with other normal methods of dying altered somehow so they don't work?).

However it goes, it sounds fun in principle, you just need to make sure it isn't implemented in a way that becomes unfair and unjustifiably frustrating to the player, especially with a "all bets are off" major deviation from normal gameplay.

And of course, make sure the resulting changes in the game's programming is well tested so that it doesn't cause bugs in gameplay of normal non-gimmick levels.

Offline namida

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Those that I have implemented, I've done so in a semi-hardcoded way. Specifically, it's a kind of "choose a gimmick option from a selection" type of thing, with the choice being in the LVL file using the SuperLemming byte (since it's currently FFFF = superlemming, anything else = nothing, so I'm setting a few other values to do things too). So far I've created two levels that use these options. One of them I won't reveal since it'd give away how to solve the level that uses it. The other one makes the level into one that's purely a matter of execution, not strategy, so I can reveal that: One level disables the "Pause" button. It goes without saying that the idea crossed my mind to mix that with SuperLemming and create a really really hard level; but I thought that'd be a bit too mean; so the result is just a level where you've got four entrances all fairly close to fatal falls, and 80 floaters (one per lemming). And no, I didn't set the requirement even close to 100%. (It's 60% - in all my attempts I have never got lower than 85%, so this is plenty of room for error while still retaining the challenge.) In a traditional level, this'd just be an annoying matter of repeatedly pausing and floatering all the lemmings; but the no-pause makes it actually a somewhat fun challenge. I see no reason why 100% would not be possible to acheive, if you can move your mouse fast enough (the level does not involve any scrolling) - I usually just end up focusing too hard on one side and I miss a lemming on the other one.

I'm definitely not planning on making heaps of these - one per rank at most, and I don't think every rank will have one (I'm especially not too keen on the idea of putting one into Genius; if I do it'll probably just be a SuperLemming level, or maybe just something not-so-hard but really fun for the final level).




I also went ahead with the idea of splitting Cunning 1 into multiple levels. In fact - I did it into three levels. As you'll notice, there's obviously only two sides, but there's still quite an easy way to make an extra solution - as you'll notice, in the demo version, there's a destroyable block both below and to the left of the entrance. To the right, there's a steel block. In the new set of three; in each version, one of these three blocks is not steel (first version is right, second version is left, third version is middle - simply ordered from easiest to hardest). Because you use different skills to go through the block to the right than the one below, and the level is a one-of-each-skill, it actually gives two very different solutions even though you're using the exact same part of the level.

Because there's three now rather than two, I decided to space them out a bit, so you don't have to do all three in a row. However, they are all still in Cunning - due to this, I moved Cunning's gimmick level to Sneaky; and this repeated level takes the place of Cunning having a gimmick level.


I also finally did something I should've done a long time ago. For ease of use with the LookForLVLFiles option and making small modifications using a hex editor (rather than having to boot up a level editor), I store the levels in LVL format and just compile the DATs whenever I have a decent amount of new ones to add to the player. I finally wrote a tool to automatically pack the levels into DATs (and fill in the spaces); previously I'd been doing it by hand with Mindless's tool.
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Offline ccexplore

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Ok, got it.  The mention of SuperLemming is pretty good for conveying the overall idea of what you are going for--simple, surgical changes that alter the gameplay but not completely blowing away the normal mechanics of the game.  Sounds good to me at a one-per-rank frequency.

Offline namida

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Yeah - that's pretty much it. I'm not wanting to reinvent the game; just add an extra twist to the odd level.

I very much like that Karoshi-style level idea. I might use that rather than the swapped entrance and exit... It might actually make a good final level. You know, something fun to finish off, that I'm sure many people will find quite entertaining after solving all the more-traditional levels. I never make the final level *overly* hard anyway - challenging sometimes, sure, but the hardest levels in my packs are always close to the final level but before it.
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Offline namida

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Okay, here are the replays for the demo.

For those who are familiar with playtest mode in the Lemmix editor; the control is slightly different - press L, not Shift+R, to load a replay. (To save one, press U.)

Obviously, give the levels a go yourself first. If you're really stuck, you can use these - or if you've already solved it and want to compare solutions.

It should be noted that nothing is considered a backroute on the following levels. The replays are just to show how I solved them. The levels however are just a matter of "solve this any way you can with these skills", so anything goes.
- Nice 1
- Nice 2
- Cheeky 1
- Sneaky 1

Even beyond that, multiple solutions are possible on some of the other levels. Please do share if you solved a level differently; if it's overly easy I may have to block it out, but if it's a really nice solution, I may very well leave it in (this has already happened once for Cheeky 2).
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Offline Akseli

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I'm not sure if any of you guys ever played Lemmings Revolution through, but that included one level where pausing wasn't possible. And guess what? It was a level with four entrances far above the ground, and you had to assign floaters to save the lemmings. ;) The level is at the end of the game, it's titled "LEMTRIS" and yeah, it's surprisingly fun to play and one of my favourite levels in that game. :)

Offline namida

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I've played it, but not to completion.

Proxima: Didn't you see where I said "My original idea was to combine it with superlemming on a really really hard level"? =P

EDIT: Karoshi-style gimmick has been coded. =)

Been putting quite a bit of work into making levels today. Here's a few of the new ones.

