Suggestions for a new Cheapo Copycat game

[DragonsLover]

What do you want more in Cheapo Copycat? Is there some things that you don't like in Cheapo Copycat and that you want to see in a new Cheapo Copycat? Post your comments here! Peter, please read this!

For me, I would like to put a blank square in each small window of the numbers in the toolboxes when there's no tools left like in the original Dos lemmings. That way, we can see easily which tools we have and which ones we haven't. Also, if we'll see 00 in the window of the numbers, we'll know that there's 100 tools or 200 tools and not 00!

Also, the editor is fine but if only it could have an UNDO command! That would be better!

Another thing that would be great: A different sound for each tool, like in Lemmings 2 or Lemmings 3D. E.g: You select Climbers and a voice says: Climbers! Same thing for each tools!

Also, instead of creating a .stt file, have the possibility to choose songs, musics and images directly in the editor or create a library of the elements. E.g: A folder containing all musics, a folder for graphics, another folder for sounds... Because it's bad to change a small little thing in a style to create a new one. This is the case of each Lemmus styles of Steaver where he only changed the songs by creating a new style... With my method, just choose the song you want for the level in the library and that's all, don't need to change any style file neither creating them! That way, too, we could create multiple lemmings styles. Tell me what you think about this!

Add drawing tools in the editor, like the selection-box to "cut" graphics and move them. Put a hand to "move" entirely the level. Change the size of the grid and put an universal one. Like in Dos lemmings, put a Z coordinate to tell if the graphic part is in front or in back of another one. Make the possibility to put graphic parts in black and transform them in erasers...

Finally, I hope that there'll be no blurry graphics anymore!!! And I hope too that the midis will be ok too (because for me, some instruments can play badly or can even play a higher note than the original one, it this happen to you sometimes?).

I guess that's all! It's your turn now!

[Proxima]

Oh, I have LOTS of ideas!!!

1. By far the most important! When closing the editor, it should give you the option to SAVE in case you've forgotten!!!

2. The editor should warn if you've selected a music that doesn't exist -- this will cause the game to crash.

3. I agree with a blank rather than 0 to show zero tools (and blank rather than 0 before a single digit). Perhaps it shouldn't allow more than 99 of a tool, since the game can't display this.....?

4. Allow multiple folders for levels. It gets annoying when you have lots of your own levels and have to browse through them every time you want to load one.......

5. The "Dirt" style should look like the Dirt style on the real game, which is much more attractive. Likewise with the Fire and Blue styles -- the exit and "water" on Cheapo Fire are really annoying.

6. One-way walls should be able to be exploded. (Sorry, this really annoys me... it ruined one of my best levels)

7. The editor should warn or even disallow level names beyond 42 characters (they won't display). And we want hyphens!

8. The thing for recording best and fastest solution to each level is dead neat -- why doesn't it work?

9. I hate to say this, but I'd rather get rid of some of the bugs that allow "trick" solutions. I don't enjoy levels that depend on tricks, and if they wouldn't have been possible in the original then I don't think they're fair.

10. There's a bug in the replay that will cause a bridge to be built a few pixels away from the correct place. (Is it just me being paranoid, or can The Parking Lot in L+2 only be solved by exploiting this?)

11. When release rate is changed, the change should only affect things from the entrance of the next Lemming (like on the original game).

12. The "poetry" offered on completion or failure of a level annoys me, especially the misuse of "it's" for "its". Level designers should be able to write their own completion/failure messages.

13. In fact, I don't like the background images of the completion/failure screen (on the standard styles) either.

14. I think a voice saying "Climbers" when you select climbers would be a bit annoying -- a different note of the scale for each tool, like on Mac Lemmings, would be groovy.

15. Could we allow sets to be "linked", like on the original where completing the last level of Fun brings up the first level of Tricky?

I think that's all at the moment...........

[guest]

What do you want more in Cheapo Copycat? Is there some things that you don't like in Cheapo Copycat and that you want to see in a new Cheapo Copycat? Post your comments here! Peter, please read this!

I need clarification.  Are you saying you're Peter Spada or otherwise have access to Cheapo's source code?  Or are you merely gathering suggestions to be passed off to Peter Spada for consideration?

Also, if we'll see 00 in the window of the numbers, we'll know that there's 100 tools or 200 tools and not 00

Wouldn't a better solution be to actually allow 3-digit number of tools to be displayed properly?  ::

And I hope too that the midis will be ok too (because for me, some instruments can play badly or can even play a higher note than the original one, it this happen to you sometimes?).

I have some knowledge about MIDIs and I can tell you the best Peter can do is to give you MIDIs that manage to work okay on your particular computer.  But there's really no good way to guarantee that a particular MIDI will sound fine on everyone's computer.   MIDI is really just an electronic sheet music notation; just as you'll get different results having a piece of music played by your local high school orchestra vs. the Vienna Philharmonic, how the MIDI comes out will depend heavily on your sound card (more technically, your computer's MIDI synthesizer).  I have in fact even encountered certain MIDI synthesizers that for certain instruments uses pitches off by an octave or so.

Of course, if the problems turn out to be in the actual programming in Cheapo that plays back MIDIs, that would be something Peter could fix.  But it would be hard to fix if it's something that only happens on your particular computer and not someone else's.

Frankly I'm not too crazy about the default set of music that comes with Cheapo anyway.  

[guest]

I need clarification. &#A0;Are you saying you're Peter Spada or otherwise have access to Cheapo's source code? &#A0;Or are you merely gathering suggestions to be passed off to Peter Spada for consideration?

Ok that was dumb, now that I finally see the part where DragonsLover said " Peter please read this!"  X_X

I think rather than counting on Peter to read this, someone should try to e-mail him directly with the suggestions once they have been gathered.  Isn't there an e-mail address mentioned somewhere in the docs that come with Cheapo?  (Of course, whether the e-mail address is still current is probably another matter altogether.)

[Essman]

No need to email me the list of suggestions. I'm looking over this list and will have an answer for every suggestion soon.

All I will say right now is that even though I have the source code for the two existing clone games, I will not be updating them for bug fixes (yes, there are lots of bugs and complaints). Instead I will release a new editor and game in the future when it is complete.

[Essman]

I never wanted to talk much about the new clone game I've been working on, just in case I take too long to finish it. But maybe talking about it a little will inspire me to work faster on it...

In reply to DragonsLover:

For me, I would like to put a blank square in each small window of the numbers in the toolboxes when there's no tools left like in the original Dos lemmings. That way, we can see easily which tools we have and which ones we haven't. Also, if we'll see 00 in the window of the numbers, we'll know that there's 100 tools or 200 tools and not 00!

I agree, the numbers will disappear when you can't use a tool.

Also, the editor is fine but if only it could have an UNDO command! That would be better!

The new editor will certainly have unlimited undo commands. Well, not unlimited, but a heck of a lot of undos (and redo).

Another thing that would be great: A different sound for each tool, like in Lemmings 2 or Lemmings 3D. E.g: You select Climbers and a voice says: Climbers! Same thing for each tools!

I'm not so sure about that one. You surely don't want to hear my voice whenever you click on a tool. I might ask for help making NEW sound effects in the future, because I'm not going to use anything from the lemmings games. That doesn't mean that you won't be able to control lemmings, somebody out there will build a lemming style.

Also, instead of creating a .stt file, have the possibility to choose songs, musics and images directly in the editor or create a library of the elements. E.g: A folder containing all musics, a folder for graphics, another folder for sounds... Because it's bad to change a small little thing in a style to create a new one. This is the case of each Lemmus styles of Steaver where he only changed the songs by creating a new style... With my method, just choose the song you want for the level in the library and that's all, don't need to change any style file neither creating them! That way, too, we could create multiple lemmings styles. Tell me what you think about this!

I have the editor practically complete and here's how styles work: You build a style completely in the level editor using dialogs (no more typing text files). And the level editor does not limit you to use a single style when making a level. You can associate a password with your styles so that nobody else can use them, or you can allow people to use them, but not modify them.
By the way, you won't have deal with making "metal boxes" anymore, and the one-way arrows actually animate.

Add drawing tools in the editor, like the selection-box to "cut" graphics and move them. Put a hand to "move" entirely the level. Change the size of the grid and put an universal one. Like in Dos lemmings, put a Z coordinate to tell if the graphic part is in front or in back of another one. Make the possibility to put graphic parts in black and transform them in erasers...

Cut and paste is there (just like it was in the existing game). As for transforming any graphic into an eraser, I never thought of that, but it is a good idea. I'll add it.

Finally, I hope that there'll be no blurry graphics anymore!!! And I hope too that the midis will be ok too (because for me, some instruments can play badly or can even play a higher note than the original one, it this happen to you sometimes?).

There are no more blurry graphics, and the midi should be better.

[Essman]

In reply to Ahribar\s many numbered comments (keep scrolling up to read the original comment, I\m not quoting them here).

1. Yes, the new editor asks you to save if you modified the level. And you can have multiple modified levels open at the same time.

2. Since the new editor and game do not use any code from the older game, any old bugs won\t exist anymore. Instead there will be new bugs since the code is new. Any bugs that still exist will be purely coincidental.

3. Right, no more than 99 of a tool.

4. There is no limitation for where level files can exist now. You can open them from anywhere on disk.

5. I\m not going to take graphics from the lemmings game. I\ll make my own style and rely on others to make the rest. As for the annoying graphics in the previous clone, I never claimed to be a fantastic graphic artist.

6. One-way walls cannot be exploded anymore.

7. Level names can now contain any standard keyboard symbols.

8. I got "caught" before I was able to finish the game, so my ideas for keeping high scores never got finished. But those features will probably exist in a new game.

9 and 10. Like I said before, old bugs won\t exist anymore.

11. I don\t know about this, because I don\t understand what is wrong.

12. Just ignore the "poetry".

13. There will be different background images, but I don\t think my art design skills have magically become better. You'll be able to select custom backgrounds though.

15. Good idea about linking sets of levels, I\ll add that.

[Proxima]

Hi, good to see you!

Hope the tone of my comments didn't offend you; I hadn't realised you were a member of the board. (That is, I knew Essman was, but didn't realise Essman and Peter were the same.)

Some replies to your replies:

5. You could always ask other people to help with the graphics. I really REALLY hate the exit on the Fire style.

6. I meant that one-way walls should be able to be exploded (because they can on the original game, and this is a clone, right?)

11. Same: what's "wrong" is a difference from the original game. I think the gameplay elements should be as close to the original as possible.

12. I can live with the poetry (though I hope you'll correct that "it's"), but it would still be nice to be able to write my own completion messages.

13. I think something really simple like a wallpaper-pattern type thing would work best; that wouldn't be too hard to do.

14. No comment? I thought this was a good idea......

And two more suggestions: a sketch for the highest step a lemming can ascend without a climber. This would have saved me so much time on many of my levels........

Also, if there isn't already, there should be a way, when editing a level, to remind yourself which style it was created with. And maybe to change a level from one style to another if the graphics of the two styles are the same.

[Essman]

5. You could always ask other people to help with the graphics. I really REALLY hate the exit on the Fire style.

Once I finish the programming I'll ask for help making new styles.

6. I meant that one-way walls should be able to be exploded (because they can on the original game, and this is a clone, right?)

Whatever is correct, that's how the game will work. I'll go back to the original games and see how the one-way arrows react to bombs. If the original game acted buggy, then I won't copy it. For example, if the one-way arrows explode if you stand next to them, but not when you stand on them, then that's a bug in their design.

11. Same: what's "wrong" is a difference from the original game. I think the gameplay elements should be as close to the original as possible.

Right, but if you don't exactly explain what this difference is, I won't know how to fix it.

12. I can live with the poetry (though I hope you'll correct that "it's"), but it would still be nice to be able to write my own completion messages.

Those same win/lose messages won't exist, and they will be customizable.

And two more suggestions: a sketch for the highest step a lemming can ascend without a climber. This would have saved me so much time on many of my levels........

That will be added.

Also, if there isn't already, there should be a way, when editing a level, to remind yourself which style it was created with. And maybe to change a level from one style to another if the graphics of the two styles are the same.

You will be able to switch between styles at will, no limitations. That doesn't mean that the entrances and exits will change to the new style. That just means that you can use objects and graphics from other styles.
The most recent style used when editing a level will be remembered, so the most common scenario of using a single style per level will work great.

[guest]

How about a sketch for the area taken out by a bomb explosion?

There is also a possible use for a miner's tunnel sketch, though it's not essential.

[guest]

8. I got "caught" before I was able to finish the game, so my ideas for keeping high scores never got finished. But those features will probably exist in a new game.

I thought it's interesting to note that a scoring formula for Lemmings 1 is already out there:  the Super Nintendo version of Lemmings (the one released by Sunsoft) calculate scores for your efforts on each level.  Although it doesn't total up the scores or even keep track of high scores, the scoring formula itself is pretty good I think:  

100 * percent saved (0 to 100) + 10 * number of skills (of any kind) left over.

Generally speaking, this pushes for you to get as many lemmings saved as possible, and then to push you for using as few skills as possible.  Technically the formula doesn't work complete that way:  in effect it allows you to trade in the lifes of 1% of Lemmings per 10 skills saved.  You can fix this by weighing the percent saved higher, although in typical levels, you still do much better by getting more Lemming saved rather than being frugal with skills, because of the general nature of the game (where a few does the work to save the rest).

The formula doesn't account for time (how fast you get all the Lemmings in).  If you want to use a formula that does, I'd suggest weighing it lower than percent saved and skills left over.

Anyway, just an idea.  There are many other ways to consider scoring.  You can for example keep each of the 3 statistics mentioned above separately.

[Proxima]

Whatever is correct, that's how the game will work. I'll go back to the original games and see how the one-way arrows react to bombs. If the original game acted buggy, then I won't copy it. For example, if the one-way arrows explode if you stand next to them, but not when you stand on them, then that's a bug in their design.

On 18 Taxing (Tribute to M C Escher) I solved it by building to the top of the one-way wall then blowing off the top-right corner to make the fall survivable. One of my created levels on the Mac, a clone of 8 Mayhem (Last one out is a rotten egg) with different skill allocation, uses this method to descend a very large one-way wall, using bombs both from above and from the side. As far as I know, on the Mac version at least, one-way walls can explode from any position.

If other versions of the original don't allow one-way walls to explode, maybe you should consider having two types of one-way wall, one explodable and one not.

Right, but if you don't exactly explain what this difference is, I won't know how to fix it.

I thought I had, but I probably wasn't being clear enough. In the original, if you increase the release rate from 1 to 99, the next lemming still comes out exactly two seconds after the one before, but as soon as he's out they flood out at 99.

[Proxima]

100 * percent saved (0 to 100) + 10 * number of skills (of any kind) left over.

Very interesting. Two other things that could be factored in are perfection (the scoring difference between 100% and 99% should be much greater than that between 99% and 98%) and difficulty (having lots of skills left over shouldn't score very highly if you're given 20 of each to begin with, as on most Fun levels).

This would require that the level designer specify how highly skills left over should count on a specific level -- and perhaps also what he considers the highest percentage it's possible to save. You'd have to have default values for these, of course, or already made levels wouldn't work on the new game.

[Proxima]

You will be able to switch between styles at will, no limitations. That doesn't mean that the entrances and exits will change to the new style. That just means that you can use objects and graphics from other styles.
The most recent style used when editing a level will be remembered, so the most common scenario of using a single style per level will work great.

Sounds excellent; how will this work with the musics, though? Will music data be entirely separate from style data? And how will this affect playing existing levels with the new game?

And the big question... I can't wait for this to be out; how long do you expect it to take?

[Essman]

If other versions of the original don't allow one-way walls to explode, maybe you should consider having two types of one-way wall, one explodable and one not.

I'll play around with the original game and figure it out. Having a choice might be good, regardless of what the original game did.

Very interesting. Two other things that could be factored in are perfection (the scoring difference between 100% and 99% should be much greater than that between 99% and 98%) and difficulty (having lots of skills left over shouldn't score very highly if you're given 20 of each to begin with, as on most Fun levels).

Currently I think there will be three scores per level:
1) Time left on the clock
2) Percent saved
3) A score based on a formula

This would require that the level designer specify how highly skills left over should count on a specific level -- and perhaps also what he considers the highest percentage it's possible to save. You'd have to have default values for these, of course, or already made levels wouldn't work on the new game.

There will be a default formula. I'm thinking of letting the level author type in a completely new formula for their levels.
For example: 10 * builders + 5 * blockers + 10 * saved + timeLeft

[Essman]

Sounds excellent; how will this work with the musics, though? Will music data be entirely separate from style data? And how will this affect playing existing levels with the new game?

Music is still part of a style, so playing a level may require loading many styles at the same time. The music may be in one style, the objects may be in a different style, the characters may be in a different style, and the tools may be in yet another style.
Yes, the tools are now part of styles and can be customized. The only bad thing is that it will be way too complex for the average person to be able to make new tools, but if they know C++ and can make a DLL, then it's possible.

And the big question... I can't wait for this to be out; how long do you expect it to take?

Depends on how many features I put in the game before its first release. I'll give out the level editor first to people who want to help create styles, and that won't be too long from now. I don't want to name any dates because I can't guarantee completion by any time, external events may happen that delay the game.

[guest]

As far as I know, on the Mac version at least, one-way walls can explode from any position.

I have checked that the same is true in the PC version and the SNES version.

But I did some more careful testing as well, which I think revealed why Peter had the confusion with one-way walls (below are the notes I pre-typed before making this post):

--------------------------

There is no inconsistency as far as one-way walls themselves are concerned.

But there is some "inconsistency" instead associated with steel areas.

One-way walls are always explodable.

However, there is a general interaction between steel areas and exploders.  Namely, the game takes a shortcut.  You might think that the game will actually mask out the exploder's bomb range area with the nearby steel areas, in order to prevent you from exploding steel.

Well, that's probably too slow to do for the PCs back then, so instead they did this (or at least that's what I believe they do):  when the exploder explodes, they check if it is standing on a steel area or not.  If yes, then they completely disable the taking out of terrain pixels when the exploder explodes.  On the other hand, if you are not standing on a steel area, all terrain pixels in the explosion area will be taken out, even those that are part of steel areas (the steel area status itself is still intact I think, just the corresponding terrain pixels are removed).

This leads to some remarkable effects.  Fire up Fun 11.

