Author Topic: [Lemmings 2] Minimum skills for gold  (Read 15187 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3860
    • View Profile
    • Lix
[Lemmings 2] Minimum skills for gold
« on: March 10, 2010, 08:15:24 AM »
Hi folks,

the forum is lacking action these days, so geoo and I had the idea for this. How many skills are required in <strong>Lemmings 2</strong>? We use the <strong>PC version</strong> of the game, and are interested in the <strong>minimum number of skill usages to achieve gold</strong> for each level. I'll update the post when new info is available.
<pre>
Level     I   II  III   IV    V   VI  VII VIII   IX    X  total
Classic   5    7    9    8    9   10    5    6   11    5     75
Beach     4    3    4    4    3    6   10    5    9    4     52
Cavelems  1    6    1    4    2    2    4    7    7    7     41
Circus    4    2    5    3    4    4    5    8    4    8     47
Egyptian  4    8    4    1    9    2    3    8    8    7     50
Highland  1    5    2   10    6    6    1    4    7    3     45
Medieval  6    6    3    7    5    5    4   10    3    5     54
Outdoor   1    1    4    4    3    4    5    9    6    3     40
Polar     6    3    3    3    8    3    4    5    5    4     44
Shadow   10    2    6    7    4    3    5    5    3    8     53
Space     2    5    7    5    3    6    8    4    5    8     53
Sports    4    2    5    5    5    2    4   10    2   11     50
</pre>
-- Simon
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 08:17:24 AM by Minim »

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3860
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2010, 10:18:44 AM »
Notable levels:

Cavelem VIII, Wilma, has an elegant 7-skill fling route.
Medieval III, the lose-1 level, has a 3-skill solution.
Medieval V's 5-skill route is fun to figure out, try it sometime. :-)
Medieval IX with 3 skills will get you sore fingers, I suppose.
Outdoor VI is Magic of Mushrooms and has a 4-skill solution.
Outdoor VII is Natural Selection, it has a 5-skill solution while the indended one uses over 70.
Space V, Stainless Steel Lem, has 3- and 4-skill solutions with mad ballooner management.
Space VIII, Odyssey, has a 5-skill Tarzan route: Catch a bunch of fallers on the chain.

A few quirks of the L2 mechanics:

Quote
Lemmings 2 will not assign to a worker, but rather to the first lemming that came out of the hatch if there are several under the cursor.

There are several levels that look as if the designers put in backroutes on purpose, and they are always the most skill-efficient routes. Thanks, DMA! Examples: Beach IX, Polar X, Sports VII, Shadow VIII.

Runners can run past the medieval dragon.

Medieval X requires everyone to pass a catapult. Pull it to the left during the correct frame.

When a magno booter falls due to lack of ground, it will face the direction it was facing when he was assigned the booter skill. This is logical, but not intuitive when you remove the ground of a booter who walks upside down.

Key points to reproduce the solutions, as long as they're largely different from the intended solution:

Quote
Classic I: Two bashers, then build to the exit.
Classic III: 1 climber, 1 skill for almost each tetris piece, but 2 skills for one of the pieces.
Classic VII: Block a lemming into the steel so that he crawls up. Have im pave the way. Build over the blocker so that everyone crawls up. This loses 1, that's okay as you may lose 4.
Classic X: See LemSteven's method in reply #14.

Beach II: Jet pack down to the castle, use the 2nd hole from the left to get there, and continue to jet pack onto the parasol. This can be done with 1 jetpacker, but you have to be very quick. Rope to block off the path to the right, then laser blast on the parasol to free the crowd. See attachment.
Beach III: Control the crowd with an archer. Hang glide over the pond and to the right side, then hang glide to the exit. Laser blast to free the crowd. This laser blaster must be placed pixel-perfect, otherwise he either hits steel or exits before the click. See attachment.
Beach IX: Platform over the water, attract with the 2nd or 3rd lem near the water. Wait until everyone's out. Let the attractor fill to delay him. Mortar with the ex-platformer twice to make a hole to the left of the crowd, you now have a worker lem that's far enough ahead to pave the way.

Cavelems I: Club bash underneath the last dinosaur, I guess this must be pixel-perfect.
Cavelems III: See ccexplore's comment in Reply #2.
Cavelems VI: See ccexplore's attachment in Reply #2.
Cavelems VII: 2nd lemming stacks under the hatch. 1st one jumps over the trap, 3rd one platforms over the trap. 1st lem stacks on the hill, then jumps off to the left. Platform over the trap, rope to create land under the exit, rope to free the crowd.
Cavelems VIII: See ccexplore's method in reply #2.

Circus VI: See LemSteven's method in reply #11.
Circus IX: See LemSteven's method in reply #14.

Egyptian I: Use the digger and something else to unite all three crowds.
Egyptian II: Use two flame throwers and a stomper to unite all three crowds. Attractors aren't necessary.
Egyptian III: There are several 4-skill routes. One is fencing to the left at the bottom of the first staircase, then stomp, scoop, fence to the goal.
Egyptian IV: Twister level.

Highland I: Guide the twister along the bottom.
Highland III: See LemSteven's comment in Reply #3.

Medieval II: 3 twisters, 3 sand pourers. The last twister goes along the level's outer border.
Medieval III: This uses flinging, i.e. using the knockback of an exploder, and has heavy pixel precision. Stomp in the pit after the crowd is in there completely. Assign an exploder to fling a single lemming across the water while everyone else gets flung to the right. Use the roper to cross the water. See geoo's screenshots attached to reply #13.
Medieval IV: Follow the usual route, but use only 2 stackers. Have the 2nd lemming stack on one of the small platforms, and the 1st one on an upwards slope.
Medieval V: Use a bomber to the left of the hatch to fling a single lemming onto the trees. He'll be the waypaver, club bash out of the bomber hole when he's done.
Medieval VI: 4 twisters, 1 platformer. Basically, everybody is sent the slider route. Make a twister after the first drop, blow him down to make a single walker take the slider route. Blow the twister to the right, everybody else will fall into the collection pit. Conserve this twister, you need it to free the crowd later. Platform over where you'd normally jump with a running rock climber. Fall onto the platform to the left below the exit. Use twisters to get up to the exit.
Medieval VII: Fence, stomp, fence. If the first two lems are far enough apart, fence through the last tower, otherwise restart.
Medieval IX: Assign runner, fire two arrows back at the top platform. Make the 3rd lemming a runner as well. Rope with the 2nd lemming to turn the crowd around. Let the first runner build over the dragon, the other runner will run past the dragon unharmed.
Medieval X: Use the normal route, but pull the cataput to the left while the last lemming walks to the right. You get a 50 % chance of the catapult not picking up the lemming, otherwise the lemming gets flung back and will begin his journey anew. This saves a ballooner.

Outdoor III: Club bash into the big rock pile to the right of the blue flower, then have the basher rope up to the blue flower before he gets through. Rope to the highest point of the flying platform. Everybody should crawl up the platform with the exit now.
Outdoor VI: This uses 4 ropers only. Use two ropers to get everyone to the mushrooms. Have one rope into the air, so that the hook falls down on the platform right of the exit, to create a landing point. Rope to the exit.
Outdoor VII: Assign an attractor under the hatch. When everyone's out, have him jump. Just before the ex-attractor splats, make him a floater. Let him walk 1-2 pixels, make him a bomber. This will fling the crowd towards the left exit. Let the ex-attractor bazooka into his bomber crater to fling him over as well.
Outdoor VIII: Let a worker go up the rocky slope, this takes 1 attractor, 3 platformers. Fence through to the right, start very high so you'll reach the right side with more 2 platformers, plus 1 to reach the very top. The crowd will take this route as well.
Outdoor IX: See ccexplore's screenshots in reply #2 for a way to omit the builder from the followign 7-skill solution: Control the crowd with an archer. Build to the plant under the steel, bash towards the blossom. Rope to the steel, fire an arrow next to the hook to create a cavity. Free the crowd with a club basher, let them walk into the cavity. Build when they're all inside to trigger upwards crawling.
Outdoor X: See ccexplore's comment in Reply #2.

