Undamaged Levels (ONML etc.)

[ccexplore]

This is an extension of Luis' "Undamaged Levels" challenge, to the other Lemmings games on DOS.  (I can consider keeping results for other versions too if there're sufficient interest in that.)

I needed to start a new topic so that the list of results can be kept as the first post of the topic instead of buried somewhere on page X.  DOS Lemmings results repeated here for completeness.

Rules summary: beat the level without ever destroying any pixels/cells of terrain originally present in the level.  Destroying the stairs from a builder is fine because it's not part of the level's original terrain (ditto for other types of added terrain, for games like Lemmings 2 and beyond).

(* means one or more glitches are required for the given result.  If placed over the level itself, it means glitches are require for the challenge even without achieving 100%; if placed only over the 100% result, it means the level can be solved for the challenge without glitches, but glitches are required to achieve 100%.)

DOS Lemmings
Fun: 2, 3, 7-12, 14-16, 17*, 19, 20, 24, 25*, 26-28, 29*
    100%: all except 3, 17, 25, 29
Tricky: 1, 3, 4, 5*, 6-10, 12, 13, 22, 24, 26, 28*, 29
    100%: all except 5, 24, 28
Taxing: 2, 3, 4*, 9, 10, 11*, 15, 16, 18, 20*, 22-24, 27*, 28
    100%: all except 2, 4, 20, 27, 28
Mayhem: 1, 2*, 6, 10, 14, 15, 17, 18, 25, 30
    100%: all except 10, 15, 30

Genesis (MegaDrive) Lemmings
(unique levels in bold, Genesis-only achievements on non-unique levels in italics)
Fun: 2, 3, 7-12, 17*, 20, 23, 24, 25*, 26-28
    100%: all except 3, 17, 25
Tricky: 2-5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 14, 21*, 22, 24, 26, 28*
    100%: all except 21, 24, 28
Taxing: 4*, 9, 10, 11*, 15, 16, 18, 22-24, 28
    100%: all except 4
Mayhem: 2*, 9, 14, 17, 25, 28*
    100%: all except 14, 28
Present 7, 9, 11, 22, 30
    100%: 9, 11, 30
Sunsoft: 11, 19
    100%: all

DOS ONML
Tame: 2, 4, 5*, 7, 8, 9, 10*, 13, 14, 15, 17*, 20*
    100%: all except 5, 10, 17, 20
Crazy: 4, 5, 11, 15*
    100%: 4, 5
Wild: 3, 8, 9*, 11, 16, 19, 20
    100%: all except 20
Wicked: 4, 9, 13, 15, 17, 18, 20
    100%: all except 4, 15, 20
Havoc: 10, 12, 15*, 16, 17
    100%: 12, 17

DOS Xmas
91: none possible
92: none possible
Frost: 2, 3, 6, 8, 9, 11, 13*, 16
    100%: all except 6
Hail: 5, 7, 12, 16
    100%: all
Flurry: 1-4, 7, 9, 12-15
    100%: all
Blitz: 1*, 2, 7*, 9, 10, 13
    100%: all

DOS Lemmings 2
[notation: <level number>:<maximum out of 60⁺ you can save without glitches>(<max save with glitches>*)
 highlighted results are gold]
⁺To make it easier to read and compare results, we will consider you can always start off with 60 lemmings in every level, even though in reality that isn't the case w/o using cheats.  According to current records, you only lose a lemming each in Polar 8 and Classic 5.

Classic:  2:59(60*),  3:4,  4:2(8*),  6:4(8*),  10:2(60*)
Beach: 1:60, 2:60, 3:5, 4:1, 5:60, 7:0(1*), 8:60, 9:0(1*), 10:0(1*)
Cavelems
Circus
Egyptian: 4:1, 6:60, 7:2, 10:5(60*)
Highland
Medieval: 4:2, 7:1, 9:60, 10:60
Outdoor: 1:60, 2:60, 3:14, 4:60, 5:60, 6:60, 7:60^*?, 8:1(60*), 9:1(60*), 10:5
Polar
Shadow
Space: 1:60, 2:60, 3:1, 5:60, 6:60, 8:1, 9:60, 10:60
Sports: 3:60, 4:60, 5:0(1*), 6:11(60*), 7:6(8*), 8:2(60*), 9:1(60*) 10:60

DOS Lemmings 3
Note
 - <level number>:<maximum saved out of 20>
 - To make it easier to read and compare results, we will consider you always start off with 20 lemmings in every level.  Remember that due to the reserve system in this game, you receive for example 11 just for getting a single lemming to the exit without anyone else killed (besides the nuke).
 - Highlight means all lemmings saved, including bonus lemmings.
 - Since the game auto-nukes on time up, and there isn't another way to quit without nuking, damage from the nuke doesn't count.  In some cases they may be avoidable by, for example, jumping the leftover lemmings or make them suicide.  Levels where nuke damage appears unavoidable are marked ^!.
 - Since most of time it is impossible to avoid causing disappearing platforms to disappear, that won't count as "damage" as long as it is done via a normally non-destructive action (eg. walking, shimmying, etc.).  Levels where such actions unavoidably occur are marked *.

Classic: 1:20, 2:20^!, 4:20, 5:20, 7:20, 9:20*, 10:20*, 13:22, 14:11, 15:23, 16:20*^!, 19:22, 20:15*, 21:20*, 22:20*, 23:20, 25:21*^!, 27:11*, 28:20*^!, 29:21*^!
Egyptian: 2:20^!, 4:20, 5:21, 10:20^!, 11:20*, 12:20^!, 13:11*^!, 14:23*, 18:20^!, 23:21^!, 27:21*, 28:20^!, 30:11*^!1
Shadow: 1:20, 2:20, 3:11, 4:21*^!, 5:12*^!, 8:20, 9:22*

¹Uses the second glitch listed on this post.

DOS 3D Lemmings

PC Lemmings Revolution
1-1 (100%), 1-2 (100%)
2-1, 2-2 (100%)
3-2, 3-5
4-2 (100%), 4-3 (100%), 4-6 (100%)
5-1 (100%), 5-2* (100%)
6-3, 6-8 (100%)
7-1 (100%), 7-7 (100%), 7-8* (100%)
8-2* (100%), 8-3 (100%), 8-7* (100%), 8-8*¹ (100%), 8-9*, 8-10* (100%)
9-6* (100%), 9-8*¹, 9-10 (100%), 9-11 (100%)
10-2 (100%), 10-5, 10-6 (100%*), 10-8* (100%), 10-10 (100%)
11-1 (100%*), 11-2 (100%), 11-3, 11-6 (100%), 11-9 (100%), 11-11 (100%), 11-12 (100%)
12-1*^1? (100%), 12-2, 12-4

¹Requires this glitch.  Visually the terrain looks undisturbed, but the lemmings will react exactly like the terrain has been dug away.  Probably shouldn't really count as "undamaged", but interesting enough to at least merit a mention here.

[Proxima]

Tame: 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 13, 14, 15 (all 100%)
Crazy: 4, 5, 11 (100%: 4, 5)
Wild: 3, 8, 9*, 11, 16, 19 (100%: all except 3)
Wicked: 9, 13, 17, 18 (all 100%)
Havoc: 10, 12 (100%: 12)

*Wild 9 is possible with the nuke glitch, of course. Is it also possible with sliding?

[mobius]

  " title="Angry" class="smiley" /> hey! c'mon give somebody else a chance. 

I was gonna try some of these but I can't keep up with you guys. I'll just do them myself and won't look at the answers.

[Proxima]

Sorry. I had intended just to rattle off the levels that are trivial for this challenge (or already solved in the builders-only challenge) so as to save everyone else the effort -- then I noticed (though I had guessed this might be the case) that ONML doesn't seem to have any levels that are possible but non-trivial. Unless some more of the Tame levels can be done using Clam's blocker-glitching method. Or unless I missed a few

[Clam]

Unless some more of the Tame levels can be done using Clam's blocker-glitching method.

Yes to that . Here are:

• Tame 5 using the block and bomb through steel variant.
• Tame 17 using the wall-then-block variant.
• Tame 20 using ccexplore's 'blocker-pulling' method. This comes with the added complication that you can only save climbers this way, and there aren't enough climbers to save 25/50. This means you need to use the nuke glitch to cheat the percentages, and then quit the level before the remaining lemmings explode and destroy the terrain. (Is that a first for challenges? I think it is ) The attached replay saves 18/28 or 64%. There are a couple of other Tames where this might work, I haven't tried yet.

[Akseli]

Wild20, Wicked20 and Havoc17 are definitely possible. All my solutions lacks one lemming from 100% though, so these might be possible to improve.

[Proxima]

Oh, right, going along the bottom, I'd always assumed the grass traps completely prevented this as a solution route  Here it is with 100%.

I had been trying Tame 17 last night but only managed to get through the first staircase, which shows how hopeless I am at that method 

Interesting solution to Wild 20. It's also possible by direct drop (but not 100%).

(I feel embarrassed about missing Wicked 20, though.)

