Author Topic: New unofficial online Lemmings game...  (Read 31127 times)

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Offline bombsite

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New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« on: June 17, 2011, 09:35:34 AM »
I've created a new online Lemmings game.  I was originally just going to post the original DHTML Lemmings on my website, but upon playing it and reading through the code I noticed there was an extremely large amount of bugs in it, and it went really slowly on my 8 year old computer, so I rewrote it.

I've added HTML5 audio, improved the speed and made the timer more accurate, added a leaderboard (must be logged in via Facebook to add your scores currently), fixed loads of bugs which made some levels impossible to complete, removed the need for level codes (it remembers what levels you've unlocked) and lots more which I can't think of at the moment!

It also features Tim Wright's original Amiga music, which I have his permission to use!

Please feel free to try it out at http://bombsite.org/jslems/ and let me know if any levels don't work as they should, or if there are any improvements you'd like to see.

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2011, 12:18:24 PM »
It works fine and fluent  :D. But the Change Level button seems to not work properly, and I have some confusion about which task is selected. And in Level 8, the shelter seems to be affected by excavations. I would also suggest the possibility of activate the Pause with keyboard, and allow to select tasks within Pause time. But the rest of the game I have tested seems to work OK.  :thumbsup:

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2011, 01:09:02 PM »
Thanks for the feedback Ron.  In what way does the Change Level button not work for you?  Is it an intermittent problem?

When you select a task the background turns light green - is this happening in your browser?  Should I change the highlight colour?

I'm currently working on that level 8 issue.

You can now activate pause by pressing 'p' as in the original Lemmings game, and you can now select tasks whilst paused.

Keep the suggestions coming!

Offline DragonsLover

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2011, 06:36:06 PM »
Wow! Nice job here! :thumbsup: However:

- Pressing "Esc" causes all object animations to freeze and if we select "Pause", all object animations are still animating.
- Also, I was wondering, why not using the official Lemmings sound effects? I'm talking about these on the Amiga or on the Windows version.
- I got a problem on Level 9: if you somewhat miss to give a Basher to the first lemming, it becomes almost impossible to make a right-way Lemming to bash through the column in the crowd.
- The digger animation is a bit weird as he moves sideways while digging. :o
- Changing release rate can causes weird release rate speed
- The "3 last blocks" sound effect of a builder plays a bit too early.
- I got a builder to build over another Lemmings stair and he turned around instead of keeping building up.
- At a few occasions, you think you have clicked on a Lemming, when it's not.
- Basher keeps bashing the first row of pixels on the floor while the others above are free.
- A splatting Lemming will blow up if the bomber counter comes to 0.
- You cannot increase or decrease release rate while paused.

Keep up the great work! 8)
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Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2011, 09:32:23 PM »
Thanks DragonsLover.  Your suggestions will take a bit longer to implement than Ron_Stard's, but I'll try my best!

1. That's a common problem with animated GIFs, but pressing ESC should only freeze the animations if they haven't fully downloaded yet.   I was thinking of changing the way the animations are done as animated GIFs don't work on all platforms.  I'll keep you posted!
2. Well, I have got the Windows SFX, but I wanted to keep the number of copyrighted elements to a minimum so I created my own!  I've got permission from Tim Wright to use the music, but he didn't do the SFX unfortunately.
3. Like in the original game, you can make sure you're selecting a right-facing Lemming by holding down the right arrow key whilst hovering over the Lemmings.
4. Yes, the digger animation was a bit weird!  It's fixed now.
5. I tried to get the release rate matched to that of the real game - is there a specific level where you noticed this?
6. The 'last 3 blocks' sound effect seems to be exactly on cue on my computer - what browser are you using?
7. I'll look into the builder problem - probably just over-zealous collision detection!
8. There is now a short sound to confirm you have clicked on a Lemming.
9. Again, collision detection!  I'll look into it.
10. What level did you manage to do this on, so I can try and replicate it?
11. You can now change release rate when the game is paused!


Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2011, 10:50:07 PM »
Thanks for the feedback Ron.  In what way does the Change Level button not work for you?  Is it an intermittent problem?

When you select a task the background turns light green - is this happening in your browser?  Should I change the highlight colour?

I'm currently working on that level 8 issue.

You can now activate pause by pressing 'p' as in the original Lemmings game, and you can now select tasks whilst paused.

Keep the suggestions coming!

Thank you for the improvements! My major complain about selection is that in the task bar there are both concave and convex icons, and they don't change its form, being selected or not. I think they all should be convex; the green colour is a nice idea, but the convex/concave sutff I have mention can easily confuse the players (or at least, it confuses me).

About the Change Level, well, it doesn't show a list of levels, allowing you to choose wathever you want. instead, it takes you to play the same level you were playing.

I have detected another bug: when a lemming walks by a bridge, and you order him to build over that bridge, he hardly can pile one or two blocks, and then he turn back, due to collision against the blocks of the bridge already built.

Oh, and another suggestion: to control the release rate with the + & - keys, just like in MS-DOS (sorry, I'm a nostalgic =))

Nice work, keep it up!

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2011, 11:01:55 PM »
You can now control the release with + and - on the numeric keypad  :thumbsup:

I see what you mean about the icons, I'll get those fixed shortly.

I'm looking into that bridge bug at the moment - seems to be some over-zealous collision detection!

Offline Clam

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2011, 11:18:31 PM »
Good effort! :thumbsup: I noticed a few bugs that haven't been mentioned yet:

- Can't assign climbers or bombers to falling lemmings
- There doesn't seem to be a quick way to restart a level. Nuking is a bit slow for my liking :-\
- Directional select isn't working for me (making Fun 9 difficult as mentioned above)
- Lemmings mine/bash too far into steel. Lemmings walking into partly destroyed steel seem to walk on it as if the steel was still there, instead of following the apparent shape of the terrain.

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2011, 12:07:28 AM »
Thanks Clam Spammer!

You can now no longer assign anything to falling lemmings (as per the Windows version of the game).

Re directional select, when you press the left or right arrow keys whilst hovering over a group of lemmings, does an arrow appear above the target/crosshair?

I've just made it so if you double-click the nuke icon when it's already selected it will end the game straight away, although I think I'll make it so that triple-clicking will have the same effect.

I'm looking into the 'hole making' function - it amends the actual level map in the correct way, it just occasionally displays it inaccurately!

Offline ccexplore

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2011, 01:03:20 AM »
You can now no longer assign anything to falling lemmings (as per the Windows version of the game).

Wait, did I read the above correctly?  I didn't realize the Windows version is this retarded.  I'm not aware of any other versions where you can't assign climbers or bombers to falling lemmings, and certainly not being able to assign floaters to falling lemmings would be ridiculous since some levels depend on it (eg. the fall off the starting entrance is already fatal).

I'm not at home right now but I'm definitely going to see if I can verify your claim above about the Windows version, it's pretty shocking to me. :o

Offline ccexplore

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2011, 01:26:29 AM »
My brief adventure with your game so far came to an unexpected halt at Fun 5.  I'm not sure what happened, but while nuking after getting enough lemmings into the exit, I somehow got the game into a berserk state where number of lemmings out decrements continuously below 0 and into negative.  It keeps going until all lemmings have exited, at which point the level does not exit however.  So I wait until the timer reaches 0:00, but even after that, the level still doesn't exit.  Now I think I'm stuck. :XD: [edit: I guess I can just refresh the page, although now I have to replay that level again.  Maybe later tonight.]

I was clicking on the nuke button quite a bit, and the game may or may not be on fast forward when I was nuking, unfortunately I don't remember precisely what happened and can't guarantee you'll get same results or not.

[edit: additional note of interest--come to think of it, I don't think I remember (not 100% sure though) seeing any of the lemmings actually exploding after repeated clicking of nuke button.  I think something went very very wrong in the game when I attempted to nuke]

See attached screenshot.

Pretty fun though otherwise, although I need to try it out on a browser that has better HTML5/js support, or a faster machine to begin with.

Offline finlay

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2011, 01:46:22 AM »
The sounds are very annoying, particularly the little screaming noise they make when they're exiting the level, and the release rate is all wrong – they're far too far apart for a 50 release rate in the first couple of levels.

Also, trying to integrate facebook is the most annoying thing ever in the entire world.

And on the level info/select screen, instead of "Click here to play", it should really be click anywhere to play. Mainly this is because my instinctive reaction is to click on the thumbnail of the level, and when this doesn't work I get confused.

Levels 4 and 5 are missing some terrain pieces, incidentally; the water on level 4 just cuts out in mid air...

And yeah, not being able to assign climber, floater and bomber during a fall is quite a serious omission and is guaranteed not the way it is on the Windows version given that, as the others say, some levels such as Tricky 12 require you to assign floaters to lemmings falling out of the trapdoor. A famous Lemmings trick is to assign a floater close to the floor in order to speed up a fall (because floaters fall slower than fallers) but still be able to land safely.

As for selection criteria, the most basic one that you should get into the program is that the lemming who was released most recently from the trapdoor is selected first – this will solve the Fun 9 problem for example. Another problem I found while doing Fun 9 is that I couldn't select a digger over the same spot as a blocker, but that's a bit of a niche problem, perhaps.

And as for the trapdoor, what happened to "Let's go!" and the trapdoor opening at the beginning of the level?  :(

(But I think it's cool that you've done this, at least! I'm just being nitpicky really...)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2011, 02:01:58 AM »
Mainly this is because my instinctive reaction is to click on the thumbnail of the level, and when this doesn't work I get confused.

