Cheapo Level Pak topic

[Isu]

I got the e-mail but it didn't include any attachments.........

Yeah, I wasn't sure if I had sent it or not.
I posted the email again but this time its with the attachments.

[Proxima]

Received; many thanks.

I hope you don't mind if I edit the levels a little though? For one thing, "Backroutes bypassed" won't really do as a title -- it would apply to the whole set, after all -- and for another, your version that's meant to force the backroute actually doesn't! However, I can make it do so by requiring 100%, so no problem there.

[Isu]

Backroutes Bypassed: Sorry, I couldn't think as anything else to call it, you can call it whatever you want, I won't mind.

your version that's meant to force the backroute actually doesn't!

What? Impossible!  X_X

[Proxima]

I'll send you my edited versions of the levels so you can see what I mean..........

EDIT: sent.

EDIT 2: Adam's pointed out that the one-way wall version is still backroutable by bashing under from the other side. I'm going to thoroughly de-backroute it by placing a wall of metal there! Mwahahahahahaha!

[Shvegait]

Ack! Found another backroute to "Take the Stairs" that was very similar to one Conway found a couple months ago, and it's now fixed. Same link. Good luck.

[guest]

Incidentally, I've finished the remake of 10 Taxing (Izzie Wizzie Lemmings Get Busy). I'm going to enforce the backroute in one version by cutting the builders to 12...... I don't yet know how to remove it without making it obvious, though. It wants a bit of thinking about..........

Upon further thought, I guess while ideally my suggestion makes sense, in practice it might be somewhat difficult, since most of the levels in PC Lemmings have a bit of leeway in terms of skill distribution and % to save (though of course it's definitely okay to to change those as well if need be).

Ideas to make things non-obvious might fall along the lines of this.  Let's take Stepping Stone for example.  (Unfortunately by talking about it I've just make things relatively obvious now, oh well.)  To enforce the original solution so that the ceiling solution doesn't work, instead of preventing digging/mining by such obvious manners as one-way walls or steel areas, consider altering the ceiling to floor height so that it's just slightly more than the max safe-fall distance.  Or hide some nasty traps in the ceiling that cannot be avoided.

To enforce the backroute, instead of just removing the stepping stones, keep them, but spread them out a little bit more, just enough so that you'll run out of builders.  (Especially effective if you have distances of separation that are just a few pixels more than n builds, thereby causing you to "waste" most of the next build in order to reach the stepping stone.)  Or add a second, higher level of stepping stones that would interfere with normal building, causing your builder to hit his head in inconvenient places.

I realize that by doing this you greatly increase the risk of introducing new backroutes by accident, but given that the levels will be playtested a bit, hopefully it'll not be too hard to catch issues.  Even if in the worst case we have no choice but to fall back with making the easy-way-out, scream-in-your-face backroute-remover/enforcer quick-fixes, at least we'd had our fun trying for more subtlety.

[Proxima]

Thank you, guest; as always some good ideas there. And I think I will have fun with a lot of these levels working out how to fix the backroutes....... (I thought of a fix for 10 Taxing, for instance, which is pure evil.)

ISU: sorry, I've confused matters regarding 1 Taxing. I'll PM you about it.

[guest]

Incidentally, I've finished the remake of 10 Taxing (Izzie Wizzie Lemmings Get Busy). I'm going to enforce the backroute in one version by cutting the builders to 12......I don't yet know how to remove it without making it obvious, though.

Ok, I took a lookt at the level on "The Lemmings Solution" and realize that apparently I've always used the backroute to solve it.

If you take the intended solution to be the one presented on "The Lemmings Solution", then actually you'd have to cut the builders down to 10 to enforce the backroute, at least on the PC version.  Presumably you've already modified the terrain so it's 12 instead?  (Oh wait, must be the increased max safe-fall distance in Cheapo.)

Anyway, I do have one possible idea that can enforce the backroute while keeping the number of builders the same, but it does introduces an extra aspect to the level that I'd rather avoid (I DON'T mean another backroute though).  I'll e-mail you on that.

I should also clarify that when I said "not too obvious", I mainly had in mind the perspective of a new player who has never seen this level before and therefore has no concept of either the intended solution or the backroute(s).  In other words, I basically were only setting the bar so that both the intended solution and the backroute(s) look potentially valid to someone who's playing the level for the first time, so that it would be reasonable for such a player to try all of them.  Although it would be cool to set the bar even higher so that it is not obvious at all even to a player who already knows the solution(s) that you're aiming to eliminate, that is probably too hard to achieve in many cases.

The point being that using my lower bar, the change to 12 builders is I think probably good enough to qualify as a non-obvious change.  Heck, even to a player who knows the intended solution already, (s)he might not remember in enough detail to realize how many builders were needed until he tried and failed on your remake.

[guest]

13 Mayhem (The Great Lemming Caper)

Um, can anyone really say what the "intended solution" is here?  I think there are like at least 3 or more distinct solutions, plus countless minor variations.  Having only 2 builders is pretty much the main point of the level.  The rest of the skillset clearly does not attempt to impose any further restrictions or to enforce a single particular route.

That being said, we can certainly make a bunch of levels that tries to enforce one and only one route, for each of the who knows how many routes there are.  But IMHO this level is clearly intended to have multiple solutions.

[Proxima]

Agreed, certainly.

Which raises a question.

On levels like 13 Mayhem, which have one backroute (that I know of) plus multiple interesting solutions, obviously I'd like, as far as it's possible, for the backroute-preventing version to leave all the interesting solutions in.

(WRT 13 Mayhem, incidentally, I disagree that "having only 2 builders is pretty much the main point of the level"; I'm sure the designer had a particular method in mind even if we don't know which. I certainly know of at least two solutions that are not backroutes.)

So what about levels with multiple backroutes? Should the backroute-forcing version aim to force a particular one or just to prevent the main solution?

Another question (purely about the aesthetics of this set): should the backroute-forcing versions come before or after the backroute-preventing ones?

[guest]

One vote of "AFTER" from me.

[Proxima]

Thanks.    And the other question? Also, did you get my reply to your e-mail?

[guest]

I don't have an answer yet for your other questions.  I did get your e-mail reply.  I actually have to head out soon, so I'll have to get back to you some other time.  patience, patience.  

[Isu]

sorry, I've confused matters regarding 1 Taxing. I'll PM you about it.

I didn't know about that solution Ahribar. That makes three solutions to Taxing 1 instead of two.

[Proxima]

Four, my friend. Four.