Cheapo Level Pak topic

[geoo]

Ok, 9 is done; actually I also tried out the steel sprites of original lemmings to compare which looking better, but I accidentaly overwrote the level and so it's now as you said. I think I don't need to upload it for now.
Hopefully final version of level 8 is here: http://de.geocities.com/geoo89/g0s10-2.zip
Level 5: http://de.geocities.com/geoo89/g0s09-3.zip
Since Insane Steve mentioned another backroute for this level, I don't know whether it still works.

Level 2: I misunderstood you Shvegait. However, Although your (and ccexplore's) way are a little different to mine, the main idea is involved.

Interestingly, I now want to play the original LemEdit version of this level.  Beside the obvious safe-fall distance changes, there are one or two other places where the Cheapo setup doesn't (according to my knowledge of the game mechanics) quite work exactly in LemEdit, so I am curious to see how exactly the LemEdit version was laid out.  Or perhaps a few of the differences cancel each other out.

You can download the Lemedit set here: http://eng-forum.lemmingswelt.de/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=level_id;action=display;num=1089136533;start=120
I don't know whether I checked the Level in WinLemm, CustLemm or Original Lemmings, but with a max-safe fall distance of 63px it must be possible, and with 60px probably too.
Also, the terrain was quite a bit different, so, there may be backdoors which don't exist in cheapo.
(If you play the other levels in the set, note that level 1 and 2 are only possible in WinLem. Also, I made two or three more CustLemm levels, one remade in Cheapo if I remember correctly, and one only WinLem compatible; if you wan't, I'll also upload them)

Now to level 10. The solution Shvegait found is, surprisingly, a backdoor. Although I pulled the solution off quite quickly following his way, I think I'll keep the level in that way since it took very long until the level had been solved in general; and make my solution impossible.
But, I'll release a level with a slight modification (in fact, I just put in a barrel) as a new level: http://de.geocities.com/geoo89/g0s11.zip
Please tell me what you think about that.

The other one is just to test something out, and well, let's just say it proves that the solution is not that obvious.
 
Oddly, I'm far from using all of the skills, which obviously makes me think that I'm probably not going about this in the correct way at all.  But the other skills haven't revealed their secrets/usefulness to me yet.  Ah well, I guess it'll be a matter of time.

My solution is not obvious too (but I think you should know that). About the skills: Most of the skills are used. Just a very few are left over.

Let me look at the level again later tonight.  The fact that you are talking about making some of the steps 8-pixel tall should help me figure out what you intended solution is, so that I can determine what level of details to discuss with you.  I just need to make sure what I'm thinking works with the modification.

To avoid another delay of one day, I send you my solution right now, in Wingdings, if you don't want to read it but have to look up your IM box.
(However, I'm quite certain that you'll find it out quickly by yourself.)
Also, I upload the .lev file to make it easier for you to edit the level for testing.
My only problem are the non-timing solution (except your 'infamous' way of course), the other solutions are not so problematic (although my solution might be a bit more difficult than other timing solutions).
About your suggested ways to fix it:
4) would be a possibility, although it would destroy the look of the level a bit.
Your other suggestions are (except #2) both exactly one pixel (for #3 maybe two, but because of the same problem you mentioned: "assuming the timing works out perfectly" not so different) to high which makes me suppose that there are some similarities between this and my solution.

I figure I should comment on geoo's pack, seeing how the design style is being compared to mine. (Yes, I do see the preference for straight terrain, and the level style built around incorporating one of two clever tricks into a level and designing the terrain to fit these tricks.)
 
Very nicely done levels so far. Being in college, I've not played them as thoroughly as I'd like, but I did enjoy what I played.
[...]
Overall, though, very well made. I'll comment more when I have the time to play them a bit more.

Thank you. I enjoy playing your levels too; perhaps they also inspired my a bit. E.g. the idea for level ten I got playing one of your levels (actually one of those I consider as hardest), which, in fact, I still haven't solved yet. Also my idea for the new level replacing #4 I got playing one of your levels (one of the "Difficult" set, which I later solved a different way since my old didn't work). I just need to build a level around this trick.

[ccexplore]

By the way, seems to me your proposed change above doesn't actually eliminate the backroute you were concerned about.

I've just now checked your actual fix for the level, so the above statement is longer true or relevant.

[ccexplore]

I don't know whether I checked the Level in WinLemm, CustLemm or Original Lemmings

Ah I see.  With WinLemm, one of the differences that would affect the Cheapo solution no longer applies.  I'll look at the level later this weekend when I have time.

[ccexplore]

(level 7)To avoid another delay of one day, I send you my solution right now, in Wingdings, if you don't want to read it but have to look up your IM box.