Just so you know, I hit the exact same thing you did when I started playing for very first time. ;)  Took me a while too to figure out the "click here to play" link.  Would be better if it actually looks like a typical link on the webpage.  But yeah, click anywhere would be preferable and closer to how it is in most ports of Lemmings.

As for facebook integration, I'm not crazy about it but I don't care too much one way or another.  I have sounds turned off because I'm not at home.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2011, 02:07:43 AM »
I hit this in Fun 3 with blockers not quite working as expected.

I first set the left one at the bottom, when that didn't do it, I tried setting another one to the right of it.  I know that doesn't actually help me solve the level but I did at least expected the remaining lemmings to be trapped between those 2, but they actually walk through both of them which is certainly not what I expected.

Then again, no idea what the Windows behavior is for blockers.  In DOS you can't even overlap blockers but I think (?) you can in Windows, so I expect you could run into more unexpected behaviors with Windows behavior for blockers.  Still, the blockers don't look like they were overlapping in this particular case anyway.

==============

I also hit the "negative number of lemmings" issue again while playing Fun 3.  I still can't repro it consistently but since I've hit it twice within the hour, it shouldn't be that hard to repro.  Try some combination of the following:

1) set RR to 99
2) turn on FF
3) click on the nuke button many times quickly, especially while the closely spaced RR-99 stream of lemmings have started going into the exit

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2011, 03:32:52 PM »
Thanks for the feedback everyone.  Yes, you're right, you can assign tasks to fallers in the Windows version - I just tried it again and it works.  I did have to click a few times to get the task to assign correctly though (maybe my computer's just slow?!).  This has now been put back into my version.

I think I've fixed the nuke/negative number of lemmings bug - let me know if anyone manages to replicate it again.

I decided to add the option for FB integration so I didn't have to create a login system, and also to make it easier to share the game with friends.  It is entirely optional though.

I have now included the sound effects from the Windows version.

I've improved the release rate algorithm to match that of the Windows version (this is the version I'm basing this on: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dice-8715686005134-Lemmings-for-Windows/dp/B00005Q5EY/ref=dp_cp_ob_vg_h__title_1)

Offline DragonsLover

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2011, 06:07:31 PM »
Quote from: bombsite
I've improved the release rate algorithm to match that of the Windows version

The problem is that Windows version of Lemmings is crappy. You should better use the code of the Dos or Amiga version or a similar clone : Lemmix.

Quote from: bombsite
5. I tried to get the release rate matched to that of the real game - is there a specific level where you noticed this?

Any of them. While you increase/decrease the release rate, it may happens the release rate goes wrong when Lemmings are entering the level through the trapdoor(s) until you stop increasing or decreasing it.

Quote from: bombsite
6. The 'last 3 blocks' sound effect seems to be exactly on cue on my computer - what browser are you using?

Firefox 4.0. Make sure the sound plays when the brick hits the ground and not when the builder takes it in its backpack.

Quote from: bombsite
10. What level did you manage to do this on, so I can try and replicate it?

I don't remember, but it happened when I nuked all the lemmings. One of them splatted on the ground at the same time the counter turned to 0 which caused the splatting lemming to make his "oh no" animation and blow.

Oh, and I just noticed three more bugs on "A ladder would be handy" level:
- I clicked on a Lemming to give him a Blocker, but nothing happened, wasting my skill. I think the Lemming was in-mid air while I did so.
- Major problem with the Climber on the right side of the cliff : the Lemming climbs "inside" the wall when he reaches the tiny step at the middle of it. Screenshot below.
- Once the Climber reaches the top and I make him to turn around and falls back down, he splats on the floor instead of falling safely on the tiny steps on the wall. Yes: he falls 2 pixels away.

Other bugs:
- Falling lemmings do their "Oh no" animation when they blow.
- "P" key doesn't work to pause the game.
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Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2011, 09:29:44 PM »
DragonsLover - I've made some changes which make 'A Ladder Would Be Handy' work correctly.  Let me know if you think it's OK now.  The 'p' key pauses the game for me in Firefox and Chrome.  Earlier I did find that the left/right arrows didn't work though, but later they did, so maybe there's an intermittent problem with key detection?  I'll try and replicate it and fix if necessary.

Out of interest, what devices other than a PC has anyone got this working on?  I've played it on the Wii and it runs quite well (although with no sound).  Would be good to know if it works on iPad/iPhone or similar devices.

Offline DragonsLover

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2011, 10:00:56 PM »
Works better now, but there are still some serious bugs.

I'm now on "The Prison" and I just got seriously annoyed by all the bugs that makes the level almost impossible to solve.

- Lemmings can't dig through builders' stairs that are leading to the left.
- Traps work very weirdly and their animations freeze. I also got a Lemming to walk on the metallic tip of a flame thrower trap.
- Calling nuke when a Lemming is about to drown causes the game to freeze entirely.
- This one pisses me off and it's also a major bug in the Windows version: when a builder lays a brick that touches a wall, he stops and turns around. AARRGGHH!! This should NOT happen. ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" /> He must lay an additional brick or two before turning back as in the Dos and Amiga versions.
- Lemmings can't fall through tiny gaps depending on the direction they're walking. I also got Lemmings to cross over a 2 pixels gap.
- At the top of "Lend a helping hand..." level, on the right side of the pillar situated at the right of the exit, it's impossible for a lemming to mine to the left.
- Still on "Lend a helping hand...", when a builder reaches a spike trap, he may stop and turn around.
- I even got builders to stop building when they almost reached a wall, leaving a tiny gap.
- On "Watch out, there's traps about", I got a miner to mine through steel. The weirdest thing is when he stopped mining : he left an invisible wall. :o
- Lemmings can hop weirdly as they climb one or 2 pixels height platform.
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Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2011, 10:24:07 PM »
Thanks for the DragonsLover, that'll keep me busy!

The traps are animated GIFs at the moment.  I'm thinking of changing all animated items to a different format as this method is not ideal (although it is the easiest to program!)

My Lemmings used to be able to build slightly into walls, but they sometimes got trapped in the wall so I changed it.  I'll look into changing it back.

Re the 'invisible wall', that's a graphical bug which I need to fix - the hole doesn't actually exist in the level code, it's just visual!

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2011, 12:04:35 AM »
A few changes have been made based on DragonsLover's bug reports.  Building through stairs now works correctly.  You can now build slightly into walls (without getting stuck!).  Climbing/walking over rough terrain now works better (selecting Lemmings on rough terrain was previously temperamental).

I tried out Lemmix - does this work in the same way as the Amiga version?  As pointed out, it seems to have some differences to the 'Lemmings for Windows' version I've got.

Offline finlay

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2011, 01:29:10 AM »
It's supposed to emulate precisely the DOS version, actually. cc is the one to ask about the differences; all i know is that they're not as major as the differences between DOS and Windows, some of which really affect gameplay.

(I remember playing the PS1 version, which I think is basically a straight port of the Windows version with a nicer interface, and getting really annoyed at some of the differences, particularly the bug with the builder turning back too soon and not giving you a chance to bash through a wall. But then I've also found this in the DOS version too when the builder is facing left, for some reason...)

Offline DragonsLover

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2011, 04:28:25 AM »
New bugs that weren't there previously:

- Climbers cannot climb walls when facing left.
- I got a Builder to build through a builder's stair

Quote from: bombsite
A few changes have been made based on DragonsLover's bug reports.  Building through stairs now works correctly.  You can now build slightly into walls (without getting stuck!).

It's still not the perfection. I once again got a builder to stop building and turn around even though he didn't reach the wall, leaving a tiny 1 pixel gap where Lemmings could still walk over.

Also:

- Builders and Miners go through Blockers when they should turn around and keep working without returning back to a Walker.

I'd be curious to check the code, if it's possible.
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Offline Clam

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2011, 08:19:30 AM »
I found another potentially serious bug: building over the exit makes it inaccessible to lemmings, even if it doesn't touch the part where the lemmings should go in. It remains inaccessible if you destroy the bridge.

Also, double-clicking nuke to quit (like you mentioned above) isn't working. Anyway, I'd prefer a button or hotkey to instantly restart.

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2011, 01:38:58 PM »
Climbers can now climb left (this bug appeared after fixing a different bug!).

Immediate game over can now be achieved by pressing CTRL and Q. 

Splatting/drowning Lemmings which were also exploders shouldn't now explode after splatting/drowning.

In one of my previous posts I said building through stairs now works correctly - I actually meant digging through stairs.

DragonsLover - I'm not sure what you mean when you say you got a builder to build through a builder's stair - were the two sets of stairs facing opposite directions?


Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2011, 02:31:55 PM »
I have found problems to assign blockers on certain areas of the peaks in the Level 20 (There's A Lot Of Them About). Also, the build-over-the-exit problem persists there.

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2011, 03:22:31 PM »
I have found problems to assign blockers on certain areas of the peaks in the Level 20 (There's A Lot Of Them About). Also, the build-over-the-exit problem persists there.

I've made a change which seems to have fixed the first problem you mentioned - I've had a go and seem to be able to assign a blocker anywhere along those sections of peaks.

I'm trying to replicate the build-over-the-exit problem now.  Do you also find that steps are invisible in front of the exit?

Offline DragonsLover

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2011, 04:52:29 PM »
Quote from: bombsite
DragonsLover - I'm not sure what you mean when you say you got a builder to build through a builder's stair - were the two sets of stairs facing opposite directions?

