What levels cannot be beaten with their default release rates?

[Dullstar]

Another challenge thread, guys!  I will do my best to keep a good list up this time.

Some levels do not give enough time for you to not bother increasing the release rate.  What levels are they?  I believe the Just a Minute levels fall into this category, but please don't jump to conclusions without testing.

LEVELS THAT CANNOT BE BEATEN WITH DEFAULT RELEASE RATE

Heaven Can Wait (We Hope!!!)
Just a Minute (both)
We all fall down (Taxing, Mayhem)

[Dullstar]

I have tested up to Heaven Can Wait (We Hope!!!) and that is the only one I have found not to work...

[chaos_defrost]

Taxing 24 I id that when bored and I got smaked up0 by the time resctrictions

[namida]

Flow Control is the most obvious answer...





...or is it?
Not only did I manage to beat it at the default release rate, but I did so saving 71%!

[Clam]

What we need are some snappy sub-headings for these challenge threads.

This thread: "Don't touch that dial."

 

[ccexplore]

Taxing 24 I id that when bored and I got smaked up0 by the time resctrictions

Taxing 24 can be beaten (100% even, there's comfortably enough time) if you build a wall to block off the crowd from heading too far right.

Taxing 25 on Lemmix has the last required lemming in the middle of exiting when time's up.  This means on DOS Lemmings with the pause trick, it can be beaten.

I've confirmed Taxing 28 is possible (there's still 14 seconds left when the last lemming exits), and Taxing 30 (and hence Mayhem 11) is definitely not possible (only 45 lemmings exited).  I haven't tested any other levels in Taxing yet.

[Dullstar]

Well, so far the only one that has made the list is Heaven Can Wait (We Hope!!!)

Not all the challenge threads make big lists!  This one is mainly for what can't be beaten on the default release rates.  However, keep the default release rate information and replays flowing, because sometimes the level is beatable with a backroute!

Okay, so we COULD do the levels that CAN be beaten with the default release rates, but that would be a longer list, displaying the same information, just in a different.

[Minim]

All the levels with a release rate 99 is out of the question in your case, but I think a better topic would be "How many levels can't be beaten with a stuck 1 release rate" although it takes time editing levels, it gives a more brief idea on 1) Number of lemmings out and 2) How long it takes for the required number to come out. A lot of "Oh No more lemmings" levels have a 1 release rate. Why don't you have a go at those instead? The time limit in OhNo is stricter than the Original.

[Dullstar]

We can do that in a separate thread, provided you do not mind.

[Minim]

Can't be bothered . Your topic is very similar and it's going to take ages for my proposal to work.

[Proxima]

Well, so far the only one that has made the list is Heaven Can Wait (We Hope!!!)

That's not true, ccexplore added the Taxing and Mayhem "We all fall down" levels. I can add to that both Just a Minutes; even on the Mac, which has a very generous timer, only half the lemmings have entered the level when the time expires.

[ccexplore]

Well, so far the only one that has made the list is Heaven Can Wait (We Hope!!!)

Read my post again--We All Fall Down in Taxing and Mayhem also makes the list.

One thing you can do to eliminate levels for which at the default RR, you can't even get the last lemming entering the level on time, is by the following rough calculation:

((99 - RR) / 2 + 4) * (number of lemmings - 1) / 17 = number of seconds elapsed when last lemming enters

(RR needs to be odd in the formula above.  So if RR is 50, use 51.)

This is not a totally accurate calculation, and obviously it takes time between last lemming entering the level and exiting it.  However, if the number of seconds it takes is much more than the level gives you, then you know it's impossible.

(Some level doesn't require you to save 100%, so "number of lemmings" in that case would be minimum number of lemmings you need to save.)

Using this formula for example, you'll find that at the default RR, it'll take more than 2 minutes before the last lemming can enter in "Just a Minute" and "Just a Minute (Part 2)".

[Proxima]

Just tested Taxing 7, 8, 16, 19 and 22 on the Mac. All finish with over 30 seconds left, so I believe they will be possible on other versions.

Taxing 11 is certainly possible -- indeed, my preferred solution to the level is to leave the RR unchanged, so that the last lemming out can free the crowd (much easier than hoping you get one facing the right way for a builder).

All other Taxing levels are obviously possible, either because of high RR, high time limit or small number of lemmings or a combination.

The only Mayhem level not mentioned yet that needs testing is Level 15, The Fast Food Kitchen. This is possible on the Mac with 10 seconds to spare. If I've got ccexplore's above formula right, on the version it refers to the last lemming would have a mere 14 seconds to get to the exit, which I doubt is enough.

[ccexplore]

If I've got ccexplore's above formula right, on the version it refers to the last lemming would have a mere 14 seconds to get to the exit, which I doubt is enough.

