Author Topic: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?  (Read 33932 times)

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Offline Tsyu

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I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« on: July 08, 2013, 02:32:02 AM »
I have been modifying Lemmini for the past year or so and made lots of bug fixes and feature additions. Here are some feature highlights:
  • Game mechanics more faithful to the Amiga version while preserving Lemmini's smooth motion
  • Automatic mod support: Level packs can apply added and changed assets when loaded
  • Support for WAV, AIFF, AU, OGG, XM, S3M, MOD, and MIDI music (sorry, no MP3 support; the only SPI plug-in that I could find broke MIDI)
  • PNG and GIF graphics
  • Level background support
  • 323 levels included (sort of; extraction from Windows version is still necessary):
    • 120 levels from original Amiga Lemmings
    • 4 levels from "Free with Commodore Promotion Pack" version
    • 2 levels from "Book Club" version
    • Apple level (see here)
    • "Going Their Separate Ways" from Mac version
    • 100 OMNL levels
    • 2 Xmas '91 levels
    • 4 Xmas '92 levels
    • 32 Xmas '93 levels from Amiga version
    • "Vacation in Gemland" from DOS version of Xmas '93
    • 32 Xmas '94 levels
    • 8 levels from COVOX Lemmings
    • 16 levels from Lemmings Companion
That's not a full list; there are other new features too.

If you have any questions, comments, or suggestions, let me know.

Offline Minim

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2013, 06:45:12 AM »
Hey, I'm pleased to see an update to something that has been around for a long while. I'm excited about playing all of these new levels, including those in the Xmas graphic set.

I don't have any suggestions, but as you said you made lots of bug fixes, did you fix the ceiling-bash bug? (Which was mentioned earlier in the forum)
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline geoo

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2013, 07:55:50 AM »
I'm really glad to hear about this! There are a few things about Lemmini that bug me immensely, and at some point I downloaded the Lemmini source for myself but didn't get around to doing my desired changes. I have a few suggestions that I was aiming to implement, most of which should be rather easy to realize:

  • For me the most essential addition would be this: A shortcut to Replay a level (i.e. restart with action replay) that instantly restarts the level (without intermediate screens displaying level stats or anything).
  • It's more of a personal preference (so maybe it'd be better as an option?), but for me Action Replay should be cancelled whenever you click anywhere on the screen, not just the skill bar.
  • Make the right-click scrolling speed adjustable
  • A big bonus for me would be configurable hotkeys, in particular all the skills, pause, fast forward, restart level, directional select (but preferrably everything else too).
  • Allow to save and load replays for standalone levels (maybe dump it as filename.rpl somewhere where filename is the file name of the .lvl/.ini level file).

Music support: I see you got quite a bunch of formats covered there. I'm curious how hard it'd be to support VGM, as that'd finally allow to have the DOS music in a lemmings clone. There seems to be a library for that, not sure whether compatible though: http://www.update.uu.se/~bjarni/soft_projects/libvgm/

I think it'd be desirable to have backward compatibility with the old Lemmini, as a lot of levels have been made for it, and I suppose avid Lemmini users would also be more willing to update. So the alternate physics should probably be an option then to be stored with the level (to indicate which physics to play them with), and if not indicated in the level file, the previous Lemmini physics should be chosen (for backward compatibility), maybe with the odd 'basher stopping too early' glitch fixed (I hope no level actually abuses it in its favour). I read in the other topic about your intention to bring back the steel behaviour with all its glitches. So it looks like you're going for as accurate as possible, just wondering what's your goal there. Unless you disassemble the game I don't think you can get prefectly accurate physics, I guess you could get a little more compatibility with all the DOS levels though (though the DOS physics are a bit different from Amiga too I think). Maybe it's better to aim for 'good physics' in spirit of the Amiga physics, 'good' meaning no weird steel glitches, and 'in spirit of the Amiga physics' meaning e.g. miners turn around on steel?

On a different note, shall I move your post from http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=794.msg16972;topicseen#msg16972 over into this thread? Note that it'd appear as first post of the thread, but you can edit it.

Offline Clam

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2013, 07:57:14 AM »
If you intend to include all the official levels (which it looks like you do), there's also the Genesis version which has a bunch of unique levels. It's available in .dat format on the levelpack archive.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2013, 10:24:11 AM »
Music support: I see you got quite a bunch of formats covered there. I'm curious how hard it'd be to support VGM, as that'd finally allow to have the DOS music in a lemmings clone. There seems to be a library for that, not sure whether compatible though: http://www.update.uu.se/~bjarni/soft_projects/libvgm/

IIRC Lemmini's written in Java right?  The library you linked to doesn't seem to be for Java, but maybe I missed something on the page.

I read in the other topic about your intention to bring back the steel behaviour with all its glitches. So it looks like you're going for as accurate as possible, just wondering what's your goal there. Unless you disassemble the game I don't think you can get prefectly accurate physics, I guess you could get a little more compatibility with all the DOS levels though (though the DOS physics are a bit different from Amiga too I think). Maybe it's better to aim for 'good physics' in spirit of the Amiga physics, 'good' meaning no weird steel glitches, and 'in spirit of the Amiga physics' meaning e.g. miners turn around on steel?

Also, IIRC Lemmini uses WinLemm's hi-res graphics, and the game mechanics operates over the high-resolution.  This alone would seem to already get in the way of 100% accurate emulation of Amiga, where the graphics were lo-res to start with.  This is actually why I never bothered pushing for 100% accurate emulation when Lemmini first started, it seems incompatible with the goal of smoother motion through hi-res.

Thus I agree with geoo here, that I think the idea should be more to aim for "good/similar physics" using Amiga as a possible guide, but not going so far as copying some of the more questionable behaviors that were never required by the original levels.  People can always just use an Amiga emulator if 100% accurate emulation is needed.

Offline Prob Lem

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2013, 02:11:41 PM »
If you intend to include all the official levels (which it looks like you do), there's also the Genesis version which has a bunch of unique levels. It's available in .dat format on the levelpack archive.
Say, are the levels unique to the Master System version there, too? I'd imagine they'd be worthy inclusions also!

Offline Crane

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2013, 04:57:16 PM »
A few bugs I'm aware of...

- Fun 14 - Origins and Lemmings - only has a 4 minute time limit.  It should be 6.
- Bashers and Miners don't turn around if they strike steel or arrows pointing in the wrong direction.
- Bashers sometimes don't break through the wall when bashing to the right, leaving a pixel-thick barrier behind.
- Being 1% below the requirement displays the wrong message. It should display "OH NO! So near and yet so far! (Teehee!!) Maybe next time..." instead of "You got pretty close that time. Now try again for that few % extra."
- The "In" and "Time" fields on the status bar all shift one space to the right if the "Out" counter reads 100.  A similar thing happens if "In" reads 100% (although the screen fades too, so it isn't seen for long).
- "Pass-through" Blockers don't work.

