Level design contest #1!

[geoo]

Welcome to the Lemmings Forum level design contest!

First off, you don't have to design a level in order to participate.

The contest consists of two phases, a level design phase and the level solving phase. Each phase will probably last about 3 weeks.
The post with the level submissions is here: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=726.msg15908#msg15908

In the level design phase, players can design a single 1-of-each-skill level and submit it. At the beginning of the solving phase, all levels will be posted. Players try to solve the levels, and submit their solutions at the end, the aim being to solve as many levels as possible. Furthermore players can vote in two categories for best looking and most fun level.

If you don't design a level (i.e. skip phase 1), you can still submit solutions and/or vote on levels. You can also design a level but not submit solutions/vote.


Level design phase.

Deadline
The deadline for level submissions is Tuesday, Feb 19th, at noon UTC. (May be extended upon popular demand or if it turns out that I'm away that week, which is a possibility.)

Submission
You may submit only one level. There are two ways of submitting a level:
1. You can post them in this thread. Then players can attempt your level already before the deadline. If you update your level, please post a notification and make clear which version of your level is the one to be used in the contest. I will post my level this way.
2. You can send your level via PM to me if you don't want other players to see your level before the deadline. If you don't trust me, you can send me the level in an encrypted archive, and send me the password within one day of the deadline.

Theme
The topic of the contest is: Design a 1-of-each-skill level.

Platform
The game the levels have to be designed for is Lemmix, specifically 'Custom Lemmings' viewer style.
If you have trouble setting up Lemmix, feel free to ask here.

Glitches
Levels must be solvable without glitches. To determine what is a glitch and what isn't, use these lists for reference: non-glitches and glitches. If some behaviour is not listed in the glitches list, you should be safe (unless it's something really obscure; try to use common sense here.) Note however that other players may use glitches to solve your levels, so you should try to protect your level against glitchy solutions.


Level solving phase.

Levels
I will try to post all level within one day of the level submission deadline.

Deadline
The level solving phase will probably last about 3 weeks as well, but may be longer if many levels are submitted. The exact deadline for phase 2 will be announced once the levels are posted.

Submission
I will post my solutions (and votes) one day before the deadline in an encrypted archive, and I will not change them. I will announce the password for the archive once the deadline has passed.
Submit your solutions to me via PM (as attachment). If you want to submit your solutions before I posted my encrypted archive, and if you don't trust me, you can send me the solutions in an encrypted archive, and send me the password within one day of the deadline. Solutions have to be in Lemmix .lrb format.

Scoring
3 categories:

• Most levels solved
• Best looking level
• Most fun level

For 1., you score a point for each level you solve, including your own.
Category 2. and 3. will be decided by voting: each player has 6 votes per category (you can opt not to use all of them), which can be distributed over different levels, and a level can receive up to 3 votes per category. You may not vote for your own level. If you designed a level, but cast less than 4 votes in a category, your own level will receive one negative vote in the respective category.
So e.g. you could give one level 3 votes, another 2 votes, and a third one 1 vote; or you could e.g. give 1 vote each to 5 different levels (and don't use the last vote); or you could opt not to vote and receive -1 vote for your own level. The level with most votes wins the category.
You can cast votes for any level, even if you haven't solved them. (I realize that it might be hard to judge how fun a level is if you haven't solved it, but it's all just for fun.)

Voting
Submit your votes in a PM (it can be the same PM as the one with the solutions). You can put them in a text file and encrypt them as well if you want.


That's it. Have fun!

I encourage everyone to post levels here, and discuss things (don't give away solutions though), to make this contest more lively.

[Simon]

A great rules writeup. I'd be even sharper on punishing too few votes (if someone gives less than 6 in one of the categories), and plainly score -1 vote for the own level per uncast vote per category.

A rules clarification (probably unnecessary): Players cast up to 6 votes per category, i.e., 12 votes altogether. The 3-vote limit is per player, per category, and per level.

Now let's see what rolls in!

-- Simon

[geoo]

I clarified 6 votes per category in the rules now.

The reason I allowed 4 or 5 votes without punishment is more flexibility: sometimes, you have a distribution of votes that feels right while adding another vote to any level it feels wrong (e.g. one level gets 3 votes, 2 others get 1 vote, but you don't feel any of the 1-vote levels is better than the other, and the remaining levels are not quite as good as the ones that recieved 1 vote). Just deducting one vote for not voting is because you can get a similar effect by casting 1 vote each to 6 different levels. And if someone prefers not to vote at all, I don't want to punish them with -6.
I hope people restrain from tactical voting anyway and just have fun and cast as many votes as possible.

[chaos_defrost]

Alright, got the route for my level set up. Now we just have to backroute-proof it and make the level not look terrible.

I don't know which is going to be harder honestly 

[Pooty]

Yeah, I'm on the same stage. I'm pretty sure I've killed all obvious backroutes, and I'm in the process of eliminating glitchy ones.

[geoo]

Good to know there are some people who don't just start a few days before the deadline. I've been busy until now, I only have a rough idea, but I hope to get started soon.

Akseli just pointed out to me, it seems right now that it's impossible to attach files to private messages. So if you want to send them directly to me and not post them here, you can either upload the file somewhere and put a link in the PM, or send it to me via e-mail. My address is: geoo89 ad g mail dod com (you should be able to decipher this, if not, send me a PM )

...two weeks to go!

[Simon]

Elasticity of the deadline is to be detemined this year via experiment by renowned and bearded russian scientist team,

-- Simon

[Crane]

Well, after a long hiatus from Lemmings, I managed to design a level and will submit it.  I'm just polishing it up, making it more aesthetically pleasing and checking for backroutes.  Unfortunately the level may have a mean-spirited air about it and its intended solution.  No glitch exploits though, I hope.

[geoo]

Just a friendly reminder that you only have 5 more days to complete designing your level.

I'm in the backroute testing phase right now, and there's a lot of backroutes to weed out... " title="Angry" class="smiley" />
I picked the rock tiles set, so there's a lot of decorating to be done.

[chaos_defrost]

Yea, think I got most of the non-glitchy backroutes out, not sure about glitchy ones but honestly if you can only find glitchroutes then I've hidden the intended route well enough. 

I also decided to be avant-garde and designed in Rockbutnah obviously picked Brick

[Crane]

Ironed out all of the backroutes that I could find... I just hope by failsafes aren't too tacky!  Still, sending now.

I was very traditional and chose the Marble tileset.

[geoo]

You guys got three more days to get your level finished!

Meanwhile, I've finished designing my level, and you can start backroute hunting (or finding the intended solution) now. 

[Crane]

Is it time for phase two?

I'm still trying to work out your "retirement" level, geoo!

[geoo]

Not yet, people can still submit levels until Tuesday noon UTC (so about 1.5 days left).
Then I'll try to compile the levels as quickly as possible, and post them, and that's when phase 2 starts.

ccexplore just made me aware that my level has a backroute. I took another look at the level, and noticed a big oversight on my part (I suppose that's what ccexplore found too). Wish I could update it (mostly so I know people try their hardest to find the intended route, to see how hard the level really is), but I'm not sure whether that's fair, as I got a pointer that there's a backroute. I suppose anyone posting their level publicly has the chance of getting a hint like that, but still...

[Crane]

It's extremely difficult to post a level that is free from backroutes, especially with how creative some players are.  Gotta see if I can find it now.  I should have probably posted my own level publicly - next time I will, especially as I'm getting up to speed with everything again.

[ccexplore]

Whoops, sorry for screwing things up with the contest.

I personally don't think it's too unfair, but I guess it's true that not changing the level would be the least controversial.

Maybe one other thing you can try is to release the updated level as well as keep the original, and allow each contestant to choose either one of the two for round 2.  The idea is that the people who don't think it's unfair will hopefully choose the updated version, while those who do will choose the original, and then the overall results would capture that aspect as well.

[chaos_defrost]

And procrastination pays off as I find a backroute right before I plan to send.

Except I can't figure out any way to remove it creatively. Hmmmmm. 

[geoo]

Maybe one other thing you can try is to release the updated level as well as keep the original, and allow each contestant to choose either one of the two for round 2.  The idea is that the people who don't think it's unfair will hopefully choose the updated version, while those who do will choose the original, and then the overall results would capture that aspect as well.

Really good idea, I was compelled to do it like this, but it might be that people who genuinely think that letting me update is unfair might think their viewpoint is unpopular and then go for version 2 instead.
So I'll go with the uncontroversial solution of leaving the version I uploaded as official version.

Considering the only thing up for grabs in this contest are bragging rights, I think there'll just be implicit extra bragging rights if you can solve my (or anyone else's levels, for that matter) without glitches.