Interesting, I just noticed that the DOS version of this level not only gives you 3 minutes, but the required % is only 75, whereas according to the Lemmings Encyclopedia, the Amiga has 2 minutes and 96% (lose 4 out of 100).  I didn't realize the difference is that dramatic, really have to wonder now if they made a mistake in the DOS version with the requirements.  How much are you required to save on the Mac?

[Proxima]

95% (lose 4 of 80). Very interesting. So this level is definitely possible (for this challenge) on the DOS version but impossible on the Amiga.

[Minim]

Another one: Yo-yo Lem Lem from Holiday Lemmings. You need 80, and only 76 lemmings come out after the time is up.

[Proxima]

Crazy 5, 8, 10 and 12 are impossible as the last lemming cannot even enter. It's true that 8, 10 and 12 don't require 100%, but they all require over 90%, and given that the last required lemming must journey to the exit, I'd say there's no doubt they cannot be done.

Crazy 15, 17, 18 and 19 all have 50 lemmings, 3 minutes and a low RR. The last lemming can enter but certainly won't reach the exit on 17. The others should be tested.

The remaining Crazy levels are certainly possible, as are all of Tame.

[Proxima]

Heh, I know this is a really old topic, but I thought, why not finish it off?

Crazy 18 is impossible, hardly a surprise in view of the long path to the exit. Crazy 15 is possible, and 19 is possible by the ceiling route.

On the Mac, Wild 5 max% is just possible -- the last lemming out makes it to the exit just as time runs out. This means that on the PC version, 80-lemming levels with RR 1 and 4 minutes or less will be impossible. So, Wild 2–6, 8, 10, 13, 14, 17–19 are ruled out. Wild 11, 12, 15 look borderline; I'll test these...

...success on all three, but 12 and 15 are so tight (~10sec left) on Mac that they are probably not possible on PC. I don't actually know how big the speed difference is, so this is just a guess

The remaining Wild levels are all possible.

Wicked needs no testing; every level is obvious one way or the other. The impossible ones are 1, 7, 13, 14, 19, 20.

Havoc 1, 11–14 and 17 are impossible. 4 is a special case due to the extremely long time taken climbing all the pillars, but this is possible on Mac. The only other one that needs testing is 19... success. But this one is also very close, about 15sec left.

In total, that's at least 30 impossible levels in ONML, compared to only five in Lemmings.

[Crane]

Hey guys - thought I'd get back into Lemmings and level design!  (I'm the guy that did Garjen years ago)

For a specific version of Lemmings, the level "I am A.T." from the Mega Drive version ("SUNSOFT Special 2" on the SNES) I believe is impossible to complete without upping the release rate (100 lemmings, 01 Release Rate, 2-minute timer).  In fact, you need to up the rate to about 75 just to perform the conventional solution.

Some levels are indeed passable on some platforms, while impossible on others.  On the Acorn Archimedes version of Lemmings, a release rate of 1 causes lemmings to be spaced about twice as far apart as they are in other versions, which I believe makes We All Fall Down (Tricky) impossible - on the DOS version you have about 30 seconds left.

[Proxima]

Now that I finally have Lemmix, it's time to wrap this up with a list of confirmed results rather than guessing based on the Mac version

All the Taxing levels I mentioned as needing testing turn out to be possible, though 8 (which requires 100%) comes down to the last second.

Wild 2 and 10, which I ruled out, are actually possible since both only require 75%. Wild 19 (81%) is only just possible -- you need to free the blocker (or do without one) or you won't make it.

I was right about Wild 11, but it's closer than I thought -- it requires 49/50, which you can get, but the last lemming remains out in the cold! Wild 12 is possible, and 15 is another one that's very close -- you need a lose-4 solution or better.

Havoc 4 is possible with a second to spare, by taking the floor route and building over the tunnel to keep the crowd together. (This is in contrast to the Mac version, where the normal solution to the level finishes in time.)

Havoc 19 fails on DOS; the last lemming (100% required) enters in the last second and cannot possibly reach the exit.

So, here's a complete list for the DOS version. This is a list of impossible levels, not a list of possible levels as in most of the other challenges An asterisk indicates that a level is possible on the Mac. Brackets around Mayhem 15 indicate that it's possible on both DOS and Mac, but not Amiga.

Fun - none
Tricky - none
Taxing - 3, 30
Mayhem - 11, (15), 16, 27

Tame - none
Crazy - 5, 8, 10, 12, 17, 18
Wild - 3, 4, 5*, 6, 8, 13, 14, 17, 18
Wicked - 1, 7, 13, 14, 19, 20
Havoc - 1, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 19*