[Proxima]

Havoc 16

[ccexplore]

I think I have gotten everything updated for now.  Proxima was right about how much less conducive ONML is for this challenge.  The given skills and require save percentages tend to be tighter, plus most levels end up with some obstacle that really need to be destroyed (even if by the most trivial of moves) to get through.  I did spot a few more that should be possible, and a few more that are covered by results in other challenge threads, but not a whole lot more.  I will probably leave the easier ones for others to discover for now.

I've decided to also add Sega Genesis (aka Megadrive) Lemmings for this thread, to help increase the pool of levels people can look into.  Although I suspect that many of the levels from that game will also end up being ONML-like for this challenge as well. 

[Proxima]

Looks like it. Here's what I've got after a quick skim through the Genesis levels (considering only the unique levels):

Fun 23 (100%)
Tricky 9, 11 (both 100%)
Taxing 28 (100%)
Mayhem 9, 14 (100%: 9)
Present 7, 9, 11, 22, 30 (100%: 9, 11, 30)

[LemSteven]

I've got a hunch that Wicked 15 may be doable for this challenge, using a variation of Clam Spammer's no-basher solution that he posted here.  Given the 80% save requirement, there should be plenty of time to seal off the left and right sides of the starting platform and cut off the splat fall before too many lemmings are lost.  The only thing I haven't worked out is the "extreme precision" required to build over the ice shooter trap.

[Proxima]

Good call. Here's a replay 

[ccexplore]

Here's what I've got after a quick skim through the Genesis levels (considering only the unique levels):

Wow really, nothing from Sunsoft rating? Gotta take a look at that later tonight.

[Clam]

Crazy 15 can be done with direct drop, not 100% though.
Havoc 15 is done undamaged in my blockers+builders solution here (uses sliding).

*Wild 9 is possible with the nuke glitch, of course. Is it also possible with sliding?

Seems unlikely. Sliding leaves a lemming behind, you have no climbers and you need 100%. That means you have to use lots of builders to force the last lemming up through the terrain, in addition to a probably builder-heavy sliding setup.

[ccexplore]

Wow really, nothing from Sunsoft rating? Gotta take a look at that later tonight.

Sunsoft indeed has a paucity of levels suitable for this challenge.  But I did manage Sunsoft 11 and 19 undamaged through some fancy builder work, even 100% for 11 (already required for 19).  I've attached Lemmix replays to show what the solutions look like (you can find the Genesis LVLs somewhere on the forums), but yes, I have confirmed them on Genesis emulator as well.

Sunsoft 25 also looks like potentially doable via sliding, but I'll leave that for another day.  And well, that's it sadly.  13 may initially look plausible with "pushing through wall via safely explodable blockers on steel ground", but the nearby one-way-wall actually cancel out some of the steel (yes, tested so in Genesis) so bombers there will remain destructive.

[ccexplore]

(considering only the unique levels):

It may actually be worth a quick look at the "non-unique" levels since some of them may differ quite a bit from the more familiar versions.  For example, Tricky 14 (Menacing) on Genesis gives you 20 builders instead of 15, plus slightly less obstacles to deal with (eg. where you start entering level from compared with the normal versions).  That may just be enough to put it into plausible territory.

[Akseli]

Genesis Mayhem 28 is possible just like Crazy 15. Present 6 had quite strict time limit, I barely managed to save required 98%.

[Proxima]

It may actually be worth a quick look at the "non-unique" levels since some of them may differ quite a bit from the more familiar versions.  For example, Tricky 14 (Menacing) on Genesis gives you 20 builders instead of 15, plus slightly less obstacles to deal with (eg. where you start entering level from compared with the normal versions).  That may just be enough to put it into plausible territory.

You're right. Tricky 14 is possible (with 100%). By the way, you've incorrectly listed Taxing 28 as non-100%.

[ccexplore]

you've incorrectly listed Taxing 28 as non-100%.

Thanks, fixed.

Present 6 had quite strict time limit, I barely managed to save required 98%.

Unfortunately on the actual Genesis (or emulator), IIRC the timer will go down faster than it does on DOS Lemmings/Lemmix.  Therefore I don't think your solution will finish in time on the actual game.  I'll take a look at that level later tonight or later this week.

[ccexplore]

I have now confirmed Wicked 4 (Oh No! It's the 4th Dimension!) undamaged, thanks again to alfonz1986's method allowing me just enough builders.

[Clam]

Tame 10 with blocking through walls + nuke glitch (saved 18/35 = 51%)

[ccexplore]

Genesis Tricky 21 confirmed possible, via glitch of blockers pushing lemmings.  The key is that the pillar right of the exit is actually mostly steel, so the blockers can be exploded without doing damage, allowing for the multiple applications of blockers.

The attached zip file contains a Lemmix replay for the converted LVL of the level.  However, in actual game, I found that, either due to mistake in the conversion, or some subtle difference in game mechanics, the 2nd lemmings-pushing blocker cannot be exploded safely (steel area is not 100% accurate in the LVL?), instead it has to be freed by another lemming exploding safely.  I have included some screenshots in the zip file to show that the solution can still be made to work despite that complication.

[Akseli]

Unfortunately on the actual Genesis (or emulator), IIRC the timer will go down faster than it does on DOS Lemmings/Lemmix.  Therefore I don't think your solution will finish in time on the actual game.

Well then my solution seems invalid, I had only few spare frames when the last required lemming entered the exit.

I tried the Xmas/Holiday levels and got these results:

Xmas91 and Xmas92: No solutions found
Frost: 2, 3, 9, 16 (all 100% except 3)
Hail: 5, 7, 12, 16 (all 100% except 5)
Flurry: 1, 2, 3, 4, 9, 12, 13, 14, 15 (all 100% except 9)
Blitz: 9, 10 (both 100%)

Solutions for Hail 7 and Hail 12 are trivial (levels don't give terrain removal skills). All solutions are possible without glitches. I guess it is possible to get 100% in Hail 5, but not in Frost 3 or Flurry 9.

And sorry for going too fast if I spoil somebody's fun!

[mobius]

If I have time tomorrow I think I'll go into Revolution and try out this challenge. 

Since ccexplore, LemSteven and Minimac will be my only competitors maybe I'll have at least a chance at giving some input.

(who wants to bet tomorrow morning ccexplore comes in with 20 levels of revolution completed already?)

[Proxima]

Here's Flurry 9 100%.

Hail 5 100% was already done by Clam and myself in the "skills you need for maximum %" topic, but I'll attach my replay again anyway.

[Proxima]

Blizzard 13 (hijacking one of Clam's replays and modifying it to meet this challenge).

Flurry 7 (100%) and Blizzard 7 (100%, glitch) have been done in previous challenges. Frost 13 has the nuke glitch solution.

[ccexplore]

I've just found a result not-yet-reported for one of the Xmas levels.   Not only is the solution a result for this challenge thread, but the very same solution also improves the reported result on 5 other existing challenge threads!  (Granted, some of the threads have a great deal of overlap.)  What's truly bizarre though, is how this solution hadn't been found or reported all this time until now.  It is pretty much within the ability of anyone here to find the solution, no glitches are used and no precision moves needed.  Even the concept behind it I'm sure has been seen in many other levels.

So, let's see who's the first person to figure out which level I'm talking about.

[Proxima]

Probably not this one since it doesn't meet all the clues, but here's Frost 11 (100% as required).

[mobius]

I did a couple of easy ones from Revolution. (There's surprisingly not all that many levels applicable for this challenge)

5-2 “Kriss Kross” I saved 28/30, but it could probably be improved. No glitch needed! [unless you count lemmings walking on top of blockers a glitch]
Interestingly enough; I was planning on using the falling bomber glitch to solve this level only to discover it doesn’t work—for some reason falling bombers-made blockers don’t land correctly and appear to “hover above the ground” [screenshot attached] and other lemmings fall right through them! However I then discovered I don’t even need that glitch. Making a left facing water lemming a blocker works like normal for the other falling normal lemmings.

6-8 'Wheelbarrows of Doom' 100% with no glitches. Also fairly easy because of the surplus of (unnecessary? ) builders.

7-1 ‘Designed with Love’ with 100%. Bomber reset glitch used. Not much explanation is needed, pretty straightforward. As for without glitches, not sure yet.

7-7 ‘Swarthy Seadogs’. I saved 98/100. (Reset Nuke Glitch. there are no bombers in this level)
-set RR to 99
-let all the lemmings come out and block at the very edge of the top platform. This way they’ll all turn around, flip the first switch and go into the empty pool before the shredder gets there. The blocker however will be killed by the shredder.
-Have one athlete climb out to the left and block when he lands. This creates a safe fall for the rest of them.
-Build out of the pool. Block on the lower platform (near the other shredder)
-Have a right facing lemming build over the blocker but also bash through his steps beneath him so he goes out alone. He builds over the last switch you don’t want to press then build to free the rest of the lemmings. I nuked/reset to save one more lemming. I didn’t try to save the other.

note: I discovered something while playing this level (this may already be mentioned in the glitches thread>> Once you reset with the Nuke, you won’t be able to activate nuke again.

7-8 'Build em Up then Bring em Down'
*I discovered yet another glitch while playing this level. This is getting ridiculous. * I told Simon in IRC I have yet to play this game and not discover odd behavior. It'll have to be discussed.
Anyway, this one is possible 100% with reset bomber glitch.