[Akseli]

I submitted my level finally! This is so exciting, this is my first Lemmings level ever which will be played by someone else than me. This also taught me to use Lemmix editor to some extent. Steel placement was tricky and my level error list points out that objects aren't multiplies of 8, but that isn't too bad I guess?

Haha it really feels weird that my level competes here against levels by people who have possibly done this for years and years. I'll appreciate any feedback from you, you are far more experienced than I am! I'm not sure if I would have ever made even one single level without a contest like this. And I'm really excited to see what kinds of solutions other people will find for my creation. I think I'm starting to understand the allure of making own levels more than ever.

Level solving phase starts tomorrow! This is great.

[chaos_defrost]

Ugh, I don't like how this turned out, I had to make a couple kinda ugly changes to the level to fix obvious backroutes and I'm not sure I even want to send it in its current state, it's pretty terrible. Plus I mean I don't even know if there's other backroutes but it's too late to go back and look any more because I'm going to be busy today.

 " title="Angry" class="smiley" />

[geoo]

Oh well, I hope you'll manage to come up with something reasonable still.

Either way,  only 6 hours left! (Though in practice probably more like 8 hours at least, as I'm not going to get up that early.)

[chaos_defrost]

Ah well, may as well send it. Free point for everyone probably when you discover the obvious thing I missed here. I sort of took the sledgehammer approach to backroutes, which might make the intended route more accessible, and also gives this level that "wow, this is aesthetically really barebones and weird" feel that a lot of my levels have, but I got busy with stuff before the procrastination phrase of level design.

So it goes.

[chaos_defrost]

Yea, the version I just uploaded I already thought of a really, really easy way to do this that I didn't fix entirely. Gah, I'll just figure out a way to fix that later and throw it in ISteve11 once I actually get all the backroutes out.

But yea my level has a really piss easy way to do it after all 

[Clam]

Here's my entry (attached). I may have borrowed the theme from geoo - there aren't points for originality, are there?

[ccexplore]

I've solved Clam's and Steve's levels so far.  Any objections to emailing the plain LRBs to geoo now, or do some people feel the need for me to do the password archive thing for the solutions?

I'm reasonably sure I got the intended solution for Clam's, and maybe even Steve's--at least it doesn't feel backroutey.

[Simon]

I'm still wriggling around with the Lemmix editor and didn't get mine done before the deadline. I'm now finishing the level in the Lix editor, the only editor I got the hang of. Since that cannot export levels as L1 files, the level becomes ineligible for the contest.

I will post an image later for anyone who cannot run Lix or doesn't have the non-free Lemmings terrain installed.

-- Simon

[Pooty]

My level is now up. Enjoy.

[geoo]

Levels have been submitted, and now the level solving phase commences!
The attached level pack contains the submitted levels. Here's a list of levels:

author	name	final version	later versions
Gronkling	The Isle of Skye	8 here	-
Crane	Prize Catch	7 here	-
geoo	Stroke at Retirement Age	2 here	-
Akseli	Feel the Pressure	2 here	-
Steve	The "Hole in the Head" Gang	5 here	-
Clam	Evacuating a Retirement Home	5 here	-
Pooty	A sea of purest green	3 here	-
möbius	Tres Hombres	3 here	-
Proxima	Brute Fours	2 here	-

Late submissions: möbius, Proxima

The attached contest.dat contains the first version of each level, the only one relevant for the official scoring.
The attached contest_final.dat contains all 'final' versions, the one relevant for the unofficial scoring on who can solve the most final versions.
The 'later versions' column lists versions of a level that have been posted after the final version. They are only relevant for the unofficial backrouting scorings. With regards to that, the attached levs_allversions.zip contains all versions from the first up to the final versions of all levels, but not the later versions, for backrouting purposes.
Thanks everyone for submitting levels!

I was hoping to see some levels especially by möbius and Shvegait too (and of course, everyone else who hasn't submitted ), as they have been making really neat levels recently and many years ago respectively. And Simon, you lazy bum, taking a nap instead of finishing your level. Either way, here's a chance to still get your levels in:

Late level submissions
I will accept late level submissions until Tuesday, Feb 26th, at noon UTC. However, as a penalty late submissions will lose one point in the 'Best looking level' and the 'Most fun level' scoring category. To make a late submission, just post your level in this topic. The level will then be included in the pack! So for the next week, you'll have to look out for updates!


Solution and submissions
The deadline for solution submissions is Tuesday, Mar 12th, at noon UTC.

Don't forget to select 'Custom Lemmings' viewer style (right-click -> Change viewer style) when playing a level.
To save a replay after you solved the level in the Lemmix playtester, press 'u' and a replay file will appear in the Replay folder. To view a replay, select the level and go into the play tester, then press Shift+R.

I will post my solutions (and votes) one day before the deadline in an encrypted archive, and I will not change them. I will announce the password for the archive once the deadline has passed.
Submit your solutions to me via PM or e-mail (geoo89 ad g mail dod com [you should be able to decipher this, if not, send me a PM ]). If you want to submit your solutions before I posted my encrypted archive, and if you don't trust me, you can send me the solutions in an encrypted archive, and send me the password within one day of the deadline. Solutions have to be in Lemmix .lrb format, using the 'Custom Lemmings' viewer style.

Scoring
3 official categories:

• Most levels solved
• Best looking level
• Most fun level

For 1., you score a point for each level you solve, including your own.
Category 2. and 3. will be decided by voting: each player has 6 votes per category (you can opt not to use all of them), which can be distributed over different levels, and a level can receive up to 3 votes per category. You may not vote for your own level. If you designed a level, but cast less than 4 votes in a category, your own level will receive one negative vote in the respective category.
So e.g. you could give one level 3 votes, another 2 votes, and a third one 1 vote; or you could e.g. give 1 vote each to 5 different levels (and don't use the last vote); or you could opt not to vote and receive -1 vote for your own level. The level with most votes wins the category.
You can cast votes for any level, even if you haven't solved them. (I realize that it might be hard to judge how fun a level is if you haven't solved it, but it's all just for fun.)

Submit your votes in a PM or e-mail (it can be the same PM/e-mail as the one with the solutions). You can put them in a text file and encrypt them as well if you want.

Note: all votes and solutions will be posted at the end of the contest!


Backroute fixing jam!
As we all know, backroutes are a common thing, and it might just be that not just my and Steve's levels have backroutes. So I introduce: the backroute fixing jam. (How else could ccexplore be entertained for three weeks, if he solves all the levels in less than a day.) Hopefully this will make things a bit more lively.
This goes as follows:
Whenever you solve a level, you're highly encouraged to send your solution to the level author. To upload a replay, you can use a filehoster like http://www.speedyshare.com/ which you don't have to register for, and then include the link in a PM.
Level authors can update their levels and post them in this topic (and should also post who found backroutes), but have to make sure that the level file name includes the version number somewhere (which should be strictly increasing in steps of 1). I will post a link to the latest version in the level table above, and people can again try to solve the new version. Notice that the updates have no implication for the official scoring described above, there are no official bragging rights to be won here (as the categories below are a bit messy to score anyway and can be influenced easily), but implicit bragging rights for the following categories:

• The dubious honour of the backroute proneness king, aka. Brickout Memorial Trophy (name courtesy of Steve): Goes to the author whose level has the highest number of backroute fixes (+1 if the latest version still has known backroutes).
• Backroute finding king: to whoever finds the most backroutes. EDIT: You can include all the backroutes to each level in the batch of solutions you send me at the end, to decrease the chances that backroutes get lost in the mess.
• Final version solver: to whoever solves the most 'final' versions, where final means the latest version that has been posted before Tuesday, Mar 5th, at noon UTC. For that purpose, send me your replays to the final versions as well, but make it clear which solution is to the first and which to the final version.

Changelog:
2013-03-05: Final versions uploaded and an archive with all versions so far.
2013-02-26: Proxima's level added
2013-02-24: penalty for late submissions changed
2013-02-22: möbius' level added
2013-02-21: Note about unofficial backroute finding category added (submit solutions for all versions of a level for that purpose.)

[geoo]

Let the backroute fixing commence!
Here's version 2 of my level. (Again, you don't have to solve this for the official scoring categories, and your votes should reflect the first version of each level. But if you want to join the backroute fixing jam, go ahead and give it a try!)

[Pooty]

Akseli has backrouted my level. I will upload v2 later in the week.

Edit: Proxima has also backrouted my level in the same way.

[ccexplore]

speedyshared my replays for Clam's and Steve's levels and PM'd the links to them and geoo.