Try putting a stopper both on the right (next to the one-way wall's left side), and on the left (next to the vertical bar on the very left).  Now explode each stopper.  Notice that the exploders explode, but in both cases no terrain pixels whatsoever are taken out.  This shows that it is an effect of standing on a steel area, rather than any side effect of the one-way wall, since the left stopper is nowhere near the one-way wall, and yet his explosion is disabled just as the right one is.

But now, for more fun, try this:  make a lemming build just one step immediately left of the one-way wall.  Now put a stopper on top of that step.  Now explode it.  Because of that extra step, the stopper is no longer standing directly on steel, but instead got one pixel of vertical separation from the steel area.  That is enough to cause the game to apply the full destruction of the explosion to the surrounding area.  As a result, parts of the one-way wall got taken out, as well as even some of the steel-plate terrain piece.

So the question now is, should we fix the game mechanics so that terrain pixels in steel areas are properly protected from explosions (and conversely non-steel areas are not protected merely by having the exploder standing on steel), or should Cheapo employ the same shortcut PC Lemmings took (if it hasn't done so already), and accept all the resulting inconsistencies?

It is interesting to note that although it is conceptually a bug, it seems clear that the programmer intentionally decided to make things work the way it does, as I said probably for efficiency reasons.  So it's even debatable whether to really call it a programming "error" or not.

---------------------

If other versions of the original don't allow one-way walls to explode, maybe you should consider having two types of one-way wall, one explodable and one not.

Well, I've just seen that 2 other versions also behave identically as the Mac, so this is not an issue.  I'd definitely shy away from having multiple types of one-way walls, it just gets too confusing for the average player.

[Proxima]

Well, I've just seen that 2 other versions also behave identically as the Mac, so this is not an issue.  I'd definitely shy away from having multiple types of one-way walls, it just gets too confusing for the average player.

Sure; I just meant if other versions had non-explodable one-way walls, which I wasn't in a position to know about. If they don't, fine.

So the question now is, should we fix the game mechanics so that terrain pixels in steel areas are properly protected from explosions (and conversely non-steel areas are not protected merely by having the exploder standing on steel), or should Cheapo employ the same shortcut PC Lemmings took (if it hasn't done so already), and accept all the resulting inconsistencies?

It is interesting to note that although it is conceptually a bug, it seems clear that the programmer intentionally decided to make things work the way it does, as I said probably for efficiency reasons. &#A0;So it's even debatable whether to really call it a programming "error" or not.

Well, it's clearly some kind of error; the manual clearly states that steel is not explodable. More to the point, both players and level designers regard steel as non-explodable, and existing levels could be ruined if it's possible to explode steel by exploiting this bug.

You could argue that it would be interesting to make levels that depend on exploiting this bug. But, by its nature -- it depends on a fact that isn't at all obvious from the nature of the skills or the objects -- it would be distinctly unfair on the player to make him guess something like this, and not at all in the spirit of Lemmings.

I definitely think steel on the new Cheapo should be once-and-for-all unexplodable.

- - -

On another note, I had a couple more suggestions but I forgot what they were.

[namida]

(Is it just me being paranoid, or can The Parking Lot in L+2 only be solved by exploiting this?)

It's just you. The Parking Lot can be solved without any bugs being exploited. It's just a matter of timing.

[guest]

You could argue that it would be interesting to make levels that depend on exploiting this bug. But, by its nature -- it depends on a fact that isn't at all obvious from the nature of the skills or the objects -- it would be distinctly unfair on the player to make him guess something like this, and not at all in the spirit of Lemmings.

Actually, I think in the case of exploding steel, I believe I might've already seen one or two CustLemm levels with intended solutions that exploit this feature.

Of course, that hardly means we have to keep this legacy of programming laziness for Cheapo.  Although I won't go as far as to invoke the "spirit of Lemmings" in the argument...it means different things to different people anyway.  

[Proxima]

It's just you. The Parking Lot can be solved without any bugs being exploited. It's just a matter of timing.

Actually, I've just solved it! Sorry for doubting you.........

Although I won't go as far as to invoke the "spirit of Lemmings" in the argument...it means different things to different people anyway.  

I'm not sure. What I meant by it is clearly stated in the words on the scroll at the bottom of the main screen: "Remember: the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"

[piainp2]

10. There's a bug in the replay that will cause a bridge to be built a few pixels away from the correct place. (Is it just me being paranoid, or can The Parking Lot in L+2 only be solved by exploiting this?)

Going off topic a bit; I found The Parking Lot a piece of cake. I didn't use that 'bridge buiding a few pixels away trick'. One of my levels is also a cheapo remake of level 3 fun. so I guess I knew part of the solution already.

[Proxima]

One of my levels is also a cheapo remake of level 3 fun. so I guess I knew part of the solution already.

Nearly the same for me; one of my ResEdit levels is a clone of 3 Fun. But even if it hadn't been, the solution is completely obvious; it's just timing it right, as Steaver just said, that's hard.

[lemming_20]

Hi all!Do your remember me? I'm juanjo el Lemming, the creator of some styles for cheapo: Galaxy Lemmings, War Lemmings, Fantasy Lemmings, Machine Lemmings...
I haven't played lemmings for a long time now but I plan to return ^^
I have a question. Which will be the computer requeriments for the new game? I plan to create new styles and levels for it.  

[Essman]

I have a question. Which will be the computer requeriments for the new game? I plan to create new styles and levels for it.  

It's hard for me to judge what the real minimum requirements are because I develop the game on a 3Ghz machine with 1GB of RAM and 128MB 3D accelerated video card. When I first started developing the game, I had an 800Mhz computer with a 32MB 3D video card. So I'll call that the minimum requirements. Although my laptop has 16MB of video memory and it runs fine there.

I know that not everyone has the bucks to spend on fancy new computers, but the requirements are not beyond any hardware that could've been bought in the last few years.

So, minimum:
800Mhz CPU, 16-32MB 3D accelerated video card, 128MB of RAM.

The requirements might be less, but I have no way of testing that out yet. The most important piece is the video card since that has to render the whole screen at 30 or 60 frames per second and store all the graphics in video memory. The game isn't 3D, but a 3D accelerated card helps with graphic effects.

[guest]

So, minimum:
800Mhz CPU, 16-32MB 3D accelerated video card, 128MB of RAM.

The requirements might be less, but I have no way of testing that out yet. The most important piece is the video card since that has to render the whole screen at 30 or 60 frames per second and store all the graphics in video memory. The game isn't 3D, but a 3D accelerated card helps with graphic effects.

Wouldn't it be better if there's a way for the user to turn on/off graphics effects that requires 3D acceleration?  It wouldn't look as good with the effects turned off of course, but at least it wouldn't shut out those who still has old hardware.

Then again, only fairly old computers will run into this issue.  Anyone's who plays relatively recent computer games pretty much has to have a 3D accelerated card anyway.  

[Essman]

Wouldn't it be better if there's a way for the user to turn on/off graphics effects that requires 3D acceleration?  It wouldn't look as good with the effects turned off of course, but at least it wouldn't shut out those who still has old hardware.

Eh, I'm not too worried about it. When I say "effects" I really mean very simple things like zooming in/out, and transparency. That stuff is "free" when 3D acceleration is used to simulate 2D graphics.

Then again, only fairly old computers will run into this issue.  Anyone's who plays relatively recent computer games pretty much has to have a 3D accelerated card anyway.  

Agreed.

[DragonsLover]

So, minimum:
800Mhz CPU, 16-32MB 3D accelerated video card, 128MB of RAM.

What? My compu will not be enough powerful to run the new game! I have 600Mhz!

The requirements might be less, but I have no way of testing that out yet.

I hope you're right! I could test it because I guess that I've the less powerful computer.

[Adam]

What? My compu will not be enough powerful to run the new game! I have 600Mhz!


I hope you're right! I could test it because I guess that I've the less powerful computer.

Unfortunately he forgot to mention it will require Windows XP

[Essman]

Unfortunately he forgot to mention it will require Windows XP

Windows 2000, XP, or 2003 is required.

[DragonsLover]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! :-( X_X

[Essman]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! :-( X_X

I only say that because I have no way to test the game on a Windows 98 machine. I can't give it out, saying that it requires Windows 98, without testing it out. Maybe it will work, or maybe I just need to change a few function calls to get it working. I don't know because I haven't seen or used a Windows 98 machine in many years.

[Proxima]

Can't you distribute test copies to people such as myself who have 98 to test it for you? Hell, I didn't even know there was a Windows 2003 until you mentioned it just now..........

One more question/suggestion. How do I measure whether a fall from the initial window is survivable, i.e. what point of the window do I measure it from? And can this be made a bit more obvious in the next version?

[Essman]

Can't you distribute test copies to people such as myself who have 98 to test it for you? Hell, I didn't even know there was a Windows 2003 until you mentioned it just now..........

I don't want to give out copies before the coding is complete, when it's ready for "beta testing". This way there won't be unfinished copies floating around.

One more question/suggestion. How do I measure whether a fall from the initial window is survivable, i.e. what point of the window do I measure it from? And can this be made a bit more obvious in the next version?

In the current version, I guess all you can do is some trial and error. But that's a great idea for the next one. I'm going to make it draw a rectangle around each object's "hot spot". So there will be a rectangle for the exit, a point for the starting window, etc.

[Proxima]

I don't want to give out copies before the coding is complete, when it's ready for "beta testing". This way there won't be unfinished copies floating around.

That's what I meant, though -- at the beta testing stage.

[DragonsLover]

I only say that because I have no way to test the game on a Windows 98 machine. I can't give it out, saying that it requires Windows 98, without testing it out. Maybe it will work, or maybe I just need to change a few function calls to get it working. I don't know because I haven't seen or used a Windows 98 machine in many years.

I hope it will works! If not, luckely I will continue using the version you made... but some of you will be lucky using the new one and for me and Ahribar, we couldn't.

That's strange that a remake of a simple classical game that runs under a old 386 computer couldn't work for a Win95 or Win98 user!

Well.. I hope it will works!

[Essman]

That's strange that a remake of a simple classical game that runs under a old 386 computer couldn't work for a Win95 or Win98 user!

I was using this new program as an excuse to learn some new Windows programming concepts, rather than trying to make a game that everyone can use. Sorry about that.

[DragonsLover]

That's ok! :-(

[Proxima]

I have a few more suggestions.

-- A (customisable) congratulation screen on completion of a set, or a series of linked sets

-- The option to set access codes for levels in sets (this would be done in the Set Manager window, and could not apply to Level 1 of a set)

-- A sketch for the size of a lemming, so that when I'm sketching builders I know whether they'll hit their heads (or die in flame-throwers just above them)

-- Sounds such as the builder's three clicks should be heard whether he's on screen or not

-- If you try to change the number of lemmings to fewer than the number to save, the error message that comes up should prompt you to re-enter a number at least equal to the number to save (rather than assuming it's the number to save that you got wrong)

-- The timer should stop rigidly on 0; as it is if the lemmings are coming in late you can get a few more in by fast-forwarding, which is unfair (and would be VERY unfair if levels were created that required this)

-- A command to left-right or top-bottom flip an entire level (with two options: including or not including the directionality of windows)

-- If you decrease the width or height of a level, a warning should appear if part of the level will be lost

-- Bombers, when they've reached the stage of screwing their heads up about to explode, should still fall if another bomber takes away the ground under them while they're doing this. (This makes a huge difference when nuking a level with a large number of lemmings!)

-- probably more when I remember them

EDIT: I've remembered two more. I'd like a keyboard shortcut that gets me from playing a level directly to the title page without going via the failure screen. And after success on a level, whether alone or in a set, there should be the option to play it again if you want.

[guest]

-- If you try to change the number of lemmings to fewer than the number to save, the error message that comes up should prompt you to re-enter a number at least equal to the number to save (rather than assuming it's the number to save that you got wrong)

Rather than getting into the business of reading the user's mind, why not just say exactly what the error is?  ("error: number to save is more than total number of lemmings coming out")

[guest]

-- The timer should stop rigidly on 0; as it is if the lemmings are coming in late you can get a few more in by fast-forwarding, which is unfair (and would be VERY unfair if levels were created that required this)

If memory serves right, I think in the original lemming game, lemmings that are exiting while the the screen is fading out still counts (and the fading out occurs only after the timer hits 0).  But fast forwarding definitely should not change how many lemmings you can get in.

[Essman]

I have a few more suggestions.

Those are good suggestions and I'll probably implement them all, except for the hard-stop when the level timer hits 0. Like another post says, you can save lemmings as the level fades out. If I'm wrong, then fine, I'll make it right.

[Proxima]

Thanks -- and guest is right about the fade-out, but he's also right that being able to save more in fast-forward (because the fade-out encompasses the same amount of real time, hence more game time) _is_ a major problem. You should make it like on the real game, where the fade-out lasts for the same amount of game time in normal and fast-forward.

[piainp2]

here are a few of my suggestions (further down the list are the more "adventurous" ones)

-start the timer when the trapdoors are open NOT when the level begins

-have the ability to choose whether each set is open access (play any level in the set even if the previous levels haven't been beaten) or restricted access (only play the later levels if earlier levels have been beaten)

-have the choice wheather to have amount to save shown as a number or a percentage

-no replay glitches

-have the ability to play .dat and .lvl (lemedit) files

[DragonsLover]

-start the timer when the trapdoors are open NOT when the level begins

No, it's better to let it like normally. For all lemmings games, timer started when the level began.

-have the choice wheather to have amount to save shown as a number or a percentage

No! I prefer the number to save instead of a percentage. It's easier to see how many we have to save. If you put percentage: Imagine that you have to save 75% and then almost all lemmings are in the exit and you don't know how many died during the level. Then there's only 1 lemming left and you saved 72%. So, is that lemming counts for 1%, 2%, 3%? It depends on the number of lemmings in the level. And... &#A0;X_X
No, please, keep the number!

-no replay glitches

-have the ability to play .dat and .lvl (lemedit) files

No, wait! LemEdit levels aren't compatible for Cheapo. The reason why is that levels of LemEdit uses specific graphic set and sets all terrain pieces in coordonates on the level. I don't know, really don't know, if it would be compatible on Cheapo... but if it is, it could be really hard to do. What do you think about that Peter?

Oh! And here's another suggestion:

Imagine you have to save all lemmings and then 1 lemming died. That way, you know that you failed the level. Why not putting a small window with this text inside when the game look that there's not enough lemming to complete the level:

"You failed the level! There's not enough lemmings to complete the level!"

Then, right under, put 2 buttons:

"Nuke them all and restart" + "Continue anyway"

Also, in the options of the game, turn on/off this window! What do you think about this?

[Essman]

-have the ability to choose whether each set is open access (play any level in the set even if the previous levels haven't been beaten) or restricted access (only play the later levels if earlier levels have been beaten)

Okay. Your computer will remember which levels you've beaten. And each level can have a password to access it without completing the levels before it. All of this will be an option for the level designer (they can allow full access, password access, or only allow access upon completion of the previous level).

-no replay glitches

The replay glitches weren't added on purpose. There won't be any glitches this time.

-have the ability to play .dat and .lvl (lemedit) files

I don't think so.

[Essman]

I don't know, really don't know, if it would be compatible on Cheapo... but if it is, it could be really hard to do. What do you think about that Peter?

I'm not even going to try. Might be too hard, and I only want to support my own level format.

Imagine you have to save all lemmings and then 1 lemming died. That way, you know that you failed the level. Why not putting a small window with this text inside when the game look that there's not enough lemming to complete the level:

"You failed the level! There's not enough lemmings to complete the level!"

Then, right under, put 2 buttons:

"Nuke them all and restart" + "Continue anyway"

Also, in the options of the game, turn on/off this window! What do you think about this?

Sounds good to me. Something like this probably won't get added in the first release, but I'll be adding features as time goes on, and this will be on the wish list.

[Proxima]

About the percentages thing: one obvious problem with using percentages is that some people's Cheapo levels have more than 100 lemmings.

One of my ResEdit levels for the Mac had 120 lemmings, to save 1, and so of course this displayed as "To Save 0%"!!!

....which puzzled people who saved zero lemmings, which is also 0%, and were told they'd failed the level.

- - -

Three more suggestions.

Firstly, I'd like it if the names of the game and editor programs weren't so similar! The number of times I've opened the wrong one........

Secondly, how about being able to nominate certain styles as "favourites"? This would make it much easier to choose a style when creating a level, as my Styles folder is jam-packed with ones I'm never going to use, but which I have to keep to play others' levels.

Thirdly, since we now have right-way-up and upside-down lemmings, why not up or down one-way wall?

[Essman]

Firstly, I'd like it if the names of the game and editor programs weren't so similar! The number of times I've opened the wrong one........

The way I have it now is that there is only one executable. From there you can choose some options and decide to edit levels or play the game.

Secondly, how about being able to nominate certain styles as "favourites"? This would make it much easier to choose a style when creating a level, as my Styles folder is jam-packed with ones I'm never going to use, but which I have to keep to play others' levels.

Good idea. I'll make a list of the 8 most recently used styles.

Thirdly, since we now have right-way-up and upside-down lemmings, why not up or down one-way wall?

Already done. Here is the dialog used for customizing the one-way arrows:

[Proxima]

whoa....... that's COOL............

(i'd prefer 10 most recently used styles not 8, as there are exactly 10 styles that i use, but it's your call)  B)

[guest]

I'm not even going to try. Might be too hard, and I only want to support my own level format.

Sounds good to me. Something like this probably won't get added in the first release, but I'll be adding features as time goes on, and this will be on the wish list.

Can you at least make your own level format publicly documented?

Incidentally, how similar or dissimilar is Cheapo compared with PC Lemmings on quantitative aspects of game mechanics?  (For example things like the maximum safe-fall distance.)

[guest]

Imagine you have to save all lemmings and then 1 lemming died. That way, you know that you failed the level. Why not putting a small window with this text inside when the game look that there's not enough lemming to complete the level:

"You failed the level! There's not enough lemmings to complete the level!"

Then, right under, put 2 buttons:

"Nuke them all and restart" + "Continue anyway"

Also, in the options of the game, turn on/off this window! What do you think about this?

For me personally I think it would be annoying as hell and I would turn it off right away, if it doesn't default to off already.