8-3 'Under and Up' 100% with only builders. [this is actually how I originally solved the level. (instead of going 'under and up' which is harder)

8-8 'Take her up to warp speed Captain' is impossible however; if you ignore the beginning where you have to dig/bash or mine through the first obstacle the rest is doable.
-do it normally (either sacraficing two lemmings to flip the switches or save the lower one by building to the balloon. Build to the Teleport, build over the purple thing, and block all the lemmings together in a tight spot and free them so they miss the shredder.

[ccexplore]

Probably not this one since it doesn't meet all the clues, but here's Frost 11 (100% as required).

Definitely not the level I have in mind.  However I haven't bothered to check Frost 11 results from all challenge threads, so if you think there actually are any results from other challenges that your solution is an improvement on, feel free to alert us!
 

No glitch needed! [unless you count lemmings walking on top of blockers a glitch]

I have to think about this.  I actually do find the whole blocker thing a bit glitch-like, because if memory serves not only can you merely walk on top of the blocker, but you can do strange things like dig down through it.  It doesn't affect the blocker lemming himself but effectively removes a few cells of blocker field for each stroke of digging.  This digging behavior is pretty glitch-like, but maybe merely the walking part can be considered no.
 
Anyway, you see what I did on the results post.

8-8 'Take her up to warp speed Captain' is impossible however; if you ignore the beginning where you have to dig/bash or mine through the first obstacle the rest is doable.

I actually haven't played that far into Lemmings Revolution yet (I kinda stopped playing shortly after Xmas last year, though I'd like to resume and complete the game at some point), so I'll have to look more into it to see what the impossibility was about, and why it is of interest so say anything about ignoring some of the obstacles.
 
I seem to vaguely recall that some Reovolution level features objects that aren't triggered by any lemmings actions, and yet can destroy terrain on their own.  Strictly speaking the level isn't undamaged then, but perhaps it would be of interest to note solutions where no damages are done by the lemmings (but absolutely unavoidable damage from level objects okay)?

[ccexplore]

Here's Frost 8 undamaged 100%, arguably glitch-free.  (No, not the answer to the question.  I'll avoid revealing that one for a few more days giving everyone a chance.)

Interestingly, Clam mentioned the possibility of a builders-only 100% solution on this level, but looks like it hasn't actually been confirmed, despite what was put into that thread's OP.  Good thing I can use more than builders here.

[mobius]

I have to think about this.  I actually do find the whole blocker thing a bit glitch-like, because if memory serves not only can you merely walk on top of the blocker, but you can do strange things like dig down through it.  It doesn't affect the blocker lemming himself but effectively removes a few cells of blocker field for each stroke of digging.  This digging behavior is pretty glitch-like, but maybe merely the walking part can be considered no.

I say call it a glitch. Considering what you said plus I don’t think it’s really ‘intended’ function. It’s not something that happens in any other Lemmings game (that I’m aware).

I actually haven't played that far into Lemmings Revolution yet (I kinda stopped playing shortly after Xmas last year, though I'd like to resume and complete the game at some point), so I'll have to look more into it to see what the impossibility was about, and why it is of interest so say anything about ignoring some of the obstacles.

I say ‘impossible’ because the entrance is completely surrounded by terrain on almost all sides. The only thing I can think of is going through the ceiling but I think it’s a slim chance.  I tried that—even if it could work; you’d have to end up digging through terrain anyway. [Unless we discover a glitch where lemmings randomly transport across the level. At this point it’s not looking too far-fetched. ] Anyway I probably shouldn't have mentioned that one. I just wanted to try it because it was a good challenge-level for past challenges.

I seem to vaguely recall that some Reovolution level features objects that aren't triggered by any lemmings actions, and yet can destroy terrain on their own.  Strictly speaking the level isn't undamaged then, but perhaps it would be of interest to note solutions where no damages are done by the lemmings (but absolutely unavoidable damage from level objects okay)?

If you’re talking about the shredder for instance (shredder/saw idk). Yes it can destroy regular terrain and I agree. The shredder destroying terrain isn’t the player controlling a lemming so…

[ccexplore]

Anyway I probably shouldn't have mentioned that one. I just wanted to try it because it was a good challenge-level for past challenges.

That's okay.  Actually, it would be logical to later spin-off a related challenge along the lines of "least damage needed to solve level/achieve max %".  The only issue is how to measure damage.  Logically it should be the exact number of terrain pixels, but currently it is infeasible to measure, and even if it is feasible, it'll likely just make the challenges devolve to a point of uninteresting (and pixel-precise) fine-tuning.

Measuring simply by number of skills spent that did damage (even if just a single pixel) is much more feasible and likely the way such a challenge would be measured.  Fundamentally it is of a very different nature from number of pixels, for example:

  |          |          |
  |          |          |
  |          |          |
=============

Suppose you can get through an obstacle like this either by 3 bashers bashing through each thin vertical wall, or by digging down into the floor and then just bash across.  The former clearly damages fewer pixels, while the latter uses up less skills.

Undamaged-level challenge basically requires both number of damaging skills, as well as number of damaged pixels, to be both zero.  So I guess it is equally valid to spin-off on number of skills as on number of damaged pixels, even if the latter feels more natural to me.

[edit: perhaps as a rough compromise, each stroke (counting partial ones equally as completed ones) of a basher, miner or digger should be counted individually?  Avoids the spectacle of favoring long continuous tunnels.  But then again, not sure anyone wants to look at minimizing dig strokes any more than pixels in "Just Dig". ]

[Proxima]

Definitely not the level I have in mind.  However I haven't bothered to check Frost 11 results from all challenge threads, so if you think there actually are any results from other challenges that your solution is an improvement on, feel free to alert us!

Thanks for reminding me to check  I need to change the move order, but my solution leads to a one-skill-per-lemming solution, which hasn't been found for this level before.

[ccexplore]

Cool.

Speaking of checking old stuff, the builders+bashers solution for Blitz 2 works here as well.  Result added.

[mobius]

I apologize for writing solutions to levels when I forgot you haven’t played them yet.
[that's the second time I did that  " title="Angry" class="smiley" />]

8-7 ‘Watch out Evil About’ - 46/50 - bomber-reset *screenshot attached
[I keep running into the problem of high falls in this game]

-it’s basically like the normal way [not the left backroute] except;

-first I blocked the lemmings then made a worker a blocker and freed him to wait for the weasels to go by.
-Make him a bomber and reset to survive the fall to the bottom.
-build over the teleporter and continue building up toward the area with steel and the retractable platform. When he turns around wait for him to come down, pass the time door and build once to make a safe height for the others.
When he comes back; zig zag up the steel beams then build to the retractable platform so he turns around then build to the switch.
- I had exactly 1 builder left at this point. To free the rest of the lemmings build over the blocker; Not all of them made it through the time door. I could never get the glitch to work where you pack them real tight and sneak by the time door.

9-6 ‘the high dive’ 100% once again thanks to the reset-bomber glitch. *screenshot

You can build over the huge mountain over the laser gate. Simply block the lemmings in the area under the top pool and reset a worker to survive the (2) falls. Then build. Once again I had exactly enough builders.

---------
In the record post you have 2-2 instead it should be 5-2.
Also why is it  ‘DOS Revolution?’ 

[mobius]

EDIT: I realize that now I'm getting carried away but it seems like nobody else is interested in Revolution at the time being. If anybody else wants a chance just let me know.

9-8 ‘Feeling Gravity’s Pull’ is possible even though it doesn’t look it because of an in-level glitch. 50/65 Glitches required.

At the middle entrance you can dig through the thin platform at the very edge near the wall without actually destroying the terrain. It looks intact but Lemmings will fall through. Idk if you want to consider this okay or not.
Since you only need to save those lemmings (from the middle entrance, you can completely ignore the other two). You can build to get a total of four lemmings (two on each side) at the switches on the outside part.

9-10 ‘Waste-not want not part 1’ 100% and absolutely no glitches!
(This level actually has many solutions, despite being quite difficult at first)

-I like to set RR around 80
-make first lem athlete. Let him climb over the wall and flip switch and walk all the way to the end of the platform then build to the small steel block.
-As the other lemmings begin to follow him, after they all fall onto the platform he’s currently on, make the last one bash air twice to slow him down.
-the first lem (that built) will come back and flip the switch while the one you just stalled should flip it back. So: the first can climb back up to the area where the entrance is. The rest of the lemmings will turn around and flip the switch again and you can ignore them; actually that’s it—watch the rest happen and it’s solved!

-making the RR 99 might allow u to use less bashers.

9-11 ‘Ouch Me Head’ 100% no glitches.
[it's pretty simple. Just stalling]

10-2 ‘Legend of Smelly Belly ‘100% no glitches
[not much explanation needed here either]

What I usually do is dig a hole near the entrance area to trap them and climb to get worker out. Instead I just build to the area between that and the lowest weasel trap and that traps the lemmings that come out of the time door. I had a worker build over that and up to the other stuff and had another dig through that stair to keep him alone.

[ccexplore]

I apologize for writing solutions to levels when I forgot you haven’t played them yet.

No worries.  Actually, I hadn't read any of your solutions earlier in the week, I just copied your results to the first post.

Also why is it  ‘DOS Revolution?’ 

