Author Topic: Reverse levels level pack  (Read 16845 times)

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Offline Minim

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Re: Reverse levels level pack
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2011, 07:43:36 AM »
I seem to have done the heights randomly, but as long as the lemmings don't splat. I think the question you brought up was a good one, as I have never realised about the fall height after a digger has been activated.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Reverse levels level pack
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2011, 10:41:46 AM »
In the interest of making things interesting, let me propose that people are free to adjust the height of the entrances in the reverse levels, within reason of course.

I'm going to try to define "within reason" more rigorously below:

- you cannot move it so much that the lemmings start out totally in a different area from where the original exit was situated (eg. below the terrain the exit sits on so that the lemmings land on someplace else altogether, or above some higher overhead terrain)

- if the exit trigger was fully buried in terrain (ie. requires terrain removal to expose the trigger for use), then the corresponding entrance must be placed such that lemmings come out stuck inside the terrain.  I would actually go as far as to say that the lemmings should come out at a vertical position ("position" as defined by Simon's definition of "effective coordinate" in this post) that's within the y range of the exit trigger, or lower if necessary for them to start stuck.

- conversely, if the exit trigger was not fully buried, then the corresponding entrance must be high enough that the lemmings come out at or above ground level.  Even slightly lowering the start position into the ground (without causing the lemmings to start off stuck) should be prohibited.  In PC Lemmmings, the lemming's starting y-position is the y coordinate of the entrance object, plus 14 (larger y means lower on the screen).

==================

Basically, the idea I want to capture is that the lemmings should end up landing on a location as close to the original exit's trigger area as possible, but give some freedom on the actual fall height, as that doesn't obviously map to any attributes of the original exit object, and therefore might as well be made a part of your strategy to pick a fall height that works best for your solution.

Offline finlay

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Re: Reverse levels level pack
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2011, 12:34:05 PM »
I've just been converting some ONML levels, and I've noticed a couple of things: first of all, the rock exit is significantly less wide than the entrance, and on 24 hour lemathon, for example, it ends up a bit further down the rock pillar than where the lemmings normally land.

secondly, "Worra load of old blocks!" (Crazy 15) has two entrance objects in the same location! Has anyone noticed this before?

Offline finlay

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Re: Reverse levels level pack
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2011, 02:07:00 PM »
ok, done them! Haven't played any, though... so they will need testing to make sure that the exits are at the right height and so on. I've only altered the X-coordinate of a small number of exits, particularly in the rock tileset, when the trigger area was in a significantly different place from the landing place in the original level. And, annoyingly, some of the exits ended up too high and were deleted off the playing field, so I've added them back in with a Y-coordinate of 0, but this may mean that they're buried (eg Wicked 20) or beneath the level of the platform they're meant to be on (eg Havoc 18). I still predict that probably most of them aren't possible, except for all the Tame levels.

Have a go, anyway.

Offline Minim

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Re: Reverse levels level pack
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2011, 04:53:40 PM »
secondly, "Worra load of old blocks!" (Crazy 15) has two entrance objects in the same location! Has anyone noticed this before?
I certainly have too! It has been mentioned before over there. The old spreadsheet said that there's only one entrance, so I won't blame anyone for not realising there are two just because it looked like one. ;)

Anyway I am going to download your pack. Thank you for making a zip file. :) Otherwise if I had to do it I would have to attach downloads on two different posts just like before.

Edit: I have extracted them, and sadly they are all .dat files. I was a bit disappointed that they weren't all 100 .lvl files, as it would have been a lot quicker for us to play them all for you. :P But still, since I can't make zip files, the .dat files was my Plan B.
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Offline finlay

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Re: Reverse levels level pack
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2011, 05:37:18 PM »
secondly, "Worra load of old blocks!" (Crazy 15) has two entrance objects in the same location! Has anyone noticed this before?
I certainly have too! It has been mentioned before over there. The old spreadsheet said that there's only one entrance, so I won't blame anyone for not realising there are two just because it looked like one. ;)

Anyway I am going to download your pack. Thank you for making a zip file. :) Otherwise if I had to do it I would have to attach downloads on two different posts just like before.

Edit: I have extracted them, and sadly they are all .dat files. I was a bit disappointed that they weren't all 100 .lvl files, as it would have been a lot quicker for us to play them all for you. :P But still, since I can't make zip files, the .dat files was my Plan B.
Personally I was finding the dat files easier because I didn't have to clutter up my folder with 100+ lvl files (for some reason my lemmix crashes if I load a level or replay from a folder other than the one with the relevant graphics files (I guess something to do with the directory it's 'pointing' at), so my folder is getting very cluttered very quickly!), and I can keep the dat file open in lemmix and load the next level with a single click, rather than going through the open file screen. It's possible that it's just different for you because you're running windows and actually have Lemmix integrated to some degree with your system, while mine is running through Wine/X11 and I can't just double click on a lvl file in the Finder to open it in Lemmix.