Suggestions (if they're not already in place):

- Bashers and Miners should complete a full swing if they strike steel and not leave a 'step'.
- Should bombers should go through their "Oh no" animation if they're climbing a wall? Currently they just explode instantly.
- If you don't have any quantity of a particular skill, it shouldn't display any number at all instead of 00, which may be confusing for a beginner when they play "Just dig" for the first time.  Having just the 10 showing over the Digger tool will draw their attention there.  Maybe dimming the actual icon to a darker colour will work as well if you cannot use them.
- Should a drowning Lemming be a "DROWNER" instead of "DROWNING" to be consistent with "WALKER", "JUMPER" and "SPLATTER" etc.?
- Make sure the Mayhem levels are their Amiga originals... that is, The Crossroads only has 10 Bombers and 10 Bashers (and a 100% requirement), The Fast Food Kitchen has 2 minutes instead of 3, and The Steel Mines of Kessel only has 10 Bombers, Blockers and Builders instead of 20 (and 100 lemmings with a requirement of 90%).

Really ambitious suggestion:

- 2-player mode!  How I'd love to play that on the PC somehow.

Offline Tsyu

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2013, 09:03:03 PM »
I don't have any suggestions, but as you said you made lots of bug fixes, did you fix the ceiling-bash bug? (Which was mentioned earlier in the forum)
You mean where the game crashes if the basher is very close to the top of the level? Yes, that's fixed.

  • For me the most essential addition would be this: A shortcut to Replay a level (i.e. restart with action replay) that instantly restarts the level (without intermediate screens displaying level stats or anything).
  • It's more of a personal preference (so maybe it'd be better as an option?), but for me Action Replay should be cancelled whenever you click anywhere on the screen, not just the skill bar.
  • Make the right-click scrolling speed adjustable
  • A big bonus for me would be configurable hotkeys, in particular all the skills, pause, fast forward, restart level, directional select (but preferrably everything else too).
  • Allow to save and load replays for standalone levels (maybe dump it as filename.rpl somewhere where filename is the file name of the .lvl/.ini level file).
I'll look into implementing these, although I make no guarantees.

I think it'd be desirable to have backward compatibility with the old Lemmini, as a lot of levels have been made for it, and I suppose avid Lemmini users would also be more willing to update. So the alternate physics should probably be an option then to be stored with the level (to indicate which physics to play them with), and if not indicated in the level file, the previous Lemmini physics should be chosen (for backward compatibility), maybe with the odd 'basher stopping too early' glitch fixed (I hope no level actually abuses it in its favour). I read in the other topic about your intention to bring back the steel behaviour with all its glitches. So it looks like you're going for as accurate as possible, just wondering what's your goal there. Unless you disassemble the game I don't think you can get prefectly accurate physics, I guess you could get a little more compatibility with all the DOS levels though (though the DOS physics are a bit different from Amiga too I think). Maybe it's better to aim for 'good physics' in spirit of the Amiga physics, 'good' meaning no weird steel glitches, and 'in spirit of the Amiga physics' meaning e.g. miners turn around on steel?
Also, IIRC Lemmini uses WinLemm's hi-res graphics, and the game mechanics operates over the high-resolution.  This alone would seem to already get in the way of 100% accurate emulation of Amiga, where the graphics were lo-res to start with.  This is actually why I never bothered pushing for 100% accurate emulation when Lemmini first started, it seems incompatible with the goal of smoother motion through hi-res.

Thus I agree with geoo here, that I think the idea should be more to aim for "good/similar physics" using Amiga as a possible guide, but not going so far as copying some of the more questionable behaviors that were never required by the original levels.  People can always just use an Amiga emulator if 100% accurate emulation is needed.
Adding a switch to toggle the old Lemmini behavior, regardless of the default setting, would be an enormous task and is probably not worth the trouble. Yes, I'm trying to mimic the Amiga behavior to the best extent possible with the doubled frame rate. It's certainly not perfect, but it's pretty close.

To help prevent the high-resolution graphics from causing too much trouble, I added masks for the terrain pieces to help keep the original behavior without compromising visual quality. It's not an elegant solution, but it works, and custom styles don't have to use this feature.

I decided to reverse my decision on the steel behavior: The "fixed" steel will now be the default, and a new toggle (I'm thinking of "classicSteel") will use the old behavior. The included levels will use the latter.

I also won't make objects fake automatically; a new flag in object_x will control that. The LVL importer will add the "fake" flag to any object that is not an entrance and has an index of 16 (zero-based) or higher.

If you intend to include all the official levels (which it looks like you do), there's also the Genesis version which has a bunch of unique levels. It's available in .dat format on the levelpack archive.
I probably won't include them in the program itself, but I'd love to make them available as a pack. Are those levels modified in any way other than for centering? Since levels in my version of Lemmini can be any width (like in Lemmings 2), I'd rather not use those levels if they're modified.

- Fun 14 - Origins and Lemmings - only has a 4 minute time limit.  It should be 6.
- Bashers and Miners don't turn around if they strike steel or arrows pointing in the wrong direction.
- Bashers sometimes don't break through the wall when bashing to the right, leaving a pixel-thick barrier behind.
- The "In" and "Time" fields on the status bar all shift one space to the right if the "Out" counter reads 100.  A similar thing happens if "In" reads 100% (although the screen fades too, so it isn't seen for long).
All of these are fixed.

- Being 1% below the requirement displays the wrong message. It should display "OH NO! So near and yet so far! (Teehee!!) Maybe next time..." instead of "You got pretty close that time. Now try again for that few % extra."
This one's fixed too. I've got 9 different ending messages in Lemmini now, and their criteria should be correct. I've also added a feature allowing level packs to use their own messages, so ONML and Holiday Lemmings should have the correct messages.

- "Pass-through" Blockers don't work.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.

- Bashers and Miners should complete a full swing if they strike steel and not leave a 'step'.
- Should bombers should go through their "Oh no" animation if they're climbing a wall? Currently they just explode instantly.
- If you don't have any quantity of a particular skill, it shouldn't display any number at all instead of 00, which may be confusing for a beginner when they play "Just dig" for the first time.  Having just the 10 showing over the Digger tool will draw their attention there.  Maybe dimming the actual icon to a darker colour will work as well if you cannot use them.
- Should a drowning Lemming be a "DROWNER" instead of "DROWNING" to be consistent with "WALKER", "JUMPER" and "SPLATTER" etc.?
- Make sure the Mayhem levels are their Amiga originals... that is, The Crossroads only has 10 Bombers and 10 Bashers (and a 100% requirement), The Fast Food Kitchen has 2 minutes instead of 3, and The Steel Mines of Kessel only has 10 Bombers, Blockers and Builders instead of 20 (and 100 lemmings with a requirement of 90%).
All of these are implemented. (Unavailable skills will not display a number at all.)

- 2-player mode!  How I'd love to play that on the PC somehow.
Yes, I'd love to add this! However, I'd like to make sure everything else is implemented and working properly first. I will also need to learn how to do networking in Java.


Also, I think you guys will be happy to know that "stretching" will be easier, hopefully as easy as in the original game.

About compatibility, old Lemmini levels and level packs will probably work properly if they don't use the "special" style (I've changed how that's handled) or physics quirks specific to Lemmini. Player files should work since the format hasn't changed. Old replays won't work at all; even if I did support them, they wouldn't play quite right because the lemmings are now released a bit later (Just a Minute (Part 2) is still possible, trust me!).