Yes, it occured on "A ladder would be handy". I made a Lemming to builder over the pit on the bridge and when he turned back, I made him build again so that the top of the stair he was building would reach the top of the stair already built, but the Lemming stopped and turned around for no reason. When I made him to build again to cover the gap, he kept building through the stair.

Screenshots below.

Also, I got another bug with the climber on the same level : when he climbs on the wall at the right, he keeps climbing even when he reaches the middle step, making him to climb "in the air" until he reaches the top of the cliff. Screenshot below.
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Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2011, 07:25:12 PM »

I've made a change which seems to have fixed the first problem you mentioned - I've had a go and seem to be able to assign a blocker anywhere along those sections of peaks.

I'm trying to replicate the build-over-the-exit problem now.  Do you also find that steps are invisible in front of the exit?

Yes, there were invisible bricks once a lemming pass the mouth of the devil. Despite you excavate the bridge, the lemmings are unable to enter in the shelter.

Ah, by the way, another bug I discover: if you force a lemming to build a bridge once he has turned back from a blocker, well, he builts it, but when he returns to the blocker & turns back again, there seems to be an invisible "fence" or wall on his way, which the lemming jumps without problems. It's another bug, but it's funny  :thumbsup:

Thank you a lot for your efforts!  :D It's nice to enjoy again all these ancient levels for a good cause!  :thumbsup:

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2011, 07:56:51 PM »
Thanks Ron!  I was watching a video about the making of the original Lemmings game and apparently that was released with a few bugs in it - they said whilst a Lemming is shrugging after building steps, you can click on him to become a climber and he'll just remain in the shrugging position!  I'm not sure which versions this got into though.

Offline Clam

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2011, 09:43:18 PM »
That's a bug in the DOS version of Lemmings. And yes, there are plenty of bugs in the original games - the permanent shrugger is merely a graphical bug though, there are many more serious bugs than that :D. I don't know if the developers have ever heard of the "sliding" glitch - they'd probably flip if they found out! :P

And this is another reminder that I need to restart the glitch thread. Hopefully I'll have some free time for that by the end of the week.

Offline finlay

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2011, 11:00:11 PM »
Quote from: bombsite
DragonsLover - I'm not sure what you mean when you say you got a builder to build through a builder's stair - were the two sets of stairs facing opposite directions?

Yes, it occured on "A ladder would be handy". I made a Lemming to builder over the pit on the bridge and when he turned back, I made him build again so that the top of the stair he was building would reach the top of the stair already built, but the Lemming stopped and turned around for no reason. When I made him to build again to cover the gap, he kept building through the stair.

Screenshots below.

Also, I got another bug with the climber on the same level : when he climbs on the wall at the right, he keeps climbing even when he reaches the middle step, making him to climb "in the air" until he reaches the top of the cliff. Screenshot below.
An explanation of the builder mechanics here will probably need to take into account the fact that the two areas on a lemming's body that the game checks to see whether it should turn back or not are its feet and its head. If a lemming approaches a block but doesn't hit its head or its feet, it shouldn't turn back. Lemmini has this bug too, annoyingly. And of course, whether the bricks touch other blocks is neither here nor there.

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2011, 11:24:22 PM »
Quote from: bombsite
DragonsLover - I'm not sure what you mean when you say you got a builder to build through a builder's stair - were the two sets of stairs facing opposite directions?

Yes, it occured on "A ladder would be handy". I made a Lemming to builder over the pit on the bridge and when he turned back, I made him build again so that the top of the stair he was building would reach the top of the stair already built, but the Lemming stopped and turned around for no reason. When I made him to build again to cover the gap, he kept building through the stair.

Screenshots below.

Also, I got another bug with the climber on the same level : when he climbs on the wall at the right, he keeps climbing even when he reaches the middle step, making him to climb "in the air" until he reaches the top of the cliff. Screenshot below.
An explanation of the builder mechanics here will probably need to take into account the fact that the two areas on a lemming's body that the game checks to see whether it should turn back or not are its feet and its head. If a lemming approaches a block but doesn't hit its head or its feet, it shouldn't turn back. Lemmini has this bug too, annoyingly. And of course, whether the bricks touch other blocks is neither here nor there.

I think my problem was that I started off basing this on two inaccurate versions of Lemmings - DHTML Lemmings and Lemmings for Windows!  I've started basing it more on Lemmix now.

I've just made a few amendments which seems to make building work correctly.

Offline Clam

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2011, 07:03:38 AM »
The directional select seems to fail at times. I think this is because there's a slight delay between clicking the lemming and the skill getting assigned, so if the lemming turns around in that time it will perform the skill in the wrong direction. So when the lemmings are in a tight space and constantly turning around, directional select always fails.

And the splat start on "Steel Works" isn't splatting. Not that I'm complaining :P

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2011, 09:04:59 AM »
The directional select seems to fail at times. I think this is because there's a slight delay between clicking the lemming and the skill getting assigned, so if the lemming turns around in that time it will perform the skill in the wrong direction. So when the lemmings are in a tight space and constantly turning around, directional select always fails.

I'll look into that... 

And the splat start on "Steel Works" isn't splatting. Not that I'm complaining :P

That's another problem with it being originally based on the Windows version - Steel Works doesn't start with a splat!  Does anyone know what the correct fall distance is so I can fix this?

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2011, 09:38:52 AM »
The safe fall distance in DOS is actually an enigma in itself. It's 60 pixels, but you gain another 3 if the lemming transitioned from walking to falling. It's probably safe enough to just make it 63. EDIT: not sure about that. You might have to replicate the "60+3" thing to cause splatting in "Steel Works", as well as making "We All Fall Down" behave the same as in DOS (where you can save diggers by making, say, every second lemming dig - if you just make the safe distance 60, every lemming has to dig or it will splat).

Since it's relevant to Mayhem 1, I should also mention that lemmings spawn 14 pixels down from the top of the entrance - in this case, the entrance is at the very top of the screen (y=0) and the lemmings enter at y=14. (AFAIK, the position of a lemming is considered as a single pixel, which when walking is in the row of pixels beneath its feet.) If you start them too low, then they still won't splat even if you change the safe fall distance.

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2011, 11:14:50 AM »
The safe fall distance in DOS is actually an enigma in itself. It's 60 pixels, but you gain another 3 if the lemming transitioned from walking to falling. It's probably safe enough to just make it 63. EDIT: not sure about that. You might have to replicate the "60+3" thing to cause splatting in "Steel Works", as well as making "We All Fall Down" behave the same as in DOS (where you can save diggers by making, say, every second lemming dig - if you just make the safe distance 60, every lemming has to dig or it will splat).

Since it's relevant to Mayhem 1, I should also mention that lemmings spawn 14 pixels down from the top of the entrance - in this case, the entrance is at the very top of the screen (y=0) and the lemmings enter at y=14. (AFAIK, the position of a lemming is considered as a single pixel, which when walking is in the row of pixels beneath its feet.) If you start them too low, then they still won't splat even if you change the safe fall distance.

OK, I had the fall distance right but the Lemmings were coming out of the exit in the wrong place!

What is the technique in 'We All Fall Down' to complete it by making only every other Lemming a digger?  I can achieve it in my version by setting release rate to 35, but this only works because the previous digger has decreased the fall distance.

Whilst testing this, I also fixed another bug which made the Lemmings release at a strange rate whilst pressing + or - to change the release rate.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2011, 12:01:57 PM »
Hey,

a nice game! Do you wish to replicate the L1 physics as exactly as possible? For that case, here's the physics oddities I found:
  • Fallers seem to be falling too slowly. They should fall at 3 low-res pixels per frame, it looks you have them fall at 2.
  • Floaters also fall too slowly, should be 2 low-res pixels per frame, currently is 1.
  • Freshly assigned diggers remove terrain below foot. This problem vanishes after their first cycle.
  • Explosion craters appear rather late.
  • Can't assign miner on a flat horizontal surface! It gets cancelled immediately.
  • Miner continues to mine without ground, and bottom of miner tunnel doesn't look like in Amiga/DOS L1.
  • Leftwards climbers appear to be inside the terrain by 1 low-res pixel, and when they fall, they appear to be away from the wall by 1 high-res pixel (unless I didn't observe it properly).
Also some nonphysics oddities:
  • I was annoyed by having to login to permanently unlock levels. Thus, I've just tested the practise levels, not some others with full skillsets. Logging in for highscores is fine, but the majority of any site's users will not bother to make accounts. You might consider opening everything from the start. For the logged-in users, you could mark levels which they've solved.
  • Selection priority. You always assign to the frontmost lemming. Instead, you want to assign to the lem who makes the most sense (User wants to assign to worker if the skill isn't the same, but to walker otherwise. Can't assign floater to a faller behind a floater atm.)
  • Skill panel selection sound plays on beginning of level.
  • Exits and waters won't appear when the level is first drawn to the screen. They'll only appear shortly after.
  • Slight usability issue: There's two buttons of interest on the results screen: Next, and Again. What do I hit if I want to return to the level selection? Trial and error necessary to find this out.
  • No priority invert with right mouse button, but I don't know whether that is implementable in a JS game at all. There is no level in L1 which needs it anyway.
-- Simon

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2011, 12:24:27 PM »
That seems to be the version that real Lemmings fans prefer, so yes I'm trying to replicate that as closely as possible.  The issue with explosion craters appearing late I think is due to the explosion hole graphic not being loaded in time (the same as the water and exit graphics sometimes not appearing straight away) - I'll look into this.  The 'hole making' functions all need a bit of work doing to them which is what I'm currently looking into.