(Three guesses what the stats and skillset are on the third one. =P)
Quote from: The answer
20 Lemmings
100% to be saved
2 Minutes
Release Rate 99
9 of every skill

It's a homage/sequel to the No Time To Die levels (this level is titled "Still No Time To Die" - and it's every bit as multitasky and down-to-the-last-few-seconds as the first two).
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Offline namida

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I've decided to have two different types of gimmick levels per rank. Why? Because that no-pause-rapid-floater thing is actually f***ing fun as hell, that's why. So, basically, there'll be two per difficulty rank - a "Floater Frenzy"* (it won't be an exact clone with more lemmings - in fact, each one uses a different graphic set, though the basic idea is the same - and there's also minor tweaks to the requirements and release rate, with an extra twist on the final one), and another gimmick level which will vary from rank to rank - I have indeed implemented the Karoshi lemmings idea (you can kill them ANY way and it counts, apart from falling off the level or running out of time), as well as so far two others.

* Please tell me Revolution at least didn't use the same name as I am...

I'm not entirely sure what I'll do about Cunning. When the plan was one per rank, I was going to leave it out altogether (due to that re-use of Fine-Tuned Lemming), but now I'm not sure. Perhaps I might go with applying the Floater Frenzy concept (no pausing) to a regular level, and not have an actual Floater Frenzy (Genius's one is quite early, so it probably won't be as missed here). Otherwise, I'll probably have either a standard gimmick level or a Floater Frenzy, but not both.

I'll probably put up a new demo fairly soon too. When I do, I'll include 8 normal levels, one gimmick level and one Floater Frenzy - most likely Nice's, as Cheeky has the gimmick level I want to include, and Sneaky's and especially Genius's may be a tad on the hard side for showing the concept. =)

(No, I didn't decide to be REALLY evil and make Genius's Floater Frenzy require 100%. It actually has the lowest requirement of all of them AND the lowest release rate. There's other reasons why it's particularly evil...)
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Offline namida

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Here's a screenshot from my favorite (Floater Frenzy aside) gimmick level so far. =D

Basically, the gimmick is that this level has no gravity. Results are mildly amusing and actually cause quite a decent amount of difficulty.

Sneaky 4 - "Who Turned The Gravity Off?"
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Offline namida

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And yes, you can do this. (See attachment)

Anyway, all the gimmick levels and Floater Frenzies have now been made. So back to making regular levels now, I guess. Was pretty fun to come up with, and implement, a few levels that twist the usual rules though. That no gravity one shown above is probably the biggest deviation from normal mechanics, just to give you a rough idea of what to expect.

EDIT: I'd still like suggestions for a 5th graphic set, by the way. I can't come up with any really good ideas that'd work well for Lemmings... xD
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <48.25% completed>
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2013, 10:37:28 AM »
After I do a small thing for Tim, I'm going to make and release a second demo. Already picked the levels out for it, just got to modify the player for it. (It would be easier at this point to modify the full game's source into a demo, than to modify the existing demo's source to support some of the levels I want to include.)

Demo will include one gimmick level, one Floater Frenzy, and a decent number of purple-style levels (mixed in with everything else, of course). =D 10 levels, two from each rank again, and none of the levels will be the same as the ones in the first demo.

As you can tell, I'm finding making levels with the purple style quite fun, although it does tend to be more suited towards easy levels (that being said, we have *proper* Genius level using it already - the other Genius level with it is the Floater Frenzy).

EDIT: Here we go! New demo! Enjoy.


A hint to anyone having trouble with the Genius levels: While not always required, good use of release rate manipulation can make these levels a LOT easier (while I think they can all be done without it (and I know for sure Emergency Rescue Proceedure can be, even disregarding backroutes), all the so-far released Genius levels (with the obvious exception of Still No Time To Die) can majorly benefit from such techniques). It's often absolutely required if you want to save the maximum possible percentage (for example, the updated version of Emergency Rescue Proceedure can definitely be beaten without RR manipulation, but you'll only be able to save the bare minimum 94% - with manipulation, 96% is possible.) It should be noted that I may in the future create levels (especially for late-Genius) that do outright require it, though never to an overly-precise degree - in particular, I do not plan to recreate something like that freaking evil level Psycho 2 from LPDOS; think more along the lines of Danger 22.



Anyway, if anyone else has played these demos, please send me your solutions! Even if you've only solved some of the levels. That way I can idenitfy backroutes, and it may help with inspiration for new levels if you've solved them in a particularly clever way.

Also - I've had one comment that the gimmick level seems a bit too hard for its position. What do the rest of you think? Personally I think it's fairly well-placed (taking into account that I do try to mix up the difficulty a bit, instead of a completely constant difficulty curve), but does anyone think otherwise?
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <49% completed> <SECOND DEMO RELEASED>
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2013, 08:23:00 AM »
Uploaded the updated demo. The link remains the same.

Changed levels from the first demo are:
- Sneaky 1 "Misfortune of the Masses"
- Cunning 2 "Maximum Security"
- Genius 1 "Emergency Rescue Proceedure"

The first two are just backroute fixes, the third one though is both backroute fixes and a difficulty increase.

By the way - I can confirm that, even though it may not look like it, 100% is possible on Cunning 1 of the second demo. It's actually a fairly interesting challenge. I might re-use some of the concepts as part of a level's normal solution...