On a different note, shall I move your post from http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=794.msg16972;topicseen#msg16972 over into this thread? Note that it'd appear as first post of the thread, but you can edit it.
If that's the case, then I'd rather you don't do that.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2013, 10:47:43 PM »
To help prevent the high-resolution graphics from causing too much trouble, I added masks for the terrain pieces to help keep the original behavior without compromising visual quality. It's not an elegant solution, but it works, and custom styles don't have to use this feature.

Sounds good.  Mayhem 26 could be a good test to see if hi-res causes any unexpected trouble, as that level is known to have caused inadvertent differences on Mac Lemmings (which also uses hi-res graphics, though the game mechanics still operates over low-res) making the level a bit harder than intended.  Tricky 16 might also be a useful test (to see if the minimum number of bombers required is still 3 or not).

<snip>there's also the Genesis version which has a bunch of unique levels.<snip>
I probably won't include them in the program itself, but I'd love to make them available as a pack. Are those levels modified in any way other than for centering? Since levels in my version of Lemmini can be any width (like in Lemmings 2), I'd rather not use those levels if they're modified.

I think the ones Clam linked to probably were modified, but regardless, I'm pretty sure I still have the unmodified (but recentered) version on my old computer somewhere, which I'll upload here if/when I find them.  I would definitely recommend the Lemmini version of those levels to adhere to the true width of Genesis levels (something like 512 IIRC) for a more authentic experience.  Indeed, most of the post-conversion modifications were precisely to address the fact that DOS Lemmings have a fixed width that is much larger than Genesis's.  Such modifications would be unnecessary when the width can be correctly set.

One interesting wrinkle though would be, some of the Genesis unique levels might still call for some post-conversion modifications in Lemmini, due to the use of hi-res graphics.  Specifically, there are a couple of levels that make extensive use of eraser terrain pieces to "carve" some unique shapes out of the terrain, and who knows how they'd look unmodified using the hi-res graphics (though I imagine in worst case, they'd probably just look a little jagged at the edges but otherwise retain the basic shapes).

Offline Crane

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2013, 01:47:08 AM »
A "pass-through" Blocker is where you turn a lemming into a Blocker the moment he finishes falling, usually straight out the trapdoor.  Under the Amiga version (and most other versions), subsequent lemmings who fall on top of the Blocker (or anywhere between his arms) won't be turned around, and it's a common trick to set up Blocker traps in tight spaces.  On Lemmini, the lemmings will turn around.

Other problems and suggestions:

- Trigger areas for interactive objects are too sensitive.  As a result it's practically impossible to build over the Brick's stomper trap on level ground (observed in my "Iron Curtain" level).  Mind you, the Brick tileset has some weird trigger areas set up.

- Builders turn around if any of their body hits an obstruction (or is embedded in it).  This makes it very hard to build up through thin floors (e.g. King of the Castle).  Under Amiga and other versions, I believe only the top of his head and his feet are checked.

- On levels with only 1:00 on the clock, does it display "Time: 1 Minutes" (Amiga version) or the more grammatically correct "Time: 1 Minute" (DOS version)?

- If a custom trap (e.g. the compressor in the Marble tileset) kills the last lemming, it should be allowed to complete its animation before the level ends.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2013, 01:51:59 AM »
I've attached a zip of all Genesis Lemmings levels that were "recentered but not modified".  (Note: Sunsft18.lvl is a special graphics level.  I'll have to dig deeper to see if I can find a VGASPEC for the graphics, though I'm pretty sure I have at least the terrain bitmap if nothing else.)  Use 512 as the width for now.

Offline Tsyu

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2013, 05:25:31 AM »
A "pass-through" Blocker is where you turn a lemming into a Blocker the moment he finishes falling, usually straight out the trapdoor.  Under the Amiga version (and most other versions), subsequent lemmings who fall on top of the Blocker (or anywhere between his arms) won't be turned around, and it's a common trick to set up Blocker traps in tight spaces.  On Lemmini, the lemmings will turn around.
That's what I thought you meant. Yes, this is fixed in my version.

- Trigger areas for interactive objects are too sensitive.  As a result it's practically impossible to build over the Brick's stomper trap on level ground (observed in my "Iron Curtain" level).  Mind you, the Brick tileset has some weird trigger areas set up.
Fixed. I used the data from the DOS version to make the new object masks. (I don't think any object trigger areas differ between the Amiga and DOS versions. If they do, let me know.)

- Builders turn around if any of their body hits an obstruction (or is embedded in it).  This makes it very hard to build up through thin floors (e.g. King of the Castle).  Under Amiga and other versions, I believe only the top of his head and his feet are checked.
Also fixed. You're correct about that last statement.

- On levels with only 1:00 on the clock, does it display "Time: 1 Minutes" (Amiga version) or the more grammatically correct "Time: 1 Minute" (DOS version)?
I checked the Amiga version just now and it does say "1 Minute." But yes, my version is grammatically correct here.

- If a custom trap (e.g. the compressor in the Marble tileset) kills the last lemming, it should be allowed to complete its animation before the level ends.
Since this doesn't affect gameplay, I'll look into adding this.

Offline mobius

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2013, 02:57:08 AM »
I’m glad that you’ve decided to make the old mechanics options which can be turned on and off. It’s a good method actually, Making it easy for one to test out something like challenges on the old mechanics but play newly created levels without the hassle of those broken mechanics.
When creating levels for Lemmix [that is DOS like mechanics (closer to Amiga than Lemmini currently is)] I find it annoying that you need to align the steel and all objects up to a non-helpful grid and only the Lemmings feet entering object triggers work, and other bothersome attributes.

And I do like the idea of including the original levels and using versions of those levels from Amiga which are better imo, with the proper stats and little graphical details like liquid across the bottom of many levels.
Btw, the current Lemmini original game levels are mostly of the Windows Lemmings version aren’t they; for example; the liquid across the bottom of many levels from Amiga is missing.

I must agree with something rtw said once; I prefer the black background of DOS over the blue of the Amiga. Excluding anything in regards to custom backgrounds, I think that’s a cool idea, but I’d prefer the default to be black.

One interesting wrinkle though would be, some of the Genesis unique levels might still call for some post-conversion modifications in Lemmini, due to the use of hi-res graphics.  Specifically, there are a couple of levels that make extensive use of eraser terrain pieces to "carve" some unique shapes out of the terrain, and who knows how they'd look unmodified using the hi-res graphics (though I imagine in worst case, they'd probably just look a little jagged at the edges but otherwise retain the basic shapes).

I’m not sure I get what you mean but I’ve played a large number of the Genesis levels in Lemmini (using both lvl and ini) and the levels look fine.