You can unlock levels without logging in - it remembers you by an encoded version of your IP address.  What does anyone else think of allowing access to all levels without unlocking?

Re selection priority - does the original Lemmings do this?

Do you think the 'Next' button should be renamed 'Next/Change Level', or would you rather have an extra 'Level Select' button?

What does priority invert actually do?

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2011, 01:03:14 PM »
Selection priority: Yes, Lemmings does this mostly well. It gets worse in Lemmings 2. The L1 behavior is generally expected, it feels naturally, and it's not very sophisticated both to implement or to use.

Priority invert in Lemmings simply excludes all workers from the check of what lem to assign to. The IMO best version, however, works as follows. Regular priority is A) workers first, then others (maybe with nuances based on the different skills), if two lems tie by this rule, then B) decide by proximity to the mouse curser, if two lems tie again, C) take first one to spawn. Inverted priority still checks A, then B, then C, but inverts the priorities inside A and C. Note that this may well be overkill, and that priority invert isn't of high priority to implement.

The Next button does it job very well, clarifying it by renaming should work.

-- Simon

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2011, 01:37:25 PM »
I've now amended it so that you can't target a Lemming if it is already performing the selected task.  I have also changed the Next Level link to say Next/Change Level.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2011, 03:49:39 PM »
Blockers work veeeeeery weirdly on "There's a lot of them about" level. Lemmings are either trapped inside the Blockers or they turn back when they reach the blocker's arm on the other side or they simply pass through him like if he doesn't exist at all. It's just annoying to find the correct spot to avoid them to cause a bug and restart the level over and over again when it fails. ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" />
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Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2011, 09:30:08 PM »
Blockers work veeeeeery weirdly on "There's a lot of them about" level. Lemmings are either trapped inside the Blockers or they turn back when they reach the blocker's arm on the other side or they simply pass through him like if he doesn't exist at all. It's just annoying to find the correct spot to avoid them to cause a bug and restart the level over and over again when it fails. ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" />

That's now fixed.  I actually found whilst playing Lemmix on this level that if you place a blocker in a certain place of some of the peaks the other Lemmings just walk through them!

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2011, 09:48:39 PM »
What is the technique in 'We All Fall Down' to complete it by making only every other Lemming a digger?  I can achieve it in my version by setting release rate to 35, but this only works because the previous digger has decreased the fall distance.

That's exactly it. The digger reduces the height of the platform, so the next lemming can fall down safely without having to dig itself.


You can unlock levels without logging in - it remembers you by an encoded version of your IP address.  What does anyone else think of allowing access to all levels without unlocking?

I was pleasantly surprised to find that I can carry on where I left off when I switch computers. Good call there :thumbsup:

I think it would be ok to have all levels unlocked from the start, since you can't get on the leaderboard unless you complete the level. Of course, as mentioned already, it would be better if you didn't have to login through Facebook.

Which brings up an obvious question that no one's asked yet: are you planning to add in the other 80 levels?

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2011, 10:08:38 PM »
I was pleasantly surprised to find that I can carry on where I left off when I switch computers. Good call there :thumbsup:

Yes, I find that useful too for making sure everything works the same on different computers!

I think it would be ok to have all levels unlocked from the start, since you can't get on the leaderboard unless you complete the level. Of course, as mentioned already, it would be better if you didn't have to login through Facebook.

I might add an option to add your name without logging into Facebook.  Would anyone consider logging in via other sites such as Twitter?  And why don't people like logging in through Facebook?  It doesn't post spam all over your friends walls like some FB games!

Which brings up an obvious question that no one's asked yet: are you planning to add in the other 80 levels?

Well, currently I'm using level data from DHTML Lemmings which only included 40 levels.  And I don't know if it's in the same format as the standard Lemmings level data (I doubt it).  Is there a guide anywhere detailing the data format/structure etc?

When I've got the game itself working properly, I also plan on adding a level editor/creator which would allow you to save your levels online and share with others.  :)

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2011, 10:50:39 PM »
Selection priority: Yes, Lemmings does this mostly well. It gets worse in Lemmings 2. The L1 behavior is generally expected, it feels naturally, and it's not very sophisticated both to implement or to use.

Priority invert in Lemmings simply excludes all workers from the check of what lem to assign to. The IMO best version, however, works as follows. Regular priority is A) workers first, then others (maybe with nuances based on the different skills), if two lems tie by this rule, then B) decide by proximity to the mouse curser, if two lems tie again, C) take first one to spawn. Inverted priority still checks A, then B, then C, but inverts the priorities inside A and C. Note that this may well be overkill, and that priority invert isn't of high priority to implement.

The Next button does it job very well, clarifying it by renaming should work.

-- Simon
It's last one to spawn, actually, and I don't think proximity to the mouse cursor is checked, because if two lemmings fall inside the mouse cursor square it is always the last one to spawn that is picked. Also, if the inverting priority (which IME actually just takes out the check for workers altogether) thing doesn't work with the right mouse button, it's worth noting that the Mac version, which was designed for one-buttoned mice, has you hold down a key like alt or control. This might work better with JS.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2011, 10:56:19 PM »
I think it would be ok to have all levels unlocked from the start, since you can't get on the leaderboard unless you complete the level. Of course, as mentioned already, it would be better if you didn't have to login through Facebook.

I might add an option to add your name without logging into Facebook.  Would anyone consider logging in via other sites such as Twitter?  And why don't people like logging in through Facebook?  It doesn't post spam all over your friends walls like some FB games!
It doesn't? Well, this isn't particularly obvious... it's generally expected that if a game wants you to log in via twitter or facebook it also wants to spam your feeds. Plus, I don't particularly want my full name on the internet if I can help it... but then I have spelled my surname on facebook with czech characters so that people can't search for me anyway so I'm probably just being fussy. Have you ever seen the login system on TVTropes? It's quite a simple one: pick a name and password (which doesn't have any restrictions like length or having to have numbers and letters, since it's not like it's worth anyone's time to steal it) and the site remembers it and puts a little cookie on your computer with just the name and password. No email confirmation or anything like that, because that's just annoying.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2011, 11:05:57 PM »
And why don't people like logging in through Facebook?  It doesn't post spam all over your friends walls like some FB games!

The likely reason is avoidance of Facebook and similar sites. I even have several different Google/Yahoo/etc. accounts for third-party sites that use Open-ID (maybe consider supporting these), to minimize inter-site tracking. I'm paranoid in general though. :-)

Well, currently I'm using level data from DHTML Lemmings which only included 40 levels.  And I don't know if it's in the same format as the standard Lemmings level data (I doubt it).  Is there a guide anywhere detailing the data format/structure etc?

Yes, there are thorough description of DOS L1's binary files.

You will probably know that Sony is the current copyright holder for Lemmings, and Sony tends to attack trademark and copyright infringements more often than other companies. The chance that they'll cease-and-desist you is still extremely slim. You should just remember to avoid some obvious pitfalls: Don't try to push your game into Apple's appstore or similar depots where its maintainers thoroughly review each entry. Don't ask Sony whether they're fine with the game. I don't want to spread fear, nor do I want you to stop making the game -- you are preserving culture and thus doing the right thing. (If you're interested, this old post of mine compares the fates of other third-party Lemmings clones.)

-- Simon

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2011, 11:42:45 PM »
Plus, I don't particularly want my full name on the internet if I can help it...

Good point.

Have you ever seen the login system on TVTropes? It's quite a simple one

Simple is good!  I'll look into it.

You will probably know that Sony is the current copyright holder for Lemmings, and Sony tends to attack trademark and copyright infringements more often than other companies. The chance that they'll cease-and-desist you is still extremely slim. You should just remember to avoid some obvious pitfalls: Don't try to push your game into Apple's appstore or similar depots where its maintainers thoroughly review each entry. Don't ask Sony whether they're fine with the game. I don't want to spread fear, nor do I want you to stop making the game -- you are preserving culture and thus doing the right thing.

I think I read that post before I started making the game!  I contacted Tim Wright and Mike Dailly who said it should be OK as long as it's not for profit.  Tim gave me permission to use his original Amiga music which he still owns the copyright to.  I believe Mike said he doesn't own any of the rights to Lemmings any more unfortunately.  I did message Take2 via their website (I didn't give any details as to the whereabouts of the game etc.) asking if they were OK with this kind of thing if it's not for profit, but they didn't reply anyway.  I don't even know if they actually own any rights to Lemmings?

The problems with the other versions seems to have occured due to the creator trying to sell the product, and also using the Lemmings logos and trademarks.