Another interesting challenge: Cunning 1 of the first demo gives you 2 minutes and requires 70%. But - can you, using a right-side solution, solve it in under 1 minute saving at least 50%?



Just as an update, 5th style has been decided (but development has not yet started); it will be Desert style. (The other two considerations I had were Orange style, which would be similar in concept to the purple style - generic, randomish stuff based around a color scheme more than a type of terrain - and a Space Station style.)

Also, here's another level map. It's one of the rare larger levels from me. You can probably guess what the skillset and stats might be on this one. =P
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <53% completed> <SECOND DEMO UPDATED Nov20 2:20AM>
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2013, 05:08:46 AM »
Started work on the desert style! Here's the first level in it. =D

At this point, the only terrain I've made is various sand pieces (as seen in the level) and steel (as not seen in the level). Cacti coming soon. =P

As usual for the first level made in a new style, it's an easy level to go in Nice. Though it IS a bit of a step up from the levels before it; I guess it could catch new players off guard at first but anyone here wouldn't have a problem with it.

(EDIT: LOL, 7 posts in a row, geez. Still, it looks kind of messy (not to mention attachments getting shoved to the bottom) if I just keep updating the one post... that and people who are reading but not posting may not realise there's new info...)

EDIT: Added another image to this post. As promised; cacti. =D


Also, I'm considering moving Genius's Floater Frenzy to a position a bit further back then Level 3. Not so much because of difficulty, but because Genius 1 and Genius 4 are also purple style - and while it is plausible I might create more later, at the moment those three are the ONLY purple levels in Genius; I also generally don't pick the purple style as one to design Genius levels with (Genius 1 and Genius 4 were both originally intended for lower difficulties, the former I managed to bump up the difficulty to Genius-level, the latter turned out harder than I expected) - purple style is almost purely rough-edged (as opposed to tree and desert, which are primarily rough but have plenty of straight-edge parts too). As you probably know, I kinda have a thing about levels matching up with the musics; I also definitely want Emergency Rescue Proceedure as Genius 1, and Genius 10 is taken so can't move Genius 4 (I don't feel it's hard enough to put as Genius 16). Though I could move it to Genius 10 and move Still No Time To Die to Genius 16, if I block out one of the solutions that's too easy for that position... The advantage of moving Genius 3 is that it can go anywhere, since being a Floater Frenzy it overrides the normal music order anyway. (Realistically, it'd probably end up as Genius 9 - as you can probably tell by a *LOT* of FF/gimmick levels being placed in the respective slot, I'm not a huge fan of the 3rd music. =P)


Another modification I've made which is minor, but will probably be greatly appreciated: Just like how if you pass a level it gives you the next level's code, if you fail a level it'll show you the current level's code again. This is useful if you didn't write down the code then get stuck. =)


Desert levels are also catching up quite nicely in quantity to the others now (though not as quickly as purple did). They're actually quite fun to make.
Also, wow, Cheeky's gotten ahead of Nice in terms of how many levels have been made. o_O Quite possibly because (while there are exceptions) the general formula I'm using for Cheeky levels is similar to that of Nice levels, except instead of "X of everything" it's just "what you need plus some extra, that may possibly allow for different solutions".
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Offline namida

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Another random piece of preview material.

Cheeky 5 - "A Violation Of Lemming Rights"
Lemmings: 50
Requirement: 80% (40 lemmings)
Release Rate: 40
Time Limit: 6 Minutes
Skills: 5 climbers, 2 floaters, 1 bomber, 2 blockers, 3 builders, 2 bashers, 2 miners, 2 diggers

Getting 100% on this level is quite interesting. Not overly hard, but it required a bit of clever thinking. As for solutions that simply meet the requirement, there are SO many ways to beat this level - none of which are *too* simple, though.
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Offline mobius

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I voted for metal best mostly because it's easiest on the eyes. But I admit I do like desert, though before seeing the cactus I didn't realize it was desert. I though... "honey? beehive?"  :D

For purple I think of "alien planet" ? I also see tree having a lot of potential for some reason.

I'm not a big fan of psychedelic just like I'm not a fan of circus from L2 or Lix either. Though I don't mind them once and a while.

They all look very nice.  :) don't be afraid to keep adding new pieces, even if you just add little decorative things. That's what makes brick and marble so fun to use from the original set.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline namida

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I kinda wish you had've given me that suggestion before I made the cactuses, I really like that idea, but far too many levels to change anything now. =P

For the purple style, I actually thought it almost looks like brains. Especially the exit. xD Though the tentacles do kinda go better with the alien planet idea. I guess it's quite open to interpretations, like VGAGR2 from the original game.

Personally, the Psychedelic style is my favorite. Partly because of it being far more colorful than most Lemmings sets, and partly because the long, thin pieces work quite well with the way I think for Lemmings. Back when the only level editor was a pen and paper, levels I'd draw were almost entirely comprised of thin lines, and I think even after years of *actual* editors I have significant traces of that mentality for designing. That being said, I've had a lot of fun making desert levels recently too. xD

About expanding the styles: Having already released the style files (except desert), I'm a bit iffy about making further modifications to it. I don't really want multiple versions of them floating around (okay, there's an old version of the tree style out there, but that's because it was originally a proof-of-concept thing then was later developed into a proper style). As you can tell from the progress report on the first page though, I do plan to extend the desert style a bit further.
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Offline Tim

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Can I ask if this project you are doing is simply lemmings with new tilesets, or a new type of lemmings? I have made two tilesets of my own under the existing lemmings structure (in Lemmini style), but I am unsure if you are only making your own ones or having more join in?

