Author Topic: Lemmings 2 for Master System (Read 11541 times)

Mr. K · « **on:** August 10, 2009, 05:20:33 AM »

While looking into the Master System I found a list of unreleased games here. Lemmings 2 is mentioned, which is something I've never heard of before.

A scan of a review is also supplied:

The topic linked above states that it was completely finished but never released, so I was wondering if anyone else had information on this, like if the completed game was ever leaked. I'm curious how well it could have translated to 8 bits-- the screenshots look pretty close to the original, which would be pretty impressive for the SMS.
Is there any other info out there?

Minim · « **Reply #1 on:** August 10, 2009, 01:24:31 PM »

Maybe not, probably because lemmings is getting old now.

Dullstar · « **Reply #2 on:** August 10, 2009, 06:45:36 PM »

It may be getting old, but it is still well loved.

GigaLem · « **Reply #3 on:** August 13, 2009, 04:07:35 AM »

Show more about it with
pictures (i <3 picuters)

Mr. K · « **Reply #4 on:** August 13, 2009, 05:43:50 AM »

I think that magazine scan might have the only pictures in circulation. Haven't seen any others.

Dullstar · « **Reply #5 on:** August 15, 2009, 01:21:05 AM »

I wonder... if it was completely finished, might a ROM be floating around somewhere?

Pooty · « **Reply #6 on:** August 15, 2009, 08:27:17 PM »

Unfortunately, nobody appears to have the ROM. I've been looking out for it for a good few years now, and i've had no luck.

I'm not expecting it to be as good as the first game was, but I would have bought it if it was available.

The Doctor · « **Reply #7 on:** August 15, 2009, 11:45:45 PM »

The graphics on that package look distinctly un-SMS like anyway. Too many colours. Too high res. Still, interesting thought.

Dullstar · « **Reply #8 on:** August 16, 2009, 01:19:02 AM »

I wonder why they complete games and don't release them? Are they not presentable or something?

The Doctor · « **Reply #9 on:** August 16, 2009, 01:19:50 AM »

Probably wasn't completed.

Dullstar · « **Reply #10 on:** August 16, 2009, 01:25:30 AM »

It says it was completely finished.

The Doctor · « **Reply #11 on:** August 16, 2009, 01:27:07 AM »

Where.

Pooty · « **Reply #12 on:** August 16, 2009, 01:29:19 AM »

Actually, it doesn't look too high-res. I'm looking at the Highland screenshot on the left. The green blocks at the bottom are ~16x16 pixels, which is exactly the size I was expecting. I can therefore assume that the screenshot is to scale, and when I did a quick botch job of superimposing it onto a Lemmings 1 screenshot, it fits quite nicely (see attachment).

As for the colours, I can't tell. The image is badly smudged by JPEG compression. However, like in the first game, I think there was a lot of dithering to give the illusion of more colours than there actually were.

The Doctor · « **Reply #13 on:** August 16, 2009, 01:30:00 AM »

Hmm, guess so. Still waiting for the line where it says it's complete.

Dullstar · « **Reply #14 on:** August 16, 2009, 01:32:19 AM »

Quote from: Mr. K on 2009-08-09 23:20:33

While looking into the Master System I found a list of unreleased games here. Lemmings 2 is mentioned, which is something I've never heard of before.

A scan of a review is also supplied:

The topic linked above states that it was completely finished but never released, so I was wondering if anyone else had information on this, like if the completed game was ever leaked. I'm curious how well it could have translated to 8 bits-- the screenshots look pretty close to the original, which would be pretty impressive for the SMS.
Is there any other info out there?

The links can be hard to spot...

Pooty · « **Reply #15 on:** August 16, 2009, 01:33:44 AM »

It was mentioned on the link at the first post, but the website seems to be down at the moment. I did find another link that says the exact same thing.

http://www.smstributes.co.uk/view_page.asp?articleid=109

The Doctor · « **Reply #16 on:** August 16, 2009, 01:35:44 AM »

Trouble is, people can say what they like and it won't make it true. Need more evidence. Do they provide references?

They say Mark Tailor confirmed it. Can anyone get that confirmation?

Dullstar · « **Reply #17 on:** August 16, 2009, 01:37:06 AM »

Hmm... this could be quite interesting to research.