Shadow I: Flame throw into the first ramp to use the top route.
Shadow II: Guide a twister all the way to the bottem right, then fence through the roof.
Shadow III: On each side, flame throw, rope, fill.
Shadow IV: Jetpack over the the left and start working from there.
Shadow V: Let rock climber stick to the chain without any other skills, release him so that he falls down to the left. Platform twice and laser blast.
Shadow VI: Crawling route. Rope twice, then use the superlem to get back the lemming who overtook the first roper. See attachment for where to rope and superlem exactly.
Shadow VII: Standard 5-skill route.
Shadow VIII: Bash to the left. Use 4 bazookas to drop into the container above the cannons. You have to use each bazooka when you're on the leftmost pixel of the lowermost row of the previous crater. Bash free and platform.

Space II: Make two booters go counterclockwise. Explode the first one when he's above the second one on the destructible bar, this might require several attempts. The lower booter will fall due to lack of ground, and face to the left. Platform and fill.

Sports V: Standard route where you turn off the steam.
Sports VI: See ccexplore's attachment of reply #2.
Sports IX: Crawling route, just rope and glue pour. See attachment for where to rope.

-- Simon

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2010, 02:12:16 PM »
minor improvements on Medieval IV (8 skills) and VI (5 skills)
Medieval IX down to 4 skills--I think you over-complicated that one a little, Simon ;P
Outdoor VIII down to 9 skills
Outdoor X down to 3 skills

Outdoor IX: finally improved Simon's geoo's solution to 6 skills.  Screenshots attached for the critical pixel-precision moves showing the exact lemming and cursor placements.

Cavelem III down to 1 skill...I'm frankly a little surprised to see any other results reported for this seemingly busted level, so please read the hints section and confirm that my copy of the level works the same as yours!
Cavelem IV 4-skills confirmed
Cavelem VI down to 2 skills! :D See attached screenshots for the pixel-precise details.

Sports VII down to 4 skills.  It doesn't take much imagination to know that the ballooner is key, so I attached screenshots showing that it is indeed possible to navigate your ballooner to where you see it ends up.  Maybe I'll add a section later here or some other post for ballooner navigation tips......

Sports VI down to 4 skills.  See attached screenshots.  Solution loses 1 lemming but that's okay for gold for that level.  If someone finds a way to just use the roper alone to trigger the you-know-what, that would cut down 1 skill and also make the solution save all.

Cavelem VII down to 4 skills.  See attached screenshots.  (From now on I'll just update the one zip file with new screenshots.)

Space III down to 7 skills.  Screenshots aren't that useful since there's a bit of "luck" involved, but they are available on request.  There's a quick tip in the spoiler section.

Space V down to 4 skills.  I added the screenshots for that one in the zip file.  I even included in the zip a detailed text explanation of the solution.  [edit: D'oh!  Confirmed LemSteven's 3-skill solution.  You no longer have to deal with roping and ballooning at the same time, but the hairy ballooning is pretty much the same.  Screenshots updated.] Yes, it's that hairy.  Sports VII has nothing on this one......

Space VI: 6 skills.  There's one pixel-precise move which I added screenshots for in the zip file.  See spoiler section for tips.

Space IV: 5 skills.  Screenshots added to zip file.  Similar to Sports VI, if someone manages to do a better job with the 2nd roper, one could cut down 1 skill.

Space VII:  tried a bunch of stuff and can't get past 8 skills.  Ends up with 2 relatively tame such solutions.  Added some hints in spoiler section.

---------------

(starting new zip file for levels below, as the first one is getting pretty big...)

Rounding out the rest of Sports:

Sports VIII: 10 skills.  This is probably same as Pooty's solution w/o the direct-drop.  Success requires an obscure trick that requires very precise timing (down to a single frame).  See hints and/or screenshots.

Sports X:  12 skills.  This is mostly the standard solution, except for one shortcut, whose pixel-precise details you can find out in the screenshots (it's practically identical to the same moves in Outdoor IX--in fact I worked it out using the screenshots I had from that level).  And yes, I've also tried roping to the exit from the right side, but invariably the rope breaks or is too steep, so I've given up on that.

Rounding out the rest of Cavelem:

Cavelem VIII down to 7 skills.  This is a tricky one.  I've added screenshots in the zip, as well as a text version of the full solution in the spoiler section.

Cavelem IX: 7 skills!  This uses a glitch involving the parachuter, allowing everyone to eventually all get down through the path on the right!  I explained the glitch in the spoilers section, and added some screenshots in the zip as proof.

Cavelem X: 7 skills--standard solution

And so the grand total for Cavelem comes to 41, tying with just 1 skill behind Outdoor's current record.

Space VIII:  5 skills.  This solution is all about the chain.  Full solution included in spoilers; accompanying screenshots added to zip file.

(aside: seems like there's potential for using the Space VIII method on Highland VIII, though much harder as you need to manage the canon also.  No idea when/if I'll try that.)  [edit: time limit might be an issue, and swinging everyone into a narrow bash tunnel would require superhuman precision.]

Highland II: 5 skills.  Added screenshots to zip and an explanation of solution in spoilers.

And no, please don't ask me when I'm going to get to Highland IV.  Actually it wasn't too bad! I've gotten 15 skills for Highland IV.  Added screenshots to zip and explanations in spoilers.

Rounding out the rest of Space (total=55):

Space IX: 5 skills.  Yet another crawl route.  I have to use roper+another skill to trigger the crawling.  Given the limited places where crawling is effective, I doubt you can get it to work w/ just the roper.  Screenshots added to zip file.

Space X: 9 skills.  This uses a shortcut to set up the glue pourer lemming in 6 skills (including the glue pouring) instead of the standard 7.  See spoiler section and screenshots.  I'm so far unable to fully release the crowd with less than 3 skills.  [edit:  improve to 8, see new post]

=======================

Okay, this post is getting way too long.  I'm starting a new post now for new results.

=======================

Quote from: hint/spoiler
Medieval IX:  Ignore the first sentence in Simon's solution, switch the purposes of 2 skills, and that's pretty much the crux of my solution.  Waiting helps......

Outdoor VIII: platformers help everyone crawl up

Outdoor X: find the right place to stomp and you'll isolate a lemming

Cavelem III: if my level works like yours, falling off the right edge of the small mushroom next to the trampoline does not get you on the trampolines, so all you need to do is to establish a way to get up to that small mushroom.  You can do it with just one skill and it's pretty obvious which one.

Space III: it's a route going down and to the right, maximizing the amount of room for horizontal wandering back-and-forth crowd delay.  It's effectively a question of luck to make it work--you're good if no one overtakes your leader when he breaks through fencing to the right.  It'll be very close, making me believe a lower-skill solution is extremely unlikely (unless it's totally different).

Space VI: the skills-saving comes from assigning the "olympian lemming" runner and climber at the very start.  That works like a charm until you need the lemming to go down to the lower half of the level, instead of climbing to oblivion on the right end of the level.  That requires a particular skill assignment at a pixel-precise location--something to make it fall in a good way......

Space VII: You have plenty of options.  If you don't want to release the crowd using a stomper, there are at least 2 choices of 2-skill crowd releases.  If you do release the crowd with a stomper, stacker+platformer can make a survivable landing below.  If you only have bazookas left to get to the exit, 2 suffices (fire from afar so the projectiles land on the top portion of the obstacle, boring downwards from up there, instead of boring sideways through the thicker sloped section.

Sports VIII:  during the stacker's animation, there's a single frame in which he has just moved up onto the new brick but before turning around.

Cavelem VIII: have a left-facing lemming stack near the right wall of the bottom part of the pit everyone ends up in (see screenshot A).  You must stack at the pixel-exact location shown.  This will form a 2-pixel-wide pit between the stack and the left wall of the pit.

When the stacker has got up onto the final stack-brick and turned left, but BEFORE he shrugs, assign him a roller.  This will get him up the slope.  It won't work if you assign roller after the shrugging starts, or before he got onto the final brick, or if your stack isn't positioned exactly as shown.

Once he's walked left and went down and is stuck in a pit, have him fence left to continue further down the level, until he's stuck in the area above the exit.