Sorry. Anyway... now that you have the dat files, you could always make lvl files. And do get 7z or another free compression program if you can. I can just have OS X do it for me, which is quite fortunate (you can just right click and there's a "compress files" option, it's great! :P ).

Have you tried any of the levels yet? Will you add them to your challenge thread?  ;P

Offline Minim

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Re: Reverse levels level pack
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2011, 06:08:11 PM »
Wow, you seem to be asking a lot here...

Well, I need a little break from the screen now. I've put the OhNo levels on the challenge thread for you. When I come back I'll probably do the Havoc levels.
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Offline Luis

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Re: Reverse levels level pack
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2011, 06:51:38 PM »
No offense but can you set the skills in the file? I find it a hassle having to look back to the topic to set up the skills for levels I just downloaded. I like this reverse idea by the way. I feel like making videos of these. How did you beat Fun 2 with 8 builders? I beat with 9, but that's because I put 10 by accident.
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Offline Clam

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Re: Reverse levels level pack
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2011, 08:34:02 PM »
In the interest of making things interesting, let me propose that people are free to adjust the height of the entrances in the reverse levels, within reason of course.

Seems a good idea, but if you change the entrance height, then any replays will only work if the entrance is at that same height, so you'd likely end up having to post a level file with each replay. Would it be good enough to just change the exit to an entrance and leave it where it is?

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Reverse levels level pack
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2011, 09:37:31 PM »
Seems a good idea, but if you change the entrance height, then any replays will only work if the entrance is at that same height, so you'd likely end up having to post a level file with each replay. Would it be good enough to just change the exit to an entrance and leave it where it is?

My expectation is that in most cases the random height minimac already set should work fine, because in most cases it probably doesn't matter.  So I only expect the need to post a level file when you actually need to change the entrance height to make things work out.

You can also petition minimac to change specific individual levels when the need comes, like We All Fall Down.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Reverse levels level pack
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2011, 09:43:53 PM »
No offense but can you set the skills in the file? I find it a hassle having to look back to the topic to set up the skills for levels I just downloaded.

 ??? Not sure what you're asking about.

The skills set in the reversed levels are exactly what the original levels offer.  There is no way to know in advance how many more skills or which skills you may choose to add to make the level solvable, especially since such findings are liable to be improved upon.

It's usually my own convention that if I post a replay that requires addition of skills to a level, I'll name the replay file to explicitly call out what to add.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Reverse levels level pack
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2011, 09:48:57 PM »
Edit: I have extracted them, and sadly they are all .dat files. I was a bit disappointed that they weren't all 100 .lvl files, as it would have been a lot quicker for us to play them all for you. :P But still, since I can't make zip files, the .dat files was my Plan B.

I actually prefer the DAT files like Finlay, and I'm on Windows.  Part of it is because my computers aren't set up to open LVL files automatically in Lemmix, but even if it did, I still think it's more convenient to switch levels in Lemmix's UI than hunting down a single file amongst hundreds in File Explorer.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Reverse levels level pack
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2011, 10:13:10 PM »
And, annoyingly, some of the exits ended up too high and were deleted off the playing field, so I've added them back in with a Y-coordinate of 0, but this may mean that they're buried (eg Wicked 20) or beneath the level of the platform they're meant to be on (eg Havoc 18).

I think this is actually a bug in Lemmix, according to various documentations negative y-coordinates for objects are supposed to work.  I suspect they will show up and function correctly in CustLemm for example.

It seems the problem only comes when you reopen the saved level in Lemmix; you can move objects around and do F2 playtest, and the objects will be located in the correct locations including negative y-coordinates.  So one solution is to make the y-coordinate 0 like you did, but ask individual Lemmix users to move the exit themselves to the proper location when they start playing with the level.  (And warn them not to save the changes or they won't be able to find the exit again when they revisit the level in Lemmix a later time!)

Offline finlay

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Re: Reverse levels level pack
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2011, 11:02:20 PM »
I was worried about it and used the verify feature to check, and everything. It doesn't matter too much. Just as long as you know. I think Havoc 20 was also affected, so I just moved the right hand exit down to the ground rather than the little bush that it was supposed to be on. (the left hand exit is halfway up the shaft, where your lemming lands in the forwards level. I don't think you can reach either one, though, because you get no builders...)

It's basically any level where the exit trigger is beneath the floor that you will have to do this with... just so you know. Wild 3 is also affected, for example.

Offline Luis

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Re: Reverse levels level pack
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2011, 06:01:21 AM »
??? Not sure what you're asking about.

The skills set in the reversed levels are exactly what the original levels offer.  There is no way to know in advance how many more skills or which skills you may choose to add to make the level solvable, especially since such findings are liable to be improved upon.

It's usually my own convention that if I post a replay that requires addition of skills to a level, I'll name the replay file to explicitly call out what to add.

Nevermind, I realized that the files here are actually meant for others to test how many skills the level needs, instead of a file with levels that have already been tested, but the skills are not configured yet.
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