There is a problem however, and I’m not sure if you addressed this or not: Some Genesis levels are impossible like “Everyone turn left” if miners don’t turn when they hit one way walls (facing the wrong direction). (as is the current Lemmini behavior)

- Trigger areas for interactive objects are too sensitive.  As a result it's practically impossible to build over the Brick's stomper trap on level ground (observed in my "Iron Curtain" level).  Mind you, the Brick tileset has some weird trigger areas set up.
Fixed. I used the data from the DOS version to make the new object masks. (I don't think any object trigger areas differ between the Amiga and DOS versions. If they do, let me know.)

This is good. However, it's also true that the object triggers in regards to the exits are vastly improved in Lemmini since they are larger and make it easier to place in the level (you don't have to align it the grid or put a stupid piece of terrain there to make it work. So I'd say fix the traps but keep the exits the same.

Some other features I didn’t see mentioned that would be nice: (these are present in DOS/Lemmix.)

-When creating a game pack, somehow be able to see the codes to all your levels. Currently there is no way to “skip” a level in a game pack other than leaving the “game” and loading the level individually which is generally a pain since usually the levels aren’t titled but only have a number.

-Pieuw just alerted me to a possible strange glitch in Lemmini; the level codes not working as they should.  I suspect not much investigation has ever been done in this area (since not many people even use the codes anymore?). But I don’t know the details yet.

-blockers turn around ALL lemmings; that includes lemmings falling, climbing, building bashing, mining, digging, floating etc…

-when a digger is on nothing but air, he can still be assigned tasks like builder, this makes it easy to have a lemming move horizontally across the level by digging and building.
There are more things like this but it’s getting pretty technical and I don’t entirely like all of them anyway, and can do without them.

I recommend looking at this topic: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=5b763a88f47991c45a8b9c996386cffa&topic=693.0

Keep in mind, many of these glitches are still under investigation.


-----------------------------
btw, here is how to save replays in the current Lemmini: (maybe this should be put in the sticky help topic?)
How to save a replay (of a non-game level) file in Lemmini:

after playing a level successfully; select “replay” on the completion menu screen and watch the replay to its end. Go to your root Lemmini folder and find a file called “replay.rpl” this is the file. Copy/paste it somewhere else and rename it whatever you want.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline ccexplore

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2013, 06:49:29 AM »
I’m glad that you’ve decided to make the old mechanics options which can be turned on and off. It’s a good method actually, Making it easy for one to test out something like challenges on the old mechanics but play newly created levels without the hassle of those broken mechanics.

Actually you misread, Tsyu is saying it would be too much trouble to try to keep both mechanics around:

Adding a switch to toggle the old Lemmini behavior, regardless of the default setting, would be an enormous task and is probably not worth the trouble.

I supposed you can always just keep the old version of Lemmini around for any levels/playings that required its specific behavior.

One interesting wrinkle though would be, some of the Genesis unique levels might still call for some post-conversion modifications in Lemmini, due to the use of hi-res graphics.  Specifically, there are a couple of levels that make extensive use of eraser terrain pieces to "carve" some unique shapes out of the terrain, and who knows how they'd look unmodified using the hi-res graphics (though I imagine in worst case, they'd probably just look a little jagged at the edges but otherwise retain the basic shapes).

I’m not sure I get what you mean but I’ve played a large number of the Genesis levels in Lemmini (using both lvl and ini) and the levels look fine.

Present 14 is one example I have in mind, where the perfectly circular holes in the two "rings" are meticulously carved out by many eraser terrain pieces:



To be clear, I'm not saying that the hi-res version would look totally wrong, just that you will likely get low-res artifacts from these kinds of terrain constructions, and they might stick out against the otherwise hi-res graphics.  Of course I don't have Lemmini set up to confirm, so this might end up not a problem.  And of course this is a non-issue for most levels which are "normal".

Offline mobius

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2013, 02:17:27 PM »
then what does this mean?
I decided to reverse my decision on the steel behavior: The "fixed" steel will now be the default, and a new toggle (I'm thinking of "classicSteel") will use the old behavior. The included levels will use the latter.

I also won't make objects fake automatically; a new flag in object_x will control that. The LVL importer will add the "fake" flag to any object that is not an entrance and has an index of 16 (zero-based) or higher.

in any case; I'll have to admit my preferences. I don’t mean to squash your ambition Tsyu, so please don’t take this too harshly. For myself, and I think most other of the Lemmini users; we are really not interested in a program that emulates the old games exactly. They are inferior. Since we have new technology why are we not trying to make programs that have better mechanics while keeping the charm of the old games?
Like already said; if someone wants the feel of Amiga they can use an emulator.
If this Lemmini has features that make many of the Lemmini levels/levelpacks not work they probably won't use it.

ccexplore: I believe I did play that particular level in Lemmini and I think it looks exactly the same, but I'll check again sometime.
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Offline Crane

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2013, 05:12:27 PM »
It's about striking a balance.  Personally I prefer the 'modern' steel behaviour where nothing within the steel zones can be cleared - it makes for more consistent and reliable gameplay - while I prefer the old behaviour of miners and bashers always completing a full stroke and reversing direction if they hit something they cannot penetrate.

I'm all for fixing glitches and obvious exploits (e.g. walking along the top of the level, or blockers negating one-way arrows and steel zones etc) but if Lemmini does something in a particular way that isn't broken per se, then it might not be worth fixing.  There's no fixed formula to it though - what some people like others won't.

Offline mobius

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2013, 08:31:40 PM »
Also; great idea to make it compatible with other sound formats.
-----
Pieuw says the game sometimes gives you only 9 letters for the code, in other words it’s incomplete. And when entering this code, put an underscore at the end, that works. No idea why this happens.
-------

here is screenshot of that present level. Looks good to me  :)

It is an issue with the mechanics though; for example in the level I made "the Italian Job" and Crane's level Oil Rig; bashers can't bash across a relatively low piece of terrain of which they can in Lemmix.
-One wooden horizontal bar from the pillar set can be bashed through, if the lemming stands on one pixel of terrain (of the the wood). In other words from the top of the wood he can dig down until 1 pixel left then bash through the rest of the wood successfully. in Lemmix. This is not possible in Lemmini, he'll take 1 swing then walk on. I don't remember what happens exactly I'd have to check it out.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2013, 08:34:59 PM »
then what does this mean?
I decided to reverse my decision on the steel behavior: The "fixed" steel will now be the default, and a new toggle (I'm thinking of "classicSteel") will use the old behavior. The included levels will use the latter.

That only affects the steel behavior specifically and not every current Lemmini behaviors.  I couldn't tell from your post's wording that you were referring specifically to the steel toggle.

==========

I think from the perspective of most custom level designers, the "old" steel behavior tends to be much more of a bane, as it tends to provide too many ways for the player to take advantage and bypass the steel areas that were placed specifically to prevent certain backroutes.  So I see enabling the old steel behavior mainly accomplishes two things:

- enable in Lemmini solutions to the original games' levels that rely on the behavior.  We already know that none of those levels require the behavior to solve, so this affects more the "challenge" type solutions that needed the behavior to achieve the challenge's goals.

- enable in Lemmini solutions to CustLemm levels that actually require the behavior.  I don't think too many such levels require the behavior either, but I'm sure there are a few that do, so there's a small gain in this if the old behavior is supported.