Pooty · « **Reply #18 on:** August 16, 2009, 01:51:10 AM »

I was bothered by that also. Unfortunately, this is all the information I can find about this game. It didn't say how or when Mark Tailor confirmed it. Heck, I can't even find information about the chap himself, apart from another game called "Hook" was released for the Game Gear, but got cancelled for the Master System. He provided a ROM for that game, but not Lemmings 2.

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The Doctor · « **Reply #19 on:** August 16, 2009, 01:52:17 AM »

Whip out the Net Forensics chaps, we have old data to forage!

Pooty · « **Reply #20 on:** August 16, 2009, 02:29:11 AM »

I'm still missing the source of the quote, but apparently, this is what Matt Taylor (not Mark Tailor) said:

Quote

After doing Andre Agassi on the GameBoy, I went on to write Lemmings 2 on the Game Gear and Master System. The code was written using a single codebase for both MS/GG versions as well as the Game Boy version, and was developed in around 8 months. Although I had access to the original source code, it was x86 real-mode code and not much use. So, as with Hook, I spent many hours studying and cataloging how the PC version worked, how many pixels per frame of animation, how the skills worked, etc, and then coded it from scratch in Z80. The levels were designed in such a way that no more than 128 characters could be modified on any level to ensure that the game did not run out of spare background characters when modified by exploding Lemmings or built bridges and the like. This was achieved by designing the levels using non-modifyable blocks (“steel” blocks, water) and limiting how many modifying skills were used on each level. As there were only 8 lemmings per level (to stay within sprites-on-a-line limits) this was pretty easy to achieve. In fact, out of the original levels only about 20% had to be redesigned.

In the code I wrote a unified single bitplane collision detection system and character modification system so that arbritary areas of the level could be modified on any pixel boundary. All collision detection for the lemmings was done a single pixel basis and several collision tests had to be done per frame for some of the more complex lemming skills such as the Magnobooter. Out of all the lemmings skills the Magnobooter is my favourite and was by far the most fun to code and play with.

The game was completed in 1994, but Psygnosis decided that it was not commercially viable to release it on the Sega 8-bit platforms. A lot of publishers were pulling out of Sega 8-bit cartridge production in Europe due to the high cost of production runs. This was very disappointing, especially as the Game Gear version is the best version out of the 8-bit console versions of Lemmings 2, even including sampled sound playback. The only 8-bit console version to be released was the Game Boy version which received 95% in GB Action magazine. This score was only surpassed in the same issue by Monster Max which received 96%. Ironically Monster Max was written by Jon Ritman (who wrote Match Day and Head Over Heels on the Sinclair Spectrum) who I would later end up working for at his start-up company Cranberry Source after I left Spidersoft.

The Game Gear and Master System versions of Lemmings 2 were reviewed in Sega Power magazine and I will scan in these reviews for you if you wish to include them on your site. Lemmings 2 is an 8-bit title I am particularly proud to have written as I think a good job was done of faithfully reproducing the original without compromising on features or levels and it really showed off what the Sega 8-bit machines were capable of. It is just a shame they never got released due to Sega’s cartridge production pricing.

Because the website I got that from, SMSPower, is down at the moment, i'll link a Yahoo search, which includes a cached page.

It sounds like the game is similar to the Game Boy version.

Dullstar · « **Reply #21 on:** August 16, 2009, 02:58:44 AM »

This is getting interesting...

The Doctor · « **Reply #22 on:** August 16, 2009, 02:59:49 AM »

Wonder if any of us can contact him (like we used to have contact with Mike, etc).

Here's hoping he had excessive backup plans for his media!

Mr. K · « **Reply #23 on:** August 16, 2009, 04:02:36 AM »

Yeah, we need to try and track him down. Seeing as he had the Hook ROM, he might have this too but nobody asked for it.

Wonder if he still has the original source code to what is implied to be the PC version of Lemmings 1. (Although he only says he had access to it, so maybe not)

Pooty · « **Reply #24 on:** August 16, 2009, 04:33:50 AM »

I found this. He appears to have an account at a website called "LinkedIn", which shows his career (and marries up to his statement above, as he worked at Spidersoft, and shortly afterwards at Cranberry Source). Apparently, he's a Business Analyst at Warner Music Group since the beginning of this year.

http://www.linkedin.com/in/mattuk

Dullstar · « **Reply #25 on:** August 16, 2009, 05:14:13 AM »

Hmmm... quite interesting.

