Cheapo Level Pak topic

[Conway]

Don't give up!!! =8O

[Shvegait]

So far I've passed 1-6, 7 (backroute), 9, 12, 16, 17.

I haven't given many of them a proper chance yet. Right now I'm working on 8 (Savage Garden).

[Conway]

Savage Garden's a cool level (and a cool band!)

[Isu]

I solved levels 1 - 4, 6, 9, 10, 14 and 17.

I backrouted levels 7 and 13.

Level 17 was very sneaky (unless I backrouted that too). Are you supposed to send a lemming over the top of the level? Because I did that and it resulted in me using 3 Bashers, 1 Miner, and 3 diggers.

Some of the later levels look very nice (and very difficult) but I haven't tried anything past level 21 yet.

[Proxima]

I had a new idea for a Cheapo set in my sleep last night, I think it would be rather cool.

The idea is to remake all the backroutable levels in the original games (Lemmings, ONML and Genesis Lemmings) and do two versions of each, one altered to remove the backroute, the other to force it......

EDIT: the set is finished. Download it here:
http://www.geocities.com/zarathustra47/Backroutes.ZIP

[Conway]

Cool idea, but how do you know what the intended solution is, if there even is one? Some levels just naturally have multiple solutions. (Oh, and I've already done a remake of Stepping Stones, removing the stepping stones to force the ceiling route, in one of my Lemedit packs!)

[Proxima]

In many cases (e.g. Present 19) it's just obvious from the skill set -- and the thought that the intended solution _couldn't_ be that simple. In others, once I've made the levels and you've found both solutions, you're welcome to argue them out with me...... but all the ones listed above I'm sure of.

[Isu]

Oh, and I've already done a remake of Stepping Stones, removing the stepping stones to force the ceiling route, in one of my Lemedit packs

Yeah, and it's given me more grief than a stab in the nuts!

[Isu]

I'll take 1 Taxing, if you don't mind...

[Proxima]

Cool! Send it to me (zarathustra47 at yahoo dot com) when you're done!

[guest]

The idea is to remake all the backroutable levels in the original games (Lemmings, ONML and Genesis Lemmings) and do two versions of each, one altered to remove the backroute, the other to force it......

I'd think "Postcard from Lemmingland" would be a natural addition to your list of levels.  Though I guess that would make for 3 different versions of the level.

And of course there's "It's a Hero Time" where at last count we've gotten somewhere between, I don't know, 4 to 8 different solutions......guess maybe that shouldn't be in the list after all.

------------------

Oh, before I forget, which version of the game are we basing this on, especially in terms of backroutes?  Because as you know, in some cases a level solution may only work in certain versions of the game...

[Proxima]

Let's be clear, by backroutes I mean solutions that are _easier_ than the intended solution. That rules out Postcard and It's hero time -- though what the hell is the third solution to Postcard?

I'm trying to base this on solutions that will work in any version of the game (except the Genesis levels, which are of course unique to that version), but if when you've solved my altered levels you happen to know that my solution won't work in a particular version, please tell me!

(I've already taken Compression Method One off the list for this reason.)

[guest]

Let's be clear, by backroutes I mean solutions that are _easier_ than the intended solution.

Well okay I see where you're going, but I can also see endless debate on what "easier" really means.

For example, is the ceiling backroute to "Stepping Stones" really any easier than the intended?  The intended method certainly is more obvious to conceive of since the terrain layout and title screams for it, and isn't too particularly difficult to execute since if I recall correctly, you have diggers for cutting short your building so they can align with the stepping stones.

Things can get murky since there's both the aspect of how difficult it is to conceive of a solution and how difficult it is to execute the solution, even ignoring the inherent subjectiveness in both.

And what about "We All Fall Down"?  Unless by "backroute" you mean the one from WinLemm (and ONLY WinLemm as far as I know) where they stupidly increased the game's max safe-fall distance.  Otherwise the only backroute I know of involves using fewer diggers, which to me is hardly the most obvious solution either to conceive of or to execute.

I guess it's still fair game though to remake levels with more difficult backroutes (whatever that may mean).  Instead of releasing multiple versions involving the more difficult backroutes, just release one remade version of the level that enforces the easy intended solution, if possible.

[guest]

"Also watch out for significant differences, such as the fact that in Cheapo one-way walls are not explodable."

This killed something like 3 level re-makes in my set. Which I will likely be releasing with only 80 levels instead of 120, because a lot of my old level ideas were either infeasible or too easy.

EDIT: This post is from Insane Steve -- for some reason, it posted as a guest and I can't figure out why.

[guest: the REAL one :)]

Gee thanks Insane Steve, I think you also got rid of the last post I made before you posted as "guest".  

Anyway, I'll repeat my two points on that disappearing post briefly:

1) Cheapo has a higher max safe-fall distance than lemedit, so keep that in mind if you are going to copy and paste graphics directly from lemmings (thru DOSBox) to Cheapo.

2) Watch out for other game mechanics differences.  One-way walls are explodable in Lemmings but not in Cheapo.  In Lemmings the right and left level boundaries act as walls (within limits), whereas in Cheapo you die if you go off bounds.  And so forth.  The list can probably go on for pages.