==========

[completely different point below, but don't want to double-post]

Any chance that Lemmini can support creating a video recording out of an action replay?  As in a Youtube-uploadable video without requiring separate video recording and editing software?

Offline ccexplore

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2013, 09:00:56 PM »
here is screenshot of that present level.

Thanks.  Any chance you can get a screenshot of Genesis Tricky 10 (it's different from the normal DOS one) in Lemmini?  I want to see what the "curved pillars" normally look like without the "carvings" done on Present 14.  From your screenshot, it kinda looks like they didn't actually update all the terrain graphics for hi-res, in which case my concern about seeing low-res artifacts might well be moot.

Offline mobius

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2013, 09:51:59 PM »
I first played the Genesis levels on Lemmini, that's how I knew. In this level they are just more pillars, (erased). In that Present level it's a bunch of grey circles.

Btw, you probably know but playing mechanics work differently if your playing a lvl file verses an ini one in Lemmini. They look identical however. I don't know all of the differences except the lazy climber glitch only happens with ini. Well the ini's are the higher res graphics I guess; I don't know how that works.

I started using tricks like these too, after seeing the Genesis levels.
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Offline Tsyu

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2013, 10:29:16 PM »
This is good. However, it's also true that the object triggers in regards to the exits are vastly improved in Lemmini since they are larger and make it easier to place in the level (you don't have to align it the grid or put a stupid piece of terrain there to make it work. So I'd say fix the traps but keep the exits the same.
I'm making all of the trigger areas the same as they were in the original game. However, if you want to use larger or smaller trigger areas for your levels, you'll be able to do that if your levels are distributed as packs. Rest assured, though, that trigger areas won't be locked to a 4x4 or 8x8 grid.

-When creating a game pack, somehow be able to see the codes to all your levels. Currently there is no way to “skip” a level in a game pack other than leaving the “game” and loading the level individually which is generally a pain since usually the levels aren’t titled but only have a number.
Or I could add an "allLevelsUnlocked" parameter to levelpack.ini to have all levels unlocked from the start. (And you can always enter "0xdeadbeef" as a code...)

-Pieuw just alerted me to a possible strange glitch in Lemmini; the level codes not working as they should.  I suspect not much investigation has ever been done in this area (since not many people even use the codes anymore?). But I don’t know the details yet.
Pieuw says the game sometimes gives you only 9 letters for the code, in other words it’s incomplete. And when entering this code, put an underscore at the end, that works. No idea why this happens.
I did make make some changes to the level-code system to make it more accurate to the original game; that may or may not have fixed this problem. Do you or Pieuw have an example of a level that ever does this?

-blockers turn around ALL lemmings; that includes lemmings falling, climbing, building bashing, mining, digging, floating etc…

-when a digger is on nothing but air, he can still be assigned tasks like builder, this makes it easy to have a lemming move horizontally across the level by digging and building.
Both of these have been fixed.

Any chance that Lemmini can support creating a video recording out of an action replay?  As in a Youtube-uploadable video without requiring separate video recording and editing software?
I agree that this is a good feature to have, but it will probably take some time to implement and will most likely not be in the initial release.

Offline mobius

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2013, 09:36:30 PM »
Pieuw says the game sometimes gives you only 9 letters for the code, in other words it’s incomplete. And when entering this code, put an underscore at the end, that works. No idea why this happens.
I did make make some changes to the level-code system to make it more accurate to the original game; that may or may not have fixed this problem. Do you or Pieuw have an example of a level that ever does this?

he just encountered it recently playing his own level pack (which isn’t released yet) I have never encountered this problem at all, sorry. He said it happened quite a bit but this was the first time apparently.

----------
here are a few more items that are not real important but would be a nice touch imo:

-be able to assign blockers climber/floater (while blocking)

-Lemmings that are selected under the cursor turn a different color. This makes it very easy to tell exactly which lemming is being selected in a crowd.

-I prefer the FF button to be a hold-down instead of toggle. The reason is I often use FF for short periods of time and it's easier to use this way and harder to make a mistake by accidentally leaving it on. To compensate for this add a button that does 10 time skip like in Lemmix.

-to select walkers over worker; instead of pressing up arrow key or some other key, use right mouse click. Right clicking both scrolls and selects walker in Lix and works pretty nicely. But I can see someone not liking it. Something else I just thought of to take care of this:
Require a key to be held down when using right mouse button to scroll. Or not have to click at all; when a key is held down, it locks the cursor in place and moving the mouse then scrolls without any other clicks. I’d like to try this out.
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Offline Tsyu

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2013, 06:47:29 AM »
he just encountered it recently playing his own level pack (which isn’t released yet) I have never encountered this problem at all, sorry. He said it happened quite a bit but this was the first time apparently.
It sounds like the tenth letter of the level pack's code seed is too close to Z. Setting it to K or an earlier letter should do the trick.

-be able to assign blockers climber/floater (while blocking)
While this is easy to implement (and the original Lemmini allows this), it isn't possible in the original game, so I don't think I'll enable it unless more people request it (and even then, it won't be allowed in the original levels).

-Lemmings that are selected under the cursor turn a different color. This makes it very easy to tell exactly which lemming is being selected in a crowd.
To be honest, I don't like this idea. After all, the game does tell you what kind of lemming is highlighted. You can also use the walker-only and left/right selection filters (which my version of Lemmini will let you use together). I also greatly improved the selection priority system, so walkers never have priority over workers unless no worker under the cursor can take the selected skill.

-I prefer the FF button to be a hold-down instead of toggle. The reason is I often use FF for short periods of time and it's easier to use this way and harder to make a mistake by accidentally leaving it on. To compensate for this add a button that does 10 time skip like in Lemmix.
I'll try making this an option. However, I don't think the 10-second skip is a good idea for a number of reasons.

-to select walkers over worker; instead of pressing up arrow key or some other key, use right mouse click. Right clicking both scrolls and selects walker in Lix and works pretty nicely. But I can see someone not liking it. Something else I just thought of to take care of this:
Require a key to be held down when using right mouse button to scroll. Or not have to click at all; when a key is held down, it locks the cursor in place and moving the mouse then scrolls without any other clicks. I’d like to try this out.
I currently have the right mouse button do what it did in the original game: select only walkers, and increase the scrolling speed when the cursor is moved to the edge of the window. The middle button is currently assigned to scrolling. I think I can add an option to swap the behavior of these buttons. However, I don't think it's possible to lock the cursor in Java, at least not without using a software-drawn cursor.

Offline mobius

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2013, 03:59:48 PM »
ooh, I forgot something I’d really like:
[again, I apologize for making these all in separate posts but there are so many things I can’t think of them all at once]
-on the menu screen, besides the percentage save requirement have the exact number of lemmings required displayed also.

(these I'm not real excited about but they are handy feature I think)
-slow motion
-zoom

---------
In Dodochocalo's first version of Dovelems there are underscores and other odd symbols in his codes. Idk how he got those. I still didn't even try any of this out. But I will be once I start doing this for the community pack.
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Offline mobius

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2013, 09:02:32 PM »
here are a few interesting things I remembered while playing recently:

-sometimes (often actually) the game lags by “pausing” then it speeds up as if to catch up.