Ha!  Good catch, I forgot that one game doesn't use DOS anymore.  Changed to "PC" now.

Anyway, I have took a first pass at the Revolution levels up to 7-x.  I've added the obvious levels (eg. "just climb") to the list now, as well as various improvements here and there.

[mobius]

Could you post a brief explanation or screen cap of some of your solutions? Particularly 6-3 and 9-10? 

10-5 "Scale that Wall" 48/50 [not much change in the normal solution]

10-6 "Going in all Directions" 100% glitches 48/50 without.

There are two separate ways; 1 is to build over the top. The other is to build up from the bottom and “build through” the thin platform [using the same glitch present in earlier lemmings games].   I can’t remember this exactly but; You have just enough builders I think to build up from the bottom and get the lemmings out by building over the blocker [for a glitch free solution]. OR you can go for 100% and go over the top and free the blocker with a builder. (I might have that reversed).

10-8 “Time is of the Essence” 100% with glitch.
[There are numerous ways for this one.]
10-10 “Reduce and Simmer” 100% no glitches

set RR to 1 then have first lemming build 2 or 3 steps then block. Wait for the weasel to go by then have one build over the blocker and build to the balloon. Once he’s done bash the steps to free the blocker.
I’ve tried saving 100% no glitches and keeping the RR at 99 but to no avail yet.

[ccexplore]

Could you post a brief explanation or screen cap of some of your solutions? Particularly 6-3 and 9-10? 

6-3 is pretty easy when you realize there's a shortcut.  See zipped screenshot and details below.

As the screenshot shows, you can build up to get up that steel, and another climber doing some more building completes the path over the 2nd steel wall, for a short way around.

In order to not lose any more lemmings besides the blocker, set RR to 1, and let the 5th lemming out floater, 6th lemming out the climber, and 7th lemming out air-bash to delay himself.  This ensures no lemming will die of fatal fall while the long bridge is still in progress.

As for 9-10, you reported that one.

[Clam]

Frost 3 improved to 100%.

[ccexplore]

Blizzard 1 undamaged 100%, using a glitch w/ the blocker.  Rather tricky, using up all skills and most of the time limit.

[ccexplore]

Wild 3 improved to 100%.

[ccexplore]

Back to Revolution, I've completed all of 8-x except for 8-10 [edit: 8-10 also completed], and got the following results/improvements.  Screenshots attached.

8-2 100% (glitch): see the solution I posted here a while back.

8-7 improved to 100% (still glitch): by refining on mobius's solution, as follows:

- For the trailblazer, instead of blocking and then bomber-reset (using up a bomber in the process that we need elsewhere), just air-bash 9 times to delay himself sufficiently to fall behind the baddies.  When using bomber-reset for surviving the fall, use a miner as the reset skill.

- For the rest of the crowd, set RR to 15, and set the 2nd lemming a blocker soon after it lands from the entrance (just not so soon that the following lemmings land on his head).  You may have to periodically tweak the RR between 14 and 15, but otherwise the crowd should be fairly compressed as a result.  Once the trailblazer finishes its job, free the blocker via bomber-reset (bash to reset), assigning bomber when the crowd is just turning around from the left wall.  If done right, the freed blocker will merge right into the compressed crowd after completing the air-bashing, and all 49 of them can get through the timed door.

- Because you don't need to build over the crowd-holding blocker, you can use this builder instead to get the trailblazer back to the exit, after he reaches the lever for the exit-path retractable floors.

8-8 100% using the "can't see me dig" glitch plus other ones:

After "invisibly digging" along that edge between steel and normal terrain (using up 4 diggers), let one lemming go and block the rest.  The trailblazer will air-bash 2-3 times to get past the anti-grav that would've put him rightside-up.  Then when he turns right, immediately build once.  Wait for him to get back to the anti-grav, this time let him activate it.  The bridge he builds earlier while upside-down, will serve to turn him (and later the crowd) to face right before he falls down to the platform below.

Then as shown in screenshots, build a few steps then bash to stop building, to avoid activating the lever on the steel platform below.  Then build again from the very edge of the steel platform.  It will look like the bridge is just short of getting past the water, but it will turn out that the little remaining bit of water can be walked safely.  Now free the blocker (and release the crowd) with bomber-reset.

8-9 (glitch):

Assign 1st acid lemming climber.  2nd acid lemming block at the top of the terrain staircase before the acid pool.  3rd acid lemming, after turning around from the blocker, blocks right where the non-acid lemmings would land.  This lets the non-acid lemmings land on his head, which manages to shorten the fall enough to make it safe.

Once at least 1 non-acid lemming has gotten down safely, have him block, then free via bomber-reset the 2nd acid lemming who's blocking on the top step of the terrain staircase.  He will end up in the acid pool eventually activating the lever at the bottom.  The 1st acid lemming who's climber, have him build over the pit to turn around and activate the lever that drains the acid.

Finally, once all the non-acid lemmings have gotten down, free the other acid-lemming blocker via bomber-reset, to release him and the crowd to the exit.

[mobius]

11-1 Which Switch is Which? 100% reset glitch - 49/50 no glitch

11-2 When Two Tribes go to war. 100% reset glitch (screenshot attached)
EDIT: Just occured to me there may be a glitch free solution using the builders I have left.
Let me do it! Let me do it! 


I feel I should mention that a lot of the 100% solutions I’ve been reporting with glitches (particularly the reset bomber glitch) while most of those levels are possible within their regular save % range without glitches. Idk how you’re doing it in the other games but I suppose if you wanted to stress the idea of the challenge; glitch free then we should come up with some way of indicating these levels are still possible “undamaged” non-glitch. Maybe just make another indicator mark for that or something.
[versus: ‘x level’ being totally impossible; undamaged, without the need of a glitch. 9-6 for instance]

As for 9-10, you reported that one.

  I got the levels mixed up and thought you meant 9-9.

Also, good work on 'Take her up to warp speed'. I Didn't think to try the glitch repeatedly on thicker ground!

[ccexplore]

I feel I should mention that a lot of the 100% solutions I’ve been reporting with glitches (particularly the reset bomber glitch) while most of those levels are possible within their regular save % range without glitches. Idk how you’re doing it in the other games but I suppose if you wanted to stress the idea of the challenge; glitch free then we should come up with some way of indicating these levels are still possible “undamaged” non-glitch. Maybe just make another indicator mark for that or something.

I think 10-6 was the only result you reported where you explicitly say that glitches are only required for 100% solution (aka "glitch for 100%").  Let me know if there are other results like that.

The existing system actually already indicates such results, although admittedly I probably need a better explanation in the post.  When the asterisk is over the level itself, it means that you need glitches just to meet the challenge without worrying about 100%.  Whereas if the asterisk is only over the 100%, it means you need glitches only for the 100% result.  See how I notated your 10-6 result for example.

I will add a sentence or two in the OP to better explain this.

[Luis]

I was wondering do all those glitches work on the SNES version?

[mobius]

I just improved 11-2 to 100% without any glitches.

I just looked over the levels I reported and I don't think there are any others that I labeled incorrectly regarding the glitches.

there was something else I wanted to say and of course I forget...

I was wondering do all those glitches work on the SNES version?

If you mean what me and ccexplore were talking about we're talking about Lemmings Revolution. Unless there was a SNES version of Revolution I don't know about 
If you meant in the original; in general the glitches are varied between all the versions. I haven't looked at that version at all except on youtube and from that I gather SNES is very similar to Genesis.

[ccexplore]

I was wondering do all those glitches work on the SNES version?

A good number of glitches in DOS Lemmings do carry over to the SNES, including the sliding glitch, stuck climber glitch, blocker pushing lemmings into/through walls, steel destruction glitches, blocker canceling steel and traps, etc.  However, I don't have a definitive list at the moment as to exactly which glitches work and which doesn't.

There are also some very significant differences between SENS and DOS Lemmings:  direct drop doesn't work on SNES, you can't change release rate while game is paused on SNES, the timer runs out faster in SNES (I think 15 or 16 frames per game second) relative to DOS (17), etc.  There are also more subtle differences like how terrain is removed by miner, and how a bash stroke on SNES takes out one more column of pixels than DOS.

Because of these and other differences, I always insist on keeping separate records for each version of Lemmings, especially since with challenge solutions they can often be very sensitive to the subtlest of game-mechanics differences.

I think most of the DOS Lemmings results for undamaged should carry over to SNES.  If I have time I can take a look and see whether there are any differences worth noting on this thread.  I might also see if I can verify a few of the DOS glitch solutions on SNES.

[ccexplore]

Blizzard 13 improved to 100%.

================

Switching gears, I started looking into Lemmings 2.  I suspect it might be fruitful for this challenge given some of the obvious glitches that are very useful for the challenge (*cough* crawling *cough*).  Also, because that game doesn't really have the concept of minimum save requirement, I will simply list results in terms of maximum saved (out ot 60) without glitches, and maximum saved with glitches.