Maxim · « **Reply #26 on:** April 14, 2014, 04:03:24 PM »

Necro-bump: Matt Taylor released ROM images!

http://www.smspower.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8528

http://www.smspower.org/Games/Lemmings2-SMS
http://www.smspower.org/Games/Lemmings2-GG

Prob Lem · « **Reply #27 on:** April 15, 2014, 02:57:40 AM »

Fantastic news! Always great to see important unreleased titles like this safely preserved.

First Putty Squad for the Amiga, now this - great stuff all round.

Thanks for the links!

Mr. K · « **Reply #28 on:** April 15, 2014, 01:26:05 PM »

Wow! Five years after I posted this originally and the ROM surfaces! AWESOME!! Going to try this on my flash cart tonight.

UPDATE: First impressions: I think this is a really impressive port given the hardware. While it runs a bit slow and there's only 8 lemmings maximum per level, the graphics really didn't take much of a hit compared to what I would have expected. Everything's still really colorful. The gameplay doesn't even feel compromised... pretty much everything works identically to the original, which also surprises me. There is definitely some technical wizardry going on under the hood... I would not have thought such a close port was possible on the SMS without cutting a huge amount of content. I know the NES couldn't handle a port half as good as this... shame it never got a proper release!

Prob Lem · « **Reply #29 on:** April 16, 2014, 05:41:53 AM »

Quote from: Mr. K on 2014-04-15 07:26:05

There is definitely some technical wizardry going on under the hood... I would not have thought such a close port was possible on the SMS without cutting a huge amount of content.

The Master System/Game Gear port of the first game has plenty of wizardry going on, too, but it was converted by a different software-house (Probe Software). It's really nice to see that the Master System/Game Gear port of the second has equal pedigree.

I tried both versions out, but I prefer the look of the Master System one. This isn't just because of the higher resolution, but also because there are some small differences in colour-depth here and there, and I actually prefer the look of the dithering employed in the Master System version.

I agree, incidentally - it really is a shame that these two didn't make it to retail. At least, for this pair of ports, the reason why is known, and that's better than is the case for some cancelled games.

MattTaylor · « **Reply #30 on:** April 18, 2014, 01:46:06 AM »

Thank you, and I'm glad you've enjoyed playing it.

There is indeed a fair amount of technical wizardry going on (and even more on the Game Boy version), but three compromises had to be made. One was to restrict the number of map blocks that could be modified down to no more than 128. That meant some map objects and detail had to be left out. The other compromise was on the "pouring skills", namely the Glue Pourer, Sand Pourer, and Filler, as these required pixel-based animation and potentially a lot of map modification. These were replaced with "Magic Bridge" and "Pyramider" respectively in order to maintain the gameplay flow on each map. The final compromise was that some of the PC levels simply couldn't be recreated due to size and/or modifiable character limitations, so for those a few of us went ahead and created our own levels. The amount of processing that has to be performed each frame also had an impact on framerate (although it's a bit better on the Game Boy version) but other than that it's the full game, recreated in 4 MHz glory.

Quote from: Mr. K on 2014-04-15 07:26:05

UPDATE: First impressions: I think this is a really impressive port given the hardware. While it runs a bit slow and there's only 8 lemmings maximum per level, the graphics really didn't take much of a hit compared to what I would have expected. Everything's still really colorful. The gameplay doesn't even feel compromised... pretty much everything works identically to the original, which also surprises me. There is definitely some technical wizardry going on under the hood... I would not have thought such a close port was possible on the SMS without cutting a huge amount of content. I know the NES couldn't handle a port half as good as this... shame it never got a proper release!

Prob Lem · « **Reply #31 on:** April 18, 2014, 08:24:40 AM »

Thanks very much for getting these out there, Matt (welcome, by the way!

).

Is it ok if I ask something I've been wondering?

I saw a mention in one of Maxim's SMS Power links that you had access to x86 source code. Did you have any interaction at all with the guys who ported the first Lemmings game to the Master System, as well, or was some reinvention of the wheel necessary for your work?

Please pardon my curiousity - I'm just very impressed by how brilliant this version of Lemmings 2 is.