-[in Lemmini] if a bomber is standing on a thin piece of steel, so that it’s bombing mask extends below the steel and there is terrain below that steel, the corresponding terrain (not the steel) will get erased. It’s weird because the steel is intact. Personally, Idk if I like this or not, or if it seems like a good mechanic or bad. I don’t really care either way right now. I have only encountered (to notice it) it in one level so far. In all the Lemmini levels I played and I have not seen it utilized at all for any purpose. Maybe others don’t find this weird at all.

-some of the terrain [most notably] the rocks in marble set have such a dark shading that it’s difficult to tell where the terrain is. That is; it’s black like the black parts in the crystal set. It’s not like this in DOS. Also the "mountain" like piece from marble [in Lemmini only] has what appears like a small "hole" on the left side, so that things behind it show through. It looks odd.
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Offline Tsyu

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2013, 02:48:25 AM »
-on the menu screen, besides the percentage save requirement have the exact number of lemmings required displayed also.
Like this?
Quote
87% (70) to be saved
I personally don't like the way it looks. I think it would be better to have an option to toggle between percentage and number.

I did make a change so that the percentage is not used if there are more than 100 lemmings; a percentage would not be precise enough in that case.

(these I'm not real excited about but they are handy feature I think)
-slow motion
-zoom
If I do implement slow motion, I'll most likely make it a cheat, considering that it would make some levels easier than they're meant to be. I'll admit, though, that it would be a great developer tool, especially if it's adjustable. As for zoom, that looks much harder to implement, so it's probably not coming anytime soon.

-sometimes (often actually) the game lags by “pausing” then it speeds up as if to catch up.
The pausing sometimes happens when the open() method of a sound clip is called. I really don't know how to fix this. I did, however, fix the fast-forwarding that happens afterward. (And yes, it is supposed to be catching up; the developer was apparently intent on making the game clock match real time, no matter what happens.)

-[in Lemmini] if a bomber is standing on a thin piece of steel, so that it’s bombing mask extends below the steel and there is terrain below that steel, the corresponding terrain (not the steel) will get erased. It’s weird because the steel is intact. Personally, Idk if I like this or not, or if it seems like a good mechanic or bad. I don’t really care either way right now. I have only encountered (to notice it) it in one level so far. In all the Lemmini levels I played and I have not seen it utilized at all for any purpose. Maybe others don’t find this weird at all.
Preventing this would require additional checks to determine whether there is any steel between the middle of a lemming and a given pixel. While it is probably doable, I think it's a bit too much trouble to implement.

-some of the terrain [most notably] the rocks in marble set have such a dark shading that it’s difficult to tell where the terrain is. That is; it’s black like the black parts in the crystal set. It’s not like this in DOS.
Yeah, that's how the Windows high-resolution graphics are. I'm unaware of any levels where this is really a problem, though. If more people are annoyed by this, I can probably lighten those pieces.

Also the "mountain" like piece from marble [in Lemmini only] has what appears like a small "hole" on the left side, so that things behind it show through. It looks odd.
There are a few other pieces in that set that are like that. Those holes were almost certainly added by the Lemmini developer since they don't exist in the Windows graphics. They have been fixed.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2013, 04:32:52 AM »
-[in Lemmini] if a bomber is standing on a thin piece of steel, so that it’s bombing mask extends below the steel and there is terrain below that steel, the corresponding terrain (not the steel) will get erased. It’s weird because the steel is intact. Personally, Idk if I like this or not, or if it seems like a good mechanic or bad. I don’t really care either way right now. I have only encountered (to notice it) it in one level so far. In all the Lemmini levels I played and I have not seen it utilized at all for any purpose. Maybe others don’t find this weird at all.

I don't pretend to know all the intricacies of the physics of explosions, but it is worth pointing out that the primary power of an explosion comes from its shockwave rather than the actual fireball of superheated air, and it is possible for waves to traverse through solid matter (though they can also get partly reflected and attenuated, amongst various possible interactions with the medium).  So while I'm not sure there exists real-world materials that can faithfully replicate the results you describe, it at least seems theoretically possible to me I think, for an explosion to leave the thin steel intact but have the shockwave traverse past the thin steel and affect the terrain material beyond.

In any case, it is basically how terrain removal works against steel in games like Lemmings 2.  I even created a custom level for DOS Lemmings 2 where at one point, your explosion must take out terrain on both sides of a 8-pixel-thick piece of steel.

Offline Proxima

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2013, 10:38:45 AM »
That's also how it works in Lix, though it's hard to notice as the explosion mask will only just go through the thinnest steel piece currently available. It's a natural consequence of the rule that terrain removal is dependent solely on whether terrain is steel or not (and not whether the lemming is standing on steel as in original Lemmings). And it's desirable because of its simplicity. If steel were to block an explosion, what would happen when two thin pieces of steel cut into an explosion mask at different heights, and some regular terrain can be "seen" diagonally through the gap? Best not to open that whole can of worms.

As for slow motion, it comes in very useful in Lix, but it does change the nature of the game -- as was Simon's intention.

Offline Simon

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2013, 01:21:05 PM »
The game should offer any tools it can for singleplayer. You rarely need slow-motion, but in the few cases it's useful, it shouldn't be a cheat. Pixel precision usually makes a level bad. Most level authors leave in pixel precision only when there was absolutely no design alternative, and subsequently encourage the use of slow-motion for that level.

If it weren't such a complex-to-make and rarely-needed feature, Lix would even allow inserting/moving skills at precise time intervals. Right now, humans can edit the replay text file, but nobody has done that yet. :-)

-- Simon

Offline Proxima

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2013, 03:37:25 PM »
I can't entirely agree. Back when I first played Lemmings, the absence of fine-control features was an essential part of the difficulty and fun of the game. Adding them, as I said, changes the game -- into one that I like now, but don't think I'd have liked nearly as much back then. It's good to have those features in Lix, partly because the community are making much harder levels, partly because I don't have nearly so much time for playing as I used to -- and finally, because I've changed from a casual player to a challenge player, and trying to squeeze the last drop out of many levels would just be too frustrating without control aids.

I've used editing the replay text file twice, as it happens -- to save the maximum possible on Clam's "Mental Block" and Rubix's "Scaling the heights". The former requires assigning many pixel-precise blockers, which would be really tedious by any other method. The latter requires assigning 95 climbers faster than is physically possible in the game, so text-editing is the only way the maximum can be achieved.

Offline Tsyu

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2014, 09:38:43 PM »
Just to let you guys know, I haven't forgotten about this project. In fact, I think it's nearly ready for a release, so it should be out sometime this month.

Since this is kind of a major fork, should the game still be simply called "Lemmini," or should a subtitle be added?

Offline grams88

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2014, 11:01:12 PM »
Hi Tsyu

As always it sounds like you are doing a good job.

I would probably add a subtitle so it gives us an indication of how far the program has come as it sounds like there has been a major fork as you put it. Also it makes it easier to identity instead of just putting in a different version.

I guess that's only my opinion, what does everyone else think? 