Now wait until the entire crowd has come out, and your lone hero roughly about 8 pixels away from the left end of the pit, facing left.  Pause at that point, scroll back up to the crowd, and assign fencer.  Depending on your luck, you'll get someone to fence to the right, in such a way that the crowd doesn't spread out too much.  See screenshot E for what you're aiming for.

Scroll back down to the lone lemming, and have him jump up to the right end of the pit, and then just before he falls, assign him bomber.  The idea is to use the knockback of the explosion to reset the falling distance of the crowd, allowing everyone to survive.  You want to assign bomber roughly when the front of the crowd is maybe the height of 1 lemming away from splattering, if I remember correctly.  (I forgot to take a screenshot unfortunately.)  You're better off late than early, since splattering lemmings can still be revived by the explosion, whereas lemmings too high away will "miss" the force of the knockback.

Now everyone's just one fencer away from exiting.

Cavelem IX:  If you fan a parachuter against a wall, there's a frame in which he will actually stand at the wall, at which point you can assign him skill!  Moreover, if you assign him platformer at that point, there will be a 1-pixel gap between the wall and the first brick of the platform!  Just the perfect setup for this level!

Space VIII:  a.k.a the Tarzan level......

Pause when the level starts, and scroll to a position so that you can see both the wind-meter of the chain, as well as the teleport the left-entrance lemmings will come out from.  (See screenshot A for reference.)  Also make sure stomper skill is selected.  Now unpause and turn on fan mode, but don't fan yet.

Wait until the clock hits 3:44.  As soon as it does, immediately start fanning the chain.

Wait until the clock hits 3:39.  Pause as soon as it does, and assign stomper to 1st lemming from left entrance.  See screenshot A.  Pause immediately after skill assignment (as in, don't waste more than a frame or two).

Scroll the screen down, so that the full length of the chain, as well as the teleport at the lower-right corner of the level, are both visible.  Unpause and immediately continue fanning to maintain full wind-meter on the chain.

The timing should work out such that both the 1st and 2nd lemming from the left entrance will both be caught by the chain as they fall.  Moreover, they will be caught on the same link of the chain, which is important because lemmings on different links of the chain will be released at the same time, instead of one-by-one. It will also turn out that, as long as you maintain full wind on the chain, the chain's period of motion matches the rate of incoming lemmings very closely, so basically you can catch all 30 lemmings from the left entrance at the same link of the chain, one back-and-forth swinging of the chain per lemming!

However, we don't really have time to deal with all 30, so you need to start releasing one lemming ASAP to laser the floor below the left entrance, to cut off the flow of left-entrance lemmings onto the chain.  In executing the following moves, you must immediately pause after each mouse click, and then prepare to go back to fanning the chain when unpause, to maintain full wind on the chain:

1) release a lemming from the chain into the gridwork on the right.
2) assign that lemming rock climber, so he can eventually get into the teleport at the bottom right.  Watch for that lemming going into the teleport while you fan the chain.
3) as soon as the lemming disappears from the teleport (and while you continue fanning the chain), wait for about 5 and a half swings of the chain (one swing being half the chain's period of motion, counting left-to-right and right-to-left as 2 swings), then pause the game.
4) Scroll to the hero lemming.  He should be under where you'd use a laser blaster to allow the left-entrance lemmings to exit.  Use laser blaster.
5) Pause immediately and go back to fanning the chain again!

By freeing the left-entrance lemmings as soon as possible, you should end up with only about 20 lemmings on the chain.  When there are finally no more lemmings getting on the chain, you can start releasing them one-by-one to the left, where they will eventually get to the exit on their own.  Screenshots C and D shows roughly the position you want to release each lemming from, assuming you continue to maintain full-wind on the chain throughout.  Be careful not to release too high, or the lemming can end up on top of the structure instead of below.

(Because you don't have much time, you should strive to release a lemming each time the chain swings left.  You will actually end up with about 20-30 game seconds left that way, so you do have a little slack, just don't dawdle.)

Once the last lemming is off the chain, immediately have him stack to block any lemmings from heading to the right, then laser blast to free the remaining lemmings.

(Note on timing: sometimes the chain's wind meter doesn't reset when you restart the level using ESC key.  Above solution assumes the wind meter starts at nothing, as is the case when you get to the level from the menu screens instead of ESC-restart.  If you ESC-restart and find the wind meter already full, simply fast-forward until the meter dies down, then ESC-restart again.)

Highland II:  You can get out of the first pit using 2 arrows.  Basically fire one at a steep diagonal up-and-right direction at the top of the pit's right wall, and then fire another one at a shallower diagonal down-and-left direction at the floor.  The ends of the two arrows will touch, completing the path.  See screenshots A and B for an example [note: the lemming did move in that example between 1st and 2nd arrows.]

Now platform or fill over the next obstacle so you get to the top of the "fence", and then stomp at the pixel-precise location shown in screenshot C (look at screenshot D to see how the stomper's pit is located).

You'd notice with stompers and diggers, they will actually get into the steel for one row of pixels before quitting.  So if you assign fencer to the stomper when they're slightly below steel like that (see screenshot D), you can effectively start fencing one pixel lower than otherwise.  This is enough to allow the fencing to barely break through.  Yay!

Highland IV:  Have fifth lemming out throw standing at location shown in screenshot A.  1st lemming out will throw standing at location in screenshot B, and then throw again standing at location in screenshot C.  Immediately make 3rd and 4th lemmings pour filler.  This will allow escape from the pit w/o trapping any lemmings between the balls and the filler.  (See screenshot E.)

Now you need to throw 7 more balls standing at pixel-precise locations.  I'm lazy and did not include all the screenshots, but here are the locations:

1) 2 pixels right of where fifth lemming threw in screenshot A.
2) 3 pixels right of previous location in #1.
3) 4 pixels right of previous location in #2.
4) 3 pixels right of previous location in #3.
5) 4 pixels right of previous location in #4.
6) 4 pixels right of previous location in #5.
7) 3 pixels right of previous location in #6.

The end result should be screenshot F.  Now have someone pour to the right like in screenshot F.  Result is everyone can now get up the 8-ball staircase (screenshot G).  Finally, when a lemming reaches the very top of the topmost ball, start fencing to the right, and then make him jump to stop fencing when appropriate (screenshot H).

Space X:  The idea is to shoot the bazooka to the right with a lemming standing at the left wall of the pit.  Timed right with a runner lemming that you've jumped off the edge, the bazooka's explosion will fling the lemming onto the exit platform.  He can then bazooka to turn himself around and then pour glue.  See screenshots.

Offline LemSteven

  • Posts: 559
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2010, 11:40:38 PM »
I can get us started on a few tribes:

Beach 1 -- 4
Beach 2 -- 4
Beach 3 -- 5
Beach 4 -- 4

Sports 2 -- 2
Sports 3 -- 5
Sports 4 -- 6  Edit: 5

Circus 1 -- 4
Circus 2 -- 2
Circus 3 -- 5
Circus 4 -- 3

Solution details are available upon request.

Edit 2:  Highland 3 is improved to 3.

Quote from: Spoiler
  Build 2x starting 2 blocks before the red floor begins (it has to be in a pretty precise spot).  If done properly, the lemmings will fall off the top of the bridge, bounce off two trampolines, and make their way up to the ledge on the right side of the level (the one with 2 trampolines on it).

From this ledge, build one more bridge starting about halfway between the edge of the left trampoine and the little blue triangle.  Once again, it has to be pixel-precise.  If this is done properly, the lemmings will fall off the bridge, bounce off three trampolines, and head directly to the exit.

Offline Pooty

  • Posts: 359
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2010, 12:35:20 PM »
Not long ago, I did this for the Sports tribe on the SNES version. When I get back home tonight, I'll dig the data up, find out which ones apply to the DOS version, and post it here.

[Edit] Levels 1, 5, 6 and 10 are too different to be of any use for this challenge (though if you want to know what I got, they were 2, 4, 7 and 9 skills, respectively).

The scores I got for levels 2, 3 and 4 are equal to LemSteven's, so...