I didn't really want to read it, but in the interest of not being too overly selfish, I decided to save both of us time and read your solution.

Interesting, I'll need to try it out to see that it really works.  I've sort of try something somewhat similar, but it didn't work and I convinced myself that it couldn't work, but maybe it's a timing thing.

Unfortunately, your solution contains neither of the two tricks I used for the infamous solution and other solutions.  And the no-timing part is fundamentally difficult to eliminate, because the reason the trick works specifically has to do with steps (the height doesn't matter, just the fact that you have these steps).  So you can see now why it could be a little difficult to eliminate.  I'll get back to you later tonight.

I'm going to IM you now my thoughts on your intended solution.

[ccexplore]

Interesting, I'll need to try it out to see that it really works. &#A0;I've sort of try something somewhat similar, but it didn't work and I convinced myself that it couldn't work, but maybe it's a timing thing.

Ah, turns out it's a Cheapo glitch and not a timing thing that prevented what I was trying from working.  You see, it turns out thanks to Cheapo glitchiness, one of the moves you used only works if it's a walker doing it.  If you use a climber instead its position will be off by one pixel and ruins your solution.  I'll PM you about it now.

[Shvegait]

That's interesting that the Level 10 solution wasn't want you intended, but it's a nice (although perhaps sloppy) trick, don't you think? Two levels for the price of one

I haven't tried the update on Level 10 yet, but I did want to comment that your modifications to Level 5 haven't eliminated my backroute. But, I will tell you that it just barely works, and shifting up that bottom bar by one pixel (two to be safe) should be sufficient. As it is now, the lemming just barely hits his head, letting it turn around with 2 spare builders, which just barely go high (and far) enough that the lemmings can hit the left wall safely.

[ccexplore]

Hmm, I look at geoo89's new version of the level.

The change makes me wonder now whether Shvegait's solution is the one I've kept trying but simply couldn't get it to work, because Cheapo was uncooperative.  I would hope not, but you never know.  A PM will be heading in Shvegait's inbox to see if what I'm thinking is what he did.

I'm also confused about geoo89's comments about Shvegait's backroute.  The new level with the barrel added in fixes the backroute, correct?

geoo89's addition of the barrel now makes me wonder whether a solution idea I ruled out as impossible might in fact work, if I use the skills correctly and with good timing.  Hope not, but then again you never know, given my experience with level 7.  It's no secret that I'm less versed in how Cheapo's game mechanics work, as you can tell by how I serendipitously discovered that climber/walker difference in relation to level 7.

[ccexplore]

And the no-timing part is fundamentally difficult to eliminate, because the reason the trick works specifically has to do with steps (the height doesn't matter, just the fact that you have these steps). &#A0;So you can see now why it could be a little difficult to eliminate. &#A0;I'll get back to you later tonight.

Hmm, good news actually.  It turns out that if you make the last step at least 8 pixels, that alone will actually eliminate more solutions than you expected.  It certainly, for example, eliminates all the solutions I presented you so far, timing or no-timing.

It then turns out that what remains of the workable no-timing solutions, it seems that you are now forced to use both tricks (the no-timing and the other) in order to have a solution that saves enough or saves at all.  And so they are basically all comparable in difficulty (in some case even harder) to the first solution I came up with [the so-called "infamous"], which uses both tricks.

So if you are willing to leave the "infamous" solution in, you could also now choose to leave the no-timing solutions in, as long as you make the last step 8 or more pixels high, so that the easier no-timing solutions are eliminated.

Finally, because no-timing now seems to force the use of the other trick, you can eliminate pretty much everything but your own solution and a variation of my infamous solution if you make the second-to-last step wider (by 4 pixels or so, I need to test it out).  That prevents the other trick from working.  My infamous solution will not be affected by that change, but can be eliminated if you make the height of the last step at least 9 pixels rather than just 8.

Um, your thoughts?

[geoo]

I haven't tried the update on Level 10 yet, but I did want to comment that your modifications to Level 5 haven't eliminated my backroute. But, I will tell you that it just barely works, and shifting up that bottom bar by one pixel (two to be safe) should be sufficient. As it is now, the lemming just barely hits his head, letting it turn around with 2 spare builders, which just barely go high (and far) enough that the lemmings can hit the left wall safely.

Yes, that's certainly easy to fix. I just didn't notice that you could get high enough with the 2 builders left, which is obviously possible. X_X Thanks.
http://de.geocities.com/geoo89/g0s09-4.zip

That's interesting that the Level 10 solution wasn't want you intended, but it's a nice (although perhaps sloppy) trick, don't you think? Two levels for the price of one

Surely. Although, I think, the intended way is even a bit more original.
But I want to say, I won't release the version eliminating my way for now since the changes would certainly give a further hint what to do.