I look forward to giving it a go in the future.  :thumbsup:

Offline mobius

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2014, 11:06:45 PM »
Lemmini 2.0 or something to that nature would probably be a good idea.  :)

btw, good job!  :thumbsup:

I also, will test it out.
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Offline Tsyu

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2014, 11:11:19 PM »
"Lemmini 2.0" doesn't sound like a good name since "2.0" can easily be confused for the version number (the version numbers for my release will start at 0.90 if there's no objection).

I've been thinking of calling it "Lemmini: Revived," referring to the development being "revived." However, I know that the Lemmini community hasn't died yet, so maybe this title isn't a good one.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2014, 11:59:30 PM »
Lemmini++ maybe?

Offline NaOH

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2014, 01:58:11 AM »
But that will get abbreviated as "L++," which could cause confusion.

Offline geoo

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2014, 01:58:53 AM »
Lemminae?

Offline namida

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2014, 08:19:37 AM »
SuperLemmini?
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Prob Lem

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2014, 12:06:40 PM »
"Lemmini: LF Edition"? :P


Offline grams88

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2014, 10:19:14 PM »
What about (Lemmini Revisited)

Offline Mindless

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2014, 04:07:14 AM »
Oh No! More Lemmini

Offline Prob Lem

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2014, 02:03:00 PM »
I vote for Mindless' suggestion! Hahaha... :thumbsup:

Offline Tsyu

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2014, 10:41:12 PM »
Lemmini++ maybe?
That might work, although NaOH does have a good point against it:
But that will get abbreviated as "L++," which could cause confusion.


Lemminae?
Is that the plural form of lemmini? In any case, I think "Lemmini" should still be part of the title since this isn't a completely new clone.


SuperLemmini?
Sounds good to me. I'll consider it.


"Lemmini: LF Edition"? :P
What is "LF" supposed to stand for? If it stands for "Lemmings Forums," then I don't think it's a good name; I'd rather not name it after a forum site.


Lemmega hehe
See my point above regarding "Lemminae."


What about (Lemmini Revisited)
"Revisited" doesn't sound good to me since we're not really "revisiting" anything.


Oh No! More Lemmini
This may work, as long as people don't abbreviate it "ONML" (which they likely will).

Offline Proxima

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2014, 10:57:34 PM »
Lemminae?
Is that the plural form of lemmini? In any case, I think "Lemmini" should still be part of the title since this isn't a completely new clone.

No. Lemmini is already plural in form (although the singular doesn't actually exist, since lemmings presumably weren't known to the Romans). Lemminae is the feminine plural.

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2014, 04:06:48 AM »
Lemmus -- though it'd probably better be "true" to the originals to call it that though.

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2014, 09:41:38 AM »
Am I late to the suggestion party? How about: LemminII (pronounced 'lemon two', not at all implying that the game is a lemon of course!)

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2014, 10:02:55 AM »
Some interesting suggestions:

+ Sega Master System unpublished levels
+ Lemmings 2 - The Tribes' Classic Levels
+ Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Levels
+ Santa Claus costume for Xmas/Holiday levels

Offline namida

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2014, 11:01:46 AM »
I'm pretty sure the only levels that are truly unique to the Sega Master System version are the five SEGA levels and their repeats, and Mayhem 17 (which is a repeat of Tricky 12, but fairly different from Mayhem 21 in the PC version)... the rest are just copied from the budget Amiga version, and already exist in LVL format (and thus can be easily converted to Lemmini). There are some other cases where names/positions are changed though (for example, Taxing 21 was moved to Mayhem 21, and given the name that the original Mayhem 21 has on PC).
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Offline Prob Lem

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2014, 01:17:11 AM »
"Lemmini: LF Edition"? :P
What is "LF" supposed to stand for? If it stands for "Lemmings Forums," then I don't think it's a good name; I'd rather not name it after a forum site.
Yeah, the "LF" was supposed to stand for Lemmings Forums, as a result of it having been posted about here. :P Fair enough, though. :thumbsup:

Offline Tsyu

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2014, 02:39:31 AM »
Lemmus -- though it'd probably better be "true" to the originals to call it that though.
Yeah, this version of Lemmini isn't going to be 100% true to the originals since it will keep the doubled resolution and frame rate.

Am I late to the suggestion party? How about: LemminII (pronounced 'lemon two', not at all implying that the game is a lemon of course!)
I'm not sure that I like changing a letter to part of a Roman numeral.

I'll probably use "SuperLemmini" as the title unless someone suggests something that I like better.


Some interesting suggestions:

+ Sega Master System unpublished levels
What do you mean by "unpublished"?

+ Lemmings 2 - The Tribes' Classic Levels
I might make that a separate pack once I can rip them myself.

+ Sega Mega Drive/Genesis Levels
I'm going to release these as a separate pack alongside my version of Lemmini.

+ Santa Claus costume for Xmas/Holiday levels
I plan on making these sometime soon, although they won't be in the initial release.

Offline namida

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2014, 03:45:29 AM »
For the Holiday Lemmings suggestion, why not just have an option of including lemming sprites as part of a style? Then, if no custom ones are found, it reverts to the default ones.

I should be able to throw together something to rip the holiday lemming sprites from H93/H94.



Also, I believe the L2 levels, even classic, are tile-based, unlike L1 which is based on elements at various positions. Therefore, a direct rip would be of no use, unless you expand the formats Lemmini supports; you'd be better off just remaking the levels.
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Offline mobius

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2014, 09:35:29 PM »
here is my modifed styles folder for Lemmini, it has some [work-in-progress] new and fixed graphics + the Christmas graphics. I don't know if it will work for your new Lemmini since I don't know exactly what you changed but if you're interested let me know, and I'll post here again when I do anything more.

This works easily with Lemmix too btw, you just copy this folder into the appropriate one for Lemmix. I might be missing a step but it's nothing too complicated/hard to figure out by yourself (I did).

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72760678/mobius-modified-styles.zip
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline Tsyu

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2014, 11:37:16 PM »
For the Holiday Lemmings suggestion, why not just have an option of including lemming sprites as part of a style? Then, if no custom ones are found, it reverts to the default ones.
My plan is to include them as a mod, which any level pack can activate without the player having to move files around. (The Genesis pack will also use the mod feature.)

Also, I believe the L2 levels, even classic, are tile-based, unlike L1 which is based on elements at various positions. Therefore, a direct rip would be of no use, unless you expand the formats Lemmini supports; you'd be better off just remaking the levels.
I looked at the Lemmings 2 level format, and it does look like I'm better off recreating the levels. At least I'll be able to make them in their original widths.

here is my modifed styles folder for Lemmini, it has some [work-in-progress] new and fixed graphics + the Christmas graphics. I don't know if it will work for your new Lemmini since I don't know exactly what you changed but if you're interested let me know, and I'll post here again when I do anything more.
I'm not going to add anything to the styles, and I'm going to be a bit conservative in how the graphics are modified. I might include some of your modified graphics in future versions of Lemmini, but not your additions. (Of course, anyone can use them in their own levels.)