When I played on PC Lemmings, if I know I'd restart I wouldn't even bother nuking (yeah it's cool at first but after a while it gets boring), I'll just press ESC to get out and get back into the level as quickly as I can.  Or if I do want to practice on later parts of the level or what not I might choose to just go on.

Having that window popup would just get in the way.  Unless the window shows up in a very out of place location so that I can ignore it.

[Essman]

Can you at least make your own level format publicly documented?

It shouldn't really matter what the file format is, the level editor is able to edit the binary files. What I would rather do is make an SDK with public interfaces for editing sets and levels. Then you don't have to mess with the messy mess in the binary files. You can write some code. If there is something that someone wants to do that just cannot be done with the SDK and they really need the binary format, then I'll spend the time to type up some documentation. But that shouldn't happen since the level editor will be using the exact same SDK to make the levels in the first place.

Incidentally, how similar or dissimilar is Cheapo compared with PC Lemmings on quantitative aspects of game mechanics?  (For example things like the maximum safe-fall distance.)

It was all based on my observations while playing the game, which is not perfect, but close.

[guest]

It shouldn't really matter what the file format is, the level editor is able to edit the binary files. What I would rather do is make an SDK with public interfaces for editing sets and levels. Then you don't have to mess with the messy mess in the binary files.

Oh that would be even better, for everyone involved.  

[guest]

I must be having too many cups of coffee today, but here are some actual suggestions my mind concocted:

1) This is why I said I have too many cups of coffee:  I was thinking of having an animatable exit, such that when there are no more lemmings left to save and you have saved at least the minimum, some animation with the exit itself would play.  For example, the exit could look like a spaceship, and then when there are no more lemmings left to save and you saved at least the minimum, an animation will play where, say, the spaceship launches itself up and off the screen.  Or something like that.

Yeah okay this is frivilous.  Time to cut down on caffeine.  

2) I thought the idea in the Tribes where the total number you saved gets carried over to the next level is an interesting concept.  It might be useful to allow people to create a series of levels that does that.  Although I must admit I haven't worked out how this will work in conjunction with the original where you need to save minimum numbers on each level.

[guest]

Actually, let's not complicate ourselves.  Keep the two systems separate.  Instead, since we already planned to allow a levelset to be either just a set or an actual series (where the levels need to be completed sequentially), simply allow, for series, the option for the level designer to do Lemmings 1 vs. Lemmings 2-style scoring.

Lemmings 1 style scoring would mean each level has its own total-out and number-to-save.

Lemmings 2 style scoring would mean for the entire series, there is 1 total-out number, and a number of different number-to-saves that defines your level of success on the series.  Scoring would then apply only to the entire series.

Just a thought.

[guest]

While we are on the subject of series, it would be nice if the level designer could specify, for a levelset that behaves as a series, to specify (ie. can customize) some intro and possibly ending screens.  The screens would be just a series of bitmaps.

When you select to play a series for the first time, after you select the only level available at that point (the first), you will see the intro slides, and then the game goes into the first level.  After that, you won't ever see the intro slides again unless the user explicitly request so (say, a button at the level selection screen).

And of course the ending slides would be displayed when you have completed the series for the first time.  Or maybe every time you finishes the last level.

The real reason I'm talking about this is actually related to the lemmings 1/lemmings 2 scoring option.  Having customizable intro screens potentially allow the level designer to communicate this kind of information with a creative/artistic flair instead of merely having a fixed, program-defined line of text saying "this series uses lemmings 2 scoring" or worse, forcing the player to open up the levelset in the editor to find out how scoring works for that series.

[Essman]

Thanks for the suggestions "guest". I have all suggestions written down in a list and I'll probably get them all done eventually, just not for the beta releases.

[Mr. K]

This looks great so far!!

Just one suggestion: Don't make the title screen odd like in Cheapo.

[DragonsLover]

Hey Peter, nice screenshot!  

Can you show more please? That way, it would be great to see what the game will look! If you won't, that's ok then!

Also, I see that you'll have a website soon?

[Essman]

Can you show more please? That way, it would be great to see what the game will look!

Um, sure, here are a couple screenshots of the editor:
Editor 1
Editor 2

Everything there is just for testing, those graphics and names are not final. But the screenshots show a couple features. The first one shows the object editor and animation editor. The second screenshot shows some test terrain, and how the editor can have multiple viewports of the level, each one being able to zoom in or out.
They both show the "graphic chooser" pane which is where the current style shows up. The graphic chooser is also used to edit the current style.

[DragonsLover]

That's... so...

COOOOL!!! B)

[piainp2]

My, this is a busy topic.  O_O

No, it's better to let it like normally. For all lemmings games, timer started when the level began.

Really? I never realised that before...

About the percentages thing: one obvious problem with using percentages is that some people's Cheapo levels have more than 100 lemmings.
 
One of my ResEdit levels for the Mac had 120 lemmings, to save 1, and so of course this displayed as "To Save 0%"!!!
 
....which puzzled people who saved zero lemmings, which is also 0%, and were told they'd failed the level.
 

Thats why I said "choice"

I understand that others might not like the percentage format,  but I DO.

I don't know, really don't know, if it would be compatible on Cheapo... but if it is, it could be really hard to do. What do you think about that Peter?  

I'm not even going to try. Might be too hard, and I only want to support my own level format.

Point taken     X_X

[guest]

One of my ResEdit levels for the Mac had 120 lemmings, to save 1, and so of course this displayed as "To Save 0%"!!!

Ok this is out of topic but, which original level was that based on?  It's hard to imagine you would ever need to sacrifice that many lemmings just to save 1...... O_O

Hmm wait...I can think of one.  That level that has 3 exits (2 to the left one above one below, a hidden one on the right).  I suppose if you were to bomb (!) your way to the exit it might take that many......

[Proxima]

The level was 1 Fun, "Just dig!"

To save 1 of 120 -- skills: three bombers, four blockers.

[guest]

The level was 1 Fun, "Just dig!"

To save 1 of 120 -- skills: three bombers, four blockers.

So you can actually save a lot more than "1" though right?  ::

One thing about this level is I think the PC and Mac version differs slightly, for example on the PC you can bomb thru with 3 bombers but it seems like they said on the Mac you have to use 4, but then according to what you said here maybe you can use 3 anyway even in the Mac version.

[Proxima]

No; the whole point of that level was that it does take 4.

And it's possible but VERY hard to save more than 1 -- the most I ever managed was 2.

[chaos_defrost]

No; the whole point of that level was that it does take 4.

And it's possible but VERY hard to save more than 1 -- the most I ever managed was 2.

I have a feeling that this level uses the same trick I know for Fun 6 to beat it with only one bomber, although I can usually save 47/50.

[guest]

Ah, never mind, I see what you're getting at.   B)  And I won't tell of course.  

[guest]

I have a feeling that this level uses the same trick I know for Fun 6 to beat it with only one bomber, although I can usually save 47/50.

That would make sense.  Actually I think I might've seen this somewhere in an official DMA levelset, but again I won't tell.

[guest]

although I can usually save 47/50.

Oh I missed this part, that I'll have to think about.  You do truly mean 47 saved and not just 3 died right?

[guest]

Sheesh, everything is out of order.  For the record, the first "ah I know what you're getting at" is a response to Ahbrir, before I saw Insane_Steve's post which managed to squeeze in before my own post.  Then the other two are responses to Insane_Steve's stuff.

Oh gosh, and apologies to Dragonslover for hijacking this thread on this.  I promise to stop right now.  

[Proxima]

Me too.

I'll just say that I'm pretty sure what you're thinking of, guest, is the right solution. I don't know what Insane Steve's trick is, but I've sent him a PM about it so we don't keep hijacking this thread.

Now, suggestions for the new Cheapo game.

One really important thing is that on the original game if you have several lemmings under the cursor, there's a way to choose whether a new skill is given to a lemming already doing something or to a walker. (At least one level -- 5 Havoc -- depends on this, so it's clearly intended.) I don't know if this is already on Cheapo? If it is, how do you do it?

[Essman]

One really important thing is that on the original game if you have several lemmings under the cursor, there's a way to choose whether a new skill is given to a lemming already doing something or to a walker. (At least one level -- 5 Havoc -- depends on this, so it's clearly intended.) I don't know if this is already on Cheapo? If it is, how do you do it?

When you click, priority is given to a lemming that is not walking. In fact, the highest priority is given to blockers. Having a climber or floater also raises that lemming's priority.

[Proxima]

Right... and that's the same as on the standard games... but what I'm saying is that the standard games also have a way to override this priority -- on the Mac, for instance, you hold down the option key as you click, and if there are two lemmings under the cursor and one of them is a walker, the walker will be selected, the opposite of what would normally happen.

[Essman]

Right... and that's the same as on the standard games... but what I'm saying is that the standard games also have a way to override this priority

Right-click on a lemming to put an arrow over his head, which gives him the highest priority. Do this on a walker ahead of time and you can follow him around.

[Proxima]

Ah...... now that's cool!

[Shvegait]

Yep, sounds like how they did it in Lemmings 3D. Great feature.

[DragonsLover]

Ahribar, actually in the current Cheapo Copycat game we're using, you can do the feature of right-click on a Lemming to give him the entire priority. Also, you can press the right of left arrow key on your keyboard to decided in which direction you want a skill to be made. For example, you can force a lemming to build to the right in the melee in any position you want.

[Proxima]

Yes, I know about the left-right arrow thing -- and very useful it is too! But there are times when you specifically want to select a walker rather than another lemming, and sometimes (although the example I cited, 5 Havoc, would not be one of them) there just isn't room to select the right lemming to give him the priority. The fact that it is possible to specifically select a walker on the original games is what makes me want to have the same feature in Cheapo, although the left-right and priority features are great things to have as well.

[okmot]

many of the ideas in this thread have already been implemented in CLONES .. but there are many more which i think are great and i plan to incorporate them into future versions of the game.  thanks for the tips!

rt
http://www.tomkorp.com

[DragonsLover]

Here are new suggestions:

1. It could be more challenging creating toolboxes inside the levels. I mean, imagine you start the level with only 1 basher. And you must use the basher to pass through a wall. Then the lemming could pick up a toolbox of 8 builders and could now create a bridge... Imagine all the possibilities for levels! You have to go to a place to get tools, then with these tools, you must go to another place for more tools... Just imagine!

2. Have the possibility to make "Lemmings missions"! I talked about that with Steaver and it could be cool to makes lemmings missions. I mean, get a different goal instead of save a number of lemmings. For example, you have to dig holes for hamsters, you have to build a new bridge for cars that want to pass over the water... Just goals like this... you know what I mean?

3. Put a multiplayer feature if able. It's not obligated, but it could be so great!

I guess that's all for now! Maybe more soon!

[Essman]

...imagine you start the level with only 1 basher. And you must use the basher to pass through a wall. Then the lemming could pick up a toolbox of 8 builders and could now create a bridge...

That's like Lemmings Chronicles (All New World Of Lemmings). I'll put this on the wish list and implement it after I finish the first version of the game. I think I like it better if the tool that is picked up (builder, etc.) can be used on any character rather than just the one that picked it up.

2. Have the possibility to make "Lemmings missions"!

Another good idea for the wish list. A basic mission type would be "make a path between two points", and that can be described by the level author using whatever text they like (like "build a bridge for cars").

3. Put a multiplayer feature if able. It's not obligated, but it could be so great!

I'm focusing on customization of the single player game rather than multiplayer.

[guest]

Another good idea for the wish list. A basic mission type would be "make a path between two points", and that can be described by the level author using whatever text they like (like "build a bridge for cars").

It's a good idea, but it sounds like either you'll need someone who can program, or else be stuck with a preset list of missions that Peter included in the program.  And I'm not still entirely sure how this truly adds to the game in a way that couldn't be done what Cheapo currently has.  Can someone give a very concrete example on this idea?

[guest]

It's a good idea, but it sounds like either you'll need someone who can program, or else be stuck with a preset list of missions that Peter included in the program. &#A0;And I'm not still entirely sure how this truly adds to the game in a way that couldn't be done what Cheapo currently has. &#A0;Can someone give a very concrete example on this idea?

Let me clarify what I'm asking.  If I were to program this in its currently vaguely-described form, the first questions I would start asking is:  how does the game check whether you accomplished the "mission"?  And how does the game progress from the starting state to a state that defines "mission accomplished"?

For example, someone mentioned about getting a car across a bridge.  So there would need to be this new "car" object, presumably, that would presumably be moving.  Does it always move on its own, or does a Lemming have to somehow "start" the car?  How does the moving car interact with Lemmings on its path?  How does it interact with other terrain and interactive objects (besides bridges and water, whose interaction with the car is more or less implied by the mission).  Can the player directly influence the car in some way, just like right now the player can directly influence Lemmings by assigning skills to them?  etc.

Similarly with the idea someone mentioned about hamsters.  The hamsters would again be a totally new class of objects.

So a slightly different take on the "mission" idea is, instead of inventing totally new classes of objects and have to deal with the nitty-gritty of defining their behaviors with respect to everything else in the game, perhaps we can use the idea of "colored Lemmings" instead.  The concept being that instead of having one type of Lemmings, a level can now have two or more types of Lemmings, of which only one type can be assigned skills to.  The other Lemming types will walk around and otherwise behave exactly the same as normal Lemmings, just that you can't assign them any skills.  Also, the exits in the level are also "colored" in such a way that a Lemming can only exit through exits of the same color as the Lemming itself.  (And entrances are colored as well.)

Together with the ability to define separate goals for each color of Lemmings (possibly 0% for certain colors, particularly those you can assign skills to), this method will seem to cover the kinds of missions people have mentioned so far, but without the need to program in new objects or to explain the new objects' behavior to the player.  It also builds infrastructure for providing multiplayer support in the future.  It is admittedly a little less snazzy, but if the style customization allows you to use totally different graphics for different "colors" of Lemmings, you can effectively get your second color of Lemmings look like cars or hamsters or whatever you want.

[Essman]

Let me clarify what I'm asking.  If I were to program this in its currently vaguely-described form, the first questions I would start asking is:  how does the game check whether you accomplished the "mission"?  And how does the game progress from the starting state to a state that defines "mission accomplished"?

Here's how I'm going to do it: When you build a level, one of the menu options will be to choose the "goal" that will trigger level completion (same thing for failure). By default I will include one trigger for successfully completing a level: Save a certain number of characters. I will build two failure triggers: Run out of time and kill every character.
In the future I, or someone else, can release plug-ins that give you new triggers (for success or failure). Then when you make a level, you can add a new completion trigger and remove the default triggers. Also, I'll let you remove my default failure triggers, so running out of time doesn't have to trigger failure.
The first version won't ship with missions, but at least it will be possible to add them in the future.

...perhaps we can use the idea of "colored Lemmings" instead.  The concept being that instead of having one type of Lemmings, a level can now have two or more types of Lemmings, of which only one type can be assigned skills to.  The other Lemming types will walk around and otherwise behave exactly the same as normal Lemmings, just that you can't assign them any skills.  Also, the exits in the level are also "colored" in such a way that a Lemming can only exit through exits of the same color as the Lemming itself.  (And entrances are colored as well.)

That's practically how the game will work. One difference is that the second type of "Lemming" will be able to have skills assigned to them, although not the same skills that apply to the normal "Lemmings". Each skill can only be assigned to one type of character. Just like each exit will only allow one type of character to exit, and each window will only release one type of character.

[DragonsLover]

For the toolboxes idea, the tools could be used to any lemmings. It's just when a lemming is touching a toolbox, it adds a amount of tools in the toolbar under the level and assign the new tools to any lemmings on the level, not just the one who take it.

[Proxima]

One more suggestion (actually just a slight peeve).

When shifting the level (or flipping it if that suggestion is incorporated) the location of the initial view window should move with the level. If the shift would move the initial view partly off the level, it should move as far as possible in the named direction.

[Essman]

One more suggestion (actually just a slight peeve).

When shifting the level (or flipping it if that suggestion is incorporated) the location of the initial view window should move with the level.

I noticed that quite a while ago and added everything you just mentioned.

[DragonsLover]

...perhaps we can use the idea of "colored Lemmings" instead.  The concept being that instead of having one type of Lemmings, a level can now have two or more types of Lemmings, of which only one type can be assigned skills to. The other Lemming types will walk around and otherwise behave exactly the same as normal Lemmings, just that you can't assign them any skills.  Also, the exits in the level are also "colored" in such a way that a Lemming can only exit through exits of the same color as the Lemming itself.  (And entrances are colored as well.)

Yeah! I thought about this and it's a good idea! It could be very challenging and could replace lemmings missions I mentionned above.

[DragonsLover]

I have more ideas:

1. It could be special to put weather effects in the levels. I mean, imagine a level with rain or snow, lightnings, a sun, a moon, stars... Well, some of them could be background images or, much better, animated background images.

2. During the game, it would be very appreciated to press a key to show all the statistics of the level instead of nuke all lemmings and come back to the level statistics screen. How many lemmings I must save? How many lemmings are on the level and how many left?

3. A Clones idea, but it requires much programmation: It's to show the "ghost" lemmings for the bomber skill. This could work using the right-click on a lemming to select him to put the arrow above his head. Then, by pressing a key, a ghost lemming could appear in front of him to show the place where the lemming will explode when giving him a bomber. Also, in the editor, if you won't that the player uses this feature in a level, just turn it off for the level using an option.

What do you think about all this?

[Proxima]

2. During the game, it would be very appreciated to press a key to show all the statistics of the level instead of nuke all lemmings and come back to the level statistics screen. How many lemmings I must save? How many lemmings are on the level and how many left?

I believe this is control-V or something like that.

- - -

One small thing.

Something is wrong with the priority system. There's one situation where I have a crowd of lemmings and one of them is bashing, and I want to make the basher into a blocker. By rights if I simply click, priority should go to the basher, but at the moment it doesn't.

[guest]

3. A Clones idea, but it requires much programmation: It's to show the "ghost" lemmings for the bomber skill. This could work using the right-click on a lemming to select him to put the arrow above his head. Then, by pressing a key, a ghost lemming could appear in front of him to show the place where the lemming will explode when giving him a bomber.

I never really figured out the key presses to use this in Clones, and moreover, I am bewildered as to how that actually works in Clones.  What really confuses me is, how accurate is its prediction?  For example, say someone is bashing somewhere in front of the bomber, for whatever reasons.  Would it actually take into account the fact that the wall is slowly moving away from the bomber in predict where the bomber winds up?  You can easily imagine more complicated setups.