I started with the Classic tribe and got the following results (* means using glitches):

2: 59, 60*
3: 4
4: 2, 8*
6: 4, 8*
10: 2, 60*

Screenshots attached and details below:

The key glitch here is to lower yourself 3 pixels below the steel surface before starting to build across the gap from the left.  This is possible by first assigning digger.  This brings you down one pixel.  Then assign miner, and finally assign the builder only just one frame before the miner executes the second stroke (ie. when axe starts swinging down).  This brings you down 2 more pixels.  We are taking advantage of the digger and miner basically being forgiving about a small amount of steel while still moving the lemming downwards.  (So no, you can't try to use this glitch consecutively to get further down into the steel.)

So build two times from the left side, then climb and build to reach the ceiling route, and then once you're on the right side, build once.  With the left-side bridges lowered and stretched, it will just barely connect with the right-side bridge, so that your hero lemming doesn't fall off and drown after finishing the right-side bridge.  You need the remaining 2 builders to release the crowd.

The no-glitch solution is basically the same, except since you can't lower the left-side bridges, the two bridges don't quite connect and so your hero lemming dies.

Classic 3 is obviously just saving the climbers.  You just don't have enough skills to do any better, glitches or not.

You use up all 3 builders to establish the route to the exit.  Without glitches, you basically can only save the 2 climbers.  To save more, put a blocker exactly halfway of the / slope.  This sets up a one-way blocker that allows lemmings from the entrance to past through the blocker from the left, but can't escape the blocker from its right.  This will end up compressing the crowd into 8 distinct positions between the blocker and the steel wall.  With 60 lemmings, this means you have a compressed group of 8 lemmings.  You can then have the group block as they approach each of the 2 steel walls, triggering crawling for the remaining lemmings of the group.  This lets you save 8-2 = 6 more.

See the screenshots to find out where to build, in particular how to create a safe landing at the drop before the exit, using 2 builders + 1 digger to turn around, and 1 more builder to actually lower the fall.

Without glitches, once again you can basically only save the climbers.  With glitches, as seen in the screenshot, you can place a blocker near the wall to trigger nearby lemmings (squeezed between the blocker and the wall) to crawl.  On my try I got 4 crawlers, but I suspect 5 may be possible.

Without glitches you, once again, can only save the 2 climbers.  The glitch here is again using a blocker to trigger crawling, as seen in the screenshots.  Since the blocker has to be freed, you must place him on a builder's brick, exactly as positioned in the screenshots.  Furthermore, because DOS Lemmings 2 lack priority inversion and favors earlier lemmings instead of later ones, you need to be very careful so that when it comes time to free the blocker, your lemming can actually receive the skill assignment needed for that.

The way I did it is to visually "mark" the 1st lemming out by assigning him floater.  The 2nd lemming is the blocker.  I then carefully time when to build the bridge to lead everyone past the blocker, so that the 1st lemming out is the last one to go off the bridge after everyone else has started crawling.  1st lemming having priority over your blocker (2nd lemming), you can then easily assign 1st lemming digger to clear the build brick and free the blocker.  They both can then climb to exit.

[ccexplore]

I've just found a result not-yet-reported for one of the Xmas levels.   Not only is the solution a result for this challenge thread, but the very same solution also improves the reported result on 5 other existing challenge threads!  (Granted, some of the threads have a great deal of overlap.)  What's truly bizarre though, is how this solution hadn't been found or reported all this time until now.  It is pretty much within the ability of anyone here to find the solution, no glitches are used and no precision moves needed.  Even the concept behind it I'm sure has been seen in many other levels.

So, let's see who's the first person to figure out which level I'm talking about.

Ok, it's been about a week and interest has died down anyway. Time for the reveal.

As hinted by my wording in the post, the answer is:  Frost 6 "The Land of the Bizarre".  The improvement?  Somehow we all got fooled all this time into thinking the bomber must be used.  See attached Lemmix replay for why that's not true, and get ready for some forehead-slapping.

This new improvement also applies to the following 5 challenges:

What skills can't you live without?
What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
Fewest different skills levels can be beaten with

[mobius]

wow improvement to 6 challenges all at one time

in Revolution; 11-6 T is for Teamwork, possible 100% no glitches.

the right lemmings should build twice somewhere over the retractable floor so he will be trapped. The left one will walk past a small gap with a break-away floor, then build to turn around after the switch so he flips it, then build over the gap where the weasel will fall. Then let him fall into the steel area and build to the high switch to flip it then let him be trapped in that area.

Go back to the right one who is now fallen into the area next to the empty pool make him a climber (when he’s facing right) and he’ll go into the pool and fall through a hidden hole. He should fall through open doors and be going to the left toward the balloon. Build over the tiny crack. Let him go upside down then fall through the next crack. Build him near the wall to the right so he doesn’t climb it. He’ll turn around and eventually go into the teleport. From there make him build two times; to the exit wall and when he turns around toward the teleport again. (or you can build just enough so he stops and is able to climb to the exit).

The left lemming now has a free way to the exit. make him a climber and build over the switch gap near the weasel. When he goes through the other teleport build over the gap near the steps and now open door. The only thing left to do is build once to avoid the same climb in that area.

I'm beginning to think my game is glitchy for either of the following reasons;
A. Windows 7
B. Guy's patch
C. My messing around in attempt to get Guy's patch working and other attempted tinkering I was doing.

Mainly because I'm having glitches that I never experienced before when I played the game on my older computers. Really weird stuff like lemmings and weasels just vanishing, lemmings walking on air and other random things. That's why i didn't put this in the glitches thread.

[Clam]

Switching gears, I started looking into Lemmings 2.  I suspect it might be fruitful for this challenge given some of the obvious glitches that are very useful for the challenge (*cough* crawling *cough*).  Also, because that game doesn't really have the concept of minimum save requirement, I will simply list results in terms of maximum saved (out ot 60) without glitches, and maximum saved with glitches.

Does this mean we still score out of 60 for levels where you can't legitimately start with 60 (ie. use L2-Fix's Cheat Mode)? This would be my preference actually, to avoid confusion. Also, I might actually participate in the L2 challenge for once


Good find on Frost 6. I guess we all had a bizzare case of communal Lemmings-tunnel-vision

[ccexplore]

I'm beginning to think my game is glitchy for either of the following reasons;
A. Windows 7
B. Guy's patch
C. My messing around in attempt to get Guy's patch working and other attempted tinkering I was doing.

Mainly because I'm having glitches that I never experienced before when I played the game on my older computers. Really weird stuff like lemmings and weasels just vanishing, lemmings walking on air and other random things. That's why i didn't put this in the glitches thread.

It didn't seem that glitchy to me so far on my Win7 laptop with Guy's patch.  So it could be C, or your particular copy of the game, or something specific with your new computer?  Then again, I haven't really played the game long enough, especially since the time when I was actually into it back in December, I had to play it on XP since Guy's patch didn't exist yet.

===============================

Does this mean we still score out of 60 for levels where you can't legitimately start with 60 (ie. use L2-Fix's Cheat Mode)? This would be my preference actually, to avoid confusion. Also, I might actually participate in the L2 challenge for once

Hmm, that aspect of the scoring did occur to me, but I thought I didn't have to make a decision right away until the respective tribes have been hit.  But my memory was bad, and I forgot until while writing this post that, in addition to Polar 8, Classic 5 also has lose 1 as the current maximum-saved record.

So it turns out I'm already scoring out of 60 for every level, even though I didn't think I have to consider that yet.   So there you go.

But one thing I did intend to do from the outset is to add a footnote about this, no matter which way I decide.  Guess I need to do that now since it already matters.

[Clam]

Here's my attempt at the Beach Tribe (of course I'd go for that one first )

1: 60.
2: 2. Pour from the exact spot shown in the first pic, in this order: glue, glue, sand. Then either glue again or laser blaster (using basher here removes some terrain) to stall until the sand settles to get you within the splat height. Roper up the umbrella to the exit. This saves both jetpackers.
3: 5. Stack arrows as shown in the second pic, jump across to the arrows (jump as late as possible or the lemming will disappear off the top), glue across, then jump/dive over the small gap in the platform. This way you can save everyone you can get across the first pool - 3 kayakers and 2 hang gliders.
4: 1 (just the kayaker).
5: 60. Just archer + build at the start, and build + glue to the exit.
8: 60.

The rest (6, 7, 9 and 10): none.

[ccexplore]

Before I continue, let me post a few links to some topics and posts on the forums that will be very helpful for Lemmings 2 challenges:

frame-stepping Lemmings 2 in DOSBox
Lemmings 2 glitches
advanced fanning techniques (the post focused on ballooner, but some of the tips apply well to other fan-driven skills also)

====================

The rest (6, 7, 9 and 10): none.

I'm able to save 1 on 7, 9 and 10, although I ended up having to make use of a glitch on each one.

I need to head somewhere now, so I just attached zipped screenshots and have very brief descriptions below, which I may expand later if I have time.

A running jumper can, in certain specific cases, wind up a little inside the terrain as a result of the jump, which then triggers crawling to get him up the remaining small bits of height he can't otherwise make normally.

Use mortar explosions to fling a lemming up to the "flag" of the sandcastle terrain.  (Set up platformer platforms to create the targets for the mortar, so you won't damage level terrain.)  A roller can then get him up the very top tip of the castle, where you can stop the rolling by assigning him bazooka (which will not actually hit and destroy anything before going out of bounds).  The rest is pretty straightforward if a bit pixel-precise in places.  Finally, I still have to set up crawling (using the filler and my last platformer) to get up the giant clam, hence the solution using a glitch.