I'm also confused about geoo89's comments about Shvegait's backroute.  The new level with the barrel added in fixes the backroute, correct?

Yes, it does (at least I'm quite sure). If not, Shvegait would use the same way for the changed level (but that should be impossible).

Hmm, good news actually.  It turns out that if you make the last step at least 8 pixels, that alone will actually eliminate more solutions than you expected.  It certainly, for example, eliminates all the solutions I presented you so far, timing or no-timing.

So if you are willing to leave the "infamous" solution in, you could also now choose to leave the no-timing solutions in, as long as you make the last step 8 or more pixels high, so that the easier no-timing solutions are eliminated.

Yes, I'm going to leave it in. With 'no-timing solutions' you mean solutions using elements of your infamous one?
So, making the last step 9 (or 8 ) px high would eliminate all backdoors easier than my way not using elements of your infamous solution?

Finally, because no-timing now seems to force the use of the other trick, you can eliminate pretty much everything but your own solution and a variation of my infamous solution if you make the second-to-last step wider (by 4 pixels or so, I need to test it out).  That prevents the other trick from working.  My infamous solution will not be affected by that change, but can be eliminated if you make the height of the last step at least 9 pixels rather than just 8.
 
Um, your thoughts?

Well, I don't know since making one step wider would break the style of the level. However it would be a solution.
Strangely, I feel anyhow I want to keep your infamous solution in. Eliminating variations sounds good since I think your original 'infamous' solution is the most original/hardest to find.
What's your opinion?

At last I want to say, if you're hoing to present a level using your 'infamous solution' trick, you can use this level as base if you want.

And just a little question about the walker/climber problem: I wonder why you didn't try it out in front of the first 7-pixel step (after passing the 6 px one) :: (Perhaps you just tried it once and concerned it as impossible immediately?)

[ccexplore]

Yes, I'm going to leave it in. With 'no-timing solutions' you mean solutions using elements of your infamous one?
So, making the last step 9 (or 8 ) px high would eliminate all backdoors easier than my way not using elements of your infamous solution?

Yes.

[To clarify:  there are 2 tricks I used on my original ["infamous"] solution.  One trick allows you to not worry about timing.  The other trick makes it possible to cope with slightly higher step heights (recall that I originally thought the last 3 steps were 7,8,9, not 7,7,7).]

Strangely, I feel anyhow I want to keep your infamous solution in. Eliminating variations sounds good since I think your original 'infamous' solution is the most original/hardest to find.
What's your opinion?

Hard for me to tell.  I have a knack for details, that's how I discover many interesting moves.  It's harder for me to tell how easy or hard it is for other people.  At least it's somewhat tricky to execute, and no one's going to ever execute the move "by accident", you have to intend to do it for a correct execution.  I do know though that Insane Steve knows at least about the trick that doesn't have to do with the "no-timing" part.

I do think though that with the "no-timing" part, a player will probably end up taking less tries to succeed, since it does take a few tries in order to find the right way to distribute the lemmings in your solution.

At last I want to say, if you're hoing to present a level using your 'infamous solution' trick, you can use this level as base if you want.

Thanks for the offer, although I think there are better places to showcase my trick.

And just a little question about the walker/climber problem: I wonder why you didn't try it out in front of the first 7-pixel step (after passing the 6 px one) ::

I don't remember for sure.  One reason might be:  in Cheapo, you can assign skills during the climber-to-walker transition, and during that transition the lemming stays at one single location.  So I probably thought using the climber would be the easiest way to ensure that I start bashing as left as possible.  What I didn't know is that you can apparently be located at one pixel lefter if you use a walker.

[ccexplore]

Actually, there is another way to eliminate the "no-timing" trick, but it still means you'll have to change the level, possibly by a lot.  See PM.  What I tell you might even allow you figure out what the "no-timing" trick is on your own.  (But remember that with the last step increased to 8 pixels, all solutions that uses the no-timing trick will apparently also need to use my other trick also.)

[geoo]

I PMed you about this.

Also, the replacement for level 4 is ready:
http://de.geocities.com/geoo89/g0s04-2.zip

[Shvegait]

Yes, that's certainly easy to fix. I just didn't notice that you could get high enough with the 2 builders left, which is obviously possible. X_X Thanks.

Yet another 22/23 backroute... This one was probably always possible actually... I'll send a PM.

[geoo]

Umm...yes. Well, I'm used to this procedure from Supaplex.

Next version: http://de.geocities.com/geoo89/g0s09-5.zip

[Shvegait]

22/23 again... and hardly uses any tools. Another PM.