Basically, to do this really accurately you will need to simulate the entire gamestate forward for 5 seconds.  It can certainly be done but it does sound somewhat tricky.  And I can see a number of level designers who would not want this feature enabled on their levels anyway.

I'll leave it to Essman to decide what to make of this.  I suppose we can always go for something less accurate but still potentially useful, such as simulating that selected single lemming only, assuming no changes whatsoever to the current terrain (including bridges being built).

[guest]

I hate the way replay works in the current version of Cheapo.

Or maybe that's only because I don't know how to properly use it, in which case what I really hate would be the utter lack of help files.

Anyhow, I'd think that there's gotta be a way for you to cancel replay when you restart a level.  Although I definitely appreciate the use of replay in certain situations (having gone thru a series of tricky timed bombings come to mind), there are plenty other cases where it's simply inapproriate for the game to replay my earlier, potentially completely flawed moves.  So, how do I cancel replay (aside from having to go back to the menu to select an entirely different level and then re-select the level I want again).

And while we are on the idea of replay, I think it would be neat in the future version of Cheapo to give the player the option to save successful solutions to a level.  It would practically be just like a replay feature, except it can be recalled on demand.  The really neat thing about this is that it allows for a very easy way for people to communicate about solutions to a level--just distribute the saved-solution file and playback the stored solution!

[Shvegait]

Simply clicking anywhere in the game area will abort replay mode.

Saveable replays sounds like a very cool idea indeed! But why limit it to successful solutions?

[Proxima]

On the game Spacestation Pheta, the author of a level has the option to save his solution as part of the level data -- so the player can replay it if he gets stuck! Ideal for those levels where it's IMPOSSIBLE to explain exactly where you need to do all the fiddly bits.

[okmot]

Greetings from the CLONES developers!  Just letting you know that I've added in the concept of 'Bonus Action' items which the clones can pick up by walking into.  You guys mentioned that in this thread and i remember that from the WORMS games also so i thought i'd include it in CLONES.  I think it will make multiplayer and singleplayer much more objective oriented and will really make designing levels more fun!  In multiplayer each group might have to 'race' to see who can get the extra bazooker actions first as this would be a big advantage for sabotage.

In reply to the post about the 'Ghost clone' ("I am bewildered as to how that actually works in Clones").  The answer is 'yes' the ghost clone takes into account everything that is happening around them including other clones, landscape changes, etc. which accurately shows you where they will be if you give them an explode command.  Basically (as you said) we are advancing the entire gamestate forward by 100 game ticks for that ghosted clone.  In effect, this is like adding 100 new clones which makes it fairly computationally intensive but a very cool effect  Some clone action ghosts require an 'undo' to the landscape as well.  Level designers can decide how much 'future juice' to give on a per-level basis so that if they don't want any ghosting they can set the juice to 0.
Also, you gain 'future juice' by saving clones so the more you save the more juice you get! (this can also be turned off)

I noticed you guys were debating the best way to give priority to lemmings.  In CLONES you can select the clone via leftclick which puts an arrow over their head and then give the action later by pressing the keyboard shortcut or clicking on the action button.  The keyboard is must faster and better for levels that require quick timing.  You can also use the wheelmouse to select clones to the left/right or use the arrow keys.  In addition, all clones very close to the selected clone are alpha blended out so you can see the selected clone very clearly.  This makes it very easy to always select the clone you want!

You've also mention the concept of saving solutions.. this was a feature in CLONES since day 1  Every level you play is automatically saved to the savegame folder.  We are also working on a feature where you can load up a savegame and then resume it from any point which would allow you to see if you could have won had you tried something different!
In fact, we have recently received a number of singleplayer solutions from fans who have completed the ultrahard levels.. it was very entertaining to watch them and several levels were solved in ways in which we did not intend!  We plan to post the best solutions to ultrahard levels on the website too.

We are working on new levels and a new release with the Bonus Actions so watch for it soon!

[guest]

I thought it might be useful to have a fast forward that automatically cancels itself when there's a bridge near completion (eg. the last 3 bricks being laid).  That way, I can fast forward bridge building without having to estimate when to cancel fast forward.

Why builders?  With other skills it's less critical since:  1) you can generally tell when the skill is near completion [eg. bashers stop bashing when there's nothing more to bash];  2) with other skills you're in less danger of losing a lemming [whereas when you build you often run the risk of the lemming falling to its death if you don't give it a builder again in time]

[Proxima]

The obvious problem with that is that if you have a long solution and want to replay most of it because you got the last bit slightly wrong, you're screwed if it stops after the first builder.

[DragonsLover]

I guess fast forward mode is enough like this! Don't need to cancels with the builder.

[guest]

Yeah, let's scrap that suggestion.  In fact, what we really need I guess is savepoints/checkpoints, which is basically just saved replays except the fast forward is instantaneous and stops at a specific point.

Another suggestion:

As I played through the 120 levels converted from the first Lemmings clone, it just occurred to me how the "enhanced" input handling in the current Cheapo has made moves possible that truly weren't possible (or at least much much harder) in the original Lemmings game or the first clone.  As a result, certain levels became slightly easier after the conversion process, where in places you can substitute a straightforward maneuver using the "enhanced" input handling, instead of needing to be a little more clever about how to do it without the enhanced input handling.

I'm specifically talking about things like the arrow-clicking, which has no analog whatsoever in the original Lemmings game or the first clone.  Even the right-clicking to single out a lemming as high priority is not really something you can do in the original Lemmings game or the first clone:  it's far more powerful than the mere capability to select a walker when there's already a skilled lemming in the cursor.

Now, I know that later Lemming games, starting from The Tribes, has analogous features, and I'm not suggesting to go back to the dark ages.  However, I think in some cases it might be useful if the level designer has the option to disable the more advanced input methods, forcing the use of only the input methods available from the original Lemmings game.

This is not so different from, say, someone's request to incorporate "future Lemmings" for predicting the result of timed bombings.  That request also mentioned that the feature should be made optional so it can be disabled by the level designer on a per-level basis.  I'm suggesting here that the more "advanced" input methods be put into the same category of features that can be disabled by the level designer.  Although I anticipate most level designers will choose to leave it enabled.

[guest]

1. It could be special to put weather effects in the levels. I mean, imagine a level with rain or snow, lightnings, a sun, a moon, stars... Well, some of them could be background images or, much better, animated background images.

Actually, I guess in a way this is already possible, but requiring a bit of work.  You can always create a custom animated object in your style for the rain/snow/lightning/sun/moon/stars etc.  It will be a harmless decoration object just like the "hint arrow" objects in the default styles.

...just a very very large decoration object that happens to cover the entire level (for the weather effects anyway).

[Proxima]

One thing I'd like to see is a fixed-width window with a monospace font for entering hints and intro screens. Then I don't have to keep back-and-forthing between editor and game to check how it will appear on the real thing.

[guest]

Following DragonsLover's suggestion about snow effects and animated background objects, here's a suggestion that truly cannot be done in the current version of Cheapo:

parallax scrolling backgrounds

You know, like the ones that are a hallmark of Super Nintendo games.  Where the background scrolls at a different speed from the foreground.  You find this in the SNES version of Lemmings 2 The Tribes for example.

I don't know how easy or hard it is to do this but I'd guest that it should be reasonably doable given you have reasonably good enough graphics card (it could well be that the requirements for Cheapo to run is already sufficient).  And the program can always turn it off (that is, have the background scroll at the same rate as the foreground) if it is not supportable in certain computers.

[namida]

How about support for MP3 music? Or at least the capability of adding plugins to support other music?

[DragonsLover]

New suggestion: Have the possibility to see the number of Lemmings that are under the cursor.

[Proxima]

Another suggestion: remove the thing on the title screen calling it a pathetic game. It ain't.

[namida]

How about fully customizable intro screens and toolbars and stuff? So you can move or even remove elements of it(such as for someone trying to copy Sega Master System style, taking out the level preview thing on the intro screen).

[Shvegait]

Just thought of an idea related to a level I made in LemEdit. It's related to the different colored lemmings/different colored exit idea, sort of. It would be cool if when you make an exit (could be a different kind of exit from the standard), you had the option of assigning a maximum # of lemmings that could go in the exit, and then it would "lock" and no more would be able to enter (a lock value of 0 lemmings = unlimited (or it could be fake exit)).

Suppose you have 80 lemmings, 4 exits. You could make each exit only able to hold 20 lemmings, forcing you to go to each of the different exits. Not that it would always have to be that rigid, you could make more than 4 exits but only require that you get to 4 of them. Just an idea.

[Essman]

It would be cool if when you make an exit (could be a different kind of exit from the standard), you had the option of assigning a maximum # of lemmings that could go in the exit, and then it would "lock" and no more would be able to enter (a lock value of 0 lemmings = unlimited (or it could be fake exit)).

Good idea. I'm still reading these suggestions and putting them on the wish list.

[Essman]

New suggestion: Have the possibility to see the number of Lemmings that are under the cursor.

The characters will not be lemmings. The game will, by amazing coincidence, just happen to play like lemmings though. I haven't actually made the characters yet, but it has to be my own idea, or at least an idea not owned by any company. If someone just happens to accidentally draw a bitmap of a character that is at max 24 pixels tall, then I'd be happy to look at it.

[DragonsLover]

Hee hee! Why not my little red dragons?

Here's another suggestion:

I the second Cheapo Copycat you made, the arrow that is above a Lemming while it's bashing or mining isn't placed properly when it's working. Sometimes, when we give another action (builder for example), the lemming doesn't start correctly at the right place, it starts a little bit before the right place. Compared this with the normal Lemmings game and Cheapo. If you look carefully to the arrow placed above his head when it's bashing in Cheapo, you'll see that the arrow appears on the lemmings when it's beginning to bash. While he's bashing, the arrow doesn't follow the lemming, it is jammed. It's only when the lemming restart to bash that the arrow changes place. Same thing for the miner. It would be nice that in the next Cheapo, the arrow "FOLLOW" the lemming correctly when it's working.

[guest]

Hee hee! Why not my little red dragons?

Haven't seen them yet.  Do they look good at a small size?  Can your dragons do all of climb, fall, block, build, bash, mine and dig in a manner that looks natural?

Actually, on the question of character graphics, I think it would be nice if the new graphics have as similar dimensions as possible to the original lemming character graphics.  After all, in gameplay things like how much the character can build before bumping into the ceiling, how close the character should get before starting to bash, etc., are all influenced by how big the character's graphics is, so I think it's best to keep the size similar if not exact to what it is right now.  (What is that size by the way?)

[Essman]

Actually, on the question of character graphics, I think it would be nice if the new graphics have as similar dimensions as possible to the original lemming character graphics. &#A0;After all, in gameplay things like how much the character can build before bumping into the ceiling, how close the character should get before starting to bash, etc., are all influenced by how big the character's graphics is, so I think it's best to keep the size similar if not exact to what it is right now. &#A0;(What is that size by the way?)

I totally agree and that is my plan. The height of a lemming is about 10 pixels. But that was at 320x200 resolution, so I want my characters to be 20 to 24 pixels tall. That size will look good at 640x480 or 800x600, and a little small at higher resolutions. But if someone chooses a really high resolution, they're probably doing it to see more on the screen anyway.

[guest]

I the second Cheapo Copycat you made, the arrow that is above a Lemming while it's bashing or mining isn't placed properly when it's working.

This is about more than just the arrow.

The arrow actually indicates the true position the game considers the lemming to be at, despite the fact that the animation indicates otherwise.  You can tell because for example when you switch the basher/miner to a builder, the builder will always start at where the arrow's pointing to, not where the basher/miner looks to be at on the screen.  Similarly with other skills.  Something similar also happens in PC Lemmings I think, although of course there the cursor's just a big square so you don't notice it.

I do have some reservation though whether the true position is in fact correct.  Most of the time it seems that the arrow should have jumped already if I were playing in PC lemmings, but in Cheapo it jumps much later.  I suggest Essman carefully check with the original Lemmings game to nail this down right.

[guest]

How about the width?  I'd expect that width to be about half the height but I don't know for sure.

Something like DragonsLover's red dragon I was a little skeptical because I couldn't see how a dragon could be drawn to look like it's walking in an upright position and looks good at the same time.  A normally-drawn dragon (like DragonsLover's user icon) would not have a width half that of its height.

[guest]

How about fully customizable intro screens and toolbars and stuff? So you can move or even remove elements of it(such as for someone trying to copy Sega Master System style, taking out the level preview thing on the intro screen).

Adding to that, it'd be nice to be able to customize an intro screen music (which currently doesn't exist) and to customize the font used for the text.

Oh, and of course, similar customizations should exist for the level win/lose screen.

[Essman]

How about the width? &#A0;I'd expect that width to be about half the height but I don't know for sure.

The width should be half the height.

[guest]

Another graphics-related suggestion.

Let's allow alpha transparencies on terrain and interactive object graphics (if not all graphics).  For example, water is a logical candidate for this.

Or imagine a winter-themed level.  You could now have an exit that's buried in ice, with the ice being semi-transparent terrain.  You'd have to dig down the ice to get to the exit, but the exit is not hidden since the transparency allows you to see it.

There are many other potential uses.  For example, you can make an interactive object that's just a large block of a solid color, but with a certain degree of transparency.  Then this interactive object can be overlaid onto selected parts of a level to give it a certain lighting tinge to certain areas of the level.  For example, maybe the level has an area with a large pool of lava, you can then use this tinge object to give a red tinge to that area, affecting everything including the lemmings.  Or maybe a certain part of a cave level can use a black, low-transparency overlay to create an effect of darkness.

[Conway]

Guest, that last suggestion could get VERY confusing. It could render certain areas completely dark, so you can't even see the lemmings.

 I guess I should have joined this discussion sooner! But anyway, a few thoughts:

 About multi-style levels: Wouldn't it be simpler just having separate files for the different elements? Example: Having a graphics set file, with just the terrain and the interactive objects, and a lemmings graphics library, with only information about the character animations, and a sound library, which defines a sound effects theme for events. When creating a level, you could simply load these files individually, rather than linking one element with another in a theme. Then, when loading the level, the game would only load the elements used in that level, and not every element associated with every theme used.

 For the ancient topic of the technicalities of on-way terrain: It should be fully penetrable, including by bombing, but only by lemmings walking or facing (if they're a blocker) in that direction.

 As for giving the position of a bomber five seconds before it explodes; this would be completely impossible without giving many false readings. For example, what if the lemming is in a tunnel being bashed? Will the game take into account the fact that in five seconds, the lemming will be in a newly created area? Or what if within those five seconds you stop the basher, or make him dig? Or what if you put a blocker right in front of the bomber, or make him a blocker? The game can't predict what you will do within those five seconds to alter the bomber's course. And some levels require a bit of skill in timing bombers well, so this feature, even when it's accurate, might spoil some levels. I'd certainly turn the feature off.

 About warning when you have too few lemmings to pass the level: Definitely not a message box, but maybe a small line of text in a corner of the screen, which can be turned off in the options screen/box.

 About missions: How would the level designer actually define when the mission is complete? It sounds like it would require a lot of programming. Wouldn't it be simpler just designing levels where you need to complete the 'mission' to save the lemmings?

 About skills you can pick up: Great idea! But I agree they should be available to all lemmings in that level. Otherwise, you\d need a way of distinguishing which skills are free-for-all and which belong to certain lemmings in the box at the bottom of the screen, and I can't imagine how this would work.

 About up and down one-way walls: Does that mean a down one-way wall can only be dug by a lemming the right way up, and an up one-way wall can only be dug by an upside-down lemming, but they can both be bashed in either direction?

 I also have a suggestion:

 This is a bit of a long-shot, and I'm not sure how easily it could be programmed. How about repeating levels, like in Lemmings Revolution? Not 3D, but where the level and all the lemmings repeat their pattern to infinity, so you can scroll a level with no edges. This can be applied horizontally or vertically, or both. And it can obviously be turned on or off by the level designer. This could also afford many possibilities.

 I may have more later.

[Essman]

About multi-style levels: Wouldn't it be simpler just having separate files for the different elements? Example: Having a graphics set file, with just the terrain and the interactive objects, and a lemmings graphics library, with only information about the character animations, and a sound library, which defines a sound effects theme for events.

The way you are describing it is one possible way that style files can be created. Also, all of those things can be included in a single style file. It's up to the style designer to decide how his content is distributed. I want to reduce the number of files that need to be distributed, so I'll probably put everything core to the game in a single style file (characters, sounds, music, tools, and graphics). Then terrain and objects will be grouped into their own separate style files. It's all very flexible.

One problem will be that you'll start playing a level and not have all of the style files that the level requires. I'm thinking of showing a dialog that refers the player to the websites that contain all of the missing style files. It would be possible to automatically download the missing styles, but I'm not sure if I want to do that yet. People know how to download things themselves.

When creating a level, you could simply load these files individually, rather than linking one element with another in a theme. Then, when loading the level, the game would only load the elements used in that level, and not every element associated with every theme used.

You're making assumptions about my implementation that are incorrect. If a level uses a single object from a style that contains 1000 objects, only that one object will be loaded. Just like if you were to play a level within a set of 30 levels. Only that one level is loaded, not all 30.

About up and down one-way walls: Does that mean a down one-way wall can only be dug by a lemming the right way up, and an up one-way wall can only be dug by an upside-down lemming, but they can both be bashed in either direction?

Yes, that sounds correct. Also, if a tool is created that shoots upward (like the laser beam in Tribes) then that can shoot through up one-way walls.

This is a bit of a long-shot, and I'm not sure how easily it could be programmed. How about repeating levels, like in Lemmings Revolution? Not 3D, but where the level and all the lemmings repeat their pattern to infinity, so you can scroll a level with no edges. This can be applied horizontally or vertically, or both. And it can obviously be turned on or off by the level designer. This could also afford many possibilities.

That's not very hard to program, it could be a future addition to the game.

[guest]

Guest, that last suggestion could get VERY confusing. It could render certain areas completely dark, so you can't even see the lemmings.

Well, you'll never get the level editor to prevent a moron from creating moronic levels. Obviously there would be a difference between adding a subtle tinge of darkness versus making everything totally invisible.