It's possible to get a Superlem past the handle of the bucket even though normally it would entail a lemming going off the top boundary of the level (because the highest part of the handle goes right up to the level's top boundary).  I believe what's happening is that the Superlem just moves too fast, and so from one frame to the next, it effectively "skips over" (which is why I see this as a glitch) the few terrain pixels of the handle at the top, and thus is able to get past the bucket that way.  The rest of the way is fairly standard Superlem navigation.

[Clam]

Now to my other favoured tribe (at least as far as level design), Egyptian. This isn't too exciting until the end .

1, 2, 5, 8, 9: none.
4: 1 (superlem).
6: 60.
7: 2 (superlem, plus one more with the remaining skills)
10: 60*, see spoiler and attached screenshots. (Haven't attempted glitch-free yet)

Glue to close up the starting area, then build a holding pit using a sand pourer near the left wall, and then a glue pourer from as close to the wall as possible. Use a few more sand pourers to make the pile bigger, you need this later (see 1st screenshot). Now wait until all the lemmings are out, and have the last lemming mortar on the sand pile (2nd screenshot) to fling and compress the group. If this works right, you should now have 59 lemmings compressed into the space of two. The next bit is a little tricky - you need to use a glue pourer at the right time so that the group gets caught in the alcove at the end, triggering a crawl. For this you need the pourer lemming slightly ahead of the group. One way to do this is to use a hopper, then quickly switch to glue pourer and assign this as soon as the hopper lands after a single hop. The pourer should be placed as in the 3rd screenshot (actually slightly further back, it didn't quite work here). The remaining lemmings can be freed using the hopper-in-wall glitch (see L2 glitches topic, reply #3).

[ccexplore]

Nice job with Egyptian 10 and Beach 3. I didn't find a single improvement in Egyptian, most of the levels of that tribe are just too unfriendly for this challenge, with tons of terrain either surrounding the entrance area or the exit area.

I'm going to put in a no-glitch result of 5 for now for Egyptian 10:

Once you reach the bottom-left exit of the pyramid, you can seal off the path to left level boundary with a bunch of sand pourers (about 5-7), and then a lemming is just a jump (using the shimmier as substitute jumper) and a rock climb away to get to the exit.  So all 5 rock climbers can be saved.

Right now it looks unlikely to me that you can do better than that for glitch-free, you'd need a bit more sand pourers than available to make a better no-glitch solution to work, I think.

Going back to Beach, I got a save-all, no-glitch solution for Beach 2.  You will find the advanced fanning techniques useful.

Use your jet packs to get a left-facing lemming to a particular part of the terrain sandcastle, then with some pixel-precision glue-pouring, you can actually use your 3 glues to reach all the way from the sandcastle to the beach umbrella before the exit.  Then just release the crowd with a roper.  The screenshots will show you all the details you need.

For the jet-packing, I recommend going the long way around, although the short way around is also possible but harder to achieve.

Beach 4 also looks like there's a possibility to save one or two more than just the kayaker, but it'll be tricky and requires dealing with the chain.  I'm going to take some rest now and tackle that some other time.

[Proxima]

If memory serves correctly, wasn't crawling deliberately put into the game, and therefore not a glitch?

[ccexplore]

If memory serves correctly, wasn't crawling deliberately put into the game, and therefore not a glitch?

Yeah, Mike Dailly did mention on the old old forums that it was programmed into the game because Lemmings get stuck too often, and characterized some of our "uses" of the behavior as more an abuse of intended behavior.

So I dunno, if people feel strongly about it I can adjust the results reporting accordingly.  I personally never care much for the glitch/no-glitch distinction because it's rather subjective, but it had come up enough places in various challenges and I can see why.  The kind of crawling being set up in L2 challenge solutions seems like the kind of thing that people who cares about glitch/no-glitch would be inclined to put into the former pile.

[ccexplore]

As I first reported on the "min skills for gold" topic, you can save all lemmings on Sports 6 using 1 roper, 1 platformer and a 3rd skill like jumper.  So that gives you an undamaged solution.  (And yes, it was actually for this challenge that gotten me to work out the solution.)

It uses crawling so currently I'm putting it onto the "glitch" side of the record.  I've put a "no glitch" record of 1 for now (the superlem), but actually there's a good chance you can save the 10 rock climbers as well, but I need to try that some other time later.

[Clam]

I've decided to change tack completely and take a look at Lemmings 3. I was going to post a wall of text explaining everything about this game, but then I found The Manual, so you can go look at that instead . Even if you have zero interest in the challenge, it's worth reading for the laughs

A few points specific to the challenge, feel free to dispute any of these:

• For the sake of consistency and comparability between levels, I'm using the default number (20) of lemmings to start each level. I've attached a save file that lets you play any level with 20 lemmings in the hatch (note: overwrites the 8th (lowermost) savegame, if you have one).
• Walking on disappearing platforms don't count as 'damage'. Not sure about other destruction of these at this stage.
• Damage from the nuke doesn't count, because AFAIK there isn't a way to quit without nuking - it auto-nukes on time up - and this just takes away from the potential of the challenge.

Bold means all lemmings saved, including bonus lemmings. Not on the list means I didn't save any .

L3 Classic
1: 20
2: 20
4: 20
5: 20
7: 20
9: 20
10: 20
13: 22
15: 23
16: 20
20: 15
21: 20
22: 20
23: 20
25: 21
27: 11
28: 20
29: 21

Notes/spoilers on individual levels below. Pics are in the attached zip. If anyone here actually has the game, I could make replays - the game has its own replay functionality (as I keep having to remind myself ).

13:

Block (1st pic) to merge the group. Walk the right blocker - it should merge in, and these 9 lemmings all go across to the right. Send the other lemming left to get the bricks, jump the gap and build over to where the others are. The next bit is tricky: use walkers to get the group merged as tightly as possible, except for one lemming very slightly behind - this lemming must be one of the two holding bricks. Use this lemming to block the others at the right (3rd pic). Make the other brick-holder build up one step (this pushes the grouped lemming up), then stop. Walk the blocker, and before it moves away (after which it can't get back in), have it build up to join the others (4th pic). Then simply build out, using the extra lemming on the platform above to help.

25: Attached screenshots show where to place the bricks. I didn't actually play the solution out as it's horribly tedious - you need to jump the lemmings individually over all the gaps, and move them along so they don't get stuck under the staircases. The only possible issue is running out of time, but that seems very unlikely to rule out this solution (with Lix's control features it'd be cake).

27: Probably improvable with the techniques used in level 13, but I didn't bother at this point.

28: Attached screenshot shows how to place the bricks on the left side. The leftmost part on the upper platform is for containing and then releasing the group.

[ccexplore]

I've updated results on the OP using your current rules.  Amazing how quickly we've gotten almost all games to have some results reported! (I'm looking at you, 3D Lemmings......)

Walking on disappearing platforms don't count as 'damage'. Not sure about other destruction of these at this stage.

I'm not even sure how I feel about mere walking, but I'm guessing it's impossible to avoid in too many levels.  At some point I may mark all such levels that require the disappearance of such platforms.

Damage from the nuke doesn't count, because AFAIK there isn't a way to quit without nuking - it auto-nukes on time up - and this just takes away from the potential of the challenge.

Seems fair enough.  Although with greater use of steel terrain in the game, the nuke may not be as damaging as it sounds.  Jumping a lemming can also help avoid collateral damage.  So I'm a little curious in how many levels are nuke damage actually unavoidable, even if it's too pedantic and tedious to require this detail from other people reporting results.

[ccexplore]

Walking on disappearing platforms don't count as 'damage'. Not sure about other destruction of these at this stage.

I'm not even sure how I feel about mere walking, but I'm guessing it's impossible to avoid in too many levels.  At some point I may mark all such levels that require the disappearance of such platforms.

I did a quick look and indeed, most levels with disappearing platforms (DP) practically throw your lemmings right into them from the start.  Classic 15 is the only one I found so far where it is possible to avoid disturbing them (and that's in great part because the DP usage there is extremely limited).

I have updated the OP and marked all the levels where some DPs must disappear (actually not sure about Classic 27 and 28 since I haven't played them normally myself, let alone for this challenge).  I've clarified the rule to allow DP to disappear by means of normally non-destructive actions only.  Most of the time it means walking, but at least on one level (Classic 16), unless I missed something, it is your unavoidable shimmying at the start that takes out a bunch of ceiling DPs to release the builder pick-ups.  That's still okay because shimmying normally does not destroy terrain.  Whereas if you take out DP via something like the spade or bomb tools, that's not allowed for now.  (Truthfully, I doubt that would make much difference anyhow, as typically DP are used in place of regular terrain precisely so they disappear under otherwise harmless actions.)

Relatedly, although I don't believe this is in contention (nor does it seem too restrictive, though I haven't played every level in L3 yet to say for sure), I'm not inclined to allow the mole destroying terrain either, as it's just too ridiculous to call the normal Egyptian 13 solution "undamaged".