I've also noted under my game that the original Lemmings games are still available to purchase which may keep Sony happy.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2011, 06:43:05 AM »
- I'm now stuck on "Poles Apart": Diggers won't dig through the poles. They immediately stop when they dig the first row. In fact, I got the same bug occuring when a Digger dug next to another Digger hole.
- Talking about Diggers, they should keep digging even if there's a pixel or two in their "digging area". I got a Digger to dig in a stair and immediately falls afterwards without making a gap in the stair.
- In some cases, it's impossible to assign a Miner or a Digger to a Lemming, especially over a stair. For the Miner, it's like if the Lemming must be next to a wall.
- It may occurs that a basher stops bashing when he almost reaches the end of his tunnel, causing him and his followers to be stuck so that I must assign an additional Basher.
- Assigning a Miner to a Lemming over a 1-2 pixel height platform causes him to fall through the platform without leaving a hole. This can be best experienced in "It's hero time" level. The same thing occurs when there's 1-2 pixel remaining to mine which can be annoying since Lemmings above can't fall along with the Miner.
- I already told that one : Miners can sometimes mine through steel and if we assign another skill to them, they become stuck even if there's void around.
- Similarly, I got a Bomber to make a hole in the steel. Well, walkers could walk "in the air" above where the steel area is.
- When holding the LMB over a .GIF object or a stair to scroll the map, it may stops scrolling.
- The climber climbing "in the air" bug like it was the case on "A ladder would be handy" is still there.
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Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2011, 02:23:12 PM »
- I'm now stuck on "Poles Apart": Diggers won't dig through the poles. They immediately stop when they dig the first row. In fact, I got the same bug occuring when a Digger dug next to another Digger hole.
- Talking about Diggers, they should keep digging even if there's a pixel or two in their "digging area". I got a Digger to dig in a stair and immediately falls afterwards without making a gap in the stair.
- In some cases, it's impossible to assign a Miner or a Digger to a Lemming, especially over a stair. For the Miner, it's like if the Lemming must be next to a wall.
- It may occurs that a basher stops bashing when he almost reaches the end of his tunnel, causing him and his followers to be stuck so that I must assign an additional Basher.
- Assigning a Miner to a Lemming over a 1-2 pixel height platform causes him to fall through the platform without leaving a hole. This can be best experienced in "It's hero time" level. The same thing occurs when there's 1-2 pixel remaining to mine which can be annoying since Lemmings above can't fall along with the Miner.
- I already told that one : Miners can sometimes mine through steel and if we assign another skill to them, they become stuck even if there's void around.
- Similarly, I got a Bomber to make a hole in the steel. Well, walkers could walk "in the air" above where the steel area is.

I've made improvements to the hole making functions so most of the above issues should now be fixed.  Selection diggers and miners on bumpy terrain may be temperamental and explosion holes may sometimes appear in steel to the left of or above an exploded Lemming but they do not actually exist in the map - I am currently trying to fix these bugs.

Also, I've changed the 'Instant Death' hotkey to SHIFT-Q as CTRL-Q shuts down Firefox in Ubuntu!

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2011, 06:34:29 PM »
It's still not perfect: I got a major problem on "The Crossroads" where Bashers were bashing IN THE AIR! :o
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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2011, 06:44:38 PM »
It's still not perfect: I got a major problem on "The Crossroads" where Bashers were bashing IN THE AIR! :o

Do you mean after they had been bashing, they still continued for a bit?

I've been playing 'Lend a helping hand' in Lemmix and I've noticed that if you explode a Lemming next to a steel wall with soft ground underneath it will put a hole in the ground and the steel.  Is this how it's supposed to work?

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #52 on: June 22, 2011, 07:27:53 PM »
Steel detection and steel removal are hightly abstruse subjects in L1. An exploder will either remove all pixels around him or none, depending on what he's standing on. Same for basher, miner, or digger swings.

You will get weird behaviors to consider if you want 100 percent L1 physics. The game keeps an array of effects for all locations of a level. Blockers generate a field of influence which cancels steel areas on this array, and the old information gets written back if the blocker is removed. This leads to exploits where exit areas are moved by falling oh-noing blockers.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #53 on: June 22, 2011, 08:51:32 PM »
I've been playing 'Lend a helping hand' in Lemmix and I've noticed that if you explode a Lemming next to a steel wall with soft ground underneath it will put a whole in the ground and the steel.  Is this how it's supposed to work?

Well, it's how it works in DOS and Amiga etc. Lemmings, but just like the permanent shrugging lemming bug, not every single quirk needs to or should be emulated.  In the case of steel handling, it should be noted that by Lemmings 2, even the DOS/Amiga versions have improved to the behavior similar to what you currently have (minus the display issue), where steel is truly indestructible and any moves close to steel will only take out the non-steel terrain.  AFAIK no levels in Lemmings or ONML require the lazy steel handling behavior you observed.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2011, 11:40:35 PM »
In the case of steel handling, it should be noted that by Lemmings 2, even the DOS/Amiga versions have improved to the behavior similar to what you currently have (minus the display issue)

Explosion holes are now displaying correctly.

Which brings up an obvious question that no one's asked yet: are you planning to add in the other 80 levels?

I believe a lot of these extra levels are actually based on the existing levels I've got, so it may be easier than I thought to add them.  I've got a spreadsheet which I found on these forums detailing the differences so I'll look into it.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #55 on: June 23, 2011, 01:15:48 AM »
Do you mean after they had been bashing, they still continued for a bit?

Just look at the picture below and you'll see.
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Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2011, 08:24:32 AM »
That's some impressive bashing!!  I'll look into that and get it fixed.  I think the basher turned round because he'd reached the edge of the level.  What would usually happen in this case?  Should they just fall off?

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2011, 09:44:23 AM »
In DOS Lemmings, they turn around at the left edge of the level, and fall off at the right. It makes more sense for them to just vanish off the map though. If you ever decide to add Oh No More Lemmings levels as well, there's one level where the left "wall" actually comes into play, but you can deal with that later if need be.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2011, 12:12:49 PM »
Keep in mind that Clam's "edges of level" and bombsite's "edges of level" are not quite the same thing.  For example based on how bombsite's scrolling works, he's thinking of the logical edges of level, beyond which there is nothing but blackness (and so in his version, it won't even let you scroll past those logical boundaries, which is, well, logical and sensible).  However, Clam's thinking is of the DOS version's concept of level boundaries, where the level area has a constant size (about 1580x160 in DOS) even if most levels don't make full use of the entire area, and edge effects only come into play at the edges of the full 1580-pixel width.

I'm personally open to all intepretations of edges and edge effects.  It is true though that since the DOS version's "edges" are typically far away from the level's main areas of activity, you typically can't make use of edge effects to your benefit.  Also, obviously turnaround edge effects are more advantageous to the player than edge effects that kill lemmings.  So if you have the edges of levels actually match the real extent of the level like bombsite does, but also implement turnaround edge effects, then you are potentially opening new ways of solving the levels that were never intended by the original level designers.  Thus there is some argument supporting Clam's suggestion to just kill off lemmings that have moved past the level edges.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2011, 12:19:30 PM »
Just look at the picture below and you'll see.

 :D ;P :thumbsup: I don't think I've ever been so entertained by a lemmings screenshot, especially with your funny comments! ;P Thanks for making my day. ;)

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #60 on: June 23, 2011, 12:34:07 PM »
If you ever decide to add Oh No More Lemmings levels as well, there's one level where the left "wall" actually comes into play, but you can deal with that later if need be.

Are you thinking of Crazy 18?  It's true that people playing that level will likely run into the edge effect on that level due to its design, but I've checked and the level is certainly solvable without relying on it.  So even for that level it is not absolutely necessary to implement turnaround edge effects.  Or you can add some extra terrain to provide similar behavior.

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #61 on: June 23, 2011, 12:37:30 PM »
However, Clam's thinking is of the DOS version's concept of level boundaries, where the level area has a constant size (about 1580x160 in DOS) even if most levels don't make full use of the entire area, and edge effects only come into play at the edges of the full 1580-pixel width.

So do Lemmings still fall when they get to 1580 pixels across, or do they just fall off the visible edge of the level?

Just look at the picture below and you'll see.

 :D ;P :thumbsup: I don't think I've ever been so entertained by a lemmings screenshot, especially with your funny comments! ;P Thanks for making my day. ;)

I thought I'd make the game a bit easier by allowing you to bash your way through entire levels!!

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #62 on: June 23, 2011, 01:29:30 PM »
Just look at the picture below and you'll see.

 :D ;P :thumbsup: I don't think I've ever been so entertained by a lemmings screenshot, especially with your funny comments! ;P Thanks for making my day. ;)

Hahaha! My pleasure! ;P
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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #63 on: June 24, 2011, 02:20:06 AM »
Are you thinking of Crazy 18?

Yep, that's the one. There's also Fun 23 / Taxing 17 in original Lemmings, where you could reasonably reach the edges of the level. Like ccexplore says, if you want to make the lemmings turn around at the edge, you could put a wall there, but by default you could just make them disappear off the level.

Keep in mind that there are some levels where in DOS you can get to the exit by building out beyond the end of the terrain, using a blocker, and building back the other way, like Tricky 3 and Tricky 8. If you cut off the level right where the terrain ends, you're limiting the possible solutions to these levels. Granted, these aren't the "normal" solutions to these levels, but half the fun of Lemmings is solving levels in different ways. :)

There's also the top of the level to consider. In DOS, this acts as a solid wall, but again it might make more sense to just kill lemmings that go off the top. However, some levels (eg. Mayhem 23) will play differently if you change this, so it might be best to leave it as a solid wall. Like Crazy 18, the free wall can help, but it's not absolutely necessary.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #64 on: June 24, 2011, 02:58:17 PM »
There's also the top of the level to consider. In DOS, this acts as a solid wall

Hmm, builders get cancelled by the ceiling, but then continue to walk forward instead of turning around.

And bashing partly through the ceiling writes garbage into memory. :]

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #65 on: June 24, 2011, 10:16:44 PM »
In Fun 5 - 'You need bashers this time' - How is bashing through the 'netting' supposed to work?  In the Windows version they seem to just stop bashing when there's nothing directly beneath them, and in Lemmix they seem to move down slightly whilst still bashing if there's nothing directly beneath them and then stop bashing shortly afterwards.  Do they bash if there's something in front of them at any height, or is it only if there's something above a certain point?