Level 7 - 8 skills
Level 8 - 9 skills
Level 9 - 2 skills
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3860
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2010, 10:06:05 PM »
I updated the grid with all of your solutions. I verified some of them, and believe others. Eveyone's made great efforts so far.

ccexplore:
Cavelem III: This is 1-skill, yep. <_<; We were talking about the grid in IRC yesterday, and were pretty sure we got all the 1's already...
Medieval IX: I've tried this one several times now, but couldn't get a 4-skill route to work yet. Is this one very pixel-precise?
Outdoor IX: The original 7-skill route was thought up geoo, credit where credit is due. ;-)

LemSteven:
Beach II: I'm trying to 3-skill this level right now by doing the 4-skill solution faster, but I'm not sure if it's possible. 4 might be the optimum. Edit: Got the 3-skill route, see attachment of reply #1.
Beach III: I couldn't reproduce a 5-skill solution, and were going to ask you for directions. Then I found a 4-skill one right now (attachment in reply #1), but still consider 5 for this and 4 for Beach II fine hacks.
Sports III: I've not found a 5-skill route yet, and would like to know it.

Pooty:
Sports IX is still 2-skill on the DOS version as well, just verified this (attachment in reply #1). I believe the mechanics stay the same between the versions.
I haven't had a good go at the other sports levels yet, but those numbers sound efficient already. I vaguely remember ccexplore having found an odd route for Sun Sign Selection, but I don't know any more if it was skill efficient.

-- Simon

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2010, 10:17:58 PM »
Medieval IX: I've tried this one several times now, but couldn't get a 4-skill route to work yet. Is this one very pixel-precise?

No pixel precision for that one.  I guess some aspects of the solution may be a little non-obvious, although I expected with just 4 skills there are only a limited number of things for people to try.  I'll PM you the solution details.  I might add a hint for that level in my post.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2010, 10:44:07 PM »
I vaguely remember ccexplore having found an odd route for Sun Sign Selection, but I don't know any more if it was skill efficient.

It probably wasn't me; I don't remember anything about that level at all.  But I'm happy to take a look at that level now. ;P

edit: well, whatever that "odd route" was it definitely wasn't me.  I just managed a 4 skill solution for that level, but it's only relatively recently that I've mastered the art of ballooner navigation well enough to even dream of trying it.  So if that was the "odd route from ccexplore" I'd definitely remember it.

Offline LemSteven

  • Posts: 559
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2010, 11:09:30 PM »
Beach III: I couldn't reproduce a 5-skill solution, and were going to ask you for directions. Then I found a 4-skill one right now (in my Reply #1), but still consider 5 a fine hack.

The only difference between your solution and mine is that mine used a canoer over the water at the beginning.  Oops.  :P

Sports III: I've not found a 5-skill route yet, and would like to know it.

Quote from: Spoiler
1.  Make a lemming an Attractor at the top so that one lemming gets past.
2.  The lemming that gets past drops down to a ledge below and turns around.  Make him a Platformer before he falls again.
3.  The lemming will drop down (safely) to the ground below.  Let him hit the pool table and turn around.  He will drop through a gap and approach a small pit.  Make him Platform over this pit.
4.  When the leader reaches the little Y-shaped hole (between the two red and white posts), make him platform over the left side of the hole.  He should fall down the right side and head left, following a path that leads to the exit.
5.  Release the Attractor by making him jump.

Also, I have a few more scores:

Polar 1:  6
Polar 2:  6
Polar 3:  4
Polar 4:  3

Classic 2:  8
Classic 4:  8
Classic 5:  9

Once again, solutions/hints are available upon request.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold (ballooner navigation tips)
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2010, 11:42:34 PM »
Here are some useful tips for when you need to exert very fine control over navigation of your ballooner (though often there're still an unhealthy dose of luck here and there I'm afraid).

  • Keyboard shortcuts are crucial!  Just as "P" pauses, the SpaceBar key switches to fan mode just as if you click on the fan icon.  As you know, activating fan mode automatically unpauses, so using the keyboard shortcut is the only way to reliably have your mouse cursor at the right place beforehand.

  • With the keyboard shortcuts, you can now scroll the screen to keep your ballooner in view, without fear of losing control over the fanning:  just keyboard-pause before you scroll, then after scrolling, place your mouse back to the desired position, then holding down mouse button and keyboard-activate fan to continue.

  • As long as you're not too close to the level's top boundary, pushing a ballooner downward or keeping it stationary is actually pretty easy:  the fan's strength depends on how close it is to the balloon, so if the fan is at the right distance away and vertically above the ballooner, you can balance the force of the wind against the balloon's buoancy exactly so that the balloon's perfectly stationary.  Then you can slowly and carefully nudge your mouse downward to carefully nudge your ballooner perfectly vertically downward.

  • Using roughly the same idea, you can also nudge your ballooner horizontally left and right:  keep your mouse at the same vertical distance above for vertical stationarity, and then move your mouse left or right until it's about diagonally away from the balloon, and at some point it will allow the balloon to slowly drift left/right horizontally.

    This is trickier though because once the balloon drifts far enough away horizontally from the fan, you start to lose vertical control, so you'll need to pause every now and then to readjust the position of your cursor.

I'm still relatively new to this, so I'll add more tips here if I discover anything new.

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3860
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2010, 05:25:20 AM »
Also this hint, I don't know if it's already obvious from your notes:

  • While fanning, if you pause to reposition the cursor or screen, do not let go of the left mouse button at all. When you continue with [Spacebar], the fan will be at top speed again. Only mouse clicks, not mouse holds, end the pause.

I believe this creates new opportunities for pause hacks. A single laser blaster should now be enough to get the jetpacker up in Cavelem IX. The real showcases are your Sports VII solution, and Space V with the high precision fanning while roping at the same time.

-- Simon

Offline LemSteven

  • Posts: 559
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2010, 07:57:15 AM »
I've spent some time focusing on Circus 6, and surprisingly got it down to just four skills:

Quote from: Spoiler
The first lemming fences to allow everyone to walk to the right.  The lemmings will walk across too small dips; make the third lemming a glue pourer as he is walking out of the second dip.  Two lemmings will be in front of him; make the second of those two lemmings a bomber a couple of steps before falling off the cliff.

If this is all done properly, the following should happen:
1) The first lemming will be flung over the gap toward the exit; he must land to the left of the trampoline below.
2) Most of the glue will accumulate in the bomber's hole, but a small amount should go over the cliff, where it will create a one pixel wide ledge so that everyone can drop safely to the cannon at the bottom of the level.
3) The bomber will be injured, allowing for the glue to settle before he gets up and drops off the cliff.

The lemming that is flung over the gap must bomb when he is above the trampoline.  Finally, align the cannon properly so that the lemmings land on the trampoline, which should bounce them through the last bomber's hole and up to the exit.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2010, 12:03:56 PM »
As I've just discovered and noted on the Lemmings 2 glitch thread, it looks like direct drop doesn't work on DOS Lemmings 2.  Pooty's 9-skill Sports 8 solution requires direct drop AFAIK, so unless someone actually got that to work in DOS Lemmings 2, I think we need to remove that result from the scoreboard. :(

To be fair, there's a small chance I made a mistake during my testing.  But it's small enough that I'm taking the failure of direct drop as fact until proven otherwise.

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1473
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2010, 07:18:09 PM »
Yeah, in the tries I had on Outdoor 6, I didn't get it to work either.

Here are some very prelimiary results, meaning I didn't double-check most of them yet and there's likely room for improvement. I just wanted so have some kind of upper bound, and from that it seems that indeed Outdoor will end up with least skills required. On that note, it seems that Outdoor and Medieval provided more opportunity for interesting solutions than the others do. EDIT3: Well, in hindsight Cavelem proved to be pretty interesting as well, especially with such efficient solutions to VIII and IX.

Beach       -   -   -   -  4?  7? 12?  7?   -  5?
Circus      -   -   -   -  5?   -  5?   -   -   -
Egyptian    -   -   -   -  9?   2  3?  8?   -   -
Polar       -   -   -   - 10?   3  4?   5  8?   4
Shadow    10?   2  6?  7?  4?   3  5?   6   - 10?

EDIT: Polar VI down to 3, exactly the same solution, just without one useless skill waste.
Shadow VI improved to 3 by Simon using a better approach.