For the ancient topic of the technicalities of on-way terrain: It should be fully penetrable, including by bombing, but only by lemmings walking or facing (if they're a blocker) in that direction.

That is interesting but I don't think most people would've expected that bombing only works in one facing direction, since normally the bombing explosion is completely independent of which way the lemming faces (ie. only the position matters).  Maybe this could be yet another type of one-way wall, but again I have some reservations about making a proliferation of one-way walls.

As for giving the position of a bomber five seconds before it explodes; this would be completely impossible without giving many false readings.

I think the brief discussion on this boiled down to:  #1 with some effort the game can provide a completely accurate reading assuming of course that no additional input happens in between the 5 seconds; #2 the level designer should be able to disable the feature on their levels.

I do agree though that if you are going to make precisely timed bombing a feature in your level, you probably didn't intend to make things easier for the player to begin with.  And there's always replay to do essentially the same thing.  So overall this feature is probably not very useful.

About up and down one-way walls: Does that mean a down one-way wall can only be dug by a lemming the right way up, and an up one-way wall can only be dug by an upside-down lemming, but they can both be bashed in either direction?

I think so.  What is still missing however is how they interact with miners, as well as whether they can be bombed or not.

How about repeating levels, like in Lemmings Revolution? Not 3D, but where the level and all the lemmings repeat their pattern to infinity, so you can scroll a level with no edges. This can be applied horizontally or vertically, or both.

Oooh, I like this this is neat. B) You can now potentially have a wrap-around build bridge or miner tunnel (if you enable horizontal wraparound).

Verticall wraparound levels would be quite wacky and interesting, as lemmings falling off the bottom will show up on top.

[okmot]

Yeah, let's scrap that suggestion. &#A0;In fact, what we really need I guess is savepoints/checkpoints

CLONES has this feature.  We based it on the same module that handles the savegames for playback at a later time.  When used in checkpoint mode the playback is performed behind the scenes.

New suggestion: Have the possibility to see the number of Lemmings that are under the cursor.

CLONES also has this  A simple bit o programming but it really helps in multiplayer since you can decide to blow up a pocket of clones if there are more opponents clones than yours to be killed.

As for giving the position of a bomber five seconds before it explodes; this would be completely impossible without giving many false readings.

It depends what you mean by 'false'.  Of course the engine can only go on what it currently knows so the future of a walker is shown assuming that all other guys keep doing what they are doing.  This causes the 'future clone' in CLONES to change it's position in real time quite a bit if there is a lot of action going on nearby, which is the expected and desired behavior.  However, i find that the only times i use that feature are to time a walker or a flyer and usally there is nothing else going on around them to change their path.

I liked your 'repeating level' idea, i'm going to try to add it to the next build of CLONES.

rt
www.tomkorp.com

[guest]

&#A0;For the ancient topic of the technicalities of on-way terrain: It should be fully penetrable, including by bombing, but only by lemmings walking or facing (if they're a blocker) in that direction.

After some thought I started to see where you're getting at, but I'm afraid your approach is too simplistic for what you intuitively might have in mind.

I think what you're trying to do is to prevent a situation like this:  there's this large rectangular one-way block, say with arrows pointing left.  You send a bomber to the left edge of the block.  It explodes, and takes out a chunk of the block.

You cried, this isn't right.  If I can't bash the block from the left, why should an explosion from the left be able to take the same pixels out?

But here are some problems with using the facing direction as an attempt to fix this issue:

1) okay, so I re-timed my bomber so that he hits the left of the block first, turns around, and then immediately explodes.  Now the lemming is facing left, and so by your criteria his explosion will take out a chunk of the block.  And yet to the average player that is just bizarre:  it's basically the same explosion at the exact same place, involving exactly the same pixels, only that the lemming has turned around.

2) let's say I send a climber up to walk on the top of the block, and make an explosion happen up there.  Again, you now have the weird situation that simply due to the facing direction, the same lemming in the same position, with the explosion affecting exactly the same pixels, will have different outcomes.

3) But wait!  If we are to be 100% consistent in this, diggers should be affected too.  Now things get truly absurd:  the digger can only dig when he faces left when up on the block.

You say, no, diggers shouldn't be affected because digging occurs in a vertical direction, not horizontal.

But then what about the explosion at the top of the block?  Can you really say that the explosion occurs in any particular direction?  The player can also say this:  if I bomb at the same horizontal position multiple times, I effectively can bomb my way vertically down the block, which is just like digging vertically down.  If digging down does not depend on facing direction, why should bombing down does?

------------------------------

The real issue here is that, a truly consistent intuitive model of one-way walls in effect requires you to think in terms of forces.  Namely that when bashing/mining/digging/bombing removes a particular pixel, it is applying some force in some direction to the pixel in question.  For skills like bashing, mining and digging, they are strongly directional (with the direction tied to the lemming's facing direction, for the case of bashers and miners) and so you can assign each pixel the same direction of force, and therefore it's possible to say that either all pixels affected are removed, or none of them are.

But with bombers, the bomber's explosion intuitively is really applying different force vectors to different pixels.  In effect you can say the direction of the force is the arrow going from the center of the explosion to the pixel in question.  And so for some pixels, the arrow points in one direction, while for others the arrow will point in the totally opposite direction.

---------------------------------

This however does suggest one relatively simple way to handle explosions affecting one-way pixels.  Suppose we decided that any force vector who has a component (however small) of direction that is opposite the direction of the one-way arrow, then the pixel affected should not be removed.

What that statement boils down to is then this:  when the explosion occurs, the left half of the explosion area cannot take out one-way pixels pointing right, and the right half of the explosion area cannot take out one-way pixels pointing left.  This seems to me to be the best way to deal with this technicality without introducing problematic inconsistencies.  And it will solve the case of the bomber exploding a chunk of one-way wall from the wrong side, no matter which way the bomber faces when exploding.

----------------------------------

That said, I think we still need to think about what it means to introduce, in affect, a new type of one-way walls, since we already have one type from original Lemmings and another type from Cheapo.  Do we really want a third?  O_O

[guest]

Speaking of one-way walls, here's a truly bizarre idea for a new game element:

an arrow switch

It would be an interactive object that, when "activated" in some fashion by a lemming, will swap the arrow directions of all one-way walls, so left arrows becomes right and vice versa.

As for how to activate the switch:  one idea is to have it look like a push button coming out of the ground.  To activate, a miner has to hit the button with his hammer.

Of course for this to work well, the ground underneath and nearby the switch should probably be steel, although it's not a necessity.  One change though would be that when a lemming is on steel, it should be possible to assign him the miner skill if he's close enough to the switch button.

As an extension to this idea, we could allow one-way arrows to carry different colors, and have the arrow switches also be colored, so that one-way arrows of one color can only be affected by switches of the same color.

--------------------

Even if you think the one-way arrow switch idea stinks, I think it's at least interesting to consider the miner-activated switch/button object, with the button's effect being other things.  It gives a new life to the miner skill, and I think the idea of buttons activating things can be useful for the concept of creating goal-directed levels as someone else has mentioned earlier.

[Proxima]

I liked your discussion of the one-way walls, guest, but Conway is simply factually wrong. In the original Lemmings, a bomber can explode one-way wall no matter which way he is facing.

(I used this on a version I did of 8 Mayhem, which has a very high left-arrow wall. My version required ten climbers to be sent over the wall and bomb down the other side to make a safe all, so it's obvious that they can explode the wall even facing the "wrong" way.)

I love your switch idea though! Maybe not miner-activated; why not activated simply by a lemming walking past it? Or have other kinds of switch as well (gate-opening and gate-closing a la Prince of Persia, for instance) and have a general "switch-pressing" skill?

[Conway]

Okay, I was wrong about the 'only lemmings walking that direction' idea. I really like your idea, Guest, about only exploding half the terrain depending on the direction of the arrows. This seems the most logical solution, in fact, I was just about to suggest it before reading that part of your post.

 I also like the idea of the switch to change the direction of the arrows. Maybe have one type of switch to change a specific wall, and another type of change every one-way wall. It's also a better idea to simply trigger this switch by walking onto it rather than mining.

[guest]

It's also a better idea to simply trigger this switch by walking onto it rather than mining.

After some thoughts I agree.  Originally I didn't want to have the trigger activated simply by walking, because I was worried that the switch might hard to control when you have a crowd heading its way.  But for the arrow switch that probably doesn't matter (since it only affects where you can bash/mine, something you're likely to do with your trailblazer first before the crowd comes through), and for other types of switches where you might not want the switch to be activated inappropriately, the fact that walking can be a problem actually means you added a new puzzle element, namely that of (say) building bridges over the button to prevent the rest of the crowd from touching it.

[namida]

You could simply allow the level designer to choose how the switch is activated. Another idea could be lemmings falling onto it from a set height - and an option of whether floaters can activate it or not.

Also. I don't like that idea for the one-way walls. Maybe if you give the level designer the choice, again.

[Conway]

We shouldn't leave too many things for the level designer to choose, especially things like how one-way walls should work. When a player first previews a level before playing it, he doesn't want to have to try every interactive object to see how it will function if he's already familiar with the game. I for one like to be able to predict how a level will play out to some extent.

[DragonsLover]

Here's another suggestion: I thought about a new animation for the bomber skill when a lemming is climbing and have to explode. So, when a lemming is climber and have to explode, it could be nice to have the lemming to stop climbing and put his frontpaws on his head (like the normal bomber). What do you think about this idea?

[guest]

So, when a lemming is climber and have to explode, it could be nice to have the lemming to stop climbing and put his frontpaws on his head (like the normal bomber).

I'm confuse.  I thought it does that already.  When the climber is about to explode, it will stop climbing and "stand" at the wall with his arms up, just like when a walker is about to explode.  At least I think that's the case with Cheapo.  It certainly is the case with the original Lemmings game.

[DragonsLover]

Yeah, I haven't explain correctly!

I don't want to see the lemmings that is stand up in the air, this isn't good =8O ! The legs and feet must stay on the wall. Only the head and forepaws should be animated!

Also, for the fallers and floaters, when the number of the countdown would be to 1, it could be nice to hear the "oh no!" at this moment! It could be more realistic!

[Essman]

I don't want to see the lemmings that is stand up in the air, this isn't good =8O ! The legs and feet must stay on the wall. Only the head and forepaws should be animated!

I'm currently working on the character graphics, so I'll try to add that animation. It makes sense to have it.

By the way, I finished the level editor and added many of the suggestions from this thread. The coolest one is Undo/Redo, but I would've added that anyway. You can undo the previous 32 changes that you made to the level.

[Conway]

Sounds cool! Is there an estimated release date?

[guest]

Also, for the fallers and floaters, when the number of the countdown would be to 1, it could be nice to hear the "oh no!" at this moment! It could be more realistic!

That would be neat but would be impossible to do correctly.  The issue is that the game cannot always correctly predict in advance how long the lemmings would be falling for.  For example, imagine the floater is landing on a location where another lemming is digging, or where a builder lemming is about to reach.  And now consider the fact that I might cancel the digging or building at any point, so you might not be able to tell the final fall height until the last moment.

[guest]

Let me correct what I stated above.

You can of course always have your faller/floater say "Oh no" at a countdown of 1, as your suggestion literally suggests.

The point is that if you do that, sometimes your faller/floater could end up saying "Oh no" twice, and in general it is not possible for the game to correctly predict this situation and prevent it.  Alternatively, if you restrict your faller/floater to say "Oh no" just once, then you will get cases where the faller/floater landed and walked for a bit, but having already said "Oh no" at countdown=1, wouldn't be saying it when it actually raises his arms and explodes as a walking lemming normally does.

[Essman]

Sounds cool! Is there an estimated release date?

Not yet.

[DragonsLover]

Yeah guest, you're right!

[guest]

Minor feature request but useful:  can you make Cheapo support Windowed mode, as well as Full-Screen as it does now?

The obvious advantage of windowed mode is that it makes life easier when you want to switch back and forth between apps.  It's also less annoying when, for example, another app that's running in the background decides to pop something up (Windows update being a nice recent example).  I know not every video card supports it, and I found that many people tend to prefer full-screen modes in their games, so that's why I'm suggesting supporting both.

By windowed mode I of course don't mean the user can arbitrarily resize the window during the game.  Instead, maybe through a menu option the user can select a window size from a predefined list.  Most likely the window size will simply be the list of standard screen resolutions, like 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768, and 1280x1024.

Or maybe the game is currently fixed at 640x480 (as it seems to be the case).  Then you could just offer the option to have only windowed 640x480.  I have to admit that's probably a bit small for most people, but there are still occasions where it might be useful.

[Essman]

Minor feature request but useful: &#A0;can you make Cheapo support Windowed mode, as well as Full-Screen as it does now?

Yes, ever since I've started working on this new game, it has supported windowed mode and full screen mode. The level editor MUST be run in windowed mode, but the game can run either way, in many different resolutions.

[DragonsLover]

New suggestions:

1. In the editor, at the same time we could edit the levels, have the possibility to hear the music we chosen for each level with an option to turn on/off the music. Of course, for a new level, just play the music of the title screen.

2. Still in the editor, it is possible to hear musics. But what about sounds? It could be nice to have a window with a list of each sound and then have the possibility to hear each of them.

3. Still in the editor, it could be nice to hear sounds when activating objects (traps, trapdoors...).

4. Have a hand tool to move entirely the level around (landscape and objects).

[guest]

3. Still in the editor, it could be nice to hear sounds when activating objects (traps, trapdoors...).

Isn't this covered by suggestion #2?

[Essman]

1. In the editor, at the same time we could edit the levels, have the possibility to hear the music we chosen for each level with an option to turn on/off the music. Of course, for a new level, just play the music of the title screen.

Wouldn't that be more annoying than useful? Still, I'll put this on the wish list.

2. Still in the editor, it is possible to hear musics. But what about sounds? It could be nice to have a window with a list of each sound and then have the possibility to hear each of them.

I have added this functionality already.

3. Still in the editor, it could be nice to hear sounds when activating objects (traps, trapdoors...).

Okay, I'll add that.

4. Have a hand tool to move entirely the level around (landscape and objects).

I think this has been asked for already. So this is probably important and I'll add it. I already have a dialog that lets you shift the level around, but I guess a "hand tool" is easier to use than a dialog where you input pixel values.

[Essman]

The 'shift level' dialogue will still be available, won't it?

Yes.

Also, I've been thinking of an interesting feature involving moving terrain...
I realise this could be difficult to program, or even to define the rules of...
It could get very confusing, but also very interesting. What do you think?

Ignoring any problems with defining rules or programming: I think that the timing issues it would cause trying to solve levels would drive people insane.

[guest]

The 'shift level' dialogue will still be available, won't it?

I want to add my vote to have both available as Conway suggested.  That way I can use the handtool for coarse adjustments and the dialog for fine adjustments.  presumably the handtool will be an icon on the toolbar, while the dialog is accessible from the menu in the same place it currently is located.

Also, I've been thinking of an interesting feature involving moving terrain.<snip>

 &#A0;I realise this could be difficult to program, or even to define the rules of. For instance, if a lemming falls and is intersected by the side of a moving piece, will he then be encased in it?

If the terrain is already carrying the lemming around as he's walking, then logically, I would expect the terrain piece to actually "push" the lemming in the above situation.  That is, the lemming's fall trajectory gets shifted by the moving piece.

How about the case where a bridge being built on stationary ground gets into the way of the trajectory of the moving terrain?  Will it affect the moving terrain?  Or will be the bridge be affected instead?  Or both?  Or neither?

How about situations where the terrain piece moves partly out of bounds?  Or the terrain piece itself is within the screen, but the lemmings walking on top of it is no longer within the screen bounds?

What about intersection of terrain pieces themselves, be it moving against moving, or moving against stationary?  Especially regarding the behavior of excavation lemmings who happens to be at the boundary of intersection?

Of course, for a lot of these questions, I suppose there's always potentially an easy way out (sort of) involving things getting destroyed, be it the lemming, the bridge, etc.  

Or if one builds from a moving platform, will his bridge move as well? Or if a moving piece is metal, will its metal property be carried with it?

I would expect it to.

It could get very confusing, but also very interesting. What do you think?

Interesting, yes.  But I doubt we'll be seeing this in the next release.  Maybe the next next version if Essman feels up to it.  And someone better make sure they carefully work out all the situations this could lead to, so that this feature doesn't become a breeding ground for bugs/glitches.

[Conway]

The 'shift level' dialogue will still be available, won't it?

 Also, I've been thinking of an interesting feature involving moving terrain. When you add a terrain piece, you have the option to make a path of a few points for it to follow, either back and forth, or rotating if the path loops, and a speed which the designer can set. When a lemming walks or falls onto a moving surface, it then carries him but he still walks across it and treats it a normal terrain.

 I realise this could be difficult to program, or even to define the rules of. For instance, if a lemming falls and is intersected by the side of a moving piece, will he then be encased in it? Or if one builds from a moving platform, will his bridge move as well? Or if a moving piece is metal, will its metal property be carried with it? All these variables can be set if you have a moving area which contains the piece, and have everything - all terrain, objects and lemmings, moving together within that moving area.

 It could get very confusing, but also very interesting. What do you think?

[guest]

Ignoring any problems with defining rules or programming: I think that the timing issues it would cause trying to solve levels would drive people insane.

It has the potential to create some nasty timing-related puzzles, but like anything else, it can be used for good or for evil, so to speak.

Here's an example of moving terrain that may be interesting without being nasty:  take a simple, flat horizontal moving platform made of steel, with a vertical pole in the middle (also part of the moving platform) also made of steel.  Above it is a stationary platform from which the lemmings will fall onto the moving platform.

The moving platform is moving such that at certain times, the vertical pole will be to the right of the edge of the stationary platform, while at other times the pole will be to the right.

Notice what this means:  the moving platform effectively becomes a sort of "splitter" for a stream of lemmings (at least if the stream is not overly compressed), where given a stream of lemmings heading towards the edge of the stationary platform, after falling onto the moving platform and then off that, some will be facing left while others are facing right.

This could lead to interesting puzzle possibilities without necessarily requiring timing.  (Of course, it could also possibly lead to backroutes that involves timing.)

[guest]

The moving platform is moving such that at certain times, the vertical pole will be to the right of the edge of the stationary platform, while at other times the pole will be to the right.