Offline finlay

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #66 on: June 24, 2011, 11:36:52 PM »
Are you thinking of Crazy 18?

Yep, that's the one. There's also Fun 23 / Taxing 17 in original Lemmings, where you could reasonably reach the edges of the level. Like ccexplore says, if you want to make the lemmings turn around at the edge, you could put a wall there, but by default you could just make them disappear off the level.

Keep in mind that there are some levels where in DOS you can get to the exit by building out beyond the end of the terrain, using a blocker, and building back the other way, like Tricky 3 and Tricky 8. If you cut off the level right where the terrain ends, you're limiting the possible solutions to these levels. Granted, these aren't the "normal" solutions to these levels, but half the fun of Lemmings is solving levels in different ways. :)

There's also the top of the level to consider. In DOS, this acts as a solid wall, but again it might make more sense to just kill lemmings that go off the top. However, some levels (eg. Mayhem 23) will play differently if you change this, so it might be best to leave it as a solid wall. Like Crazy 18, the free wall can help, but it's not absolutely necessary.
On the PSX version, and as far as I know, the Windows version, the Lemmings don't get turned around by the ceiling; they will start to walk over it. If you build up to the ceiling, it can start to remove your steps, which can potentially get annoying. But Mayhem 23 is a good example of a level that becomes very difficult at the start, and one has to use two diggers at the start of "Mind the Step" so that the lemming ends up facing the left. You'd think you could just build up to the ceiling on the left of the entrance for a quick backroute, but as I say, I think they attempted to close that loophole by not letting you build higher than a certain height. It's annoying, that whole thing...

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #67 on: June 25, 2011, 09:38:46 AM »
Quote
In Fun 5 - 'You need bashers this time' - How is bashing through the 'netting' supposed to work?  In the Windows version they seem to just stop bashing when there's nothing directly beneath them, and in Lemmix they seem to move down slightly whilst still bashing if there's nothing directly beneath them and then stop bashing shortly afterwards.  Do they bash if there's something in front of them at any height, or is it only if there's something above a certain point?

Well, the exact way it works is something like this:
  1) When lemming is at (x, y) with y being the pixel immediately underneath its feet (ie. the pixel lemming is standing on), immediately after carrying out the bash stroke, it checks only the four pixels (x+8, y-6), (x+9, y-6), (x+10, y-6), (x+11, y-6) for terrain, and only on every other stroke (1st, 3rd, ...)*.  y-6 means 6 pixels up, and x+8 means 8 pixels horizontally away to whichever direction the lemming is facing.  If at least one of the 4 pixels are terrain, then bashing continues after a short bit of moving forward, otherwise basher stops now and transitions to faller.  It's of note that horizontally, DOS Lemming's bash stroke reaches up to x+7 horizontally, so essentially it is a check of having more terrain just immediately beyond what has been bashed.
  2) The basher moves ahead 5 pixels horizontally before the next bash stroke.  While moving ahead, whenever the ground drops by up to 2 pixels, lemming will simply drop with the terrain but otherwise continue on, otherwise it stops bashing and transitions to falling.

*more likely a bug in the programming rather than intentional behavior.  Some versions like the Mac actually checks on every stroke as expected.

So in short answer, whether they continue or stop bashing is based only on having terrain just immediately beyond the current end of the bash tunnel, and only at a specific height.  Also there's a slight tolerance to dropping that will not interrupt the bashing.

I think the basic concept behind it is that the lemming has to be a little bit beneath ground level, or having a true wall ahead, to be able to continue to bash, ie., they decide it's a little ridiculous if you can do something like dig down merely 1 or 2 pixels on flat ground and then be able to bash on without stopping.  That's not to say the actual algorithm will produce logical results in every case, but for the most part it produces reasonable behavior.

The netting terrain in Lemmings seems to be not quite dense enough to support continual bashing with the DOS algorithm, but even if it were dense enough, you would not expect a perfectly horizontal tunnel as a result either, due to the fall tolerance behavior.

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #68 on: June 27, 2011, 05:36:32 PM »
Bashing has now been improved as per detailed info from ccexplore, and also DragonsLover's screenshot of the 'super basher'  :)  (it still needs a small bit of 'tweaking' though to get it exactly right).

Also, you can now select task types by pressing the keys 1-8 (top row, not numeric keypad).

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #69 on: June 27, 2011, 07:32:51 PM »
I can't seem to get bashers to work at all now, I can't even assign them. Miners also make the game freeze for me.
Fast forward feels too slow as well but that's just me being impatient.  :P

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #70 on: June 27, 2011, 08:16:32 PM »
Nan nan nan, it still locks all levels besides the first one. Rabble rabble rabble. This is a good estimate of how I feel:


 
-- Simon

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #71 on: June 27, 2011, 08:55:42 PM »
I can't seem to get bashers to work at all now, I can't even assign them. Miners also make the game freeze for me.
Fast forward feels too slow as well but that's just me being impatient.  :P

Bashers and miners seem to be working OK for me.  Is there are particular level where they're not working?  What browser are you using?

Re fast-forward, I was thinking of speeding that up - maybe I could add variable fast-forward speeds?

Nan nan nan, it still locks all levels besides the first one. Rabble rabble rabble.

Simon, you can call off the angry mob now - all levels are now unlocked!

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #72 on: June 27, 2011, 09:00:52 PM »
I can't seem to get bashers to work at all now, I can't even assign them. Miners also make the game freeze for me.
Fast forward feels too slow as well but that's just me being impatient.  :P

Bashers and miners seem to be working OK for me.  Is there are particular level where they're not working?  What browser are you using?

Re fast-forward, I was thinking of speeding that up - maybe I could add variable fast-forward speeds?

All the levels don't work and I'm forced to use (an up to date) Internet Explorer because all other internet browsers don't work on my computer.
Also a variable fastforward would be nice.  ;)

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #73 on: June 27, 2011, 09:26:53 PM »
Note to self: Test in Internet Explorer more often!  Thanks for letting me know it wasn't working Gronkling - it's now fixed!

I'm going to look into the best way to implement a variable-speed fast forward.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #74 on: June 27, 2011, 09:42:19 PM »
Thanks for opening all levels. Did some more playtesting with skill interaction.

Most stuff from my first post to this topic still holds. Diggers now remove 1 row of low-res pixels too much all the time. This leads to gaps like this:



Digger tunnels are 1 low-res pixel too narrow, correct is 9 low-res pixels of width. They should remove 1 more low-res pixel to the left side of the tunnel.

-- Simon

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2011, 10:09:43 PM »
Here's even more glitches. Some of them look quite useful.  :P



(By 'Climbing through small gaps' I mean 'Climbing through thin terrain')

Climbers being stuck in terrain is a common glitch throughout most lemmings games though so don't worry about that. In fact it's not as glitchy as usual. The climber glitch still happens but very slowly and BACKWARDS.  :o I managed to get a climber stuck in some steel.


Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2011, 11:20:53 PM »
Thanks Gronkling!

What exactly is happening with the 'sinky basher'?  Was he in the terrain before he started bashing?

Re 'Turn Back Here', do you mean he did turn back there or he should have?


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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #77 on: June 28, 2011, 04:04:11 AM »
Hey, I got bored and tried this on my smartphone (sick and bidden right now)... unfortunately it doesnt work well.  Speed is fine and I can pick skills , etc, but I can't click lemmings.  Sound doesn't work either.

This is on a HTC Droid Incredible 2 with Android 2.2.  I imagine fixing these issues is out of your control, but if not I can certainly play test.

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #78 on: June 28, 2011, 09:47:03 AM »
Hey, I got bored and tried this on my smartphone (sick and bidden right now)... unfortunately it doesnt work well.  Speed is fine and I can pick skills , etc, but I can't click lemmings.  Sound doesn't work either.

This is on a HTC Droid Incredible 2 with Android 2.2.  I imagine fixing these issues is out of your control, but if not I can certainly play test.

Android play testing would be great as I don't have access to a smartphone.

Re the audio issue, apparently HTML5 audio is supported starting at Android 2.3 according to what I've read online.  I don't know how easy it is to upgrade?

I've added some code which should now allow you to click/select Lemmings on Android/iPhone - could you let me know if it works now for you?  If it detects you're using a phone it should display 'phone' underneath the level timer.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #79 on: June 28, 2011, 11:26:26 AM »
Out of curiosity, I tried this game on my ipod Touch. It seems to work just fine :thumbsup:, albeit a little slow. Whether that's just my slow internet or the limited processing power of the ipod, I'm not sure. Despite great difficulty in selecting the lemmings (by the sounds of it though, this might be fixed now), I managed to do the first couple of levels.

But, I tried it again just now, and it sits on the loading screen forever. :( I wonder if this latest update might have caused it ???

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #80 on: June 28, 2011, 12:26:20 PM »
ClamSpammer - that bug was due to something else which I've just fixed!  Can you try again and let me know what happens?

I think the slow speed is probably due to the iPod not having much memory and/or slow processor.

In what way is selecting Lemmings difficult on the iPod?  Is it due to the small screen size?  Can you still drag the play area to see other parts of the level?

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #81 on: June 28, 2011, 03:59:18 PM »
Hey, I got bored and tried this on my smartphone (sick and bidden right now)... unfortunately it doesnt work well.  Speed is fine and I can pick skills , etc, but I can't click lemmings.  Sound doesn't work either.