Shadow 8 can almost certainly be reduced to 6, using the cannon pause behaviour (EDIT: 6-skill solution now confirmed):

As you might have noticed, at times lemmings get stuck in the cannon when you pause the game; this behaviour can be used to get two lemmings that are rather close to each other to be both launched by the cannon, even though under normal circumstances the second lemming would bypass the cannon before it's ready. In essence, the cannon action consists of two parts: in the first part the lemming is igniting the cannon, and in the second one the lemming is launched (the latter is when the cannon changes its animation frame). In the meantime the lemming walks to the front of the cannon to get into it. However if you pause the game, part one of the cannon action will still run, while the lemming will stand still. This results in the launching animation being triggered while the lemming is still standing in front of the cannon; the animation is not affected by pausing. Any lemmings that are currently in the cannon will be flung out during this, and no lemming may ignite the fuse at this time. However as soon as this animation is done, the next lemming can already ingnite the fuse, even if the current lemming isn't in the cannon yet. In effect you save the time the ignition takes, which takes the largest portion of one cannon cycle.

Screenshots to various of my solutions, some older, some newer, are attached. Outdoor 6 is a timing inprovement on Simon original route using the hook to enlargen the ledge.

Offline LemSteven

  • Posts: 559
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2010, 09:17:10 PM »
Geoo's Circus scores match what I have.  Also, I've got 4 skills for Circus 9:
Quote from: Spoiler
The first lemming pole vaults from a pixel-precise position a couple steps after entering the level; he should get caught on one of the blocks above the exit and fall safely, facing left.  Make him platform over the gap and use a magic carpet to get him to the ledge above and to the left.  Finally, laser blast to free the crowd.

I've also improved Space 5 down to 3 skills! 8)  The general idea is actually quite simple, but still frustratingly difficult to execute, as it requires both speed and precision with a ballooner.
Quote from: Spoiler
Make the first lemming a ballooner as soon as you can, and quickly direct him down to the lower of the two ledges below.  Pop the balloon and fire a rope from the edge of the steel to catch the others.  This all has to be extremely quickly, so that the rope is fired before any lemmings fall to their deaths.  Finally, use a bomber at the beginning of the rope.

Finally, I've got a 6-skill solution for Classic 10 using the crawling trick.  It's a bit trickier than Classic 7, though, because you have to save the blocker in the end.

Edit:  More scores:

Highland 5:  6 (I can't find anything better than the intended solution.)
Highland 6:  6 (Again, nothing out of the ordinary)
Highland 7:  1 (This one should be pretty obvious, but the time limit actually makes this somewhat challenging.)
Highland 8:  4 (Involves a backroute; see detailed solution below.)
Quote from: Spoiler
Move the cannon halfway over and let one lemming use it, then move the cannon all the way to the right.  The first lemming platforms when he reaches a gap; he will hit a wall and turn around.  Use the fan to get the chain going to full blast; the goal is to catch the lemming on the chain as he falls to the left.  Release him from the chain when it is moving left and if you're lucky he will get hurt on the uneven rock wall at the left side of the water.  Bash as soon as he gets up, and then platform to the exit as soon as he's done bashing.  Finally, laser blast to free the crowd immediately before he exits.

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1473
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2010, 02:43:01 PM »
To round out Highland (well, except for the two levels at the beginning still missing; now who's gonna try 'A mere stone's throw'? :P), here are the scores for the last two levels:

Highland IX: 7 skills (It's possible to guide the lemming with the icarus wings through the narrow path at the top; you still need two Flame throwers and platformers each to set up the way for the crowd though - while you can get through with one flame thrower, the platform will end up too high then.)
Highland X: 3 skills (Nothing new there, save perhaps for flinging lemmings out of the water that are already drowning, but it's nice because it's surprisingly easy to execute.)

Offline LemSteven

  • Posts: 559
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2010, 01:51:39 AM »
Rounding out Circus:

Circus 8 -- 8 (More abuse of the crawling trick; see below)
Circus 10 -- 10 (Pretty much the standard solution)  Edit:  See geoo's improvement below.

And to finish up Shadow:

Shadow 9 -- 3 (More roper-induced crawling)

Quote from: Circus 8 Spoiler
Follow the regular solution until you get to the right side of the level.  Make a lemming a scooper at the far right edge of the level, and then make him jump mid-scoop.  If you jump him at the right time, there should be a small step at the right side of his tunnel that the lemmings can walk up. 

The next part is where you set up the crawling trick.  Make a lemming platform left from the little step in the tunnel.  He will lay down two bricks and hit the other side of the tunnel.  From this platform, build another platform going right.  Finally, stomp at the far left edge of the first platform.  The stomper should only take one stomp and then walk off to the right.  As long as the right ends of the two platforms are still intact, the lemmings should get stuck in the little step, triggering the crawling trick.

The lemmings should crawl all of the way up to the very top-right corner of the level and walk to the left.  All that's left to do is stomp when you're over the exit.

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1473
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2010, 08:11:12 AM »
I got Circus X down to 8 using a crawling route again. Some screenshots are attached. I might be possible to get this route down to 7 skills, but I'm not sure whether the timing works out:

Quote
After scooping, club bash through one of the pedestals to allow one lemming to get ahead. Have him platform under the steel which goes up to the top. The crowd should be on its way while the platformer is not fully done; at that point use a filler. Part of it will go beyond the platform, while the rest will be kept on it. If done correctly, there should be a 1-pixel step on the platform now. Use the stacker to decrease the width of that step to 1 pixel and get one lemming up to scoop to the exit. Use the second platformer to create the 1 pixel wide gap required for crawling. As the platformer will face left at the top, you'll have to use an additional filler.
It might be possible to first use the platformer, and then have that lemming stack so that no-one will walk to the left at the top, however the following lemmings seem to be so close that the scooper gets taken over, so that depending on where you scoop, some lems will either walk into the wrong direction on the elevated ball, or splat on the pedestal.

----------

Nice work on the last levels of Cavelem, especially 'Wilma!'. I wouldn't have thought it'd be possible to get VIII and IX down that far!
Cavelem proved to have pretty interesting solutions in general, like Outdoor did; though I managed to get the Outdoor score improved by 1 down to 40, as I found a 4-skill solution to Outdoor IV 'Deliverance', one screenshot attached:

Quote
Make the first lemming roper at the edge; while he's setting up the roping device, have the second one start glueing. Have the roper shoot backwards, so that the glue goes over a 1-pixel overhang of the hook. When he falls into to water, give him a kayak, while having a second lemming glue another time at the top.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2010, 01:01:41 AM »
I managed to get the Outdoor score improved by 1 down to 40, as I found a 4-skill solution to Outdoor IV 'Deliverance', one screenshot attached:

Excellent! :thumbsup: I've been wondering about 4-skill solution on that level ever since seeing this rather sketchy screenshot from the Lemmings Encyclopedia  :-\.  Needless to say I never got it to work like that questionable screenshot (though to be fair, it could be a weird Amiga/PC difference, and Simon did say he had once seen a partial rope when roping near the water surface, but hasn't yet been able to replicate that feat).  Never thought of using the roper the way you did!

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1473
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2010, 12:45:26 PM »
Despite using the Lemmings Solution (or now called Encyclopedia) for reference if I don't remember a level offhand, I never actually look at the solutions depicted, so I didn't notice that yet. So I started up WinUAE with Lemmings 2 (now I know where the 'ouch' sound comes from that the Lemmings make when landing on their back in L++, in my DOS L2 it doesn't sound as nice, though perhaps there's a CD version again), and tried this solution. While my solution doesn't work as you cannot assign a skill while aiming with the roper/archer (the latter which I noticed works as well in DOS for this solution, and is even easier to execute), there's a 3-skill solution in the Amiga version, similar to the one depicted on the Lemmings Encyclopedia, just without using the kayaker. It's some subtle difference that makes it work: the anchor the roper sets has an T-shape, while on DOS it's an I-shape. It's similarly subtle like the difference that allows to solve Egyptian X with 3 skills and Space I with 1 on the Amiga, using the mortar to get through the 8-pixel floor from the top, while in DOS you can only get down 7 pixels. Another difference I noticed is that you can accelerate the icarus wings horizontally on the Amiga, so it's likely there are more subtle differences like this.