In case the typo isn't obvious, that last word should be "left" not "right".

[Conway]

Yeah, I realise it could get nasty, but I suppose a level designer would only use moving pieces if he/she was willing to fully experiment with the level to notice any backroutes. Unless, of course, the level is the sort that's just for fun with no intended solution, just many possibilities.

[guest]

Here's one possible (but highly incomplete in its definition) way for the program to handle moving terrain, as a reference for future considerations:

1) moving terrain is organized through a logical object known as a container.  A container is a transparent frame (the frame itself is not visible though) that "holds" a set of terrain pieces (or using the current way to dealing with terrain, the actual terrain pixels) and also a set of interactive objects.  Containers also have a position within the level, a defined route it will execute throughout the level, as well as various parameters defining how the container will move through the route (eg. speed).  When the container moves, its contained elements move with them.  This includes the contained terrain pixels and interactive objects, and possibly one or more lemmings during game time.

Different containers can intersect each other, either as the initial level setup, or more likely at some point during game time.  There is a z-order associated with containers, so that when objects from different containers overlap, when painted on the screen one will obscure the other based on the container z-ordering.  Intersecting containers do not interfere each other's movements, just as lemmings move through each other.  Notice that the terrain pixels from different containers are kept track of independently, even when an intersection of containers occur.

2) All levels have at least one container, whose size spans the entire level area and its stationary.  This is the "default container" for holding terrain and interactive objects.

3) The tricky issue of course is how lemmings fit into this.  A scheme is needed to define when lemmings transfer from one container to another, and also how their positioning is affected when they are contained in a moving container.

The general idea though is that, as long as a lemming is always associated with exactly one container at any time, then the pixels resulting from builders are also associated with said container.  Excavation should result in pixels of the lemming's container from being removed, although it's still an open issue whether pixels from other containers might be removed as well, in situations where there are overlapping of terrain pixels from different containers.

This area still needs to be worked out, but one idea is that whenever the lemming is falling, he will be transferred to the default container.  Landing is defined to be when the lemming's current position is a terrain pixel from any container, at which point the the lemming is re-associated with the container.  If at that pixel position there are multiple pixels from different containers, the game chooises one container, say the way with the highest z-order.  (This is in line with how the game currently handles overlapping interactive object trigger areas.)

Anyhow, this is the tricky part that needs to be worked out with some thought, but hopefully this helps define a starting point for how to implement the moving terrain idea sometime in the future (probably not the near future, but anyhow).

It should be noted that from a level design point of view, I definitely do not recommend purposely creating situations where terrain pixels or even interactive object pixels from different containers overlap during the course of the game.  However, this is practically impossible to accurately check for at level-editor time (unless you're willing to be very restrictive), and given that the terrain pixels for a container is not fixed anyway (due to excavation and bridge building), in a sense it is truly impossible to check for.  This is why I believe for simplicity the game engine needs to consider situations where pixels from different containers might overlap.  The simplest approach would of course be to treat pixels from different containers as independent, but this needs to be carefully orchestrated with the behavior of the lemmings and the player's intuitive expectations.

[Conway]

That is quite a detailed plan, Guest. Most of it is what I was thinking, except for the part about builders. If the moving container only overlaps the terrain that moves initially, a builders steps wouldn't be contained in that moving container if the builder starts from the uppermost edge of the container, ie, the surface of the moving platform. Unless the game automatically extends the moving container to contain any builder's steps when they are built. Is this what you meant?

 Also, in the level editor, surely there would be the function to turn on one or all moving containers to see how they will interact.

 I believe also that when a moving terrain temporarily moves outside the confines of the level area, the terrain and objects should be preserved, and any lemmings taken with it should die, as they do anyway when they walk or fall outside a level.

 I know it will be complicated, Essman, but PLEASE consider it, even if it delays the release by a few weeks!

[Essman]

I know it will be complicated, Essman, but PLEASE consider it, even if it delays the release by a few weeks!

I liked that design description, it's pretty close to how I would implement the feature. But I'm not going to implement it in the first release of the game. While it may seem like it wouldn't take a long time to make, it would take me many months because I have very little free time.
I think what I need to do now is make a web page that describes what the level editor can do so you guys can get a feel for how it works. It'll basically be screenshots of the menus and dialogs with explanations.

[guest]

I think what I need to do now is make a web page that describes what the level editor can do so you guys can get a feel for how it works. It'll basically be screenshots of the menus and dialogs with explanations.

Sounds good.  Actually, I'd suggest that some version of that webpage (or even just a URL shortcut to it) eventually be included in the final product as some sort of help file.

[Essman]

Actually, I'd suggest that some version of that webpage (or even just a URL shortcut to it) eventually be included in the final product as some sort of help file.

But of course.

In case anybody still cares, I started a web site here:

http://spadapet.members.winisp.net/dimwits/

Most of the sections are empty, but I did fill in the part about the level editor's menus. So at least you can see screenshots of most of the dialogs in the editor.

[Conway]

Oooh! It looks so cool! B) I can't wait. Just a few things . . .

 I don't think it should be possible to use any bitmap as a background when designing a level, or it could lead to some very cheap tricks and crafty levels.

 And the level dimensions have to be a multiple of 16? That's not so bad (although it's still a step down from the current cheapo, where it uses multiples of 10). But why does this also apply to shifting the level?

 Also, maybe it would be a good idea to reduce the minimum level dimensions to something ridiculously small, like 32x32. This would be useful for designing wraparound levels, anyway. And maybe for non-wraparound levels smaller than the screen size, it could have a black border or something.

[guest]

&#A0;I don't think it should be possible to use any bitmap as a background when designing a level, or it could lead to some very cheap tricks and crafty levels.

Then what do you propose?  I'm sure no matter how extensive a set of backgrounds Essman provides someone will want to have their own, especially in conjunction with style editing.

Can't we just trust that people here are sensible?  

(Incidentally, parallax scrolling would be a good way to avoid having backgrounds that can be confused with things in the foreground......)

[Conway]

Well, in the current version of cheapo, the style designer can choose to have non-interactive objects (i.e. background) identical to the terrain pieces, but if the designer chose not to, the level designer couldn't add their own background, besides choosing a plain colour. But the preview indicates that it will be possible for the level designer to paste from the clipboard, either as terrain, or as background. When I first released my Sonic cheapo style, I was told that having some terrain identical to background could be used to make very sneaky levels, and I agree. So why not have it as it is in the current version, where the level designer can only use background from the style, and not paste it from the clipboard? (But, of course, still allow the pasting of terrain!)

 Also, what is parallax scrolling? If it's where the background scrolls at a slower rate to the terrain, to indicate that it is in fact behind the terrain and everything the lemmings can interact with, that would look very sleek and 3D-ish! And that way there would be no room for confusion. Except, of course, in non-wraparound levels no bigger than the screen size so you can't scroll. But other than that it sounds like a very good idea.

 One more thing: Guest, are you Essman?

[Essman]

And the level dimensions have to be a multiple of 16? That's not so bad (although it's still a step down from the current cheapo, where it uses multiples of 10).

16 pixels is equivalent to 8 pixels in the old game (since the minimum resolution has doubled). Some things process the level in chunks of 16x16 pixels, so the size has to be a multiple of 16.

But why does this also apply to shifting the level?

Actually, the level could be shifted in multiples of 8 rather than 16. I'll look into changing that.

Also, maybe it would be a good idea to reduce the minimum level dimensions to something ridiculously small, like 32x32. This would be useful for designing wraparound levels, anyway. And maybe for non-wraparound levels smaller than the screen size, it could have a black border or something.

I'll investigate the reduction of the minimum level size, if you really think having a canvas smaller than the screen will help create levels that you can't create with a 640x400 area.

[Conway]

Actually, the level could be shifted in multiples of 8 rather than 16. I'll look into changing that.

 Then why is it possible to shift levels in the current cheapo by individual pixels, and not in the new version?

 The reason I suggested changing the minimum level dimensions is primarily for wraparound levels, since their quirkiness would increase the smaller the level.

 And Essman, you didn't answer the question about Guest's identity.

[DragonsLover]

More suggestions:

1. Something cool for the "Nuke 'em all" feature: Make the screen flashing in red with an alarm sound instead of nothing...

2. What do you think about animated buttons like in Lemmings 95?

3. I though about to add more tools but not too much. I was looking tools in Lemmings 2 and some could be nice to add and some are so exagerated. Here are these it could be nice to add:

- Runner (where a lemming is faster than the other lemmings)
- Jumper (where the lemming could make a little jump to go higher in front of it)
- Swimmer (lemming that isn't affected by water and swim through)
- Laser Blaster (where the lemming uses a laser to dig a hole over his head, it's like a reversed digger)
- Stacker (could be interesting for climbers and diggers it's when a lemming is building a wall by piling up blocks)
- Platformer (where a lemming could build an horizontally platform over a hole)
- Slider (when a lemming is near a gap, it slides down safely)
- Rock Climber (same thing than a climber, but it is not necessary for the wall to have little holes or bumps for the lemming to fall)

And those where I'm unsure, it depends of you :

- Roller (where a lemming is faster and that falls diagonally without crashing, by rolling)
- Hopper (where a lemming is constantly making high jumps in front of it)
- Diver (where a lemming is diving in front of it)
- Shimmier (the lemming jumps and if it touches the ceiling, it starts to climb horizontally (you know what I mean))

All others are less interesting and some are similar to the normal tools like the Stomper. What do you think about these tools?

[Essman]

Then why is it possible to shift levels in the current cheapo by individual pixels, and not in the new version?

The new game was built from scratch and works much different (internally) than the previous clones. But since you REALLY want to know why the level can only be shifts in multiples of 8 pixels, here's why: You won't be able to see this, but there is an invisible grid of "wind" for every level. To save memory, I have one "pixel" of "wind" cover an area of 8x8 level pixels. It's impossible to shift the level by 2 pixels and have the wind grid get fixed up correctly. Objects in the level will depend on a consistent wind grid. Now, I'm not actually making objects that affect the wind, but it's an option for the future.

And Essman, you didn't answer the question about Guest's identity.

The guest is a user who chooses not to log in, I don't know who he or she is.

[guest]

Also, what is parallax scrolling? If it's where the background scrolls at a slower rate to the terrain

Exactly.  It's the type of scrolling you typically see in SNES platformers.

One more thing: Guest, are you Essman?

"Darn!  My cover is blown!"  X_X


Actually, no.  No idea why you'd think so.  Given that I made my own share of suggestions to the upcoming Cheapo several times, wouldn't it be kinda disturbing if all those suggestions actually came from Essman himself?    

[Conway]

Actually, no.  No idea why you'd think so.  Given that I made my own share of suggestions to the upcoming Cheapo several times, wouldn't it be kinda disturbing if all those suggestions actually came from Essman himself?    

 It would make sense. You might have posted suggestions as 'Guest' to get the reaction of other users before speaking about it as Essman himself, maybe for ideas you were uncertain of. I also thought it was strange that you were talking about the new game as if you were a co-designer, and making plans for features yourself. You might have also made suggestions as 'Guest' to encourage others to keep their suggestions coming in, and maybe even so people will think that more of the features have been suggested by other fans and less are your own ideas. Those are just a few possible reasons. Anyway, that's just what I thought . . .

 But yeah, parallax scrolling sounds cool! B) But I still think it's a bad idea to allow level designers to use any bitmap as a background. I also don't like the idea of other skills, at least not initially. If people want to program their own skills, fine, but I don't think it should feel too much like Tribes or even Clones.

[DragonsLover]

And what about my other suggestions?

Conway, why you disagree to add more skills? It could be nice to get more puzzles using new skills. Also, it could be nice to choose which skills you want the player to select for a level. For example, I created a level and I want to add these skills (always 8 ): Rock Climber, Floater, Blocker, Exploder, Platformer, Stacker, Swimmer and Basher for the player to use. I replaced: Climber, Builder, Digger and Miner. Imagine a level with these skills, you can have more possibilities to design levels. But I don't want to force you to agree, it's your opinion if you don't want these ones. I just wanted to tell you what do you think about these 8 new skills. Anyway...

[guest]

You won't be able to see this, but there is an invisible grid of "wind" for every level.

Interesting, is it preparation for wind-driven skills like the parachuter and ballooner in Tribes?

To save memory, I have one "pixel" of "wind" cover an area of 8x8 level pixels. It's impossible to shift the level by 2 pixels and have the wind grid get fixed up correctly. Objects in the level will depend on a consistent wind grid. Now, I'm not actually making objects that affect the wind, but it's an option for the future.

Perhaps if you can reprogram things so that for each level the level designer can choose to enable or disable the wind grid?  Then the restriction won't be an issue for those levels where the level designer chooses not to use wind in any form.  Just a thought.

Actually, can someone remind me what the level shifter actually does?  What is it shifted against?

[guest]

But I still think it's a bad idea to allow level designers to use any bitmap as a background.

Well, since currently you can create custom objects with the style editor anyway, and since you can also use any bitmap as part of the terrain, seems to me there's already plenty of other ways to create confusion that it hardly matters whether the background can be an arbitrary bitmap.  Also, isn't there currently already an option to mark objects as fake?

I also don't like the idea of other skills, at least not initially. If people want to program their own skills, fine, but I don't think it should feel too much like Tribes or even Clones.

Well, for the record I'm more in league with Dragonslover over additional skills.  After all, you don't have to use them in your levels if you don't like them.

Though Essman already mentioned here sometime ago that, the plan is to provide support for additional skills, but he won't be programming any himself.

[guest]

Actually, can someone remind me what the level shifter actually does? &#A0;What is it shifted against?

I think I got it.  The idea is that if you expand the size of the level, you can use the level shifter to shift the stuff you have right now so you can add new stuff to the level properly.

If that's the case though, then I don't see what's the big deal with not being able to shift an arbitrary amount of pixels.  Rarely is it unacceptable to have some blank unused spaces on either side of the level.  Actually, come to think of it, doesn't the current Cheapo only allows you to scroll as far as the where there are still terrain pixels or objects?  If dimwits also does that then it shouldn't matter that you can only shift in multiples of whatever.

[Conway]

Actually, in the current Cheapo you can scroll to the boundaries of the level, despite where the terrain or objects end. I suppose it won't matter not being able to shift a level by individual pixels, or having a few extra skills, like a jumper or swimmer. But please no crazy ones like the ones that can be guided by wind like in Tribes!

[DragonsLover]

I completely agree! Those are exagerated and I won't them!

I selected these that could be interesting to add without having to use a fan!

For the third time: What about my other suggestions: Animated buttons and red flashing screen?

[Essman]

For the third time: What about my other suggestions: Animated buttons and red flashing screen?

All suggestions are noted. I already have animated buttons, so that is guaranteed. The flashing red screen is not guaranteed to happen, but it seems cool.

[Conway]

Flashing red screen? What's that? ::

[guest]

I forgot what DragonsLover said, but it has something to do with nuking if I recall correctly.

Just make sure things like these can be turned on/off by the level designer.  Or better yet, if they are customizable via style editor.  After all, any suggestions of this nature are bound to not work out for some styles.

[guest]

But please no crazy ones like the ones that can be guided by wind like in Tribes!

Hmm, well I thought they were kind of interesting, though I have to agree they are somewhat difficult to carry out with consistent success.  (The twister is particularly annoying.)

Keep in mind though that, at least based on what we have read about Essman's "wind grid", there's also the possibility of actually incorporating fixed sources of wind right into the level itself (ie. there are certain areas in the level that has a particular wind).  Then instead of the wind being part of the solution, it could become part of the problem you need to work against to solve a level.  That might be interesting, who knows.

[DragonsLover]

Flashing red screen? What's that? ::

Conway, this is what I wrote some days ago. I'm feeling that you don't read my posts at all:

More suggestions:

1. Something cool for the "Nuke 'em all" feature: Make the screen flashing in red with an alarm sound instead of nothing...

2. What do you think about animated buttons like in Lemmings 95?

3. I though about to add more tools but not too much. I was looking tools in Lemmings 2 and some could be nice to add and some are so exagerated. Here are these it could be nice to add:

- Runner (where a lemming is faster than the other lemmings)
- Jumper (where the lemming could make a little jump to go higher in front of it)
- Swimmer (lemming that isn't affected by water and swim through)
- Laser Blaster (where the lemming uses a laser to dig a hole over his head, it's like a reversed digger)
- Stacker (could be interesting for climbers and diggers it's when a lemming is building a wall by piling up blocks)
- Platformer (where a lemming could build an horizontally platform over a hole)
- Slider (when a lemming is near a gap, it slides down safely)
- Rock Climber (same thing than a climber, but it is not necessary for the wall to have little holes or bumps for the lemming to fall)

And those where I'm unsure, it depends of you :

- Roller (where a lemming is faster and that falls diagonally without crashing, by rolling)
- Hopper (where a lemming is constantly making high jumps in front of it)
- Diver (where a lemming is diving in front of it)
- Shimmier (the lemming jumps and if it touches the ceiling, it starts to climb horizontally (you know what I mean))

All others are less interesting and some are similar to the normal tools like the Stomper. What do you think about these tools?

[Conway]

I read it, I just forgot about the flashing red screen thing.

[DragonsLover]

That's ok! Everybody can forget!

[guest]

Earlier it was suggested for the new Cheapo to have skill toolboxes that can be picked up by the Lemmings within the level itself.

Here's just an extension of the idea:  have "clocks" that can be picked up by the Lemmings, which will add a certain amount of time (presumably either a fixed value or customizable per timer) to the timer.

This can create interesting "race against the clock" type levels, where your trailblazer needs to pick up certain timers in order to have enough time to get the level solved.  Even more interesting is the possibility that while your trailblazer is working its way towards the exit, you need to also divert and multitask other lemmings to pick up timers elsewhere so that there is enough time.

[Conway]

Oooh! Like in Paintball? That sounds interesting. But it could also lead to some very cheap and nasty levels, such as one hiding a vital timepiece in the terrain. And that's just the beginning.

[Conway]

Nah, I'm just saying what could happen, given some crafty designers. I'm not saying it's not a good idea, but any good idea can be cheaply exploited.

[Essman]

...But it could also lead to some very cheap and nasty levels, such as one hiding a vital timepiece in the terrain. And that's just the beginning.

You must've had a bad experience with a cheap level in a past life and have lost all trust in level designers.

[guest]

but any good idea can be cheaply exploited.