Hope that made any sense :P

Offline namida

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You could almost think of it as being a bonus game in a similar vein to Oh No More Lemmings (except fanmade). The only really special feature as far as the graphic sets go is that they're entirely DOS compatible - Lemmix players bundle the files into the EXE (but it does use the native DOS formats), but I can easily distribute the graphic sets seperately. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first case of custom graphic sets in a DOS-compatible format - this also contributes to them retaining the classic Lemmings look and feel to some extent.

The primary reason for LPII being available only as a Lemmix player, not standalone datafiles which can be used with CustLemm or ONML, is due to special features in other places. There's a few mechanics changes (the most notable one being the instant bombers) and bugfixes (one way right miners, for example), and in turn these levels are built for these mechanics, not those of the original game. A level that required mining through one-way-right terrain or a bomber to detonate within the first 5 seconds, for example, would be impossible under the normal mechanics. Apart from that, there's also the gimmick levels and Floater Frenzies, which the LPII Lemmix player has special code to handle - though these were more a matter of "since I'm using a custom Lemmix player, let's do this" rather than "I want to do this, I'm going to have to use Lemmix".

But yeah. Ultimately, LPII is essentially just a really fancy (and fairly large) level pack contained in its own Lemmix player, with custom graphics, a few mechanics adjustments (mostly fixing bugs, the only one that's a true change is the way the bombers work), and a very small number of levels which deviate slightly from the usual mechanics (as in, the core game is still the same, but minor details change - such as being unable to pause in Floater Frenzy, or the absence of gravity in Who Turned The Gravity Off?, etc). I guess on a continuum, it'd be somewhere between "level pack" and "fan game"... maybe it'd count as a mod? I'm not sure. Have you played the Lemmings Plus DOS Project? It's basically like that, but with custom graphics and a very few levels with unique features.

And sorry, but LPII is my own project, so I'm not looking for help with the graphic sets or levels - even on the technical side, I'm trying to ask only when I absolutely need to. However, I'm more than happy for you to use my graphic sets to create your own levels and distribute those levels however you like - all of the sets except desert are included with the second demo (the desert style hadn't even begun being made, let alone finished, when that demo was released). Desert style's files will be released with the full release when it's ready. The graphic sets work as-is with LemEdit or the Lemmix editor; you can use my extractor program (posted over in Fan Corner) to extract them to a format that'll work with jLevelBuilder. If you're using any other editor, you're on your own sorry. =P As for playing them, the graphic sets work fine with all the DOS games*, or the Lemmix editor's playtest mode (or if you know how to compile your own Lemmix player, they'll work fine in that too); or again, you can use that tool to convert them to Lemmini format (the sound effects of the traps will likely be wrong though, because the convertor program uses hardcoded values for their sounds).

* CGA/Tandy versions excluded. However, it should work fine under EGA. (However, in EGA mode, the colors may look weird, as just like LemSet downscales the 24-bit pallete to 18-bit colors for VGA (which is barely noticable), it again downscales them to 6-bit colors for EGA (which most certianly is noticable); they are not currently possible to define seperately and at any rate I see little reason to do so - hardly anyone uses EGA now, and in the unlikely event they have to, the sets are still purely functional, they just might have slightly weird colors.)
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Offline Tim

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Was just wondering lol. Besides the videos on my Youtube channel, I am not sure if anyone had downloaded my custom graphics sets to make levels with. My guess is nobody has, but also I dont even know if my sets are even usable to make levels with. Maybe I need a tester?

Offline namida

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Well, you can't edit Lemmini levels under LemEdit. I'm not sure what the case is with the Lemmix editor (it has *some* degree of support for them, but I don't know how far that support extends), but you can definitely edit Lemmini levels (including ones using custom styles) with jLevelBuilder. All you have to do is copy and paste the tileset's folder, I think. (You'd have to ask its creator for a definite answer on that - while I'm using jLevelBuilder for some tasks now, I still primarily rely on LemEdit personally.)
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Offline Ryemanni

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I tested the demo and it is really good. I like the custom styles really much.

Offline namida

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Thanks, glad to hear it! I'm pretty much done with the styles now, so they're not really open to further changes, but is there anything you particularly liked or disliked in the level design?


EDIT: Desert style has now been completed. The last addition - palm trees! (And a couple of traps, but I have to keep *some* things a surprise. Yeah, on that note, I can assure you that while I'm revealing a lot, there's stuff I'm very carefully keeping under wraps too. ;) )
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <69.5% completed>
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2013, 07:17:49 AM »
I got bored so I decided to have some fun with the plain colored squares in the Psychedelic style. I KNEW there was a reason I added them. =P

Also, the completion of the level I made before this one (assuming it doesn't get moved, Cunning 4, the title is "Droppin' Bombs") pushed progess over the 70% mark! Not much further to go now! It's amazing to think that this project was only started not even a month ago.