This is on a HTC Droid Incredible 2 with Android 2.2.  I imagine fixing these issues is out of your control, but if not I can certainly play test.

Android play testing would be great as I don't have access to a smartphone.

Re the audio issue, apparently HTML5 audio is supported starting at Android 2.3 according to what I've read online.  I don't know how easy it is to upgrade?

I've added some code which should now allow you to click/select Lemmings on Android/iPhone - could you let me know if it works now for you?  If it detects you're using a phone it should display 'phone' underneath the level timer.
Hmmm.  It just sits on the loading screen now.
Regarding Android 2.3, the update is not yet available for my phone but it is reportedly going to be released within the next month or so, so audio should work OK then.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #82 on: June 28, 2011, 04:30:55 PM »
Seems like I'll have to look into that a bit further then.  I've now removed the offending code so it should 'work' as it did previously.

Are you able to get any interaction with the Lemmings - e.g. can you get a target square to appear over any of them?

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #83 on: June 28, 2011, 04:50:01 PM »
Thanks Gronkling!

What exactly is happening with the 'sinky basher'?  Was he in the terrain before he started bashing?

Re 'Turn Back Here', do you mean he did turn back there or he should have?

Sorry about my descriptions, I'm bad at them.  :P

When bashing through miner tunnels the lemmings sinks into the ground. 'Turn back here' meant the blocker field was going to far and turning the lemming round when he should of kept on going.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #84 on: June 28, 2011, 10:15:32 PM »
Seems like I'll have to look into that a bit further then.  I've now removed the offending code so it should 'work' as it did previously.

Are you able to get any interaction with the Lemmings - e.g. can you get a target square to appear over any of them?


It seems to insist on using a cursor for selecting lemmings, as if I was on a regular computer with a mouse. It looks like I have to tap once to place the cursor, and tap again when a lemming is inside the cursor to use a skill. On a touchscreen device, it would make more sense to just tap the lemming to assign a skill.

Also, it seems I can't change the release rate. The other buttons work just fine (which is good, otherwise using skills would be impossible :P)

On the plus side, dragging and zooming work very well. :)

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #85 on: June 28, 2011, 10:35:05 PM »
Gronkling - miners no longer leave a thin wall which other Lemmings could sometimes climb through.  I'm still looking into the other things you mentioned.


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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #86 on: June 28, 2011, 11:02:57 PM »
It seems to insist on using a cursor for selecting lemmings, as if I was on a regular computer with a mouse. It looks like I have to tap once to place the cursor, and tap again when a lemming is inside the cursor to use a skill. On a touchscreen device, it would make more sense to just tap the lemming to assign a skill.

I was thinking that could be the problem.  I think I've come up with a solution for this - I'll let you know when I've implemented it.

Also, it seems I can't change the release rate. The other buttons work just fine (which is good, otherwise using skills would be impossible :P)

That's strange.  I'll look into it.

On the plus side, dragging and zooming work very well. :)

Well, at least something works!!  Does the sound work OK?

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #87 on: June 28, 2011, 11:18:25 PM »
Well, at least something works!!  Does the sound work OK?

Unless I've missed something in the settings... no, the sound doesn't work. :-\

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #88 on: June 29, 2011, 04:23:23 PM »
Unless I've missed something in the settings... no, the sound doesn't work. :-\

I don't know if iPod supports HTML5 audio - I think the iPad and iPhone do.

A couple of changes made today: fallers don't fall so far inside the terrain any more (see Gronkling's picture above), and I have increased the speed of fallers and floaters as per info from Simon.

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #89 on: June 30, 2011, 10:18:52 AM »
Have you ever seen the login system on TVTropes? It's quite a simple one: pick a name and password (which doesn't have any restrictions like length or having to have numbers and letters, since it's not like it's worth anyone's time to steal it) and the site remembers it and puts a little cookie on your computer with just the name and password. No email confirmation or anything like that, because that's just annoying.

I've implemented a system similar to that on TVTropes, but it is based on IP address so no cookies will need to be stored on your computer.  There is an optional password so that if your IP address changes in the future, you can still get your old username back.  And you can also still log in via Facebook if you want, although out of the 115 people who have tested the game so far, only 4 have chosen to do this!

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #90 on: June 30, 2011, 11:14:28 AM »
Are the leaderboards sorted by time? I think it would be better to sort them by some sort of average of the 3 things. Its not really important though.  ;P

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #91 on: June 30, 2011, 12:47:50 PM »
Yes, they're currently sorted by best time.  I was thinking of incorporating the other values (tools left and lemmings saved) but wasn't sure of the best way to implement it.  For example, if someone completes a level in 1:00 saving 10 lemmings and someone completes the same level in 0:30 saving 1 lemming, then how would I calculate which one should be at the top?  I would need to come up with some sort of algorithm for this, unless there's already an existing one in any of the Lemmings versions?  Or maybe I could just make the leaderboard headings clickable so you could display the leaderboard in the order of your choice?

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #92 on: June 30, 2011, 01:25:25 PM »
There's one thing, however: people may exploit bugs to their advantage, causing them to complete the levels in shorter time than intended. Perhaps it should be disable until the bugs are fixed?
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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #93 on: June 30, 2011, 01:29:55 PM »
Yes, they're currently sorted by best time.  I was thinking of incorporating the other values (tools left and lemmings saved) but wasn't sure of the best way to implement it.

The generally accepted hierarchy is to
rank by lems saved first;
if equal, rank by skills used;
if equal, rank by time used;
if equal, rank by whoever achieved the record first.

Sometimes, there is analysis on how to complete levels faster or with less skills at cost of less lems saved, but this is more seldom.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #94 on: June 30, 2011, 01:38:51 PM »
There's one thing, however: people may exploit bugs to their advantage, causing them to complete the levels in shorter time than intended. Perhaps it should be disable until the bugs are fixed?

When the bugs are all fixed, I may just reset the leaderboards for any levels where cheating via bugs may have been possible.

The generally accepted hierarchy is to
rank by lems saved first;
if equal, rank by skills used;
if equal, rank by time used;
if equal, rank by whoever achieved the record first.

Thanks Simon, that's useful.  I'll try and incorporate that ranking method.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #95 on: June 30, 2011, 03:42:38 PM »
Will be great if we can load and play custom levels  :D . But of course, that is secondary now, with all the current bugs unsolved.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #96 on: June 30, 2011, 04:11:53 PM »
Will be great if we can load and play custom levels  :D . But of course, that is secondary now, with all the current bugs unsolved.

The bugs are getting solved gradually - I've created a simple shared spreadsheet on Google Docs where you can all add bugs and see what my progress is with them at https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ap23uZVbRvYqdHMwQkFLYXA1NXNGSG5XNEQ3XzJZREE&hl=en_US&authkey=CLLqteQJ.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #97 on: June 30, 2011, 07:06:41 PM »
Yes, they're currently sorted by best time.  I was thinking of incorporating the other values (tools left and lemmings saved) but wasn't sure of the best way to implement it.

I had an idea once that you could have separate records for the three categories. Then you could do a playthrough where you try to save the most lemmings, another where you use the fewest skills, and another where you use the least time. This avoids the problem of trying to work out which type of record is "best" - IMHO, they are all equally worthy. Each category could have its own leaderboard, or (as mentioned) you could choose to sort the leaderboard by any category.


There's one thing, however: people may exploit bugs to their advantage, causing them to complete the levels in shorter time than intended. Perhaps it should be disable until the bugs are fixed?

I'd say an unbreakable record is a nice reward for playtesting in the early stages of development. :D

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #98 on: June 30, 2011, 10:09:51 PM »
It seems to insist on using a cursor for selecting lemmings, as if I was on a regular computer with a mouse. It looks like I have to tap once to place the cursor, and tap again when a lemming is inside the cursor to use a skill. On a touchscreen device, it would make more sense to just tap the lemming to assign a skill.

I've made a slight change which should make it easier to select Lemmings on touch devices.  If anyone can test this it would be greatly appreciated!

Offline Clam

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #99 on: June 30, 2011, 11:18:48 PM »
Found another issue: the game freezes sometimes when I restart a level. The only way to unfreeze it seems to be to reload the page.

EDIT: oh heck, now all my lemmings are looping the "oh no" animation and not exploding. :o

Offline bombsite

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #100 on: June 30, 2011, 11:23:45 PM »
Did you restart the level using SHIFT-Q?  I've seen that bug before and wondered if that could have been the cause.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #101 on: June 30, 2011, 11:42:46 PM »
Yep, I'm using Shift+Q to end levels before restarting. I've no idea what causes the permanent "ohno"ing though :-\

EDIT: I might have pinned down the freezing issue. It seems to happen when you quit while there are explosion particles on the screen.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #102 on: June 30, 2011, 11:52:03 PM »
I think when I experienced the permanent 'ohno'ing, some of the Lemmings were dying by other means (drowning/splatting) whilst being nuked at the same time.  Is this possibly what happened in your situation?

I'm thinking of adding a replay feature so I can see exactly what happened when these bugs occur!

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #103 on: July 01, 2011, 12:02:10 AM »
There weren't any lemmings dying when it happened to me - I had all 50 lemmings (on Fun 6) ohnoing at the same time :D

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #104 on: July 01, 2011, 12:05:33 AM »
EDIT: I might have pinned down the freezing issue. It seems to happen when you quit while there are explosion particles on the screen.