Heck, not just good ideas.  Even the most mundane, existsing ideas such as cut-and-paste of terrain can be cheaply exploited......

For example, it allows for the creation of "invisible" terrain.  [Well...almost.  To be truly invisible (guess why) you really need to be using certain styles out there (I don't mean something specifically created for this), and even then there are still ways to see it unless you use a custom style specifically for this.]  I can provide an example but I'm sure you can easily imagine how it can be done.

We'll let you know right away though once Essman finds a way for the new Cheapo level editor to detect cheap levels and refuse to save them.  

[Conway]

'We'll let you know . . .'?!? So you are in league with Essman in the design of the new game! Lol!

 Yeah, I see your point. Even in LemEdit cheap levels could be made. I even made some myself, so I shouldn't complain!

[Essman]

'We'll let you know . . .'?!? So you are in league with Essman in the design of the new game! Lol!

Nobody is helping me with the game, which is why it's taking so long to get anything completed. I'm also making the design way too complicated, which is why it takes even longer yet. For example, right now I'm working on a Windows Explorer plug-in to allow you to browse your level records right from Explorer. This is overkill, yet I'm doing it just because writing Windows Shell Extensions is something new.

[SyNTaX]

Adding a few suggestions to the wishlist "pot".

- Interactive objects. Think Revolutions.
*A steel door that opens if a lemming steps on a button or flips a switch.
*(Draw)bridges. Also activated using switches.
*"Weight lifts" - platforms that move a bit lower if a lemming steps on it. More lemmings = goes lower. As if there was a spring below.
*Cannons. Long range basher/miner/bomber effects.
*Gates that close after a certain number of lemmings have passed.
*Catapults (Tribes-way).
*Acid sparays which can cut through metal.

- Events. Such as pieces of terran falling maybe. Trapdoors that open at some time when the level is playing already (no more need for all those lemmings faling into the water, waiting for a bridge to be built below).

- Some skills.
Roper from L2.
Bomber from L2.
Teleporter - to any place you want.
Ballooner from L2, though it would require a bit of wind. I dunno, maybe not such a good idea at all.

- Baddies. Definately baddies. e.g walking traps.

[DragonsLover]

Adding a few suggestions to the wishlist "pot".

- Interactive objects. Think Revolutions.
*A steel door that opens if a lemming steps on a button or flips a switch.
*(Draw)bridges. Also activated using switches.
*"Weight lifts" - platforms that move a bit lower if a lemming steps on it. More lemmings = goes lower. As if there was a spring below.
*Cannons. Long range basher/miner/bomber effects.
*Gates that close after a certain number of lemmings have passed.
*Catapults (Tribes-way).
*Acid sparays which can cut through metal.

- Events. Such as pieces of terran falling maybe. Trapdoors that open at some time when the level is playing already (no more need for all those lemmings faling into the water, waiting for a bridge to be built below).

- Some skills.
Roper from L2.
Bomber from L2.
Teleporter - to any place you want.
Ballooner from L2, though it would require a bit of wind. I dunno, maybe not such a good idea at all.

- Baddies. Definately baddies. e.g walking traps.

- Interactive objects
- Skills from L2



- Trapdoors that open at a specified time
- Baddies



Also, teleporters already exist.

[SyNTaX]

I meant a teleporter skill Not to be used in many levels, just very few. Or maybe.. oh yea! Teleporters that only allow a number of lems to teleport! (Or should we call them Dimwits now )

[Isu]

I got a cool idea:mikecool:

How about the addition of blowers where a lemming gets blown in a certain direction until it hits something or enters the path of another blower.
Anyone who has played "Krusty's super fun house" will know what I'm talking about.

[DragonsLover]

More suggestions:

- When a lemming is digging, bashing, mining or exploding through the landscape, it could be nice to have a dirt graphic in the background at the same place where the landscape was. Like Worms. When a worm is making a hole, we don't see the background, the "sky", we see the dirt. You understand what I mean?

- Have like "checkpoints" where it could be easier to go from a place to another instantly. I mean, for example, you get a huge map, and there's a trapdoor a the top-left of the level and another one at the bottom-right. It's kinda boring to pause the game and change place all the time between the two trapdoors. Why not pressing Ctrl+"any number" to set a point for both trapdoors. Then, when you'll press the specified key, you could zoom directly to the specified point. That way, you only have to press "1" for a point and "2" to go directly to another point, then still press "1" to go back... and so on.

- Something cool in Lemmings would be a "sun" effet. In fact, you could get 4 effects: None (classically), Morning, Noon and Afternoon. Not the 3 last at the same time! With Morning, for example, landscapes ONLY could make shadows on Lemmings, background and objects diagonnally down to the right (because at the morning, the sun is at the left when you face South direction). At noon, the shadow would go down. And at Afternoon, the shadow would go down to the left. Also, on landscapes, it could be nice to see every pixels on the top of them lighter because of the light of the sun. Of course, if 3 effects aren't enough, why not "alien" suns where the lights are from "under" the level. Finally, it could be nice to change the color of the sun. What do you think about this idea?

- Have a color filter for levels. Imagine playing a level all in blue, red, or even black, where everything is darker than normal. It could give special atmospheres! It's a little bit like the sun effect (see above) excepted that it's the ambiant light and not a sun.

In other words, have LIGHT EFFECTS! This is something that is not considerated in some Lemmings games.

[SyNTaX]

in some Lemmings games.

90% i'd say, even more perhaps
But lighting effects are indeed the way to go. Lens flares perhaps as well? Those could be deactivated from the game menu.

[Timballisto]

INSERT ALL POSTS ABOVE INTO A QUOTE BOX

...

Um...wow...Essman will die of work before he can do all this stuff...I'm guessing...man he's doing a lot.

[Essman]

Um...wow...Essman will die of work before he can do all this stuff...I'm guessing...man he's doing a lot.

Yes I probably would die first. I've been working on the game for so long that I'm practically dead now. Actually for the previous month and the next few months I cannot even work on the game because something else has taken ultimate priority.

[Conway]

Oh well. Get well soon!

[Essman]

Oh well. Get well soon!

Ha, it's not health related. If I was that sick then I'd have tons of time to write the program.

[Proxima]

Well, good luck with whatever it is!

And I hope it's the same sort of thing that's been keeping me away from Cheapo for a while...........

[Isu]

Yes I probably would die first. I've been working on the game for so long that I'm practically dead now.

Don't know about anyone else but I don't expect all the suggestions (even the ones I gave) to be present in the next or any future cheapo game. I expect everyone is just throwing as many ideas to Essman as possible so that he could choose the best ones to put in the future versions of cheapo.

Its still a brilliant clone though.

[Timballisto]

So...uh...how's it coming?

[Essman]

So...uh...how's it coming?

Don't hold your breath. I still can't work on it for another couple months. By the time I'm done, everyone here will have lost interest in the game, and then regained interest. Many of the suggestions were being implemented before I had to take a break.

[Conway]

By the time I'm done, everyone here will have lost interest in the game

 Never! O_o

[Shvegait]

, and then regained interest.

I think what Essman was referring to is that it will be a LONG time before Cheapo gets done, so long that we will have lost sustained interest in Dimwits and will have our interested sparked again... Things like interest in something tend to go in cycles... That's what I got out of it anyway

[Timballisto]

This is true.  If it wasn't, I'd always play the same video game over and over.

[Conway]

 . . . true . . .

[okmot]

the CLONES development team has implemented some of the ideas from this thread and will soon release a new version which we feel is about 3x more fun to play due to the new gameplay objects and features   now we just have to make some singleplayer levels which take advantage of the new features..  i wish we had more level designers

http://www.clonesgame.com

[guest]

New suggestion.

Yet another random idea off top of my head.  Might not work too spectacularly well but interesting to consider.

Weak terrain.

Basically this comes off of a strange and rather cruel idea that briefly flashed in my head for no apparent reason.

I was imagining how a basher tries to bash thru the base of a gigantic hill but then the earth collapsed on him.  

And so born the idea of weak terrain.  There are a number of variations with this, but the basic idea is it's an invisible "field" you can assign to the terrain, analogous to metal areas and one-way walls.

Weakened terrain has the property that during excavation, with a short bit of delay the column(s) of pixels starting from the point where you removed terrain, will fall down until it hits ground.

So for example, say we are bashing, and the weak terrain pixels are marked as "X":

Code: [Select]

XXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
 XXXXXXXXXXX
 XXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
(I know a basher's tunnel is taller than that, just humor me ok)

Then after a short delay, preferably once the basher bashed further and out of the way or something, the terrain will fall down at some unspecified speed and eventually the terrain becomes:

Code: [Select]

  XXXXXXXXXXX
 XXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
Although not completely decided, I'd say the lemmings who gets hit on the head by such falling columns of terrain pixels will be killed instantly, although to make it sensible there probably should be a minimum height and falling distance for the column to be lethal when falling down (having a single pixel knock the air off a lemming is a bit silly even for this wacky idea).

I'd imagine the terrain probably falls at the same speed of a non-floater lemming, maybe a bit faster.  I also imagine that the columns of weak pixels affected, during the "delay" phase when they're about to fall, they'd flash so the player is aware of the imminent danger/problem.  For extra punch, when the falling columns of pixels finally touch ground, maybe we can draw some confetti or dust cloud or something.  And of course we'd need some good sound effects.

I haven't decided yet on whether cascading terrain collapse is allowed, but I think it's a neat idea on top of a simple collapse.  Cascading terrain collapse could occur if an entire column of weak terrain sit in mid-air unsupported by normal terrain below.  For example, say we have a bridge-like thing with water or air below:

Code: [Select]

         XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX --
               XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX   |---- all weak
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX --
XXXX  
XXXX   (water or air here)
Then after the first collapse we get:

Code: [Select]

                     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX --
             XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX   |---- all weak
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX --
XXXX  
XXXX   (water or air here)
If we allow cascading collapse, then since the first collapse lands on a column of completely unsupported weak terrain, that column will be triggered to collapse after another delay, and so we finally get:

Code: [Select]

                XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX --
                    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX   |---- all weak
XXXX  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX --
XXXX  
XXXX   (water or air here)
-----------------------------

The interesting property about weak terrain is that it is more difficult to create a path through such terrain by excavation, because the collapse will quickly close the path off.  At least until you excavate enough times so there are no more terrain to be collapsed from above, or unless you started off excavating so high that there is nothing to collapse from above.  At the same time, this collapsing property can be useful in its own right:  imagine demolishing a tall column blocking the crowd's way by bashing thru it, and imagine it sits on entirely weak terrain and we have cascading collapse enabled.  Then after bashing, the column will eventually fall off on its own.  If that column was originally in the way of a second higher platform, you have effectively clear out the obstacle with just one basher, instead of two (bashing at lower platform and bash at higher platform) you'd be required normally.

[guest]

Just want to add 2 more details to this.

I mentioned that the weak terrain will be assigned to terrain pixels in the level editor in a manner analogous to the assignment of metal areas of one-way walls.

However, it just occurred to me that at game time, you'll need to track weak terrain differently from regular one-way walls and steel.  Because for the whole scheme to make sense, we need to keep track of weak terrain at a pixel level, since the weak pixels don't stay in one place but will likely fall down during gameplay.

So memory-wise this is more expensive than steel or one-way walls.  However, we can keep this manageable by limiting the total number of weak pixels supported by the game, and have the level editor check accordingly to enforce it.  This will work since the number of weak pixels in the level can never increase during gameplay, so at any time you have, at most, only as many weak pixels as you assigned to the level initially.

Further memory reduction may occur if we realize that, since the pixels move as columns, we may represent them as such, instead of individual pixels.  Of course, each time you apply excavation you'd effectively split a single column into two, so it would seem like you might ended up using up just as much memory.  But here's the beauty:  since the number of skills are also fixed by the level designer, you can use the total number and types of excavation skills available, in conjunction with the total number of columns of weak pixels you start off with, to calculate/estimate how much memory you might need and limit the level designer's usage of weak terrain accordingly.

------------------------

Finally, I forgot the issue of visually representing weak pixels.  This is unfortunately somewhat difficult, especially once the columns of weak pixels starts separating themselves out one by one during some excavation.

Though perhaps we can still rely on the memory of the player to keep track of which pixels are weak once they start collapsing.  In which case it suffices to only indicate which pixels are weak at the initial state of the level.

Since we assign weak terrain using the same system we assign one-way wall, naturally we can indicating weak terrain similarly.  For example, perhaps we can overlay a bunch of red Xs, as opposed to red arrows, to indicate weak terrain.  Of course, once the terrain starts collapsing, the arrows will collapse with the pixels so it can become harder to tell, but it's a viable solution.

You can of course also just make weak terrain pixels be constanting 'glowing", so that you can easily tell them apart visually even after arbitrary amounts of collapse, although that might be a bit too distracting (not to mention it might make the terrain look radioactive rather than weak).

---------------------------

Oh, and I just see another interesting aspect of this.  So far I only consider collapse during excavation.  But perhaps we should also consider collapse caused merely by a lemming landing on/walking over a column of weak pixels unsupported by anything below?  I'll have to think about this, though it seems like a sensible and workable idea.  We might even consider having two (visually distinguishable of course) types of weak terrain, a "weak" and "extra weak" one, with the "extra weak" prone to collapse by walking while the normal one not.

It is also interesting, if we accept the possibility of introducing Lemmings 2 style skills, to extending some of that to this weak terrain concept.  For example, perhaps the weak terrain can absorb the glue from the filler skill or the glue pourer skill, and turn into normal terrain.

Anyway, the possibilities are fascinating.

-------------------------

To the programmer or Clones:  it seems like this weak terrain idea can work out quite some havoc on multiplayer gameplay!  Though it might need to be constrained somewhat to avoid being too cheaply exploited.  But I'd say it's worth thinking about.

[Essman]

However, it just occurred to me that at game time, you'll need to track weak terrain differently from regular one-way walls and steel. &#A0;Because for the whole scheme to make sense, we need to keep track of weak terrain at a pixel level, since the weak pixels don't stay in one place but will likely fall down during gameplay.

So memory-wise this is more expensive than steel or one-way walls. &#A0;However, we can keep this manageable by limiting the total number of weak pixels supported by the game, and have the level editor check accordingly to enforce it.

There are many ways that this can be implemented. I know of an extremely efficient way to do it that doesn't require keeping track of every single pixel that is weak, so the whole level could be weak.
Anyway, this will go on the wish list as something to do after the initial release.

[Conway]

It's an interesting idea, but it sounds far too complicated to be worth while. If it is incorporated, however, maybe weak terrain could be represented by semi-transparent terrain.

 Also, it doesn't seem logical that falling terrain should kill the lemming under it. Lemmings can, after all, be completely embedded in a wall and not be crushed to death! At least, that's the case with every previous version or clone.

[guest]

Well, I see falling terrain as very different from simply being embedded in a piece of normal terrain.

After all, it is falling!    That extra momentum is not something the poor lemmings would scoff at!  Also, when in the case of being completely embedded in the terrain, notice that the terrain pixels still exists at where the lemming is drawn, and therefore the pixels are still supporting each other, so from that point of view the lemmings should not feel any weight or pressure.

But I'm not pressing too hard for falling terrain to be lethal.  The main concept is that as the basher or miner excavates thru, the terrain soon closes on itself.  The cascade-falling idea is also interesting.  Also, although I didn't explicitly mentioned it, since normal terrain are unaffected by any of this, note that you can temporarily or permanently hold up a column of weak pixels with build bricks which are normal terrain.

There will definitely be some complexity no doubt, as is the case of any extensions which involves terrain pixels that can move around.  I'll let Essman decide for himself.

[guest]

Hey Essman, while you're around, I want to ask whether you have enough time to answer some questions regarding the existing Cheapo, in particular about modifying styles.

Basically there is a preliminary plan to add new MIDIs to the music list of certain styles, in particular the XLemmus styles.

I see roughly 2 approaches:

1) if the original .stt file exists we can just modify and regenerate the style.  Unfortunately I don't know if anyone has the .stt files in question.

2) I'm under the impression that it's possible for new .stt files to reference stuff in an existing .sty.  If so then life would be awesome, we'll just make a new style off of an existing one plus the new MIDIs.  But is the referencing thing true or am I just confused?

3) Finally, if all else fails, and here's where you really come in:  either give me enough info on the internal file format of .sty files so I can write a program to turn it back into an .stt file and do #1, or better yet, give me just enough info on the file format so I can attempt to hack the new MIDIs into the .sty files.

And no, it's not acceptable to wait until hell freezes over...I mean, until Dimwit is ready.  (Just kidding about the hell part  )

Anyway, do you have time for this?  I'm hoping it wouldn't be too time-consuming to just educate me on the relevant info.  please e-mail me (guestlevels 'at' yahoo) if we end up needing to pursue option #3.

Thanks!  

[Essman]

Hey Essman, while you're around, I want to ask whether you have enough time to answer some questions regarding the existing Cheapo, in particular about modifying styles.

I'll email you at the address you provided.

[guest]

Thanks for the reply.  Stupid me for not thinking of that.  And happy me for not needing to pursue option #3.

[guest]

This suggestion is actually copied from Clones.

In Clones, they had this type of interactive object that looks like a sort of short tunnel, with one end larger than the other end.  Clones that entered from the small end will emerge enlarged from the large end, and vice versa.

The real point is not so much this object per se but the idea of having a "size" state for Lemmings.  Lemmings can be either normal size as they are now, or be "supersize".  Like Clones, there are some important behavioral differences with size, the most obvious being that when you have supersize lemmings excavate, their actions would take out proportionally more terrain (bigger explosions, taller bash tunnels, etc.) then their regular-size counterparts.

So here's the proposal:

1) introduce a few new interactive object types.  One type would convert a lemming passing over it to supersize, another to normal size, and yet another that switches sizes.