[Akseli]

I solved all the contest levels and sent my solutions to the authors. I'm not going to tell any spoilers, but there was only one level, which I think I solved in the intended way, and my other solutions felt backroutey. I backrouted to some extent my own level also. It has to be terribly difficult to make a level without any major backroutes in one shot. There almost always should be someone to test someone's levels due to "creator's blind eye", but I think that wouldn't be fair in this kind of contest. Anyway, those levels were really fun! And this backroute fixing jam is an awesome idea!

It may also be a little hard to evaluate the enjoyability of these levels because of backroutes, but maybe I'll wait for the updated levels and let my votes be based on those. Here are nice-looking levels also, I'll send my votes maybe nearer the end of this phase.

This is fun, thanks to all the participants! Too bad that there aren't more levels, but I enjoy this still.

[chaos_defrost]

Yea, got 4 solutions to my level, all the same, and all with the "obvious easy route" that I was complaining about 5 minutes after posting the level

one moment please

EDIT: Routes were from geoo, Proxima, Akseli, and ccexplore so far.

[ccexplore]

Oh well.  I still think it's a fun level despite the apparent backroute solution, which while not exactly very difficult, is still decent I think.  Looking forward to the next version of your level.

[Crane]

I'm about ready to throw in the towel.  Two different backroutes already, courtesy of Akseli and Proxima.

[chaos_defrost]

I was debating between trying to find a subtle way to fix the backroute in my level or go with a very strong fix that does make the intended solution easier to work out.

In the end I decided to take the nuclear option to avoid winning the Brickout Memorial Trophy 

[geoo]

Hahaha, Brickout Memorial Trophy, I love this name, I think I'm gonna adapt that! 

Nice work on solving all of the levels (first version), Akseli! Despite the backroutes, they are still kinda challenging, but I only have two more to go. EDIT: now only one left. EDIT: Now also Clam's solved.
I'm afraid the official scoreboard for the solving category will look pretty boring at the end; good thing there'll be the scoreboard for the final versions of the levels.
And hey Proxima, nice to see you joining in!

Note to Pooty: Just in case you haven't noticed, many of your OWW trigger areas don't work; you can turn on the trigger area viewer in Lemmix to see them. Only trigger areas for the first 16 objects will work. You could move the hatch further to the back in the object list, as well as some of the water at the bottom (one bit of water actually prevented another backroute of mine).

EDIT: Solved version 2 of Steve's level.

[Crane]

Well, now that I'm getting up to speed again, I've solved "Evacuating a Retirement Home" - solution posted to Clam and geoo.  I will definitely give this +1 for beauty due to the clever design of the bedrooms.

Unfortunately chaps, I've hopefully addressed the common denominator in all four posted backroutes of "Prize Catch" - it was a pretty bad oversight of mine - find version 2 attached.

[Crane]

Okay, that was backrouted instantly using a variant of an existing one.  Version 3. *sighs*  Yeah I'm frustrated.

[geoo]

I'm afraid to say, the exact replay I sent you for version 2 also works for version 3. That guy was a floater.
Time for version 4 I guess.

btw, just a short note: you don't have to send your solutions to me immediately, it's fine if you just send me a batch of all your solutions at the end of the solving phase. Just send your solutions immediately to the level author.

[Crane]

Aah, screw it!  I'm sorry, I can't fix it - the level's completely broken.  I've failed.

[Luis]

This is why I didn't participate in this. 1. It takes me forever to come up with a hard level. 2. There's bound to be backroutes and fixing them is annoying. (Which is already happening, which is funny )

[geoo]

Aah, screw it!  I'm sorry, I can't fix it - the level's completely broken.  I've failed.

Couldn't you just fix the backroute by making that pillar a little thicker, or would that break your intended solution?
Just give it a little more time or sleep over it, I think your last update was just a bit rushed. Backroute-fixing can be annoying and tricky sometimes, but it's part of the fun I think.
The entire setup of your level is really curious, I'd really like to work out what solution you intended for.

[Crane]

Yeah, I can make the wall slightly thicker - it doesn't seem to affect the intended solution.  I guess I was flustered, but I'm nowhere near as good as I thought I was.  Still, here's v4...

(Unfortunately I don't enjoy fixing backroutes, at all... because it shows imperfection that I was unable to consider the possibility initially, and the result ends up looking tacky and unprofessional)

[Clam]

geoo found a backroute to my level. Here's v2 (attached).

Also, @ccx and Akseli: I get the following error when loading your replays, and I can't watch them. Note that it's not the error you get when you play in the wrong mode (that one is "invalid replay header different mechanics"). Any idea what's going on here? I notice you both used speedyshare whereas the other senders didn't, could that be corrupting the file somehow?

[ccexplore]

Also, @ccx and Akseli: I get the following error when loading your replays, and I can't watch them. Note that it's not the error you get when you play in the wrong mode (that one is "invalid replay header different mechanics"). Any idea what's going on here? I notice you both used speedyshare whereas the other senders didn't, could that be corrupting the file somehow?

Did you actually click on the link to go to the webpage?  If you just try to right-click and "Save As" it won't work as it's not a direct download link.  AFAIK you need to visit the link as a webpage and then use the download link from within the site.  I just tried that and the file I got is identical to the original when I checked with a binary compare program, so it should work.

If it still doesn't work for you, I'll try to work out an alternate way to get the replay to you.  Or maybe I'll just describe the solution in words over PM.

[ccexplore]

In the end I decided to take the nuclear option to avoid winning the Brickout Memorial Trophy 

Sorry Steve, I'm afraid your nuke has just blown you one step closer to Brickout Memorial Trophy.   Speeyshare link PM'd.

[ccexplore]

Sorry for triple post, I just have to say that geoo's backroute fix deserves an award for least impact to the level.  It literally looks like nothing's changed.   [Granted, most backroutes are a lot harder to fix than that, I should know...... ]

[Pooty]

Note to Pooty: Just in case you haven't noticed, many of your OWW trigger areas don't work; you can turn on the trigger area viewer in Lemmix to see them. Only trigger areas for the first 16 objects will work. You could move the hatch further to the back in the object list, as well as some of the water at the bottom (one bit of water actually prevented another backroute of mine).

Yeah, I hadn't played DOS Lemmings in a while before I designed my level, and I forgot about the item limit. I had to rearrange the objects to make them work well enough to prevent backrouted solutions, although I had no idea about the hatch still working after the 16th object in the list.

Edit: geoo has also backrouted my level using the same method. Meanwhile, lyygak provided me with two solutions to the level: one of them is an alternative route that I actually liked a lot, and the other is the intended solution.

[chaos_defrost]

yea, ccexplore basically did the exact same thing as the v1 only using the skills not used in v1 to bypass the other stuff in v2.

v3 coming up after work, or something

EDIT: Akseli just sent the same route ccexplore did, so yea I have to go to work so I won't have a new version up for a few hours

[Pooty]

I have solved three levels so far (four if you count my own). I have yet to complete geoo's, Clam Spammer's and Insane Steve's levels.

[chaos_defrost]

I've only gotten Crane's so far, so you're well ahead of me 

Anyways, have a v3. At the risk of agitating the backroute gods further I have also made a change that causes geoo's route to no longer work, so I guess you win a backroute award for the v2 of the level now as well.

I'm actually kind of angry (not hahaha angry but serious angry) about managing to come up with an "infallable" backroute fix that could be solved in EXACTLY the same way as the original level. I mean, what the everloving crap is wrong with you, Steve?

EDIT: Akseli found a solution that's pretty similar to geoo's v2 solution. So, again not really tempted to make any more revisions unless someone finds something glaringly different.

[Crane]

Well, v4 was backrouted by Akseli, admittedly quite ingeniously.  Pooty ALMOST has an 'acceptable variant' of the intended solution, but backrouted on the use of the last skill!  Hopefully v5 here is the last revision I will need to post... but who knows!

[chaos_defrost]

geoo found a backroute to v3 which I can only really describe as "real cute good1 hahahahahahaha  "

So here's v4. I made a few changes to the terrain to make the level a better reflection of my state of mind right now.

[Crane]

There's hope that I can be a better designer yet, having so many élite players around to tear the level apart with tips and tricks!  Still haven't had much luck solving the other levels yet unfortunately, but stand by.

[mobius]

wow, all of these levels look amazing! 

is it a total coincidence that clam and geoo made a level with retirement in the title 

don't feel discouraged Crane, your level looks great! It's generally more difficult to see backroutes in your own level because you have your own solution fore front in your mind.

[chaos_defrost]

wow, all of these levels look amazing! 