That's exactly what was causing the problem, and it's now fixed!  Thanks for your help  :)

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #105 on: July 01, 2011, 12:19:22 AM »
No problem, glad to help :)

... and I just struck a whole lot more bugs :scared:

- Using a miner too near the top of the screen causes a freeze
- Builders can't be turned into bashers
- I just had an incidence of looping splatters ??? (though unlike bombers, this doesn't matter from a level solving perspective)
- When you make a blocker as soon as it lands from the entrance, the lemmings go most of the way through it and then turn around. Placing it slightly further right allows lemmings to pass through as normal.
- Placing a blocker slightly to the right again causes lemmings falling from the entrance to walk in mid air for a bit, and then fall and pass through the blocker. (The location seems to be very specific; the blocker's left arm is a little to the right of where the lemmings land.)

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #106 on: July 01, 2011, 12:29:56 AM »
The game's only playing the can-can music, which gets pretty boring quickly. Shouldn't it also have the other tracks?

While I'm at it, some graphical thingies: a one-pixel thing at the bottom of the tunnel which doesn't affect anything – they still fall through – and the climbers acting weird at the top of the wall...

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #107 on: July 01, 2011, 12:32:36 AM »
Using a miner too near the top of the screen causes a freeze
That shouldn't be too hard to fix.  I'll do it ASAP.

- Builders can't be turned into bashers
I'm able to get builders to turn into bashers - I've just tested on 'A Ladder Would Be Handy'
 
I just had an incidence of looping splatters
I think you may need to see a doctor about that :D

- When you make a blocker as soon as it lands from the entrance, the lemmings go most of the way through it and then turn around. Placing it slightly further right allows lemmings to pass through as normal.
- Placing a blocker slightly to the right again causes lemmings falling from the entrance to walk in mid air for a bit, and then fall and pass through the blocker. (The location seems to be very specific; the blocker's left arm is a little to the right of where the lemmings land.)
I may need to change the blockers 'blocking area' slightly.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #108 on: July 01, 2011, 12:34:33 AM »
what the hell - pink entrance on a blue level??

also i'm unable to enter a username.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #109 on: July 01, 2011, 12:37:20 AM »
The game's only playing the can-can music, which gets pretty boring quickly. Shouldn't it also have the other tracks?

I've checked in Chrome and IE and it's playing the correct song for each level.  What browser are you using?

While I'm at it, some graphical thingies: a one-pixel thing at the bottom of the tunnel which doesn't affect anything – they still fall through – and the climbers acting weird at the top of the wall...

I'll get those fixed.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #110 on: July 01, 2011, 12:41:45 AM »
I'm able to get builders to turn into bashers - I've just tested on 'A Ladder Would Be Handy'

I tried it again, and it still isn't happening.


also i'm unable to enter a username.

Are you trying to enter a username with a space? It doesn't seem to like those.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #111 on: July 01, 2011, 12:42:50 AM »
Firefox.

And no, I can't even type in the box.

Here's another problem: this basher should have stopped a loooong time ago; he shouldn't be able to keep bashing with a tiny bit of the floor like that, he should need at least a few pixels height in front of him..

I also can't make a builder into a basher.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #112 on: July 01, 2011, 12:49:17 AM »
what the hell - pink entrance on a blue level??

The correct doors should appear on each level now.

also i'm unable to enter a username.

I'll fix that shortly.  You should be able to enter a username when you first load the page in the meantime.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #113 on: July 01, 2011, 04:04:53 AM »
I may have figured out what's wrong with the bashers. It looks as if they can only be used in places where they will destroy terrain. The game might be checking for terrain when you click the lemming (and not using the skill if there isn't any), whereas the check for terrain should only happen after a basher stroke. I guess you could argue that bashers shouldn't be used when there's nothing to bash (IIRC Lemmings 3D had such a restriction), but bashing at nothing is a good way of stopping other actions, or just stalling a lemming.


Also (unrelated), there's invisible water on level 15, along the bottom, in between the actual water. I got a nasty surprise when I dug too low :P

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #114 on: July 01, 2011, 08:51:44 AM »
I may have figured out what's wrong with the bashers. It looks as if they can only be used in places where they will destroy terrain.

OK, now I understand.  You can now 'bash' when there's nothing bashable in front of the Lemming  :)

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #115 on: July 02, 2011, 12:15:16 AM »
i'm unable to enter a username.

That's fixed now.  Spaces in user names are now allowed as well.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #116 on: July 02, 2011, 12:05:17 PM »
Lemmings seem to be landing on something above the blocker's head here. :-\

Also, on we all fall down, one should be able to crank the release rate up to 70-ish, and then an extra two lemmings should be able to walk off the edge of a half-dug hole and land safely. It's actually a vital strategy for the Taxing and Mayhem levels, in which there are many more lemmings. (I find it the level impossible to play without using this strategy, or the backroute that only works on the Mac/Genesis/SNES versions)

Also, I'm not finding the thing responsive enough, particularly when unpausing – it takes a few milliseconds after I've unpaused to register a click, which is too long.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #117 on: July 02, 2011, 08:34:46 PM »
Quote from: finlay
Also, I'm not finding the thing responsive enough, particularly when unpausing – it takes a few milliseconds after I've unpaused to register a click, which is too long.

In fact, the good thing would be to be able to assign a skill to a Lemming when paused, causing the game to unpause at the same time.

Also, Bashers stop bashing for no apparent reason. Screenshot below. In fact, there's so many things wrong with the Basher actually. I got it to bash through one pixel gaps or he may not stop when he SHOULD stop, especially when bashing over rounded surface like the crystal balls in "The Art Gallery". Sometimes, he lowers of a few pixels when it shouldn't be the case.

Other bugs:

- When a Lemming lands after a fall, he's into the surface of the floor instead of above.
- I don't know if it's my graphics card or if it's about the internet browser, but it's possible that blurry rows or columns of pixels remain which Lemmings can go through. In fact, in the case of a Basher, he may avoid falling if there's a one pixel blurry row of pixels under his paws while the other lemmings fall way behind him.
- When the Climber stops climbing and you assign him a Digger skill, for example, then he starts digging in the wall way below.
- I still got cases where Lemmings can cross a one pixel gap.
- When a builder hits something at his feet (generally a builder's stair) and stops building, he should turn around instead of walking forward. Also, the builder stops when there's still one pixel remaining to build.
- Like explained above, I got walkers to land over a blocker.
- Climbers, fallers and floaters shouldn't do their "oh no!" when they're about to blow (from Bomber or Armageddon). They should blow instantly.
- Diggers are still digging one more pixel below their feet, causing them to "float" in the air while digging.
- Climbers are still climbing "in the air" when there's a one pixel gap on the wall (as in "A ladder would be handy" at the right).
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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #118 on: July 05, 2011, 12:27:41 PM »
- Climbers, fallers and floaters shouldn't do their "oh no!" when they're about to blow (from Bomber or Armageddon). They should blow instantly.
No, climbers should, but fallers and floaters shouldn't.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #119 on: July 05, 2011, 02:05:42 PM »
I know that under original versions of the game, they can, but preferably, they shouldn't. How could they stand on their feet and hold their shaking head... in the air ? ???
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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #120 on: July 05, 2011, 02:43:55 PM »
They're not in the air. In L1, climbers' foot coordinates are inside the terrain. :)

Since walkers or similar gravity-obeying skills have their foot in the floor, the general rule seems to be that ohnoing occurs if and only if the foot is inside terrain.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #121 on: July 05, 2011, 08:59:09 PM »
Since walkers or similar gravity-obeying skills have their foot in the floor, the general rule seems to be that ohnoing occurs if and only if the foot is inside terrain.

That's a logical approximation, but as far as the PC version goes, it really is based purely on the action the lemming is performing at the time and not so much the terrain.  The actions that prevent transition to "oh no" includes falling, floating, drowning, and maybe one or two more related to dying that I don't remember off top of my head.

In particular, you can observe the following on PC Lemmings: assign exploder to a digger such that at the time his countdown reaches 0, he is not directly standing on any terrain (possible because diggers can continue digging as long as there's some terrain at its "sides" so to speak).  Something fun happens:  it will transition to "oh-no", but because he's not directly standing on any terrain, he will fall down during his "oh-no" phase until he lands on something or explodes.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #122 on: July 06, 2011, 03:56:56 PM »
Whatever... the difference would be the loss of few extra seconds of the lemming "oh noing" which is somewhat minimal. I'd just be logical imho. Even in 3D Lemmings (and I think in Lemmings 2 as well) they don't "oh no" while they climb.
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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #123 on: July 11, 2011, 04:30:33 PM »
I have been tweaking my bashers and they're now working a lot better!  I think they still need a couple of adjustments which I'm currently working on.

I've also fixed a bug which made it impossible to complete 'We All Fall Down' by only making alternate Lemmings into diggers.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #124 on: July 13, 2011, 10:47:22 PM »
The generally accepted hierarchy is to
rank by lems saved first;
if equal, rank by skills used;
if equal, rank by time used;
if equal, rank by whoever achieved the record first.

New scores added to the leaderboard will now appear in the above order.  Existing scores haven't been reordered - this will happen naturally as more scores get added using the new ordering method.

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Re: New unofficial online Lemmings game...
« Reply #125 on: July 14, 2011, 06:30:41 PM »
Quote from: bombsite
Existing scores haven't been reordered - this will happen naturally as more scores get added using the new ordering method.

That's... a bit ridiculous. I mean, I don't wanna play the levels back just to make my scores sorted, especially when you can't get any better score than that on some levels... If you're using a database, can't you sort it?
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