I also just realised... this'll be the first Lemmings Plus pack (other than LP1 waaaaay back in the day) that doesn't have a level using the Oblivion trick. o_O I think that trick's well and truly run its course by now, though. Even including it in LPDOS was pushing it, but since it's a classic of mine I felt it had to be in there if it was possible (and thanks to ccexplore, it was).
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <70.75% completed>
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2013, 11:17:19 AM »
Here's another random screenshot for you. I've blanked out the skills on this one, and I won't say what level it is, that'll be a surprise. ;)
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Offline mobius

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <71.5% completed>
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2013, 07:19:43 PM »
I played the demos finally :) I liked all the demo levels.

I think I like the tree set more than I first thought. I'm surprised nobody voted for it.

I love the new pass-through wall concept. Did you come up with that yourself or peek at the topic I made a while ago about new features for Lemmings? :P

In Just some leftovers, Are these red walls pass through as well or are they different? I notice lemmings do not climb them.

One small criticism: It's hard to tell at first what is steel and not in psychedelic set. maybe make the steel different.. just something that stands out more.

Is it possible for you to make these graphics available for other people to use with Lemmix or other programs? (again I apologize if you already answered this)

edit: that's a funny idea, with the hidden skills  :D

also, like Akseli said, I too really liked  that LEMTRIS level from Revolution, it's a fun idea for sure. In that level if you press the pause button the sound of an evil laughing weasel plays. I could give you that sound I lost in in my PC crash  :( ccexplore or GuyPerfect might have that sound, they  extracted files from that game when they were testing it out a year ago.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <71.5% completed>
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2013, 09:13:10 PM »
The hidden skills isn't a feature of the level; I manually edited the screenshot. It's just me not revealing stuff. =P Also why I went with a screenshot rather than a level map (on the other hand, for the level with the palm trees, it's becasue I didn't update my converted-to-jLevelBuilder copy of the graphic set to create a level map yet), to keep some mystery around it. At first I was going to say "but, if I'm making another pack, remind me of that idea for a gimmick level", though now that I think about it that'd probably just be annnoying...

The second demo has the graphic sets (except Desert, since that wasn't yet made at the time) included in the ZIP. You don't need those files there to run the demo (as always the EXE has them built in), the non-built-in copies are only there so you can use them with LemEdit / Lemmix / CustLemm / whatever else. And I'm more than happy for you to use them. Desert style (and another copy of the other four) will be included with the full release.

If you're wanting to combine them with the original styles, I believe in Lemmix (but *not* the DOS games, LemEdit or CustLemm) you can simply continue by naming files ground10o/vgagr10, ground11o/vgagr11, etc. I know the player supports this; I'm sure the editor would too as they share a lot of their code.

The pass-through walls actually aren't my own concept. They already exist in Lemmings in the code (indeed, they'll work even in CustLemm), it's just that no official style uses them (however, the game itself uses it for technical purposes; they're used for creating a blocker's field of effect). The only difference between the two pass-through walls are the sizes of them, their function is identical. And for the reason stated just before, they function more like one-way-blockers than one-way-walls (indeed, try building into them). I simply saw "hey, Lemmings has this in the code, why not use it". It's also possible to set objects that have a steel field, or a field that simply doesn't allow you to assign blockers within it.

I didn't actually think about adding a sound when the player attempts to pause in Floater Frenzy. If I did, I wouldn't want to use that one though, since the weasels really have nothing to do with this game... maybe a nice "oh no!" might do? xD

For the psychedelic steel blocks, since that's not a functional change (merely a cosmetic one), I could do that. How's this?
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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <73.25% completed>
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2013, 12:38:49 AM »
Here, first Genius level I've made in a while. =D

75 lemmings, 93% required (70 lemmings).
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <71.5% completed>
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2013, 03:32:19 AM »
If you're wanting to combine them with the original styles, I believe in Lemmix (but *not* the DOS games, LemEdit or CustLemm) you can simply continue by naming files ground10o/vgagr10, ground11o/vgagr11, etc. I know the player supports this; I'm sure the editor would too as they share a lot of their code.

The DOS-based game programming can actually go beyond 9, although rather than a number like "10" it will instead become a letter/symbol in the file name, and thus there are certain graphics set numbers you can't use because they correspond to symbols not allowed in file names.  I guess if there is interest I can post a little more details in the technical board (though people who have some programming background can probably figure out from my brief description how it works out).

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <71.5% completed>
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2013, 03:56:48 AM »
I'm guessing it just follows the ASCII character set, eg after VGAGR9, a graphic set of 10 would correspond to whatever character comes after 9 in ASCII (I don't know it off-hand)? Even so, my point still stands, since you can't do it with simple numbers. =P That's still a useful piece of info though.

Of course, no editor directly works that way (LemEdit might load them correctly, though, I obviously haven't tried yet xD), so editing the levels may also become problematic. Probably wouldn't be that hard to modify Lemmix to do so, though.

Anyway, Oblivion from LPDOS aside, I think I've just set a record for the highest number of terrain pieces for a level that almost fits on one screen... xD (Though I'm going to remove the piece immediately to the left of the entrance.)


(EDIT: Modifications. Other than the one mentioned above. Some were to the skillset/stats too. Changed the pic to the level's current look.)

This one's another Genius level. In fact, it might be the hardest LPII level so far.
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <77.25% completed>
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2013, 02:54:40 AM »
First Genius level using the Desert style!