I take it you didn't download the latest version of my level then 

Also every time it gets backrouted from here on I'm adding more and more out of place junk terrain in each revision. If it gets to v5 I kind of want to unofficially re-title the level "Nanashi no Level" (one internet to anyone who gets the reference)

[Clam]

@möbius: It's no coincidence at all

Here's my entry (attached). I may have borrowed the theme from geoo - there aren't points for originality, are there?

---

I got those speedyshare replays working now. The filenames looked right (ending with .lrb) so I figured they were direct downloads.

I've received 4 solutions so far, and only geoo has backrouted it. There was one minor variant, but I won't consider it a backroute because it's close enough to the intended method.

---

Also... here's v3 of my level. geoo again.

[geoo]

wow, all of these levels look amazing! 

is it a total coincidence that clam and geoo made a level with retirement in the title 

don't feel discouraged Crane, your level looks great! It's generally more difficult to see backroutes in your own level because you have your own solution fore front in your mind.

Hey möbius, are you going to join the level solving, or even make a late submission for a level?

Yeah, some of us have a long experience with backroutes, and as you can see we still need multiple attempts before our levels are (seemingly) backroute-free. Making a backroute-free level is a lot harder than solving a level, as it means basically finding all possible solutions.

I managed to find the intended routes to Steve's and Clam's levels today. And yeah, both solutions are pretty neat. I'm really looking forward to the backroute-fixes of the other levels. I feel distributing the votes for 'most fun level' will become a hard decision for me.

Akseli: just curious, is your level of the kind "any solution is fine", or do you have a specific solution in mind and we should expect backroute-fixes?

[Clam]

Solved all v1's . As mentioned, the visual designs are great across the board. Judgement on fun-ness will have to wait for later versions though

There's a great variety of levels here, which is great because I actually thought the "1 of each" concept was a bit tired. (Especially since the one-of-each-skill challenge topic ) But having every skill type available lends itself to so many tricks and combinations. This might explain the abundance of backroutes too of course

[Pooty]

I've now decided on how I'm going to fix my backroute problem. Here you go.

Edit: Akseli and geoo have now solved this level in a way that I'm happy with.

Edit 2: That said, in the spirit of the backroute fixing jam, and because I seem to be a horrible person, I'm going to attempt to force the correct solution. lyygak scores a v1 backroute, geoo and Akseli score a v2 backroute.

[Akseli]

This "design as hard level as possible" theme is turning out to be similar than "design a level which is solved by 4 people for example", because of the challenge of creating a backrouteless level, and many good players. So, I think, in both cases many people will solve lots of levels, perhaps, and now I find this scoring system appropriate (as I at first maybe thought that I would have liked to see contest levels with moderate difficulties). Now it seems that due to backroutes many people will get full points although this contest was about creating hard levels, but that shouldn't matter too much. So, I think this type of scoring for the main category was the correct choice, and I find this very fun still!

This is why I didn't participate in this. 1. It takes me forever to come up with a hard level. 2. There's bound to be backroutes and fixing them is annoying. (Which is already happening, which is funny )

That said, I definitely find that there is room for different kind of levels by difficulty also. I guess it would appeal a wider audience, if all levels won't be very hard. And I think the affect to the success of the author who makes an easy level for the contest is very little. I'd encourage everyone to join this kind of contest although one doesn't like to create hard levels. In my opinion, the difficulty really doesn't matter! The more of variety of different levels, authors, difficulties, everything, the better.

I've really been thinking what I want to do with my level! At first I thought that I like to see everyone's solution for my level, and I didn't mind backroutes. Proxima found an awesome solution which I like, geoo's one were against the idea of my level and Pooty backrouted it in the same way I did after I submitted my level. I haven't got Clam's replay to work yet. So, I'd say that geoo and Pooty have backrouted my level so far, but I'm happy to see that there aren't fatal backroutes at all! And I really would appreciate the feedback related to my level from you, because I haven't done levels before. Anyway, I guess I'm still going to upload a second version after a while.

Marble tileset is quite unsurprisingly the most used tileset in this contest with 3 levels. Then there are 2 brick levels, one dirt and one rock level. I give respect for Gronkling and geoo for picking these less used tilesets, which both are known of bumpy terrain. I was expecting that someone would have made a crystal level (probably the favourite tileset of the community) for the contest, but no at this time. I went for brick just because I wanted to make my first ever serious Lemmings level with my clear favourite tileset.

Gronkling hasn't visited in a while, I'm curious of the possible backroute fixes for that level.
Also, I noticed that there are now two topics titled exactly "Level design contest!", hopefully that won't confuse anyone.

[chaos_defrost]

Alright, geoo has the intended solution. Akseli and ccexplore sent variants of the same route which isn't intended. I would call it close enough, but Akseli managed to do it without the climber and floater, and it'll be a cold day in hell before I leave a 6-skill solution in on a 1-of-each skill level I make. 

Not sure when a v5 is coming because this new route overlaps with the intended route a fair bit.

[chaos_defrost]

Kind of a dumb fix but I don't know maybe this works. Seems like the intended route isn't bounded by time in the same manner the backroute is so I think this works but knowing me it'll open up another route

[mobius]

is it too late for a submission? I wouldn't worry about not being fair because there's not enough time to solve it-my levels are rarely that hard.

Competing with these levels is savagely hard. All of those look really well done guys.  Nobody was fooling around 

I'll try solving levels but I doubt I'll be able to solve most of them (particularly geoo's or Clam's ) period, let alone on time...

[Gronkling]

Just away there unexepectedly and my level got completely backrouted (Of course). XuX
I'll try to fix it tomorrow and start solving levels.

[chaos_defrost]

I think it's still alright to enter, möbius. I'll have a look this weekend.

Akseli modified the v4 route to barely work in v5. It requires an extra skill and some fairly impressive juggling (and really isn't far off from the intended route) so I see no reason to make a change. Nicely done. 

[mobius]

as expected I solved nothing except one level on my first try. (well I also solved IS's but most likely the back route)

[unnecessary rage]
playing got me really frustrated and I miss the directional select of Lemmini. and really wish bashers were always able to bash into a damned miner's tunnel!!  " title="Angry" class="smiley" /> " title="Angry" class="smiley" /> ]

--------
Proxima already backrouted my level, I figured this was going to happen because I rushed the design. anyway here is a improved version. that didn't take long...

[geoo]

Möbius: I added your level (first version) to the contest level list, and the level pack that is attached there. I recommend everyone to re-download the level pack.
Your submission counts as late submission though, so you will lose one point in each category.

This is why I didn't participate in this. 1. It takes me forever to come up with a hard level. 2. There's bound to be backroutes and fixing them is annoying. (Which is already happening, which is funny )

Yeah, like Akseli said, you don't have to make a super hard level. Having some variety is nice, and you can still score in the other two categories.

I've really been thinking what I want to do with my level! At first I thought that I like to see everyone's solution for my level, and I didn't mind backroutes. Proxima found an awesome solution which I like, geoo's one were against the idea of my level and Pooty backrouted it in the same way I did after I submitted my level. I haven't got Clam's replay to work yet. So, I'd say that geoo and Pooty have backrouted my level so far, but I'm happy to see that there aren't fatal backroutes at all! And I really would appreciate the feedback related to my level from you, because I haven't done levels before. Anyway, I guess I'm still going to upload a second version after a while.

When I first saw your level, it looked to me like one that has probably a bunch of possible solutions, but when I tried, it wasn't easy to come up with one. I just brute-forced my way through the level with that glitch, and I hadn't looked for alternative solutions yet because I thought you'd fix this. I just had another glance now, and I found a solution that only uses 4 skills (see PM).
It's definitely a nice level to try out different things, while not having any easy solution that stands out. I'm just curious which design process you used when making this level (if it doesn't give anything away about the level); I like building a level around a certain trick, others prefer starting with some terrain without a specific solution in mind, then trying to find solutions themselves and the refine things. I suspect the latter have the tendency to be a bit more backroute-prone, as the designer essentially has to do the work of a solver as well. Is your level made like this? The design looks really clean!
What is the issue you're having with Clam's replay btw?

I don't usually like bumpy terrain (especially if I have to solve a level), but bumpy terrain is nice to hide features of the level in, and I might have succeeded, considering no-one has solved version 2 of my level yet as far as I know. Among the styles with bumpy terrain, rock is definitely my favourite.

And I renamed the other topic now to avoid confusion.

[mobius]

some of my solutions feel possibly backroutish, but then everybody’s levels these days are like that. Plus I think that’s naturally going to happen with a 1 of each skill things like this. Or any challenge requiring you to follow a pre-set skill allocation. This was difficult for me for sure!