[mobius]

Revolution has disappearing platforms too. I just accepted that that's part of the level so it doesn't count; however I'd like to try and find a way around it (level which include them)


11-9 Goonies 100%
11-11 Tanks a lot 100%
11-12 Two Laps final 100%
12-1 Green with Envy 100%* glitches
12-4 (no brainer)

edit: this refers to 12-1
One way is to invisibly dig next to the right side time door down to the area below that. (Be careful because it’s very easy to trigger the time door and kill lemmings). Then, down there, block them off but separate a acid lemming to go into the acid. You’ll notice this time door is glitchy; if lemmings fall through it from the right most side, it doesn’t count down. The acid lemming can climb to the right and close the door over the acid pool and the rest of the lemmings are free.

The other (theoretical) way I have (harder but slightly less glitchy) is to make the right (acid) entrance RR up to about 70 for 4 lemmings then back to 1. have 3 first lemmings come out build next to each other then the fourth one bashes then stops/builds to make a straight wall. Meanwhile make another lemming coming in a blocker very close to the wall. Next have yet another coming from the left build over the blocker. The idea is to make a tiny space to compact the lemmings so they can sneak through the time door.
While all this is happening the first 3 lemmings should be finished building. Let 1 go but turn around the rest (by building toward the time door; they’ll turn around) the two acid lemmings that turned around; have one bash toward the mass of lemmings but stop him so that there’s just 1 pixel wall blocking the lemmings.
Make a water lemming a climber to go right. After the 1 acid lemming and 1 water lemming goes to the right there should be “3” left on the door there.
On the route they continue on complete the simple tasks they have to do to make the way safe for any lemmings; then free the other lemmings by bashing through the thin wall you left for yourself. The crowd will sneaky past the time door and follow the long way to the balloon. Not sure how I’d try to save the last two lemmings; the blocker and the one bashing, he’d have to get stuck in the crowd somehow and that’s tricky. While bashing he becomes separated….

You could probably do the same procedure for the left side but since the lemmings are already facing right I did it this way. This way would use 1-less glitch then the above (no invisible digging)

[Clam]

Seems fair enough.  Although with greater use of steel terrain in the game, the nuke may not be as damaging as it sounds.  Jumping a lemming can also help avoid collateral damage.  So I'm a little curious in how many levels are nuke damage actually unavoidable, even if it's too pedantic and tedious to require this detail from other people reporting results.

In Classic, there's some unavoidable nuke damage on:
2 - bonus lems trapped in tiny cells
16 - bonus lem destroys at least a tiny bit of DP
25 - unsaveable bonus lem stands on destroyable terrain
28 - top bonus lem surrounded by destroyable terrain
29 - bonus lem destroys DP above him.

27 and 28 certainly require destruction of DP for this challenge, in fact on 28 it's unavoidable in any solution.

[ccexplore]

In Classic, there's some unavoidable nuke damage on:
2 - bonus lems trapped in tiny cells

Hmm, I seem to remember that when I tested that particular level, it turned out that at the moment when the bonus lems explode from the timeout auto-nuke, they were both standing in positions that appear to result in no explosion damage.  Perhaps I missed spotting the damage?

Your list is still rather shorter than expected though, so maybe I will notate them with some sort of symbol like I did for DPs.

um, nothing to see here...

[Clam]

In Classic, there's some unavoidable nuke damage on:
2 - bonus lems trapped in tiny cells

Hmm, I seem to remember that when I tested that particular level, it turned out that at the moment when the bonus lems explode from the timeout auto-nuke, they were both standing in positions that appear to result in no explosion damage.  Perhaps I missed spotting the damage?

It cleanly removes the bar that separates the two lemmings, and exactly nothing else. Maybe not the easiest thing to spot

[ccexplore]

Oh, right.

[Clam]

Doing other L2 tribes in a random order now. Here's Space:

1: 60
2: 60 (no damaging skills except exploder, which can be avoided)
3: 1
5: 60
6: 60 (the level has no damaging skills)
8: 1 (stack up to the top teleporter and use the chain to go through the wall)
9: 60 (again, there are no damaging skills)
10: 60 (fire the bazookas into steel and they destroy nothing )

[ccexplore]

Alright, finally gotten around to wrapping up Sports:

1: none
2: none
3: 60
4: 60
5: 1*
6: 11 (60*)
7: 6 (8*)
8: 2 (60*)
9: 1 (60*)
10: 60

Screenshots attached for 5, 8 and 9, with glitches.  5 and 9 are actually heavily based on existing challenge solutions.  Also notes below.  Sports 8 turned out to be quite a tough one, using up almost all skills and required setting up crawling twice, one time via additional glitches.

Need to go somewhere, so Sports 7 details will come later maybe.

As seen in screenshots, pour at a particular spot and you will trigger the pouring lemming to crawl up the side of the pit afterwards.

To trigger crawling to get up the steel block at the beginning, assign lemming the pole vaulter just immediately before he turns around at the steel block (ie. lemming still facing right).  This triggers a glitch whereby the lemming will end up slightly inside the block after immediately failing to pole-vault.  However, at this point his crawling won't get you anywhere.  Instead, wait for lemming to turn left inside the block, just before crawling starts, and assign him stomper then.  Because the game starts the crawling only when the lemming can't walk for 2 consecutive frames, this otherwise useless (and undamaging due to all the steel) stomping will tweak things so that when lemming finally starts to crawl, it will be successful bringing him up the top of the steel block, and facing right.

The rest is shown in the screenshots, with crawling being used in an obvious place.

A single well-aimed roper at the start will create a crawling path to the terrain overhead.  However the aim is a little unintuitive.  You are shooting for the corner, but you need to purposely put the mouse cursor a bit short of the actual target spot.  Doing so will cause the rope anchor to basically rotate slightly between the time it overshoots the mouse cursor and reaches the corner location, and only with that do you get the required crawling setup.  See screenshots.

[mobius]

11-3 The Diving Board 99/100 with reset glitch. 98/100 (required) without.
99 is the max with no damage.

I think it's possible to get 99 with no glitches. I've tried unsuccessfully to use just 2 builders at the normal lemmings start area to get to the switch in time for the water lemmings to get to the pool without having to block them off. (thus not having to use a reset glitch). One blocker on the right side of the water lemmings entrance can be freed by a build/bash. I use the final 4th builder to stall a water lemming.
It comes sooo close though. Irritatingly close.

12-2 Anger Love Hate. 49/50

Again, getting 100% no glitches is irritatingly close. You can use builders all the way and the lemming that goes to flip the switch can even climb up through the thin retractable floor. (idk if this is considered a glitch or not I mentioned it on "Going in all directions") I use 1 bomber to blow a safe hole through the builders steps for the rest of the lemmings.
It seems like there should be a way to get the worker to turn around so he can build to the other steps instead of using the bomber; after flipping the switch but I haven't figured a way yet. I'm still trying however.

[ccexplore]

I've confirmed that DOS Lemmings 2's Outdoor tribe can be completed undamaged.  (ie. no impossible levels in that tribe for this challenge)  In fact it's possible to do so without using any glitches or crawling.  (Note: for Outdoor 9, having a lemming get through one of those 4-pixel thick platforms by repeated building/"build-through" does not count as a glitch.  It looks natural enough and has been established behavior in Lemmings 1 as well.)  Moreover, every level is solvable undamaged even if you start the level with only 1 lemming, so you can literally go through the tribe level by level and still complete all of them.

No gold of course from this (not that it was ever expected), thanks to Outdoor 3 and 10 for example.

I'm a little busy today and will post results later this week (besides, for some levels I just saved one lemming even though you can clearly do better, so there's still plenty work left result-wise).

[Clam]

Next random L2 tribe: Medieval.

4: 2. One surfer, plus one more by stacking over the wall.
7: 1, going over the top with a combination of the construction skills + jumper.
9: 60.
10: 60. This isn't difficult, and may be fun to figure out on your own

Pole-vault the second lemming up. Make the first lemming rope up to the above platform, to a point just low enough so the crowd can't get up, and at as shallow an angle as possible (this makes it easier to release later). Float down and balloon across to the right area where the claw is. Glue once, then while on the glue bridge, stack for one brick (this turns the lem around) and bomb. To get out of the start area, stack for one brick at the top of the rope, then make the stacker pour before it turns around.

seriously I'm rolling dice to pick these tribes

[ccexplore]

I'm a little busy today and will post results later this week (besides, for some levels I just saved one lemming even though you can clearly do better, so there's still plenty work left result-wise).

Okay, here are my best results so far:

1: 60
2: 60
3: 14
4: 60
5: 60
6: 60
7: 60^(*?)
8: 1, 60*
9: 1, 60*
10: 5

Outdoor 8 and 9 uses crawling to save everyone.  For Outdoor 9 no-glitch, if builder able to get through the 4-pixel-thick platform is no-glitch, then I suspect the result should be 10, but I haven't bothered with that, so I just put the "1" result I had earlier this week for that level for now.

Outdoor 7 and 10 uses flinging physics.  In doing so we'd need to debate what aspects of it may be considered a glitch or not.  My current decision is as follows:

A) Flinging effectively "resetting" the fall distance of falling lemmings is not a glitch.  I feel this is same as a trampoline doing the same thing, or that you can assign floaters at the last moment and still have the lemming survive.  In a way, the main reason it feels strange in real-world physics (not that the game mechanis is all that realistic to start with) is because in real-world physics, most objects takes some time to reach terminal velocity, and that velocity is usually quite high.  This is of course completely opposite to how lemmings are depicted falling in the game.