2) have two sizes of exits, a normal size and a supersize exit, to be explained below

3) have two sizes of entrances, a normal size and a supersize entrance, so that it is possible for lemmings to enter into a level starting off supersized

4) Here are the behavioral differences between normal and supersize lemmings:

i) excavation and building are proportionally larger in effect.  Basically, for exacation you would proportionally enlarge the masks used to take out terrain pixels, and for building you would proportionally enlarge the build bricks, with the net effect of a supersized build being longer and higher.

ii) supersized lemmings moves more slowly than normal size lemmings, when walking and climbing

iii) supersized lemmings falls and floats faster than normal size lemmings.  Optionally, supersized lemmings may also have a shorter max-fall distance.

iv) the min-wall height (the minimum height for a lemming to turn around at a wall instead of walking straight up it) for supersized lemmings is proportionally larger.

v) supersized lemmings may only exit the level via supersized exits (they can't fit thru the normal size exits).  However, normal size lemmings may exit via either sizes of exits.

vi) this is optional but a potentially interesting behavior:  supersized blockers only affect supersized lemmings, and normal blockers only affect normal sized lemmings.  The "rationale":  the normal sized lemmings could just walk between the legs of the supersized blockers, while the supersized lemmings could just step over the normal sized lemmings.

That's about it for the differences, I can't think of anything else that should be different between the two.

I don't have a clear idea on what the actual size differences should be between the two.

[Proxima]

You know, heavy objects don't actually fall faster than light ones.....

- - -

I have a suggestion. Why can't teleports be "constant" objects? You wouldn't be able to make an animation for the lemming disappearing, but the teleport itself could be animated -- for instance, a flaming doorway. Or maybe you could program a sort of object with both constant and "activate" animations but the style designer could use just one if he preferred.

[drumnbach]

You're right. If you drop both a helium balloon and your standard Yorkshire Terrier from off the top of the Empire State Building, the helium balloon will actually meet the ground first, on virtue of floating up so high that it circles the earth and lands in the Australian outback.

[drumnbach]

Isn't there the myth about the ant being able to survive a fall from the top of the Empire State Building?

Yep they float down holding tiny umbrellas

[guest]

You know, heavy objects don't actually fall faster than light ones.....

True, but only if there's no signficant air resistance.  Isn't there the myth about the ant being able to survive a fall from the top of the Empire State Building?

Anyhow, I just threw in that idea since it might be useful for gameplay.  I think in Clones everything do fall at the same speed anyway.

[guest]

I have a suggestion. Why can't teleports be "constant" objects? You wouldn't be able to make an animation for the lemming disappearing, but the teleport itself could be animated -- for instance, a flaming doorway.

Since I have a feeling you are actually trying to create such a thing in the existing Cheapo, may I suggest that you can put the animating flames in a separate object?

[Proxima]

Since I have a feeling you are actually trying to create such a thing in the existing Cheapo, may I suggest that you can put the animating flames in a separate object?

Heh, I worked that one out. But it would be more convenient from my point of view as the style designer to know that if my style were to be used by others, they would _have_ to use the two objects together as intended.

[guest]

There's nothing wrong with using them separately in unintended ways.  

I'm sure by looking at your levels, or possibly not even doing that, people can figure out the flames are meant to be used with the teleport.  And if they find a neat way to use the flames or the teleport alone, more power to them.

Still, I guess your suggestion can be a convenience.

[Proxima]

I have a few new suggestions........

(1) Non-rectangular erasers. (Isosceles right triangles and circles are the most useful shapes that spring to mind.) One way to do this would be to have the erasers bitmap on the style file contain three colours -- the background, the eraser colour (which has to be black) and a "foreground" representing pixels that are in the eraser rectangle but not part of the eraser, if that makes sense.

(2) An "opaque mode" -- that is, if you copy and paste a rectangle, black pixels are also copied and can overwrite terrain pixels. (Unlike Paint, this should not be default; it's really annoying to have to turn it off all the time. But having it there would be useful.)

(3) Allow level sizes up to at least 1600 x 1600 -- I think that's the maximum width on the original game.

[Essman]

I have a few new suggestions........

(1) Non-rectangular erasers.
(2) An "opaque mode"
(3) Allow level sizes up to at least 1600 x 1600

1 = Done, you can also paste any bitmap and use it as an eraser
2 = Hmm, maybe, if there is an obvious place for that option to live
3 = Done

[guest]

2 = Hmm, maybe, if there is an obvious place for that option to live

Well that's easy, make a "Paste Opaque" menu item under the "Edit" menu, right beneath the regular "Paste".

[Isu]

How about backwards compatibility?
I fear this is such an obvious suggestion that you're going to make me look a fool for mentioning it.

[Essman]

How about backwards compatibility?

The style and level format of each game are completely different. I plan on making a converter, but don't expect perfect fidelity.

[geoo]

I don't know whether it has been mentioned, but a blocker turns neither bashers nor miners around.
That means, a lemming can simply pass a blocker with bashing! Also miner should be turned around.
I think this should be changed.

[Proxima]

Well that's easy, make a "Paste Opaque" menu item under the "Edit" menu, right beneath the regular "Paste".

I don't agree; that wouldn't deal with placing terrain directly from the Add Graphic window in opaque mode. I suggest that "Draw Opaque" be a toggle command in the Edit menu.

[guest]

I don't agree; that wouldn't deal with placing terrain directly from the Add Graphic window in opaque mode.

Oh ok.  Well when you first described it you specifically said "if you copy and paste a rectangle".

[Proxima]

 Yeah, but it afterwards occurred to me that it would be neater to have it work for adding graphics in the first place as well.

- - -

Another suggestion.

I think objects should have the possibility of going in three layers -- in front of everything, in front of terrain graphics but behind lemmings and bridges, and at the back. The point is that most often you don't want objects to appear in front of lemmings or bridges, and it's very annoying to place lots of objects in the wrong layer because you changed layer to make a small modification to the terrain and then have to change them all. But just sometimes you will want an object to appear in front of lemmings -- for instance, a "mist" harmless animation object.

[Jase]

Being a master player of the Lemmings game for Sega Master System and NES, I am reminded of some things I found quite good in that version which did not appear in other versions. Now if you think I'm going to navigate a humungous topic like this one, you're mistaken. So whether it's been said or not, here's my suggestions. And there's a few of them...
(some are complete nonsense but might be good for some thought)

- Customisable Stage Clear and Loading Stage screen - make it like how you can move objects around in a PowerPoint window.
- You can change the amount of clicks a builder makes. Eg, if you don't like how it was in the original Aimga version <3 clicks, you're out> you can change it to SMS style <4 clicks> or even No Clicks!
- Change whether or not your level set carries the same music in every level (Amiga) or the music is stored in a folder or something and chosen at random (Windows 95).
- None of this styles file nonsense. I looked on your site, and it's gonna be customisable with a GUI so no worries there.
- Be able to change the Lemmings fall resistance. In the NES version, in Tailor Made For Blockers, you can't do the three Blockers trick, you have to guide the Lemmings on EVERY SINGLE EFFING PLATFORM so that they don't splat on the ground. I'd like to make some levels that are like that, rather than having a high-up platform.
- No one is going to pay attention to this one. In the NES version and the GameBoy version, the Lemmings sprites were defined in little squares. That is, a Lemming would not do a skill until it fit into these invisible squares. So often they did the moves at the wrong time, or not at all. That was fun for some levels.
- And another dumb suggestion, but one to ponder over. In the NES version, the building is VERY steep. It goes up up up rather than up and across practically. Could there be a switch for this? lol
- Some incorporation for MOD music files. MIDI sounds very much bland and sterile. Let's get the old MOD files back in business! w00t!
- The Esc button restarts the level, like Lemmings 2: The Tribes.... oh by the way, incorporate Lemmings 2 skills, and I'll Bash you, Dig a hole, Block off on lookers and throw you in and let you Float gently into the ground. (Lemmings 2: The Useless)
- The Mini-Map actually lets you pick where to go! Pardon me if I am mistaken, but the Mini-Map in Cheapo does nothing. :S
- Make black in certain graphics walkable on! In one of Adam's SEGA levels, he had to make one of the graphics (a plug, in Sega Two) white. It just looked weird.
- Allow (just for twiddling's sake) the creator of a level to choose what part exactly of the Exit the Lemmings jump into. Sometimes, the Lemmings jump into the wall :S
- No more than 99 of a skill. No more than 100 Lemmings. :p
- Be able to set a background image for levels.
- As suggested, sounds when you click the skills buttons. Make it like Amiga's. That's fun, you could pause the game and "play the piano" lol.
- Customisable Opening Menu, in the PowerPoint "click, drag, 'n drop" style. So you could draw graphics in MS Paint or something, import them, and set them (with something similar to PowerPoint's action settings feature) to either bring up the Load Set/Level screen, configure Game Options, or Quit the game. etc.
- The Editor program doesn't hog the whole screen. Pardon me if I'm mistaken, but Cheapo editor grabs the whole screen and hides the Task Bar.

That's all
Jase

[Mindless]

- Customisable Stage Clear and Loading Stage screen - make it like how you can move objects around in a PowerPoint window.

Too complicated. Keep the intro and extro screens simple.

- Some incorporation for MOD music files. MIDI sounds very much bland and sterile. Let's get the old MOD files back in business! w00t!

This would be a nice feature.

- The Esc button restarts the level, like Lemmings 2: The Tribes....

This would also be handy.

- The Mini-Map actually lets you pick where to go! Pardon me if I am mistaken, but the Mini-Map in Cheapo does nothing. :S

It should do something...

- Make black in certain graphics walkable on! In one of Adam's SEGA levels, he had to make one of the graphics (a plug, in Sega Two) white. It just looked weird.

Dimwits needs transparency.

- Be able to set a background image for levels.

This would make levels look nicer, I think this was already planned to be implamented.

- The Editor program doesn't hog the whole screen. Pardon me if I'm mistaken, but Cheapo editor grabs the whole screen and hides the Task Bar.

This is annoying and should be changed.

---

All in all, these are nice suggestions, but are not necessities.

[guest]

- Customisable Stage Clear and Loading Stage screen - make it like how you can move objects around in a PowerPoint window.

That's rather vague, but I guess if all you mean are those slide-to-slide transitions available in PowerPoint, some subset of them can be done.  Anything more complicated would probably be more trouble than it's worth.

- You can change the amount of clicks a builder makes.

Interesting, I would've thought the number of clicks are standardized across versions, guess not.

Still, I far prefer the game to stick to 3 clicks consistently, otherwise it's just ungainful confusion for everyone.

What might be interesting though is to customize the "click" sound effect itself, although I think even the current version of Cheapo already supports this.

- Be able to change the Lemmings fall resistance. <snip> I'd like to make some levels that are like that, rather than having a high-up platform.

Again, I'm more for consistency when it comes to basic elements of game mechanics.  It's already bad enough that there are variations in the falling distances across the various versions of Lemmings 1, we don't need to have every level designer potentially coming up with their own version.

One possible compromise is to introduce new trap types which are activated when you fall down onto it, and only activated based on the falling distance.  For example I can imagine a hidden "springy floor" trap where if you fall from too high a height, it will bounce you back up with such speed the Lemming will splat when it hits the ceiling overhead.

- No one is going to pay attention to this one. In the NES version and the GameBoy version, the Lemmings sprites were defined in little squares. That is, a Lemming would not do a skill until it fit into these invisible squares. So often they did the moves at the wrong time, or not at all. That was fun for some levels.

You realize your last 2 statements are contradicting each other, right?  

My general impression is that most people actually hate this feature.  That being said, it might be fun to experiment around with this, but I'd insist that the "skill areas" be at least somewhat visible.  For example, if you click on one of the skills and there's a "skill area" for that skill somewhere in the level, it'll briefly highlight or flash the area so you know where exactly it is.

In the NES version, the building is VERY steep. It goes up up up rather than up and across practically. Could there be a switch for this?

No, but we can introduce this as a new skill.  Just like in Lemmings 2, the "scooper" is basically the same as a miner, except it goes at a steeper 45 degree angle.

- Some incorporation for MOD music files. MIDI sounds very much bland and sterile. Let's get the old MOD files back in business! w00t!

One advantage of MIDI, from Peter's point of view, is that it is easy to program because you basically get it for free (ie. in terms of programming effort) with Windows.  This is unfortunately not quite the case with MOD music.   That being said, I suppose Peter can at least make that part of the platform open, to allow for the possibility of people programming custom plug-ins for other music file formats.

Incidentally, I don't think MIDIs are that bad.  pretty much all of the Lemmings 1 music actually adapt quite well to MIDI, with maybe the exception of "Doggie" and some of the "special graphics level" music.

[guest]

- The Esc button restarts the level, like Lemmings 2

That is one of the more stupid things in Lemmings 2 actually.  It completely contradicts the meaning of "Escape", since you literally can never escape from the current level with that Esc key.  O_o

I'm quite happy with Ctrl+R for restart, though I do agree it's nice to have a way of restart that doesn't force you to go through the menu or level intro/preview screen.

.... oh by the way, incorporate Lemmings 2 skills, and I'll Bash you, Dig a hole, Block off on lookers and throw you in and let you Float gently into the ground. (Lemmings 2: The Useless)

I don't think Peter plans to provide any Lemmings 2 skills with the game itself, but he might open up the platform for people to create their own skills.

And while I agree many skills in Lemmings 2 are a bit frivolous, they are kinda fun, and more importantly, some of the Lemmings 2 skills are useful in their own rights.  The stacker and platformer for example I think are good complements to builders, just like how even in the original Lemmings you have 3 directions for excavation (horizontal, down, diagonally down).

- Make black in certain graphics walkable on! In one of Adam's SEGA levels, he had to make one of the graphics (a plug, in Sega Two) white. It just looked weird.

Actually, Adam just haven't thought this through.  A very very dark shade of any color can usually make a good substitute for black.  So blame Adam on picking white of all colors, which is as far away from black as you can get.  

That being said, since we are planning to allow backgrounds that aren't black, I agree there probably should be a way to allow black terrain pixels as well.

- Allow (just for twiddling's sake) the creator of a level to choose what part exactly of the Exit the Lemmings jump into. Sometimes, the Lemmings jump into the wall :S

I have never seen Lemmings jump into the wall to exit.

Again, I'm not particular enthusiastic about introducing variations on such a fundamental facet of gameplay.  Besides, you can always create your own exit object to accomplish what you suggested above.

- No more than 99 of a skill. No more than 100 Lemmings. :p

This is completely arbitrary, though it does make displaying the numbers more manageable since you know how much screen estate to reserve in advance.

I doubt most level designers will take advantage of such high numbers anyway.

- Customisable Opening Menu, in the PowerPoint "click, drag, 'n drop" style. So you could draw graphics in MS Paint or something, import them, and set them (with something similar to PowerPoint's action settings feature) to either bring up the Load Set/Level screen, configure Game Options, or Quit the game. etc.

This is too vague for anyone to understand what exactly you mean.  That being said, customizable clickable areas in an opening screen can certainly be supported, shall Peter choose to do so.

- The Editor program doesn't hog the whole screen. Pardon me if I'm mistaken, but Cheapo editor grabs the whole screen and hides the Task Bar.

I believe Peter already fixed this with the Dimwit editor.

[Essman]

One advantage of MIDI, from Peter's point of view, is that it is easy to program because you basically get it for free (ie. in terms of programming effort) with Windows. &#A0;This is unfortunately not quite the case with MOD music. &#A0; That being said, I suppose Peter can at least make that part of the platform open, to allow for the possibility of people programming custom plug-ins for other music file formats.

Incidentally, I don't think MIDIs are that bad. &#A0;pretty much all of the Lemmings 1 music actually adapt quite well to MIDI, with maybe the exception of "Doggie" and some of the "special graphics level" music.

Since I'm using DirectX (DirectMusic) this time, allowing MP3s should be as easy as MIDI. The support for MIDI has been complete, I need to look into loading MP3s. Forget MOD unless DirectMusic just happens to support it.

[guest]

Since I'm using DirectX (DirectMusic) this time, allowing MP3s should be as easy as MIDI. The support for MIDI has been complete, I need to look into loading MP3s.

Interesting.  If I'm reading you right, are you saying that Dimwit will play MIDIs through DirectMusic, as opposed to the traditional MCI/winmm functions Cheapo uses?

I could be kidding myself (I really need to read up on DirectMusic), but I think DirectMusic supports DLS which is sort of like soundfonts (ie. custom instrument sample libraries).  With the proper support from you (to specify the DLS to use), it might be possible to create MIDI+DLS combinations that are just as versatile as MODs.  After all, the only real difference between MODs and MIDIs are that the former includes the samples being used.

[Essman]

Interesting. &#A0;If I'm reading you right, are you saying that Dimwit will play MIDIs through DirectMusic, as opposed to the traditional MCI/winmm functions Cheapo uses?

The MCI/winmm functions suck and were the source of odd MIDI bugs in the previous games. DirectMusic is much more powerful (and it will be playing the MIDIs instead).

With the proper support from you (to specify the DLS to use), it might be possible to create MIDI+DLS combinations that are just as versatile as MODs. &#A0;After all, the only real difference between MODs and MIDIs are that the former includes the samples being used.

Yes, that would probably be easy to support.

[Proxima]

Just for the record, Cheapo already supports changing which part of the exit graphic is functional.

[Jase]

Haha cool thanks for looking into my suggestions. You're right, they're not all THAT neccesary, but they make for interesting gameplay I must say. Some of us aren't used to the Amiga style builder for example And we want to play what we're used to (that is, hella annoying gameplay and next to impossible levels in the Fun rating ) but with super graphics But yeah, I was just wondering.  

MOD sucks compared to MP3 yes. But SOME of us have trouble loading MP3s all that fast But bleh whatever works MIDI is boring  :-/ That's all I'm gonna say

But I just wanted to clarify what i meant by the customisable powerpoint style intro/outro editing screen.

Say you wanted to make the Main Menu look like the Sega Master system one. First we see a blank white "sheet". We paste a picture in for the background. Lovely. Now we paste a picture in for the "1 Player" button. Nice. We click something like "Action Settings" or w/e, and make the 1 Player button pick a pack and start the game. Now let's paste a "New Level" button.  Okay, ctrl-V. Lovely. Now let's pick action settings. Since the game probably won't have passwords, let's forget it. It's a decoration now. Uhh let's put the graphic in for the "SFX/Music" thing. Nice. Okay time for another action setting. This button can open a configuration window. Coolies. Okay save to pack. Beautiful. Done ^.^

Like I said, I don't think any of my suggestions will be looked into but I just had to say it lol just to make me feel better  

But thanks for reading it anywho
Jase
Over and out!

[Isu]

WAY too many smilies there XD

[Jase]

haha thats better than i usually do mate but yeh anyways...