It's definitely a nice level to try out different things, while not having any easy solution that stands out. I'm just curious which design process you used when making this level (if it doesn't give anything away about the level); I like building a level around a certain trick, others prefer starting with some terrain without a specific solution in mind, then trying to find solutions themselves and the refine things. I suspect the latter have the tendency to be a bit more backroute-prone, as the designer essentially has to do the work of a solver as well. Is your level made like this? The design looks really clean!

I don't usually like bumpy terrain (especially if I have to solve a level), but bumpy terrain is nice to hide features of the level in, and I might have succeeded, considering no-one has solved version 2 of my level yet as far as I know. Among the styles with bumpy terrain, rock is definitely my favourite.

or you can do like I do and pull out a flimsy level without any real good solution in mind 

your level is tough Akseli, that's for sure. I keep coming close but no cigar...  as to geoo's level I don't even have a clue 
what's with the title anyway? just random or is it a joke I don't get?
Clam's level is pretty ingenious on that line too 
and Steve's level now looks like a work of Picasso (not a bad thing)
---------
are people getting points for every version of a level they solve? So the more versions the more points they'll get? (so it might be in my interest to not make revisions?  )

[Crane]

Well, after a delay, I've decided to post v6 of Prize Catch.  A couple more backroutes found, courtesy of Akseli and möbius.  Pooty is still the closest to completing it the intended way.

Sometimes I wonder if it's worth leaving in some backroutes to reward players for finding them, especially if they're particularly intricate.

[Proxima]

are people getting points for every version of a level they solve? So the more versions the more points they'll get? (so it might be in my interest to not make revisions?  )

If geoo doesn't mind me stepping in to clarify -- the official category only scores the first version of each level. The "backroute jam" is an unofficial extra. But even for this, I doubt it's in your interest to leave a known backroute unfixed. So far, unless you've received solutions that you haven't announced, only I have scored by backrouting your level. If you leave it unfixed, every other player who finds the same backroute gets a point.

And, even though the backroute jam is unofficial, I hope everyone will play fair and announce all backroutes they receive. I'm pretty sure my solution to your version 2 is also a backroute, considering it uses fewer skills than my first solution....

geoo, I'd like to have some clarification on the rule that late entries lose one point in each category. Presumably this only applies to the categories in which the level itself scores points, and not to the author's points for number of levels solved? It seems unfair that I'd get fewer points if I submit a late entry than if I submit no entry at all.

(I am indeed hoping to submit a late entry... it's just very difficult to find time at the moment.)

[Gronkling]

Backroute found by Akseli, geoo, Pooty and Clam Spammer (Each had a different backroute  )

hopefully this fixes it (them). I'm not very good at self backroute checking.

[lyygak]

geoo, I didn't get your level to work in Lemmix. It complains something about FindGraphicSet 6 not found.
Tried style Original & ONML. (sorry if I asked a stupid question.)

By the way people, what of the levels of this contest you consider hardest?

[mobius]

in that case, geoo, Akseli and Proxima have all found solutions to both versions of my level respectively.

geoo, I didn't get your level to work in Lemmix. It complains something about FindGraphicSet 6 not found.
Tried style Original & ONML. (sorry if I asked a stupid question.)

By the way people, what of the levels of this contest you consider hardest?

you need the "CustLem" style. If that still doesn't work check your game data folder. maybe something got misplaced.

what levels do I consider hardest?  .. ALL of them!!  I just spent a headache of a time trying to solve ISteve's to absolutely no avail... depressing 
But I think I'd rate geoo's as currently hardest as I don't even know where to begin. I made a few attempts that are clearly way off. Now I just don't know, I got nothing.

is my level very hard btw? Like I mentioned I made it quickly because geoo encouraged me to join but I had no real good ideas lately. I'm surprised, honestly that I managed to come up with that. Plus, while ISteve seems to be very good at making 1 of each skill levels I'm likewise terrible at it. (only attempted one other time and that failed because I needed to remove 1 skill)

[geoo]

are people getting points for every version of a level they solve? So the more versions the more points they'll get? (so it might be in my interest to not make revisions?  )

As Proxima said, no. It is in your interest to fix all backroutes as soon as possible, as in the unofficial scoring category there will be another levelpack consisting of the 'final' version of each level (which will be the latest version of your level publicly posted before Tuesday Mar 5th at noon UTC), which everyone has to solve (and gets a point for solving).
For the unofficial backroute finding category, I might miss some backroute reports here, or someone might forget to post a backroute report, so it's best if everyone just sends me their solutions for every version of every level. I will check which solutions are backroutes, trying to make a sensible decision based on the intended routes and statements by the level authors in the topic. You get a backroute-point for each backroute, but at most one per level version (and no points for backrouting your own level).

geoo, I'd like to have some clarification on the rule that late entries lose one point in each category. Presumably this only applies to the categories in which the level itself scores points, and not to the author's points for number of levels solved? It seems unfair that I'd get fewer points if I submit a late entry than if I submit no entry at all.

(I am indeed hoping to submit a late entry... it's just very difficult to find time at the moment.)

That's a good point. I want to give a penalty for late submissions, but I want to encourage people to submit their levels late rather than just playing along, so I'll do away with the penalty for the main category. So you'll only lose one point in the fun and the looks category.

Would be great if you managed to submit a level still.

geoo, I didn't get your level to work in Lemmix. It complains something about FindGraphicSet 6 not found.
Tried style Original & ONML. (sorry if I asked a stupid question.)

By the way people, what of the levels of this contest you consider hardest?

You should use the Custom Lemmings viewer style in Lemmix. CustLemm is basically Original and ONML mashed together, where the ONML styles have been reindexed to use the number 5-8 (and the original levels use 0-4). If you have an issue opening my level, then you should actually have the same issue with Steve's and Akseli's levels. Tell me if you need a copy of CustLemm so you can get the Custom Lemmings viewer style to work in Lemmix.

As for the hardest level, it's really hard to say. Of the levels I know the intended solution of (that's Pooty's, Steve's and Clam's), I'd say Steve's is the hardest, even though Clam's took me longer to solve. And I can't judge how hard my own level is, but as far as I know no-one has found the intended solution yet. But all of them are pretty challenging, even the backrouteable versions (amongst those, I'd say Steve's is the easiest ).

[Gronkling]

geoo backrouted v2, so here's v3. 

[Crane]

I might have backrouted both v2 and v3 of "The Isle of Skye" with the same solution (and v1 with a different solution).  Aah, the joys of finding and fixing backroutes.

In the meantime, here is v7 of "Prize Catch" after geoo modified one of his earlier backroutes to work with this one (I have to say, that one was pretty elegant).  I probably shouldn't give clues, but the intended solution has something to do with the name of the level.

Seems my level has the dubious honour of "Brickout Memorial Trophy".  I may have found some backroutes of my own in The Isle of Skye, Tres Hombres and The "Hole in the Head" Gang, but I'll let geoo organise that.

[Clam]

What is the issue you're having with Clam's replay btw?

Somehow my replay didn't download correctly, despite it being a Dropbox download just like yours. In case this happens to anyone else: if instead of a download you get a page reading "LRBxxxxxxxx" (where the x's are garbage characters), try right click then Save As.

[Gronkling]

Well that last backroute fix was completely useless (Why I shouldn't try at 1am), geoo and Crane backrouted it.

so here's v4, hopefully this one actually does something and this doesn't go the same way as my usual levels, getting to something like v27

[Akseli]

Finally finished the second version of my level! Pooty's solution was the easiest one which I know for that level (the one I also found), and it's now fixed, like geoo's glitch solution, too. Proxima's and Clam's solutions I find very neat, and I accept them willingly. Gronkling was the fifth person to solve my level, his solution was similar backroutish like geoo your third solution, but those shouldn't be anymore possible. So, geoo, Pooty and Gronkling backrouted my level. I also placed the objects now so that level error list says ok!

I've received now 7 replays from people and they're all different and interesting! I'm happy that nobody has found a solution which saves extra lemming(s). One of those replays is the intended solution.

When I first saw your level, it looked to me like one that has probably a bunch of possible solutions, but when I tried, it wasn't easy to come up with one. I just brute-forced my way through the level with that glitch, and I hadn't looked for alternative solutions yet because I thought you'd fix this. I just had another glance now, and I found a solution that only uses 4 skills (see PM).
It's definitely a nice level to try out different things, while not having any easy solution that stands out. I'm just curious which design process you used when making this level (if it doesn't give anything away about the level); I like building a level around a certain trick, others prefer starting with some terrain without a specific solution in mind, then trying to find solutions themselves and the refine things. I suspect the latter have the tendency to be a bit more backroute-prone, as the designer essentially has to do the work of a solver as well. Is your level made like this? The design looks really clean!
What is the issue you're having with Clam's replay btw?