This level was originally a Sneaky level, then I found a more complex solution, blocked out the old one by removing some skills and upping the requirement, and popped it into Cunning. Then I found a solution without touching the ground in the middle (with a couple of skills added), so I made this the solution, added the water, and put this level in its current home, Genius 12.


Genius 12 - "King of the Sandcastle"
100 Lemmings, requires 97%
Release rate 20
Time limit 4 minutes
3 climbers, 0 floaters, 1 bomber, 3 blockers, 6 builders, 13 bashers, 5 miners, 10 diggers

It's quite easy to tell what trick this level uses; exactly where to do it and how to set it up is another matter.


EDIT: Not due to the above level, but now only 25 levels to go! =D The downside being it's mostly Cunning/Genius levels I have to come up with (indeed, I've been reluctant to fill the last few slots in the lower difficulties, so if I make a level that turns out too easy I can chuck it into one of those rather than it being a wasted effort - if they remain unfilled, it's very simple to throw together a Nice or Cheeky level, and Sneaky isn't too much harder to work with). My other concern is that I don't want the styles to become too unbalanced. I'm not aiming for 4 of each style per rank, or even 20 of each style altogether (perhaps more along the lines of "between 15 and 25 of each"), but I don't want a case like with crystal in the original game where barely any levels use it and those that are aren't overly notable. At the current point, Tree and Purple have 15 levels each, Psychedelic and Metal have 17 levels each, and Desert has 11 levels. Pretty good that Purple's completely caught up and Desert isn't far off, considering how much later those two (especially Desert) were made than the other three - and in desert's case, it didn't get an easy freebie in the form of a Floater Frenzy.

EDIT AGAIN: Just noting, the above shouldn't be taken to mean that the Nice/Cheeky/Sneaky levels are rejects from Cunning and Genius. While that is true of a few levels, the majority were intended to be low-rank levels from the earliest point at which there was any clear "intention" at all. In fact, the reverse is far more common (lower-rank levels getting bumped up when I reassess their difficutly or revise them to increase it) - you could say that a lot of the Cunning and Genius levels are rejects from the lower ranks. =P
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Offline Clam

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <79.5% completed>
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2013, 08:25:35 AM »
I tried the demos just now. I'm loving some of the quirky new features! :thumbsup: Whatever name you'd usually use for a custom levelset, this certainly feels more like a proper fan-game :)

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <80.5% completed>
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2013, 08:44:54 AM »
Well whatever it's called, thanks for the comment! ^_^ Anything in particular you liked or didn't like? How did you find the gimmick level?

Just passed 80%! Here's the level that pushed us over the mark, and what do you know, it's another Desert level in Genius.

Genius 7 - "Another Fall Survival Puzzle"
75 lemmings, 90% required (68 lemmings)
Release rate 1, time limit 3 minutes
0 climbers, 1 floater, 1 bomber, 0 blockers, 4 builders, 2 bashers, 1 miner, 0 diggers

This one's probably going to be a backroutefest... I've already weeded out two backroutes, and I'm terrible at spotting them in my own levels... T.T The intended solution is quite neat, even if a tiny bit on the easy side compared to some of the Genius levels, IMO. (Realistically, it'd probably be more suited to a Cunning level if the difficulty curve was constant, but you know how I am - I like to mix in easier and harder levels at times.)

The name is a reference to the sheer number of those that I've made - they're not repetitive, each one (at least as far as I'm noticing) is quite different from the others, but the core idea of dealing with a large fall in (sometimes) unconventional ways appears to be becoming a recurring theme... (Though in all fairness, they're probably far outnumbered by entrance-at-bottom-left, exit-at-top-right, one-screen levels... I'm notorious for those...)


EDIT: The jLevelBuilder-generated level map came out a bit glitchy, so here's one made with screenshots from Lemmix (and thus, definitely accurate).
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Offline LJLPM

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <80.5% completed>
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2013, 10:32:33 PM »
The jLevelBuilder-generated level map came out a bit glitchy, so here's one made with screenshots from Lemmix (and thus, definitely accurate).
Hi,
does the bug occur with the latest version of jLevelBuilder (1.62)?
If yes, could you give me more info about what's wrong, and could you provide me with the level file, please? It's the only way I can fix the bug. I'll check this out. Thanks!

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <82.25% completed>
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2013, 11:47:20 PM »
Haven't checked with a new version yet but I'm pretty sure of what the bug is: It appears that jLevelBuilder sets a minimum Y coordinate that's closer to zero than what LemEdit/Lemmix can handle. Thus, if a terrain piece's Y coordinate is too low, jLevelBuilder moves it downwards. Compare this to the image posted a couple of posts back, specifically noting the bits sticking out below the steel and the poles near the entrance.
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Offline LJLPM

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <82.25% completed>
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2013, 12:16:36 AM »
Ok. Thanks for the info and the screenshot. Is it possible to PM me a link to this level, please? It will be a great help for fixing this bug. Thanks!