Are you sure you can rule out the Tarzan route (which is amazing, btw) for Highland VIII just because of the time limit? Sending the lems over with the cannon should take about 3 minutes if you send them over in packs of 2 every fourth lemmings, or just send over every second one, so the chain frequency equals the lemming frequency (and I'm not even sure whether it matches as perfectly as in 'Odyssey', for some reason). I think more of an issue is actually executing it, because it seems incredibly tough to land every single one in the thin basher tunnel. Also because apparently the chain doesn't catch the lemmings when they get flung directly from the cannon, you'll end up using 3 skills, as you can't both change their directions and turn them into regular fallers without the platformer at the right. Would still be an improvement over the current record though, but I wonder whether it's humanly possible.

Offline LemSteven

  • Posts: 559
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2010, 09:58:09 PM »
Nice job ccexplore with your Highland 2 and 4 solutions!  :thumbsup:

Right now the best I've got for Classic 8 is 11 skills.  It's pretty much just the standard solution, using a climber, a blocker, a builder, two bashers, a miner, and five diggers.

I've also had a go at Egyptian 10, and it appears that the 3-skill solution shown in The Lemmings Encyclopedia does not work because the mortar's crater isn't quite big enough to break through the floor.  I was still able to use the same general idea elsewhere for a 9-skill solution.  (See spoiler below)

Quote from: Spoiler
Use five sand pourers to get everyone out of the first pit.  Before anyone starts walking down the stairs to the left, make the leader a glue pourer.  This will prevent anyone from falling past this stairway.  Now pick a lemming who is walking up the stairs and make him a mortar so that everyone can get into the tiny room on the right.  Finally, make use two glue pourers in this room to fill the gaps in the passageway ahead.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2010, 02:39:49 PM »
Starting a new post for new results:

Space X: improved to 8 skills.  A slight modification of my 9-skill solution that finally can get everyone out of the pit in 2 skills instead of 3.  See spoiler/screenshot for details.

Beach V: improved to 3 skills by eliminating waste of skills purely for crowd control.  See spoiler/screenshot for details.

Beach VII: improved to 10 skills.  The standard solution actually is doable in 11 skills if you do it right.  For 10 skills, we take a shortcut using some precision moves with the tree left of the red bucket.  See spoiler/screenshot for details.

Beach X:  improved to 4 skills by eliminating waste of skills purely for crowd control, using some precision moves.  See spoiler/screenshot for details.

[edit: added more results below Mar 21 2010]

Circus V:  standard solution improved to 4 skills, again by minimizing crowd-control skill waste.  See spoiler/screenshot for details.

Egyptian IX: got 8 skills via a crawling route.  See spoiler/screenshots.

Egyptian X: improved to 7 skills, thanks to one of the glitches ClamSpammer discovered a while ago, making it possible to get a lemming outside the pyramid in 3 skills.  See spoiler/screenshots.

[edit: start new zip file for new results below]

Polar II: improved to 5, no 4 skills.  Most likely a slight improvement to the same solution LemSteven first reported. (Actually on second thought, maybe this is totally new.)  Borderline glitch(es)?  See screenshots/spoiler.  Okay, I've now improved it down to 3 skills 8)!  See spoiler/screenshots for details.

Polar V:  improved to 8 skills.  Miscellaneous improvements from standard solution.  See screenshots/spoiler.

[edit: more results, I think Classic is the only tribe left that I haven't looked at in detail]

Polar III: finally improved to 3 skills.  Took forever to come up with where to rope to trigger crawling.  See screenshots.

Polar IX: improved to 6 skills.  Another roper-induced crawling, a little easier to discover.  See screenshots/spoilers.

Shadow VIII:  improved to 5 skills.  And you don't even need the cannon-pause trick!  See screenshots/spoilers.

Shadow X: improved to 8 skills.  See screenshots/spoilers.

By the way, Simon, there's a typo in your table.  Space X is 8 not 6.  The total for Space (54) is correct though.

Quote from: hints/spoilers
Space X:  have 1st lemming out bazooka to the left at the position shown in screenshot A.  This will fling the 2nd lemming (our hero) barely out of the pit, as shown in screenshot B.  When hero walks to about the center of the middle of the 3 steel blocks, have the lemming in the pit that just turned around the left wall to fire bazooka to the right (screenshot C).  Then quickly assign hero runner and then jumper at exactly the positions shown in screenshots D and E.  The running jump plus the bazooka explosion's knockback, timed correctly, will be able to get the hero onto the exit platform (screenshot F).

Hero will fire bazooka to turn himself around, then pour glue.  Let him run back to the left and into the right half of the pit.  Now wait for everyone to come out of the entrance, then have hero fire bazooka to the left, pressing against the barrier separating the two halves of the pit (see screenshots G).  This will accomplish 3 things:

1) fling your hero out of the pit so he can exit
2) completely remove the barrier (for some reason, it wouldn't work quite right if you try to do this from the left half of the pit)
3) the knockback will fling the crowd against the left wall of the pit, resulting in the crowd being more compressed

The compression of the crowd will enable you to get everyone out using just one more bazooka (screenshots H and I).

Beach V:  Starting fencing through the obstacle at exactly the position shown in screenshot A.  This will work out to create maximum (well, sufficient anyway) separation between frontmost lemming and the one behind it, when fencer breaks through (screenshot B).  Then have the front lemming build, and as soon as the build brick is laid down, even before he steps up onto it, start pouring (screenshot C).  The glue will be ready just in the nick of time to ensure everyone gets to the exit (screenshot D).

Beach VII:  Here's the shortcut: when the hero lemming gets to near the top of the tree left of the red bucket, assign him miner at exactly the position shown in screenshot A.  Now watch the miner's animation and wait until he starts taking a step down, then assign him jumper (screenshot B).  His jumping will reflect off the tree's leaves on the right, make him end up on top of one of the tree's left leaves facing left (screenshot C).

Beach X:  Scoop at exactly the positions shown in screenshots A and B, as soon as possible.  The end result will be screenshot C, in which you maximize the separation of the frontmost lemming from the rest.  Then complete the rest of the path using 2 archers, as shown in screenshots D-F.

Circus V:  The only crowd control is to have 2nd lemming bash at position shown in screenshot A, to give sufficient delay to allow first lemming to platform to seal off the right end.  Then have lemming scoop to the left near the top, at position shown in screenshot C.  This will basically allow him to break through so close to the top that it only takes one platform-brick to bridge the gap to the exit, which you can do in time (screenshots D, E).

Egyptian IX:  Bash through the first obstacle, and then start stomping very close to the trap trigger (screenshot A), which should prevent anyone from triggering the trap.  Then use a basher, 2 stompers and 2 bombers to pave the way through to the area below the exit (screenshots B and C).  Note that you must assign the final bomber at a height below the nearby steel block's top surface in order to break through (screenshot B).  This is possible because the stomper stops stomping only after he gets below the steel, and if he's sufficiently to the left, the leftmost columns of pixels of the stomper tunnel will be off the steel and therefore can be taken out.  Finally platform at place shown in screenshot D to trigger crawling.

Egyptian X:  ClamSpammer's hopper glitch--if you assign someone hopper just as he turns around from a wall, he will start hopping vertically up the wall and through any ceilings that may be present.

To use it here, have the first lemming shimmy near position shown in screenshot A.  He'll shimmy on the ceiling corner for a pixel or so and then turn around heading left.  Now apply hopper glitch to that lemming as he turns around at the left wall.

Just before he completely goes through, at position shown in screenshot C, assign him sand pourer.  This is to stop his hopping there, which allows him to continue going to the right--if you just let it naturally hop out, he will end up heading left instead.

Now get to the area below where the crowd is trapped and free them with the mortar.  It should be obvious how to do so with 1 slider, 2 glue pourers, and 1 mortar.

Polar 2: The two key ideas:

1) you can break through the floor using two well-placed flamethrowers.
2) you don't need the skater!  Due to a quirk with the way the ice works, each time a slipping lemming went back and forth once, he will actually drift slightly (maybe a pixel or so) in the direction he was facing before he began slipping.  So gradually he'll move off the ice if given enough time.