Thanks! I built my level around a certain trick. But I like some alternate solutions which Proxima and Clam have found so far, and I really like that my level has multiple solutions, which are interesting enough and not too easy.
I had the same issue with another of your Dropbox replays, (the other one worked for some reason) but I managed to get them to work by pressing right click and Save As, like Clam said.

bumpy terrain is nice to hide features of the level in, and I might have succeeded, considering no-one has solved version 2 of my level yet as far as I know.

I agree. Terrain in tilesets like dirt, rock and snow can hide features in a different way than straight pieces, which is a clear strength of bumpy terrain tilesets compared to those with mostly straight pieces. Möbius' favourite example would be here tseug's "Oh No! Not Again!".

By the way people, what of the levels of this contest you consider hardest?

It has to be geoo's Stroke at Retirement Age. Even the first version with the backroute was tough to pull of, and the whole level seems to manage in hiding nearly every aspect of the solution.

[geoo]

I've received now 7 replays from people and they're all different and interesting! I'm happy that nobody has found a solution which saves extra lemming(s). One of those replays is the intended solution.

But now that version 2 is out, I've found a solution saving one more than required (based on what you say is your intended route). So you might just ramp up the requirement in the end.

[Gronkling]

Geoo backrouted my level yet again and I just thought of an obvious fix so here's v5 (Getting high now) 

[Clam]

Gronkling found a backroute that exists in all 3 versions of my level so far. (I'm disappointed you didn't find this one geoo )

On to v4.

[lyygak]

I've now decided on how I'm going to fix my backroute problem. Here you go.

Edit: Akseli and geoo have now solved this level in a way that I'm happy with.

Edit 2: That said, in the spirit of the backroute fixing jam, and because I seem to be a horrible person, I'm going to attempt to force the correct solution. lyygak scores a v1 backroute, geoo and Akseli score a v2 backroute.

I don't understand this, I have 2 solutions that both work on v2 (one of them is the intended one you told me).
So shouldn't that be v2 for me and v1 for geoo&Akseli? (Just tried some levels for fun, I'm not really in this contest).

[Pooty]

I don't understand this, I have 2 solutions that both work on v2 (one of them is the intended one you told me).
So shouldn't that be v2 for me and v1 for geoo&Akseli? (Just tried some levels for fun, I'm not really in this contest).

The v number represents which version of the level you found the backroute in. By declaring later that your alternative route is now a backroute, I retroactively awarded you a v1 backroute (since you sent me your solution before v2 was released), and geoo and Akseli a v2. What I probably should have done is award you a v1 and v2, since I hadn't fixed your backroute.

[Gronkling]

geoo found the intended solution but here's another version that fixes something else. (Hopefully this is the final version  )

[Pooty]

Version 3 of my level is now up.

[mobius]

I’ve waited until everyone got a solution in to make changes so I wouldn’t have to make so many updates.
There are two intended solutions. Some have found one, so far nobody’s found the other (apparently harder one). In case anybody’s interested “version 4” prevents the first one (allowing only one (you know 'hopefully' allowing only one).
I personally like the decoration the way it is in version 3 currently.

[chaos_defrost]

I don't understand this, I have 2 solutions that both work on v2 (one of them is the intended one you told me).
So shouldn't that be v2 for me and v1 for geoo&Akseli? (Just tried some levels for fun, I'm not really in this contest).

The v number represents which version of the level you found the backroute in. By declaring later that your alternative route is now a backroute, I retroactively awarded you a v1 backroute (since you sent me your solution before v2 was released), and geoo and Akseli a v2. What I probably should have done is award you a v1 and v2, since I hadn't fixed your backroute.

For what it's worth Akseli found a route in the v3 of my level that I wasn't planning on fixing had geoo not found his route but now doesn't work in v5 -- should Akseli get a point for a v3 backroute now?

So far have two solves for v5 - geoo who has the intended route and Akseli who has a not quite intended route but it's similar enough for my taste and quite clever so I'm counting it as legitimate for now (but if someone else gets a v5 route that I want to remove I'm probably removing that too, just a heads up  )

Oh that reminds me I should get to work at solving at some point too 

[mobius]

people who have solved my level (Tres Hombres):

1- Proxima, Akseli, geoo, gronkling
2- Clam, Proxima, Akseli, geoo, Crane,
3- geoo, Proxima
4- gronkling

version 3 will be the current version, I'm scrapping version 4.

gronkling and Proxima, Akseli, Clam spammer have found the intended solutions so far.

[Proxima]

I have a level 

[chaos_defrost]

I have a level 

Route sent 

Working on möbius's v3 and a couple others right now. Maybe I should get the v1s first though, haha

[Proxima]

Insane Steve, geoo and Akseli have all submitted the intended solution.

ccexplore and Gronkling have submitted an alternative solution (both the same one), which I'm not counting as a backroute... if anything, I like it more than the intended solution 

[Proxima]

However, using an idea from ccexplore's solution, I found a third solution, which I like so much as to eliminate both the other two.

So, here's v.2, and the previous solvers (listed in my above post) retroactively qualify as backroutes.

[EDIT: Removed attachment. See post below.]

[ccexplore]

I think you attached the wrong file, this file compares identical to the v1 attachment in your earlier post.

[Proxima]

No, I just forgot to save my changes. Should be taken care of now.

[Clam]

v4 didn't accomplish much (Gronkling found this one out too), so here's v5. All I've done is extend the invisible steel objects past the edge of the terrain - maybe a bit dishonest, but hey, I wouldn't have to do this if the darned stuff worked in the first place " title="Angry" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

I’ve waited until everyone got a solution in to make changes so I wouldn’t have to make so many updates.
There are two intended solutions. Some have found one, so far nobody’s found the other (apparently harder one). In case anybody’s interested “version 4” prevents the first one (allowing only one (you know 'hopefully' allowing only one).
I personally like the decoration the way it is in version 3 currently.

I just PM'd you a solution that works in v3 and v4 but not in v1.  Sorry.

[ccexplore]

geoo found the intended solution but here's another version that fixes something else. (Hopefully this is the final version  )

So to confirm, it is on purpose that the left entrance is actually two entrance objects offset by just one pixel?

[Gronkling]

geoo found the intended solution but here's another version that fixes something else. (Hopefully this is the final version  )

So to confirm, it is on purpose that the left entrance is actually two entrance objects offset by just one pixel?

Yes. Hopefully that works in lemmix because objects are weird and I'm not used to them at all. 

[Proxima]

So far, Gronkling has the intended solution to my v.2. Clam has an alternative solution which I like even more -- fortunately, it also saves more lemmings, so I'm happy for the level to stay as it is now, leaving saving the maximum number as an extra challenge rather than being required.

[mobius]

I initially thought my level was crappy but now I’m proud of it.

thanx to Insane Steve and ccexplore there are now a total of 4 solutions to it  They are all on the same vein and all use the same amount of skills. I'm leaving them in. There's one glitch solution geoo wants me to remove but I'm very reluctant to...
If it wasn't for my first dumb mistake I'd only have two versions (well excluding the 'phantom' 4th version)
--------------

So far, Gronkling has the intended solution to my v.2. Clam has an alternative solution which I like even more -- fortunately, it also saves more lemmings, so I'm happy for the level to stay as it is now, leaving saving the maximum number as an extra challenge rather than being required.

is version 2 supposed to say v1 like it does in your post from  Feb 27? Just making sure.. I don't think I have the right one. It's looks identical to version 1. it's under control 

geoo found the intended solution but here's another version that fixes something else. (Hopefully this is the final version  )

So to confirm, it is on purpose that the left entrance is actually two entrance objects offset by just one pixel?

Yes. Hopefully that works in lemmix because objects are weird and I'm not used to them at all. 

the left lemmings come out and turn then die, the right go off to the right. Is that correct? Btw, your level is the second hardest imo!

---------

I'd just like to remind everyone to check your steel pieces in the levels. Some seem a little out-of-place. Click "align to DOS grid. to see where it will be moved when the level is saved and closed. Moving them slightly is sometimes necessary.

[Proxima]

is version 2 supposed to say v1 like it does in your post from  Feb 27? Just making sure.. I don't think I have the right one. It's looks identical to version 1.

The "1" in the filename is for "contest round 1", presuming there's going to be another

Version 1 has steel under the long vertical terrain by the rightmost entrance. Version 2 does not (in fact, has no steel on the level).