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <83% completed>
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2013, 12:33:39 AM »
Since it uses a not-yet-released style, I figure that's not much help unless I send you the whole style... here's a level using a normal style that exhibits the same problem. The screenshots is a comparison of in LemEdit and in jLevelBuilder.
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <83% completed>
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2013, 12:42:25 AM »
Also, in other news, a minor cosmetic fix I made a few days back but don't think I posted. Like the original games, LPII now correctly says "1 Minute" where applicable (Lemmix will usually display "1 Minutes"). Even though 1-minute levels don't seem to be very common so far, certianly nothing compared to the wild proliferation of them in LPDOS (so far, LPII has only two levels with a one-minute time limit - the one shown below, and Cunning 20 - though two or three minute limits are fairly common).
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <83.75% completed>
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2013, 06:33:01 AM »
Just hit the 80 level mark! Here's the 80th level to be made:

Cunning 16 - "Look Closely!"

Yes, the level is somewhat inspired by Save Me - or rather, by how I approached Save Me the first time I encountered it. This level being in the purple style was also a very last minute thing - I had it all mapped out in my head in the metal style, but then I though "hey, I could easily make this as a purple level, and Cunning needs more purple levels".
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Offline LJLPM

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <83% completed>
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2013, 06:18:14 PM »
here's a level using a normal style that exhibits the same problem. The screenshots is a comparison of in LemEdit and in jLevelBuilder.
Perfect! Exactly what I needed :D It shouldn't be hard to fix.

EDIT: ok, I see what's going on, and your guess is right! Actually, the fix is obvious.
In jLevelBuilder, Terrains' Y coordinates are >= -38 as described in the doc ("[...]y pos : 9-bit value. min 0xEF0, max 0x518.  0xEF0 = -38, 0xEF8 = -37[...]"). On the LemEdit's screenshot, items' Y positions obviously don't care about this "y >= -38" limitation (the highest terrains start at -208!). So here's my question, does this level work well in Lemmings? If yes, what about the Y constraint? Do I have to remove it? Is this actually a bug in jLevelBuilder, or does LemEdit allow bad Y coordinates for Terrains (or maybe Lemmings1 just doesn't care about this constraint, too?)? I'm waiting for suggestions because I want jLevelBuilder to be Lemmings1-compliant. Thanks!

- removing the Y-coord limitation in jLevelBuilder

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <86.5% completed>
« Reply #51 on: November 28, 2013, 12:27:39 AM »
I've never run into any problems with it in any Lemmings game. I know that if you set an *object* to a Y coordinate less than 0, it plays up, but terrain works just fine.


Anyway. I didn't make a post (just updated the progress tracker) at the time, but last night, I put together what may very well be the hardest level I have EVER made. Since this will more likely than not be the hardest level of LPII (assuming no serious backroutes, but from testing so far it seems to actually be quite backroute-resistant - the only one that's come up so far was in itself a pretty damn difficult solution, and was very easy to fix; apart from that, I also found that a digger I'd been using was not actually essential to the solution so as a precaution against backroutes I minused one digger (in terms of difficulty, the extra digger - if it was required - would've added a VERY slight twist at the end; it had no impact on the main body of the solution)), I'm not going to reveal a map or stats, but I will say that the level I'm referring to is currently placed at (and most likely will remain at) Genius 19 and, just in case it does get moved, the title is "Wrong Way, Mister Lemming". Two other things I will mention is that the level is actually quite small (it fits on one screen, though it does fill up that one screen completely), and that the time limit is not a major obstacle - it could get in your way if you're carelessly slow, but with the right solution, there won't be any need to fiddle with the release rate or anything to fit within the time limit (the only release rate change in my solution is putting it up to 99 once ready to do so, though it's quite possible you could an extra lemming or two by fiddling with it further; and my solution has the last lemming exit with about 25 seconds left on the clock).
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Offline LJLPM

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <86.5% completed>
« Reply #52 on: November 28, 2013, 08:41:58 PM »
I've never run into any problems with it in any Lemmings game. I know that if you set an *object* to a Y coordinate less than 0, it plays up, but terrain works just fine.
Ok. I've just uploaded beta 1.63 which allows lower values for Terrains' Y position.
Could you check if your desert level now works as expected, please? Thanks!

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <88% completed>
« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2013, 11:11:26 PM »
Yep, works like a charm now. =)
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <88% completed>
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2013, 02:24:12 AM »
As with Genius 19, I'm not going to say much about it now, but we finally have a final level! =D

I'll give a few teaser points:
  • It's a Desert-style level.
  • There are two entrances and one exit.
  • The skill you're given the most of is climbers, followed by builders.
  • The skill you're given the least of is blockers and bombers equally.
  • The level has at least one of every skill.
  • The level has less than 50 lemmings but more than 10.
  • The save requirement is below 85% but above 55%.
  • The level contains exactly 8 steel blocks. (This is counting terrain pieces, not steel areas.)
  • The level does not contain any traps or one-way walls*. It does contain water.

* Referring to the traditional (ie: can only bash/mine in one direction) type here, not the LPII objects that let lemmings pass but only in one direction (the desert style doesn't even *have* those, only the psychedelic and metal styles do).

Difficulty-wise, it's a clear cut Genius level (IMO anyway) but it's definitely not as hard as Genius 19. I'd say there's also a few other Genius levels that are a bit harder (Genius 8 comes to mind). It has a real final level feel to it though. =D

And as a little bit more of a teaser, here's the *minimap only*. I'll link this rather than post it as an inline image, so those who don't want to spoil themself at all on it can avoid doing so.
http://i.imgur.com/Jq5FbL0.png

Feel free to share your speculation on it. =P I won't confirm or deny anything, but it'll be interesting - and it might help spark some ideas for other levels.