This leads directly to the 3-skill solution:  fence through the snowman, then after the lemmings turn around at the tree heading left, assign flamethrower at the positions shown in screenshots A and B (basically as far bottom and then to the right of the valley, and then same of the pit from the first flamethrower).

This will break through the floor, creating a path where all lemmings fall onto the ice facing left.  Now fast forward and wait.  The slipping lemmings will gradually drift left and will eventually exit.  The first one to exit is when the clock's around 1:40, and the last one around 0:14 (screenshot C).  The reason there's no 2-skill solution is because if the lemmings fall onto ice facing right, you'll run out of time long before many of them can exit.

Polar 5:  1st lemming out rope to the tree on the left immediately, as quickly as possible.  The 2nd lemming out will overtake him, but the idea is to have the 1st lemming out be following as close as possible to the 2nd lemming out.  Now, when the 2nd lemming out (now at the front) is close to the snowball left of the tree (screenshot A), assign him bomber.  The  1st lemming out (if you did the roping quickly so that he stays close) will overtake the 2nd lemming just as the explosion occur, causing him to the flung to the left, hit his head on the treeless island above, and turn faller (screenshot B).  The flinging and the lack of swooning will put him far ahead of the crowd (screenshot C).  Now just finish the rest of the path to the exit (screenshot D).  I've failed to find a way to do so in less than 6 skills.

Polar 3:  the screenshots tell you exactly where and how to rope to trigger crawling to the exit area.

Polar 9:  screenshot A shows you a spot you can build to seal off the left end of the starting platform without losing anyone.  Then jump a lemming up on the left to prepare the rest of the path to the exit.  Screenshots C-E show where to place the cannon, and where/how to rope to trigger crawling.  You'll also need to use the cannon pause trick (see geoo's reply #13) to ensure not runing out of time.

Shadow 8:  bash to the left at the bottom of the slope (screenshot A).  After the basher breaks through, a lemming will overtake him.  Just as that lemming starts to fall (screenshot B), assign the basher bazooka.  The timing of the knockback from the bazooka will knock the falling lemming into one of the pixel-sized protrusions off the column below and to the right (screenshot C), allowing him to platform from there to create a step to make the fall safe for everyone (screenshot D).  (The knockback also turns around nearby lemmings in the bash tunnel to ensure you have enough time to platform.)  The rest is obvious.

Shadow 10:  Assign 2nd lemming out SuperLem as soon as possible, and immediately pause.  Switch skill selector to builder, and when the 1st lemming out has past the middle of the smaller steel block, assign him builder (screenshot A) and pause immediately.  Move the mouse cursor all the way to the right past the 3 traps, to the upper-right corner of the steel block before the fall (screenshot B).  Unpause and wait for SuperLem to fly to the cursor and crash there (screenshot C), pausing immediately when the crash occurs.  Make the builder pour glue now, and then when a walker lemming is up on the glue platform and past the leftmost trap (screenshot D), make him pour glue too.  The resulting glue platform will span past all 3 traps.

Back to your former-SuperLem (aka hero), have him build at the very edge before the drop to water, and then as soon as the build brick is laid, have him pour glue.  As shown in screenshot E, most of the glue will span across the water-gap, and then there'll be just a little bit left over that will end up at the bottom of the right edge, creating a step to make the fall safe.

Make hero plant at exactly the position shown in screenshot E.  The plant will span the gap in question, and will also cause your hero to turn left immediately after planting, giving sufficient separation for him to build over the pit before the exit in time for the crowd (screenshot F).

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2010, 02:56:24 PM »
Are you sure you can rule out the Tarzan route (which is amazing, btw) for Highland VIII just because of the time limit?  <snip>

Yeah, the time limit comment was just a rough guess based on how much time the Space VIII solution took, but then again I didn't really optimize that solution for time fully.  Execution will likely be the bigger pain point, as you noted with landing the lemmings in the basher tunnel.  I've also briefly tried it out and still haven't quite got the hang with handling the cannon, as you need to be careful with your pausing to maintain the correct firing frequency from the cannon, not to mention the need to move the cannon slightly to make it "skip" the first few lemmings while the hero's platforming.

Oh, and one more thing that I've tried and failed:  I was hoping I can swing a lemming sufficiently to the right so that when released, he's stuck inside the terrain and ends up crawling, making him face left instead of right, then re-catch him on the chain.  Unfortunately it doesn't work as the chain doesn't swing high enough to get the lemming stuck inside any terrain.

[edit: with regards to the above paragraph, I forgot to mention that you can actually catch lemmings on the chain facing right, if you position the cannon I think about 1 to 1.5 8-pixel block from leftmost position.  What would happen is that the flung lemming will get snagged at the left end of the terrain above the chain object, turning them into right-facing fallers which could then be caught by the chain.  But as noted in above paragraph, I'm unable to find any way to make one such lemming end up back on the chain again facing left instead of right, without using any skills.]

=========

Thanks also for looking at the Amiga version.  I didn't realize there are so many little differences here and there in the game mechanics!  Then again, I guess it's just like the little differences in Lemmings 1 DOS vs Amiga, only times 6 now that there are 51 skills instead of 8.

Offline LemSteven

  • Posts: 559
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2010, 11:18:14 PM »
I've got a couple more improvements:

Beach 6 -- 6 (Yet another application of roper-induced crawling)
Beach 8 -- 6 (Avoids crowd control) EDIT:  Make that 5.  Apparently I didn't push my own method far enough.  Delaying the second lemming is not necessary, but getting an arrow fired quickly enough to save him is extremely hairy.

Edit:  I've got 11 skills for both classic 6 and Classic 9 10 skills for Classic 6 and 11 skills for classic 9.  Classic 6 is the standard solution, but Classic 9 requires a few precision moves (see below).

3/25 Edit:  Classic 2 is doable with 7 skills using at least two different methods.  I honestly don't know how I missed this earlier. :P

Classic 6 is down to 10.  I'm still using the standard route, but I was able to manage the crowd more efficiently (and it's so simple that once again I can't believe I missed this earlier).

Quote from: Spoilers
Beach 6:  Make the first lemming balloon over the tree, and then platform over the water.  Make him scoop as soon as he's to the right of the steel, and when he lands on the grass below, make him scoop again.  He should end up walking toward the trap under the exit.  From here, you're simply a roper-induced crawl away from the exit.  Finally, release the crowd by using a club basher through the tree.

Beach 8:  Give the first lemming a magic carpet as soon as he lands.  Use the fan to blow him down to the third of the three small floating islands below; he has to transform back to a walker as soon (i.e. as far to the left) as possible.  Immediately make him an archer and fire an arrow to the bottom right corner of the ledge that the crowd falls off of.  If you're quick enough, this arrow should arrive just in time to catch the next lemming as he falls.  The rest of the level requires two more archers and a builder, and should be self-explanatory.

Classic 9:  Make the second lemming build to slow him down.  The first lemming builds as close to the edge as possible.  The third lemming has to block on the first step of the first lemiming's bridge; place the cursor as low as possible to avoid selecting the builder.  The first lemming bashes the column and digs immediately after turning around at the wall.  Just before he runs out of stuff to dig, make him build; he should ultimately end up on the steel below.  Build over the water, climb the column, build to the next wall, and mine to reach the exit.  Finally, release the blocker with a miner.
(Note that I do believe stalling the second lemming is necessary; otherwise when he reaches the builder's first brick, the builder will still be on it.  This makes it impossible to avoid selecting the builder when assigning the blocker.)

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2010, 11:42:19 PM »
Well I was going to post my results for Classics but it looks like LemSteven is getting to them now finally. :P  I'll just say that I only found 3 levels with improvements, and all are simple miscellaneous improvements over a standard solution.  LemSteven just gave 2 of them as of this moment, I think I'll give him the chance to find the last one.

I was however able to improve my Sports 10 results down to 11 skills.  You can say I was inspired to take a second look partly after LemSteven's archery for Beach 8, and after much experimentation I finally got the archery to work in my favor (I had the basic idea before, but didn't think I can shoot the arrows fast enough/high enough/at a good enough angle to achieve full coverage of gap with this method.)  See attached screenshots (I re-included the old screenshots for the crawling part as well, which is why the skill counts for those 3 don't match with the other new screenshots.)  I think it's slightly more forgiving than Beach 8 but you should still try to be pixel-precise to the screenshots given.