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2014, 07:12:56 PM »
Some interesting suggestions:

+ Sega Master System unpublished levels
What do you mean by "unpublished"?

The Sega Master System version of Lemmings has 14 unique and exclusive levels, which replace the same amount of the Amiga original levels. Apart from the 10 "Sega #" levels, it has these other 4:






I don't know if they where published under other systems before, but someone ripped &/or adapted them some years ago for Lemmini. I have attached those levels in this post.

Offline namida

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2014, 08:52:51 PM »
Those are the levels I'm referring to from the Budget Amiga version. =)
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Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2014, 09:15:15 AM »
Those are the levels I'm referring to from the Budget Amiga version. =)

Sorry, I thought you were talking about other levels. Thanks for the information!  :thumbsup:

Offline namida

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2014, 10:35:17 AM »
However, as I mentioned, that version also has a unique Mayhem 17, it has the same layout as PC version's Mayhem 21, but a different skillset and solution. (SMS's Mayhem 21 is the same as PC's Taxing 21, and SMS's Taxing 21 is one of the SEGA levels).
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Offline Tsyu

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2014, 01:22:51 AM »
What do you mean by "unpublished"?

The Sega Master System version of Lemmings has 14 unique and exclusive levels, which replace the same amount of the Amiga original levels. Apart from the 10 "Sega #" levels, it has these other 4:

That's what I thought you meant. You said "unpublished," which usually means "unreleased," which certainly does not describe the Master System levels.

The four levels in your post will be included with my version of Lemmini, although they will be the Amiga versions, which differ in stats. (Actually, a number of other Master System levels have stats that differ from the original versions, and not all of those differences are explainable by the 20-lemming limit. I don't have a list of such levels, though.)



If no one objects to the "SuperLemmini" title, I'll go ahead and use that. I should have a version out in a few days.

Offline namida

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2014, 04:52:31 AM »
Hm... a bit off topic, but Lemmini supports pixel-perfect positioning/sizing for steel and objects, right?
I'm just wondering if perhaps the easiest way to handle NeoLemmix's advanced features without writing a completely new editor, is to simply write a convertor to convert Lemmini levels to Extended LVL format... (Hm... but doesn't Lemmini have a higher resolution too?)
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Offline mobius

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #60 on: May 22, 2014, 03:20:22 PM »
this was talked about before in this thread but I'm asking now only cause I'm curious: in this release will miners turn around on steel?

Hm... a bit off topic, but Lemmini supports pixel-perfect positioning/sizing for steel and objects, right?
I'm just wondering if perhaps the easiest way to handle NeoLemmix's advanced features without writing a completely new editor, is to simply write a convertor to convert Lemmini levels to Extended LVL format... (Hm... but doesn't Lemmini have a higher resolution too?)

yes, the graphics are higher resolution.
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Offline Tsyu

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #61 on: May 23, 2014, 03:20:14 AM »
this was talked about before in this thread but I'm asking now only cause I'm curious: in this release will miners turn around on steel?
Yes, as will bashers (but not diggers). The same goes for one-way arrows.

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #62 on: May 23, 2014, 11:55:42 PM »
Lemmings for Sinclair Spectrum also had unique levels. Take a look:

http://dc179.4shared.com/img/pemDJZKWba/s3/14632f061e8/Lemmings_2.png

Offline Tsyu

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2014, 06:06:02 AM »
All right, I think I'm ready to release SuperLemmini! I'll post the thread in a few minutes (hopefully).

Offline jkapp76

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #64 on: February 25, 2015, 03:02:26 AM »
https://app.box.com/s/ah0r7ru1qcdlf9l79sfuf9474afriadv

Here is a link to my Holiday Lemmings Graphics. (to use as a Lemmini MOD)

I took the standard graphics and swapped the Dark\Light Blue tones for the Dark\Light Red tones on every Graphic.

The only additional work I did was change the color of the Builder Bag to grey... this bag was the same two tones of Red I used for the Lemming and therefore clashed quite a bit. [Edit: The bags are now Blue]

I did NOT attempt to create the Santa Hat, or the second player Lemming, but I am considering creating a second player icon to match the evil Lemming colors on the PSP version. [The second player graphics are now included]

Let me know what you think.

...Jeremy
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 04:48:12 AM by jkapp76 »
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline namida

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #65 on: February 25, 2015, 07:19:58 PM »
Why gray? IIRC, the builder bags in Holiday Lemmings are blue.
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Offline jkapp76

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2015, 10:42:32 PM »
I did not know they were blue. I saw the second player bags were grey and I just used that to fix the issue.

I have uploaded a revised version with blue bags.

...Jeremy
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Offline jkapp76

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2015, 04:52:06 AM »
Okay, I just uploaded a revised version of my Holiday Lemmings Player graphics.

Link is here: https://app.box.com/s/ah0r7ru1qcdlf9l79sfuf9474afriadv

I completed and included the player 2 graphics, included the corrected blue builder bag, and slightly darkened the dark red tone as it was a bit too light.

The link above is also updated.

...Jeremy
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline jkapp76

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2015, 03:23:31 PM »
One final update...

I now include a Holiday Icon pack as well, seemed like a good final thing to do.

...Jeremy
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Offline Ben H

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #69 on: February 27, 2015, 07:09:18 AM »
Hi,

Maybe don't show backgrounds in the "level overview" box?
Otherwise they look like green blobs.

See example here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ER_KrPdS6o

Offline jkapp76

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #70 on: February 28, 2015, 01:29:42 AM »
https://app.box.com/s/62znlbmxb47s3uhz4p82do7q4yyqmum0 [Standard Lemmings]

https://app.box.com/s/qb0jaeut8k6yfgmof1zx1ylercmj48ax [Holiday Lemmings]


Here is a link to my SNES icons for Lemmini.

I would like to suggest making higher resolution images possible for the Super Lemmini... This would allow for no quality loss.

This is probably the best we can do for now.

...Jeremy
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 10:32:21 PM by jkapp76 »
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline jkapp76

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2015, 03:45:28 AM »
Holiday\Xmas Lemming Graphics...

Here is a link to my work-in-progress Holiday Lemming graphics for Super Lemmini.
https://app.box.com/s/jar7ar3r0luivzd95gvtex1tt8op8yq9

These include the Santa hat and ball animation.
I'd like some feedback so I can continue correctly. I believe the files here are done, but want to hear from someone before investing the time into completing the remaining graphics.

...Jeremy
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 09:41:10 PM by jkapp76 »
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline jkapp76

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Re: I'm modifying Lemmini - any suggestions?
« Reply #72 on: March 14, 2015, 09:20:39 PM »
Okay, to all that are interested, I have completed the Holiday Lemmings graphics. The link above will download the full version now.

I have made a few more mods as well if anyone wants them for custom level packs... I have lemmings in Red, Blue, Green, Purple, Santa suit Red, and Santa suit Purple. I include blue here because I updated the death animations to match the full color of the lemming animations, looks nice. I am currently working on a more human version I call the Jimbob Mod.

Let me know what you think...

...Jkapp

« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 02:40:22 PM by jkapp76 »
...Jeremy Kapp