[Gronkling]

ccexplore backrouted it so now i'm at v7, tied for first in the number of versions. 

Also this contest is incredibly fun. I still haven't solved geoo, Pooty or Insane Steve's latest version levels yet.

[lyygak]

Getting there in geoo's A REAL BUMMER FOR A level... currently have managed to save 71 out of 76 needed... aargh.
Though apparently my solution is not the intended one...

[Proxima]

Not bad. I've managed 75 so far 

[ccexplore]

ccexplore backrouted it so now i'm at v7, tied for first in the number of versions. 

Crane hasn't responded yet to my solution to his v7, which given that it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the level title, is probably a backroute.  Or maybe he's given up on backroute-fixing at this point.

Besides, in some cases of other levels, a lower backroute count is simply because the level author is not as specific about the intended solution as others.

[geoo]

Alright, two more days to get your backroute fixes in so they can be included in the pack with the final versions!
You can still post backroute fixes later, but they won't be relevant to the "how many levels from the final version pack can you solve" category, only for the backroute finder and Brickout Memorial Trophy.

I'm pretty positive I found a backroute to Crane v7 too, but I haven't heard back from him yet either.

Now that I know the intended solutions to almost all of the levels, I can only repeat how impressed I am with the levels that have been produced here, the routes are ingenious.

Not bad. I've managed 75 so far 

Version 1 or version 2? In the latter case I'm getting a bit scared.

Getting there in geoo's A REAL BUMMER FOR A level... currently have managed to save 71 out of 76 needed... aargh.
Though apparently my solution is not the intended one...

Wow, that's pretty impressive. I assume you're still refining the route you described to me? I didn't think it'd be possible to push that route even remotely as far. Perhaps I should come up with a preventive backroute fix right now, just in case it is actually possible to pull this off.

[chaos_defrost]

Went on a spree of level solving on the v1s, just have Gronkling, geoo, and Akseli's levels left for those points. I am especially pleased with how horribly I cheesed Clam's level 

Seriously, Akseli wins the award for "haha, this won't be so hard at all! ... wait, nothing I try is working WHY?!" impressions. This is, for me a very good thing 

2 days left for fixes, eh? So I can send a v6 with no chance of getting the Brickout Memorial Trophy for doing so? Well, we have a dilemma here. The angel lemming on one shoulder is telling me that Akseli's solution to my level is excellent enough to deserve to be included as an acceptable vFinal solution. The demon lemming on the other is all "but there's a realllllly easy way to squash Akseli's route go on v6 DO IT  ."

The tiebreaker is that, per my agreement with the backroute goddesses I'd need to add more junk terrain to a v6 if I made it and I don't really feel like it, so it seems laziness may tame the level design demons for now. Unless someone wants to find me a route to force my hand here, I'd not be at all adverse to that... 

[ccexplore]

To potentially complicate your decisions, I will now send you my solution to v5, which is most probably a backroute since it's very tight on time.  (Then again, that probably means easy to fix, so maybe not that complicating after all......)

[chaos_defrost]

To potentially complicate your decisions, I will now send you my solution to v5, which is most probably a backroute since it's very tight on time.  (Then again, that probably means easy to fix, so maybe not that complicating after all......)

That's actually the intended solution, nice job 

Gronkling also sent the same route Akseli did, so there's a good chance those might be the only two ways left to do it. Actually Gronkling's replay is pretty heavily convincing me to leave the level as is for now, since the subtle diffference between his and Akseli's replays make me think that if I actually wanted to remove that route, it'd be harder than at first thought. And, again, it's a really good route so I'm fine with there being two solutions to the level.

[geoo]

The tiebreaker is that, per my agreement with the backroute goddesses I'd need to add more junk terrain to a v6 if I made it and I don't really feel like it, so it seems laziness may tame the level design demons for now. Unless someone wants to find me a route to force my hand here, I'd not be at all adverse to that... 

If you add more junk terrain, I might be tempted to give you a point for nice looking level.

You can still post more backroute fixes after Tuesday, but the latest version as of Tuesday noon UTC (well, plus a few more hours, whenever I get up and compile the set of 'final' versions) will become the 'final' version in the pack with the separate 'final' version scoring.

[Proxima]

Here's my edit of "Brute Fours" with decorative terrain. (Not very much, as I wanted the outer parts to remain in keeping with the relatively simplistic style of the main part.) Gameplay is unchanged from version 2.

[Luis]

I feel like making a PSP version of that level, just to see how it will look like. I did beat it first.

[Akseli]

Yeah, I think I'll leave my level how is it now. geoo's one extra lemming saved solution and möbius' solution are the most backroutish but still enough good for me. For example, this 48/50 saved solution is in the spirit of the intended solution, and if I'll increase save requirement, this level may become too difficult, and I probably don't want that. I think that the intended solution even may be less interesting and fun than those which I've seen from different people. I'm very surprised also how I've received like 10 replays now and there are no two exactly same solutions!

Another thing, if I'll take out all the other solutions, the intended one will be almost obvious. I like my level the most in the way it is now. Steve said funnily:

Seriously, Akseli wins the award for "haha, this won't be so hard at all! ... wait, nothing I try is working WHY?!" impressions. This is, for me a very good thing 

That made me very glad, and I initially wanted that my level would be just like that.

I've been slightly busy at the moment, I'll try to solve newer versions of the levels soon.
geoo, I submitted my official solutions for the main category a couple of days ago, take a look at the spam folder possibly if you haven't noticed anything.

Btw, is this irritating for someone that I like my level with multiple solutions/does someone feel that my level neglects the backroute fixing jam? :O If someone really wants to find the intended solution, I might try to edit my level to force player use the intended solution (which will be very badly hidden then ) and send it to you, but I won't consider it as my contest level anymore so much, so I won't edit my level for this contest.

[mobius]

well the contest is almost over and it looks like I won't be getting any farther. I'm so irritatingly close to solving Proxima's and Steve's it's maddening. Technically speaking I believe the only level I solved correctly was Clam's [whose looked totally impossible to me for the long time]
and I haven't been able to make new solutions to any of the levels I've already solved.

When it's over could you post a list of all the replays or at least just intended solutions. I'd like to see the backroutes too if possible.

I personally always try find glitch-less solutions first or as much as possible until nothing works. And finding a glitchy solution is never very satisfying for me (unless it was intended).

Another thing, if I'll take out all the other solutions, the intended one will be almost obvious.

you're probably right, but personally I doubt it considering I backrouted the modified level intended to fix back-routes  The first version I really have no idea, I tried all kinds of things. I had two routes for the first pretty much down except I lost one extra lemming I needed. Then the second version; fixed that.
I'll take your challenge to find the intended solution after the contest tho.

[geoo]

geoo, I submitted my official solutions for the main category a couple of days ago, take a look at the spam folder possibly if you haven't noticed anything.

Yeah, I received them (they didn't end up in the spam folder this time), forgot to reply to you.

As for a level without a fixed intended solution, that's perfectly fine. It'd be nice though if you gave me a complete list of who backrouted which version, as it'd be hard for me to judge just from the replays in this case.

I intend to post all solutions that I receive (including those to intermediate versions) once the contest is over. In addition to the backroute reports that have been posted in this topic, I'll also try to judge solutions that I receive as backroute or not (unless the author already posted a verdict in this topic), to make sure no backroutes will be missing from the backroute scoring.


A final question, does anyone object if I upload the levelpack (latest versions) to the lemmings level database at the end of the contest? For this purpose you could also touch up the levels after the final versions have been posted (note to Proxima: I'll include your plain version 2 in the final level pack in order not to confuse people, but if there's a pack I upload to the level database, I'll upload the version with additional decoration).

Only a few hours left until I post the final versions, so get your backroute fixes in if you still have to fix anything!

btw, I don't think I'll add a preventive backroute fix to my level. If someone manages to get an alternative route to work within the next 7 days, I feel they deserve the point.

[Gronkling]

Well super quick backroute fix to put this up to v8 to fix a backroute Clam Spammer found.

[geoo]

Alright, the levelpack with the 'final' version of each level is out, refer to this post for details: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=726.msg15908#msg15908
These are the levels that you have to solve for the unofficial level solving scoring.
(Yay, I solved all of the final versions already )

I also posted an archive with all versions of all levels so far. I won't update this archive, but if there are new backroute fixes, I'll put them in the level list instead. These are only relevant for the unofficial backrouting scoring, the more you backroute, the better.

One week left to solve everything and find backroutes!

Note: if you send a backroute to some version of a level that also works in previous versions of that levels, please also send replays for the previous versions -- it'd be too tedious for me to check whether routes also work in previous versions.
You don't need to send replays for backroutes that are already listed in the list of backroutes -- nevertheless, it'd be nice if you included them.