MattTaylor · « **Reply #32 on:** April 18, 2014, 02:37:01 PM »

You're welcome to ask anything at all. :-)

Before development began I had access to the x86 source code and source graphics. Steve Marsden (Spidersoft MD) and I also attended a meeting at DMA Design's offices to get a better understanding of the mechanics of the game. I had no contact with Probe Software (who wrote Lemmings 1 on SMS/GG) or access to their code. They did a great job with Lemmings 1, although having later read some of the feedback from players it sounds like there were issues with how many characters could be modified. I actually went to work for Probe later in my career in games, working on the game framework code and N64 code for Re-Volt.

For Lemmings 2, it was entirely reinvention of the wheel. It was quicker and simpler to write the game from scratch than try to convert the x86 code down to Z80. So studying every aspect of the PC version was necessary. The graphics helped quite a bit in that regard, e.g. seeing how many frames of animation a skill used and how many pixels they traveled.

Quote from: Prob Lem on 2014-04-18 02:24:40

Thanks very much for getting these out there, Matt (welcome, by the way! ).

Is it ok if I ask something I've been wondering?

I saw a mention in one of Maxim's SMS Power links that you had access to x86 source code. Did you have any interaction at all with the guys who ported the first Lemmings game to the Master System, as well, or was some reinvention of the wheel necessary for your work?

Please pardon my curiousity - I'm just very impressed by how brilliant this version of Lemmings 2 is.

ccexplore · « **Reply #33 on:** April 18, 2014, 07:57:16 PM »

Hmm, I'd love to have access to either the source code of this port or of the x86 PC version, but I'm guessing sadly that will be impossible due to legal issues and/or lost forever to time?

MattTaylor · « **Reply #34 on:** April 18, 2014, 09:07:17 PM »

I don't have the x86 code anymore and, even if I did, it wouldn't be mine to give out. I have the Z80 SMS/GG/GB source code, but sections of that code was written by others as well (e.g. intro, compression routines) so I wouldn't comfortable giving that out. What would you plan to do with the source code, out of interest?

Quote from: ccexplore on 2014-04-18 13:57:16

Hmm, I'd love to have access to either the source code of this port or of the x86 PC version, but I'm guessing sadly that will be impossible due to legal issues and/or lost forever to time?

ccexplore · « **Reply #35 on:** April 18, 2014, 09:28:55 PM »

Primarily to understand the details of how the skills and other aspects of the game mechanics work, so that it is possible for others to create clones of the game that behaves close to 100% faithfully to the original. Similar to what you did when you studied the PC version in order to create your port. The wind-, projectile- and movement- type skills/behaviors can be particularly challenging in that regard, while most other skills/behaviors can probably be figured out 99%-100% purely from framestepping through the game without too much work (though of course still far easier to have source access).

In that regard I don't think I'd need to see anything related to intro, compression/storage or even rendering.

Leo · « **Reply #36 on:** April 18, 2014, 10:49:01 PM »

I know it's stupid to complain about that, but I really wish a mouse control option. And let me thank you very, very much Matt, for releasing these two games. I was 99.999% sure that both games are lost in time forever.
So, when we already have you here, feel free to tell us the full story about making these games (and hiding them from rest of the world for 20 years), with all necessary (and even some unnecessary) details. Full report, please.

MattTaylor · « **Reply #37 on:** April 19, 2014, 12:11:53 AM »

Well, everything worth telling and reading is here, in the thread that Maxim posted a link to earlier: http://www.smspower.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8528

Leo · « **Reply #38 on:** April 19, 2014, 12:49:10 AM »

Yes... well, I read this years ago... It's to brief. I can't believe you don't want to tell as something more. How you didn't know these two games are not available anywhere? And what about 'Lemmings 2' in general? What you think about the game? Too hard? Too easy? Why the first Lemmings game has so much more ports than the second one? We don't have something so exciting here often. Say something... anything.

Pooty · « **Reply #39 on:** May 26, 2014, 09:07:48 PM »

Ooooh, I've only just noticed this. I've been wanting to play this ever since I heard it existed. Thank you so much for releasing them, Matt. Never thought I'd see the day.

Author Topic: Lemmings 2 for Master System (Read 11541 times)

MattTaylor

MattTaylor

MattTaylor

MattTaylor