Also! With the creation of this level, all difficulty ranks are now at least 80% complete (two of them are 90% - Nice and Cunning). =D
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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <90% completed>
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2013, 12:55:39 AM »
AND WE HAVE HIT 90%!!! Not long to go now!
Actually, since I'm going away for a few days on Tuesday, I'm aiming to get this finished before then. And that's going by *my* timezone, which is like 17 hours ahead of the forum's clock (GMT+13 here).

Anyway, we now have only 2 Nice levels, 3 Cheeky levels, 3 Sneaky levels, 2 Cunning levels and 3 Genius levels to go! =D

The level that brought us to the 90% mark is one that I'm quite happy to reveal details about.

Genius 13 - "Only A Lemming Away"
100 Lemmings, require 78%
RR 1, time limit 2 minutes
1 climber, 1 floater, 1 bomber, 0 blockers, 2 builders, 1 basher, 2 miners, 0 diggers


Also, the positions of some of the gimmick levels have been moved around (two of them have also had their difficulty adjusted to better suit the new position).
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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <93% completed>
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2013, 02:38:47 AM »
WE HAVE OUR FIRST COMPLETED RANK!

And surprisingly, it's Genius! It's kinda funny considering at one point, all the other ranks were like 50%+ and Genius was lagging behind with only like 3 or 4 levels made.

Might take a bit to come up with some good levels for Cunning, but I can throw together pretty good levels for the lower ranks in a matter of minutes each. So we might even see a release today. =O (By my time zone, which gives about 8 hours until the day's over.) If not, it'll almost certianly be tomorrow.
(Don't hold me to that though, just in case.)

I had actually at one point been considering making it 18 levels per rank (for 90 levels total) instead of 20 each, but... bit late now, I'd have to drop levels... xD Anyway, only 8 levels to go now - 2 Nice, 3 Cheeky, 2 Sneaky and 1 Cunning. =D



EDIT: And thanks to an epic stroke of genius (or should I say stroke of cunning?  :P ) I just had, Cunning is now also complete! I also pumped out an extra Sneaky level in the meantime too. So only 2 Nice, 3 Cheeky and 2 Sneaky to go! 7 levels!!! Since these are the easier ones, it's very likely that we're only hours away from release. =P (I do plan to go through all the levels once they're finished and, apart from obviously checking I haven't left any half-finished (it's happened before) or modified them and rendered them impossible, also check if any levels need a bit of extra decorating. But that won't take too long - I've already saved replays for most levels as I've made them, I think I have like 5 levels that I don't have replays for, all of them in Nice/Cheeky/Sneaky.)

Taking a bit of a break for now (just for an hour or two), since I often find when I try to rapidly pump out lots of levels (as I tend to do when I get excited about a pack being near completion), I tend to make very sucky levels, so having a rest might help the last few levels be up to the same standard as the majority of the pack. (For an example of what happens when I'm trying to finish off a pack quickly, have a look at Danger 9 from LPDOS or Medi 8 from the *OLDER* versions of LPDOS (not the newer ones where that level's been replaced with a better one).)

I would say the levels in LPII are developed (overall, not each specific level) to an even higher standard than those in LPDOS, which is already pretty highly thought of from what I can gather. Plus, almost every level is unique - even by the absolute strictest of definitions, there's only 6 levels that could be considered "repeats", and none of those 6 are repeats to the same degree as LPDOS's or the original games' repeats; they could be considered more along the lines of the situation with Fun 16 and Taxing 6 in Lemmings 3D. Also, there's no outright remakes of older levels (unless you count Rolling Rampage, but that was never an official level in any pack, just a rejected (albeit accidentally rejected) LPDOS V7 level), though there are some cases of levels that are clearly inspired by older ones.


EDIT: Back to work again, and Sneaky is now complete! Two more levels each for Nice and Cheeky... this shouldn't take too long. Maybe an hour or so to make the levels, and another hour or two to go through and check everything's working as it should (and add a bit of decoration to a few levels)...



EDIT: And, Nice is now complete too! And only one level remains before Cheeky is complete - meaning WE ARE ONLY ONE LEVEL AWAY FROM LPII BEING FINISHED (apart from a few last-minute touchups, and fixing any backroutes that come up).

I plan to do a limited number of releases - basically, I'll update the player as many times as nessecary if bugs pop up, but for the level designs, counting from the full release (ie: excluding the demos), there will be no more than three backroute fix updates - any backroutes that still survive after this remain for good. In addition to this, each individual level will only be fixed up to twice. Also, I'll probably set some sort of timeframe within which these updates can occur, and any backroutes not found by the time it runs out also remain. It's just that, while I do want to cut down on them, I don't want to be forever updating the pack, eventually I want to say "okay, this is absolutely finalised and there will be no further modifications or updates", like with LPDOS at V7.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <99.9% completed>
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2013, 08:03:19 AM »
All levels are now complete. Since I still need to go through and make one last check that everything works fine, I'm labelling it 99.9% complete rather than 100%.

However, expect a release within the next few hours.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Plus II Topic - <100% completed>
« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2013, 09:22:13 AM »
Lemmings Plus II has now been released! See this topic for downloads:
http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=879.0
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)