[Clam]

After a good run of solves in recent days, I'm left with just geoo's final version to do now. I wonder how many others are in the same position?

I may or may not do a backroute run on older versions - the large number of them isn't greatly motivating though...

[ccexplore]

I was at that point just before geoo published the "final version" levelpak.   The exact order in which I solved the final-version levels are:

*Clam, *Akseli, Mobius, Crane, Steve, Pooty, Proxima, Gronkling

(* = non-backroute solution since v1)

With Gronkling's v8 solved pretty much on the same day the final version levelpak was posted (thanks to you Clam, his fix for v8 made the intended route a bit easier to see).  So yep, just left with geoo's.  Quite annoying that I'm not even at the point of the 71/80 or 75/80 that some people apparently managed.

I'm not currently planning to backroute-hunt on the intermediate versions of the levels, though I'm definitely interested in eventually seeing some of the backroutes others have apparently managed on some of the levels.

[lyygak]

Wow, that's pretty impressive. I assume you're still refining the route you described to me? I didn't think it'd be possible to push that route even remotely as far. Perhaps I should come up with a preventive backroute fix right now, just in case it is actually possible to pull this off.

Yes, I tried to hone it to the extreme. Don't think more than 71 or 72 is possible with my approach.
Sometimes you just do a level the wrong way and waste your time!

Time 9 minutes must be a hint of something!

[Proxima]

I've now solved Gronkling's v.1, though it looks like I just found an already known backroute, as it doesn't work on the final version. So, I have just geoo's and Clam's remaining, but I'm going to leave those for now and try to solve the final versions of everyone else's....

[-H0ru5-]

Hi all, it's just a clarification that i still wish to be active here, yet unable to do so.

Thank you geoo for the kind invitation, it pleases me to be remembered at all. Indeed once i made levels identical to this concept, something i was unable to perfect in its own time. It is not like i haven't read the message the first day, but truth to be told: recently i'm under a pressure so disheartening that i gradually had to abandon every single freetime and social activity, while still unsure if i will pass. On the top of that a month ago i induced an emotional breakdown in myself. I fail to understand how having a job could be any worse than being delirious in university.

I just hope you who applied for the challenge are being productive and having fun with it. Maybe we meet again when circumstances are different.
Take care of yourselves.

[Gronkling]

I just have geoo's left now. I have something that feels like it could work, however it doesn't use the climber and I have only saved 85% so far. 

[geoo]

I'm probably not doing a backroute-hunt on older versions either. But those who want to are free to do so.

-H0ru5-: That's sad to hear, I hope you'll manage to overcome your challenges, whatever it takes.

Time 9 minutes must be a hint of something!

Not really, the level can be completed within 2 minutes (I think).
I just want to make sure you don't run out of time. See how nice I am.

[chaos_defrost]

I was about to say, pretty sure geoo doesn't believe in time limits as a challenge. I wasn't going to say anything on the mega-off chance that your intended solution was Benny Hill-esque, but yea. Nothing like my level where the time limit is intended to squash certain routes (not coincidentally, I think it is feasible to use the time limit as a challenge for levels in certain instances  )

[mobius]

try as you might geoo, I don't think you'll convince others to share your hatred of time limits 

speaking of time limits, I wish the contest was over! I'm anxious to see the results and solutions.

and why wasn't there a category to rate difficulty? Sometimes everybody might agree, but not always. (this contest is a bad example of course...)

I thought of a not-totally-serious contest idea that involves designing a level in your least favorite tileset. However this might only be a challenge to Insane Steve...

[geoo]

You only got 1 day left to submit your solutions and votes. Make sure to also submit the solution for your own level!
Make sure to include separate replays to both first and final versions, and try to sumbit solutions to all intermediate versions of levels that you solved.
Also don't forget to include your votes for most fun and prettiest level. Recall that for each category you can distibute up to 6 votes over the levels, with at most 3 per level. You will lose one point in each category for your own level if you don't vote or distribute less than 4 votes.
(You're also encouraged to rank all the levels by difficulty and submit that list as well.)
EDIT: Out of interest, I'd be curious to see your best attempts at my level v2 as well, even if you haven't solved it yet.

I attached my solutions and votes in an encrypted archive now, which means I cannot change my submissions anymore. I didn't go for a backroute hunt in the end. Even if you don't trust me, you can now just send me your solution unencrypted. Once the deadline is over, I will post the password.


As for time limits, I just wanted to save you unnecessary annoyance by running out of time. In a few instances time limits can make an interesting challenge, but it seems my level is hard enough without a strict time limit.

Yeah, I suppose votes for the difficulty might have been interesting as well, even though the number of people who solved a level might give an indication.
Actually, note to everyone: you're encouraged to submit a ranking of the levels by difficulty in addition to your votes. If I get enough of them, I might make a little statistic for these too.

Making a level in my least favourite style? I don't recall ever having made a level in the dirt style. Though Gronkling showed that dirt levels can look pretty amazing! Perhaps short level design jams with specific themes that take very little time (no aim to make a super hard level with all backroutes eliminated) could be an interesting intermission.

[Clam]

try as you might geoo, I don't think you'll convince others to share your hatred of time limits 

Well, you got me too - mine's also 9 minutes, and doesn't have to be. It must be a Lix thing

For least favourite tileset, how about the least favourite of the community as a whole? On current evidence, that would mean a snow-themed contest. (Fewest votes between here and here. I know, not favourite != least favourite, but still)

[ccexplore]

The exact order in which I solved the final-version levels are:

*Clam, *Akseli, Mobius, Crane, Steve, Pooty, Proxima, Gronkling

And now I finally submitted solution to geoo v2, just before the contest closes.

Turns out a route I had over a week ago that seemed too far off, actually just needs a little tweaking to work.

[Proxima]

My internet connection has been dead for a few days, but it came back to life just in time for me to make my submissions 

Oh, and I've received one more v2 solution, from Akseli, who has found the intended solution.

[ccexplore]

For least favourite tileset, how about the least favourite of the community as a whole? On current evidence, that would mean a snow-themed contest. (Fewest votes between here and here. I know, not favourite != least favourite, but still)

Maybe others feel differently, but I'd prefer not to have a contest round where everyone is forced to use the same tileset.  I like the "least favorite/least used" tileset idea in concept, but at the very least we should end up with a choice of at least 3 such tilesets I think.

Maybe just a restriction that you can't use any of the tilesets that were already used on round 1.  If I counted correctly this leaves 4 tilesets [edit: actually 5, if we also include the Xmas tileset], although granted, some of them aren't exactly "least used" in general.

[Pooty]

I've finished my participation in this contest. I solved everyone's level at least once, except for Proxima's and geoo's. I also didn't solve gronkling's and Steve's final versions of their levels. It was a good, challenging and enjoyable contest. Good job, everyone.

[mobius]

Pooty just found a brilliant solution to mine that I'm tempted to enforce ...oh right, damn, that part of the contest is over.    Well I might just alter it in my level pack. Good job Pooty 


while my contest idea was partly serious I think there are better ideas that I could come up with. Like..... one or two skill level, few # of lemming, use every piece of terrain in the set, use only a few pieces of terrain in the set, level with no steel...

I agree with ccexplore I don't think I'd like a contest where everyone's level is the same terrain.


P.S. Snow is your favorite isn't it Clam?

[chaos_defrost]

I kind of like the idea of "each author makes a level with their personal least favorite terrain." -- Will require some honesty from the participants but I can't see this being a problem on these boards plus me + Rock tileset = lol 

[mobius]

what would be interesting 

it wouldn't be a real challenge for those like me who like all the tilesets however. I think I said a while back rock was my least favorite but I think that's changed. Honestly I like them all and I'd have a hard time picking my least favorite.

[geoo]

The results are out! Check this topic: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=738.0

The password of the archive with my solutions and votes from above: t9u*iebr6AsL+_r0

[lyygak]

For what it's worth, my 71 saved on geoo's level.

[geoo]

Wow, that's pretty close. I guess it took quite a bit of effort tweaking it that far. (I like how the Chameleon eats the digger at the end. )
I might move the branch a bit further up, so it becomes a bit more clear that this is route is not going to work.

[ccexplore]

Impressive. I tried that route briefly when I was solving the level but failed miserably with it (which I suppose is a good thing for finding the intended solution).  It seems like most if not all other variations of that route end up with significantly higher death toll due to eg. more lemmings splatting from the fall off the build bridge, and of course the lizard trap is doing its job to discourage that route as well.