B) Flinging drowning lemmings out of water (so they no longer drown) is not a glitch (although not featured in either Outdoor 7 or 10).  The game makes it clear that a drowning lemming is not certain doom until it truly goes underwater (and the lemmings counter goes down by 1).  In particular, the game actually forces you to assign skills like kayaker and surfer while the lemming is drowning.  So the fact that a lemming can go from drowning to not drowning is completely normal in Lemmings 2, so a fling having this ability is simply a logical outcome.

C) Flinging splatting lemmings, making them no longer splatting from fatal fall, is something I haven't decided yet whether is glitch or not.  Unlike the water case, the splatting case feels more like damage is being inflicted immediately, so it feels strange that a fling can somehow undo all that damage.  Indeed, the splat animation takes long enough that, you can create cases where you can hardly make out the lemming anymore visually, yet a fling will instantly undo all that disintegration, making it look like the lemming just reappears out of nowhere.

Outdoor 7 in particular, I find it not possible to avoid flinging splatting lemmings in order to save everyone.  You should still be able to save plenty though even if you discount the splatting ones.  Outdoor 10 barely works (as the attached screenshots show) without having to fling a splatting lemming.  If the whole idea of using fling to reset fall distance is not okay for you, then the results for Outdoor 7 and 10 would be 22 and 4.

My Outdoor 9 solution is basically adapted directly from my "6 skills for gold" solution posted a while back in one of the other L2 challenge threads.  So aside from the one screenshot depicting the undamaged solution, the rest are just screenshots from that old solution, and they depict exactly how to rope and shoot the arrow.

More details below:

Remember that with 2 lemmings close together, only 1 will be eaten by the frog allowing the other one to pass.  You can have a lemming flamethrow at nothing to put it close to the next lemming behind, and similarly with the platformer you have to assign before reaching the frog.  And of course the 2 jumpers and 1 hang glider each allows a lemming to pass the frog.  So a total of 14 lemmings.

The screenshots basically explain most of it.  To get a lemming out of the attractor's reach, just keep jumping him.  Later when releasing the crowd, first jump the attractor (who's now ahead of everyone), then jump him at the location with the low ceiling to make him go "oww" (and now behind everyone), then finally jump him while about halfway down the slope to merge him in with the crowd.

The reason you can't just fire the bazooka earlier to avoid flinging splatting lemmings, is because some of the lemmings higher in the fall, will get flung into overhead terrain and fail to make it to where we want them to go.  If you look at screenshot H you can see how close some of the lemmings are to getting snagged by terrain overhead.

First lemming make it runner, and he will eventually make it to the bottom of the level where he can platform over the gap.  Second lemming can hop to get to where we want it to be as depicted in screenshot A.  He then jump left to reach the steel structure with the water, and then bomb to fling 2 falling lemmings to safety.  The screenshots depict how close one of the lemming is to hitting ground before the flinging occurs.  If we bomb earlier, then the other lemming is too high to feel the explosion and won't get flung.

Finally, save one more lemming using the remaining platformer and jumper, as depicted in screenshot D.

It shouldn't be hard to work out how to save 4 lemmings if you are not allowed to use flinging to reset fall distances.

[ccexplore]

Switching gears for a moment, here's what I have so far on L3 Egyptian levels 1-15:

2:  20
4:  20
5:  21
10: 20
11: 20
12: 20
13: 11
14: 23

Nothing interesting so far, except maybe 14 which is still nothing more than thoughtful placement of build bricks (screenshot attached anyway).

[edit: 13's result is not reported accurately.  Under the wacky "reserve" system in L3, the result reported by the game at the end would actually be 11, even though you actually just send a single lemming to the exit]

[ccexplore]

I started reviewing L3's Classic tribe again, more thoroughly, and found two overlooked ones so far: 14 and 19:

14: 11
19: 22

I'm not even convinced I really need to put clues here, but what the heck:

Topmost lemming drops the bricks ("builder") to the bottom of the level, then blocks so he doesn't plunge to his death.  Bottom-most lemming picks up the suckers ("climber") and drops them at the bottom right corner for later use, then picks up the bricks.  Finally he heads right and builds a vertical stack to form a wall that he can then climb to reach the exit.

I think the attached screenshots pretty much explain everything.  Just take your time when building to get the 2 bonus lemmings out of the pit, making sure the one not building doesn't get trapped.

[ccexplore]

Finally found something more replay worthy in L3: Shadow 4 undamaged saving 21.

A movie is really too big this time, so I've attached the L3 replay file instead.  To use, create (if not already exist) a folder under the root folder of the game.  Name that folder the number of your load/save slot (1 thru .  Then copy the attached replay file into said folder.  In the game, after loading from the slot you picked for the folder and replay, the map screen should show an "R" for Shadow level 4 (ie. at the upper-right of the box where it displays the words "level 4"), indicating a replay exists for the level.  To run the replay, right-click instead of left-click on the level.  The level will start with "R" displayed at upper-right of screen indicating replay is active.  Now just sit back and watch the action unfolds.  Be sure to avoid fast-forward though as it may screw up the execution of the replay!

The two key tricks are:
1) a very tightly bunched group of lemmings (essentially compressed to the exact same spot, or something very close to that) can all pass through a disappearing platform before the platform is no longer walkable on.  I see this as simply a logical outcome of how the disappearing platforms work (ie. they start disappearing once a lemming steps on it, but the disappearance is not instantaneous).

2) As the replay shows, you can set the blocker at the location basically where the spades were, and it will cause the psycho buzzard to repeatedly try to snatch the blocker and fail.  While the bird's distracted you can easily get your lemmings to the exit without paying attention to the bird at all.  Then again, I guess you can use the kids mode and just not have the bird appear.

Other results in Shadow 1-10:

1: 20
2: 20
3: 11
4: 21
5: 12
8: 20
9: 22

[Clam]

Switching gears for a moment, here's what I have so far on L3 Egyptian levels 1-15:

...

Nothing interesting so far

Things didn't get much more interesting in 16-30 , although there was one close call.

18: 20 (unavoidable nuke damage)
23: 21 (unavoidable nuke damage)
27: 21 (damaged disappearing platforms (obviously!))
28: 20 (unavoidable nuke damage)
30: 11 (glitch: see the second bullet point in this post; also unavoidable nuke damage)

Annoying near-miss: 24. It looks like you can't quite squeeze a lemming into the alcove with the extra bricks, nor to the exit without them. In a way it's kind of a relief though, since saving the rest would have been a nightmare to execute

[Luis]

I haven't been here since 2015. I found out my undamaged thread is gone. I wanted to see the list of the impossible levels to beat. That was a really cool challenge. It brings back memories.

[ccexplore]

We tried to migrate over as many of existing threads on the forum as we can when we moved from lemmingsforums.com to lemmingsforums.net, but I do seem to remember there might have been some losses?

There's a chance though you may still be able to find a copy of your lost thread through the wayback machine aka http://www.archive.org (enter the old lemmingsforums.com URL into the box at the top labeled "wayback machine").  Give it a try and let us know.

[geoo]

The original thread is still there, just the old link broke: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1490.msg38600#msg38600

As far as I recall there were no losses during the migration.

[Luis]

Thanks. Unfortunately photobucket made it impossible to show pictures without paying them so the pictures in that thread are blocked. It ruined my posts.

[ccexplore]

As far as I recall there were no losses during the migration.

Yeah, I guess it was not from the migration but stuff that happened before.  Specifically I seem to recall due to an infamous outage incident on the old domain before we migrated, there were threads within some window of time which could not be recovered from the outage incident (like it was on some server or database that only Adam had the password to or something?)  Anyway, details are hazy in my mind but that was what I was thinking of in terms of threads that might have been lost to time.  In any case, irrelevant as you've shown that the specific thread Luis is looking for did get migrated over.

@Luis:  probably a long shot but the Wayback Machine might also have saved a copy of the pictures from Photobucket.  At least it's worth a try and see if it does?

[ccexplore]

Ok, so I tried the archive.org thing and it didn't work, no archived copies were saved.

Do you still remember you account login info on photobucket?  I'm wondering if you logged into your photobucket account (and assuming it still lets you do so without paying) maybe it'll at least let you download your own files to your own computer for free.  Then you can perhaps just edit the affected forum posts and include the pictures as attachments instead.  This current incarnation of the forum allows you to view picture attachments in-line (kind of) without having to download them.

[Luis]

All of my pictures are still saved in Photobucket and can be downloaded and uploaded to Imgur. That's a lot of pictures though because I also have this thread where I made PSP versions of other people's levels: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1415.msg36266#msg36266

It looks like there's a quick fix to this. There's an extension that people can download to view those blocked pictures. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IKpfgteV6M

[ccexplore]

Not everyone necessarily wants to use Chrome though, and besides there are some browsers and some platforms (think iOS) for which extensions are not currently supported.  So I'd call it more of a workaround than "a quick fix".

Also I can't help but wonder if Photobucket may eventually find some way around whatever trick the extension is using to bypass Photobucket's blocking.