Offline LemSteven

  • Posts: 559
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2010, 02:09:28 AM »
Well I was going to post my results for Classics but it looks like LemSteven is getting to them now finally. :P  I'll just say that I only found 3 levels with improvements, and all are simple miscellaneous improvements over a standard solution.  LemSteven just gave 2 of them as of this moment, I think I'll give him the chance to find the last one.

Okay, I was able to eliminate a digger from the beginning of Classic 8, bringing that total down to 10.  Was that the same thing you found?

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2010, 02:24:13 AM »
Yes. :thumbsup:

Of course, don't let that stop you or anyone from looking at the Classic tribes or any of the other levels.  While I felt I've given all levels scrutiny at this point, I do and can miss stuff every now and then.

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1473
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2010, 12:37:31 PM »
Yep, got Classic 8 down to 6 skills. I'm kinda surprised that you've overlooked that:

Quote
After blocking off at the start, bash into the wall, and when the basher is about to surpass the steel floor, have a lemming in front of the basher dig, however still close enough to the steel. If done correctly, the digger will remove two pixel layers and then stop, taking the basher down by two pixels which is barely sufficient to make the fall survivable. Build, bash and mine.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2010, 03:07:28 PM »
Good job! :thumbsup:  Didn't think of using the steel that way to stop digging.

Here's another improvement of one of my previous results:  Space 8 now down to 4 skills!  This came about directly from the "skills you can't live without" effort.  Still the Tarzan solution, only that it turns out you can just laser to release the trapped lemmings at the bottom and have all of them go left.  I've attached screenshots, and spoiler section below describes the timing details.

Quote
The key is that if you laser the bottom crowd as soon as possible, and laser as far to the left as allowed to break through, together with good timing you can have it so that no right-going lemmings are standing on where the laser breaks through when it does, so everyone can head left.  New incoming lemmings from the teleport automatically heads left, so you're set.

To do this in the Tarzan solution, as soon as you caught the first 2 lemmings on the chain, in the following right-swing, send 1 lemming to the gridwork--you need him to laser the upper-left group as soon as possible, since once you release the bottom group, you definitely do not want them wind up heading towards the chain.  Then continue fanning with the following left-swing and the following right-swing.  Now at the following left-swing, you will release a lemming to the left to laser the bottom group.  Timing is critical:  screenshot A shows the exact frame I released this lemming, and screeshot B shows the position I assigned him laser.  If all goes well, you'll get the result shown in screenshot C, where no lemmings head right when the laser breaks through.

================

This brings Space's new total to 53.  And speaking of 53, Shadow 10's current result is not "10?", and the total right now doesn't even match the numbers listed.  The correction should be 8 for Shadow 10, and a total of 53 for Shadow.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2010, 10:36:44 AM »
Thanks to my new discovery of a glitch that lets walkers past the dragon harmlessly in Medieval 9, I now have a 3-skill solution for that level.

It's still important how you set it up though, because the dragon bypass glitch only works best when the lemmings are spaced the same as they come out of the entrance, so what you want is to have the runner hero alone handle everything that comes before.  Getting all that ready in time for the remaining lemmings can be slightly tricky even for a runner (though nothing new if you've seen my runners+archers solution for that level).  I've attached screenshots here for that.  Go to the post linked above for more details on the dragon glitch itself.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2010, 02:41:04 PM »
And now I have a 7-skill solution for Medieval 4.  Nope, no new glitches, just better usage of skills at the very beginning.

Quote from: hint
If you pour standing right next to a stack right in front of you, the stream of glue will actually be coming out over the other side of the stack.

Quote from: spoiler
1st lemming start stacking at the exact position shown in screenshot A, and 2nd lemming starts glue-pouring at the exact position shown in screenshot B (you'll want to position your mouse cursor like the screenshot too).  The glue will come out right of the stack, as desired (screenshots C, D), and also the glue-pouring will delay the lemming so he turns around instead of overtaking the stacker.  Finish the rest of the level normally (surfer, sand pourer, glue pourer, club basher, sand pourer).

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2010, 12:04:17 PM »
Edit 2:  Highland 3 is improved to 3.

Quote from: Spoiler
  Build 2x starting 2 blocks before the red floor begins (it has to be in a pretty precise spot).  If done properly, the lemmings will fall off the top of the bridge, bounce off two trampolines, and make their way up to the ledge on the right side of the level (the one with 2 trampolines on it).

From this ledge, build one more bridge starting about halfway between the edge of the left trampoine and the little blue triangle.  Once again, it has to be pixel-precise.  If this is done properly, the lemmings will fall off the bridge, bounce off three trampolines, and head directly to the exit.

Just realize I never really paid this level (Highland 3) a proper look-over.  I did now and was able to improve upon LemSteven's basic method, down to 2 skills.  Screenshots attached.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2010, 12:58:43 AM »
I've now revisited Highland 4 ("a mere stone's throw") and accomplished a major reduction via a crawling route, resulting in a 10-skills solution!  The attached screenshots explain all.

Expect a similar dramatic result from the "skills you can't live without" thread as well.

One minor note on the screenshots: it may look like the final step formed by the end of the fencer tunnel is 5 pixels high, but it's actually 4, just that the terrain pixel there at the bottom right corner is black and therefore not very visible against the dark gray background.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2010, 10:42:38 AM »
Randomly reviewing old levels and found a random minor improvement:  Polar 9 improved to 5 skills.  It's basically just my 6-skill solution with a slight change at the very start.  See hints/screenshots.

Quote from: hint/spoiler
It may not look like it, but you can barely brigde the first gap with just a single archer's arrow, fired from the left near the edge at a pixel-specific location and angle, steeply diagonally down.  See first few screenshots for the pixel-precise details.

Offline Lemmy556

  • Posts: 54
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2010, 09:58:33 PM »
As I know some of levels are totally chanced in SNES port and some just a bit. 8)

Beach 6: all 9 skills used
Outdoor 6: 8 skills
Egypt 4: Level was bit different but all can be done with on twister
Egypt 5: palm tree is missing so one club basher can be avoided.
Egypt 10: 1 mortal skill
Classic 2: one digger, one climber and four builders
Classic 5: Same solution except 3 builders will be used(all will be saved)
Circus 3: 7 skills I think
Circus 5: 40 skills, one for each lemming
Circus 6: 6 skills
Highland 5: Because there is no swing machine so you need on parachute skill to replace it
Highland 7: two lazer blasters and 3 platformers(and maybe on club basher)
Highland 10: 8 and all saved
Polar 2: No steel blocks so both flames and one fencer.
Space 8: 4 skills, because blocks under teleports are not steel blocks.
Cavelem 7: 5 skills
Cavelem 8: 11 or 12 skills
Cavelem 10: 7 skills
Shadow 4: 7 skills
Shadow 5: 6 skills because no swing machine
Shadow 10: 9 skills
Sports 1: 2 skills
Sports 5: 7 skills
Sports 6: 9 skills
Sports 10: I believe this is possible with 9 skills

Gameboy one coming soon...

Offline LemSteven

  • Posts: 559
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2010, 04:54:52 AM »
I just found another improvement:

Classic 10: 5 skills!  It's basically the same idea as my 6-skill solution, but it saves an unnecessary builder.

Quote from: Spoiler
The first lemming builds just as he hits the left wall and turns right.  After laying down three bricks, he blocks.  The crowd should be able to walk underneath him and get stuck against the steel, forcing the crawling trick.  Since you must save everyone, the last lemming bashes (or mines) to free the blocker, and both climb to the exit.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings 2: Minimum skills for gold
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2012, 12:52:05 PM »
Sports VI down to 4 skills.  See attached screenshots.  Solution loses 1 lemming but that's okay for gold for that level.  If someone finds a way to just use the roper alone to trigger the you-know-what, that would cut down 1 skill and also make the solution save all.

Okay, so it took more than 2 years :-\, but I've finally gotten Sports VI down to 2 skills now.  This solution loses 1 lemming which is still okay for gold.  Obviously using one more skill you can save the 1 lemming that doesn't make it to exit.