No Builders

[Luis]

Are you sure the Climber falling and landing on a terrain like in my level is a glitch? Because that narrow gap trick works in the PSP too. That's how I was able to build the "Room with no exit" and "Let's go to the moon" levels with the diangle terrains. I put the slopes really close to each other to the point where even though there's a little hole, the Lemmings will walk up the slopes instead of walking down back to the place it came from. Seems like a normal thing to me. The small level that I made was only to show a new way for a climber to travel around. I was gonna make a level that uses that, but I'm still trying to picture how the level will look like.

[mobius]

Are you sure the Climber falling and landing on a terrain like in my level is a glitch? Because that narrow gap trick works in the PSP too. That's how I was able to build the "Room with no exit" and "Let's go to the moon" levels with the diangle terrains. I put the slopes really close to each other to the point where even though there's a little hole, the Lemmings will walk up the slopes instead of walking down back to the place it came from. Seems like a normal thing to me. The small level that I made was only to show a new way for a climber to travel around. I was gonna make a level that uses that, but I'm still trying to picture how the level will look like.

whether it's a glitch or not is debatable. I should say; whether it's a good or bad thing is debatable. I thought of making a level like that but then I decided a situation where you have to build to the wall as the lemming climbs up then the builder closes it as he comes down is more challenging.
The idea I had (previously) was; you have to build up close to the wall like that, without connecting. This idea is less demanding on timing. It also relays on a technical maneuver, however, which can be very hard to grasp. But I thought of this a while ago as did other people apparently so maybe it's not a bad idea. [of course my idea wouldn't be 'no builders'...]

It can get tricky in Lemmix especially. I'm not sure if this is a problem you'd encounter with this or not (obviously it wasn't in the level you posted).

Because of the way climbers check for terrain above them, they can either climb through small overhangs at the top of a wall, or fall down when there is a tiny gap (which it should be able to get into) with terrain hanging above. The outcome depends on the height of the wall.
-from Glitches in Lemmings

[ccexplore]

I put the slopes really close to each other to the point where even though there's a little hole, the Lemmings will walk up the slopes instead of walking down back to the place it came from. Seems like a normal thing to me.

It's hard to tell what you mean since I don't have PSP, but in any case I really wouldn't call it the same thing since it's about walking not climbing.  The behavior you see here with the climber in DOS Lemmings only happens because for some reason, the game shifts the climber an additional pixel away from the wall when it bumps its head and falls.  In other words, instead of landing at exactly where he was before he starts climbing, he lands even farther away from the wall than he was located the last time he's still walking.

Another way to see the strangeness of it is, if the terrain was more like this

Code: [Select]

XXXX
...X
...X
...X
...X
...X
...X
...X
...X
...X
X.YX
Starting from Y and after climbing up the wall on the right, he would fall straight through the X.Y gap rather than landing on Y, even though in both this case and in your level, you have exactly one pixel of terrain and one pixel of gap.

It's hard to find a logical way to explain for that additional distance shifting away from the wall.  In DOS Lemmings walkers will always fall off even a one-pixel gap.  In PSP with higher graphics resolution, it may be possible to create terrain that have tiny gaps narrower than the distance a lemming moves walking a single step, but I would think that when the gap is wider than the single-step walk distance a walking lemming would probably fall too?

In any case, I have to say glitch or not, even the original levels from the game seem to have more interesting examples of builderless level ideas than the one you present.  You may want to create a few more other examples featuring other ideas and then maybe put them together in one level.

[Luis]

It's hard to tell what you mean since I don't have PSP, but in any case I really wouldn't call it the same thing since it's about walking not climbing. 

This is what I mean: http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee91/Luis2_06/MYDC0721.jpg
There's a little hole that the Lemmings can walk through and there's a very small pixel at the edge of the diangle terrain where the Lemmings can walk up from, by the time they turn around. To be honest, I didn't know that little pixel at the edge of the terrain was there, until I took a picture of it. No wonder the PSP Lemmings can walk up the diangle terrains. If you close the hole, the Lemmings won't be able to get through. They will just turn around from it.

As for the climber level I posted, I'm still gonna build a level for myself that uses that, whether it gives a lot of depth or not. I wanna play a level where that's part of the solution.

[mobius]

here's a builder-less level that doesn't use any special tricks or anything.
EDIT: ignore, see my post below with a correct version.

This didn't turn out like I wanted but it's builder-less at least. I've been trying to make levels involving timing. (I don't mean fast-paced or quick movement/bomber timing) I mean a level that requires you to do out-of-place things in a very specific order. I think these might be the hardest kind and are incredibly difficult to create. For me they are anyway. I don't know what I'm talking about.

the level I posted here: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=563.msg11839#msg11839 is a better example of a builderless level that I've made, I think. I can't remember if I released it as a pack or if it was only as a single level file though. It has some placeholder name like "it's a long way to the top".

I still haven't solved this level! It's a really good one.

[geoo]

You probably didn't intend for this to happen, considering it leaves a few skills.

My latest lix level happens to be without builders as well, and is obviously timing based.

[mobius]

Oops, right, I forgot about that. I initially even included a blocker but remembered miner-turning before I was done. Here's a fix.
EDIT: another fix

the intended solution may leave skills

[geoo]

Still not particularly exciting solution:

[Crane]

...
Garjen (J. Gareth Moreton)
GARJEN09: Faithful Friends

Heh, that brings back memories.  I did make another non-Builder level named "3W" (GARJEN04, I think), but that was a fairly basic Blocker and Bomber affair.  I did realise quickly that non-Builder levels are tricky to make, and that was probably my only real attempt.  Despite the backroute, I feel it wasn't too bad an attempt - here it is in action: www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkXYB32_oAk (Hmmm, I have a thing for levels with time limits of 2 minutes!)

If I get the chance I might have another go at making a builder-less level.

[Akseli]

Your other builderless levels are:
GARJEN00: Look familiar? LOOK AGAIN!, Lemming Cathodes, Breakout!, Death Trap
GARJEN03: The Incinerator
GARJEN07: Everyone turn left (Part Two)
GARJEN08: Everyone turn left

At least last two levels were same as in the original game I guess, and for me, Faithful Friends is clearly your best builderless level. My solution saves 3 climbers in it.