Least amount of time needed to beat levels

[Clam]

Wait, does that mean the most you can gain is less than 2 seconds? I could have sworn it was more than that

[ccexplore]

Wait, does that mean the most you can gain is less than 2 seconds? I could have sworn it was more than that

Well, from the game's code, it looks like the entrance starts to open at the 36th frame (counting from 1), so I think the gain is still exactly 34 frames =  2 game seconds compared with no pause trick.  However, this does mean my current method in Lemmix of resetting the clock is giving you 2 more frames than you could actually have in the real game, and that it's making the game clock go down 2 frames later than they should, I think.  To be 100% sure I also need to go thru Lemmix's code also to see whether it's opening the entrances at the exact same time it would in the real game w/o the pause trick.

[ccexplore]

Okay, I've learned what I needed from looking at the game's code and Lemmix's code, and unfortunately it's not going to make my job any easier.  In fact, it leads to some interesting findings that may affect how you want to measure time for this challenge thread.  For example, do you know that in high-performance PC mode (where the game fades in and fades out slowly), if you press ESC to abort, during that slow fade-out, the game continues to update the lemmings, but does not update the timer?

Anyway, I'll mention all the gory details in the "LemmixPlayer ccexplore updates" thread.  No actual updates though--some care is needed to make all the necessary changes w/o invalidating all existing replays, and certainly some thorough testing will be called for.

[Clam]

So if I were to read the time off the game clock with the pause trick active, how far off would I be? If I know this, I can post some actual results without the need for a "fixed" version.

I don't know whether I should switch over to "High-performance PC" mode or just stick with the default "PC compatible" style. Glitches are one thing, but switching game modes to get faster times seems a bit... wrong. I don't know how to explain it.


In other news, I've improved my time for Fun 1 to 0-14, and Fun 6 to 0-17. For some bizarre reason, I was blocking my lemmings at the start before instead of letting them walk. Again, I'll post replays once the times are confirmed. (And I'm keeping notes too.)

[ccexplore]

So if I were to read the time off the game clock with the pause trick active, how far off would I be? If I know this, I can post some actual results without the need for a "fixed" version.

I still need to find out whether the clock display in the real game reflects the internal clock variables on the frame or on the previous frame.  If we take the current Lemmix model, where the time you see in a frame is exactly the values in the internal clock variables, and ignore the thing about ESC and/or high-perf, then right now, I think Lemmix is 3 frames too early (2 from not being able to pause on first 2 frames in real game, and 1 from the entrance opening one frame early in Lemmix).  I think.

For something as simple as Fun 1 and Fun 6, if you really want some results now that are guaranteed replicable in the real game, you can use my "vgalslow.exe" slowed-down version of DOS Lemmings.  It'll be a bit of a pain to use due to the slowness, but should be tolerable for short Fun levels.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if your solution is optimal in terms of number of frames, then it is an optimal solution regardless of how the game clock is treated, just that your reported result in terms of the game clock might be inaccurate.

[Ramon]

I'd do some for the SNES version of the original Lemmings. (With ZSNES.)

But which timer counts? When the lemming counter is 0, or when the screen has faded out and just about to display the results?

Note: Pause trick (pause before trapdoor opens) for more time is NOT possible on the SNES port.

I'll edit this post when I get more.

Fun 01: 0'35" 100%
Fun 02: 0'25" 100%
Fun 03: 0'42" 97%
Fun 04: 0'44" 100%
Fun 05: 0'51" 100%
Fun 06: 0'37" 96%
Fun 07: 1'06" 100%
Fun 08: 0'34" 99%
Fun 09: 0'40" 100%
Fun 10: 0'19" 95%
Fun 11: 1'04" 100%
Fun 12: 0'46" 100%
Fun 13: 0'54" 100%
Fun 14: 2'00" 100%
Fun 15: 2'50" 100%
Fun 16: 1'54" 100%
Fun 17: 0'56" 100%
Fun 18: 1'00" 92%
Fun 19: 2'00" 100%
Fun 20: 1'03" 100%
Fun 21:
Fun 22:
Fun 23:
Fun 24:
Fun 25:
Fun 26:
Fun 27:
Fun 28:
Fun 29:
Fun 30:

[Clam]

But which timer counts? When the lemming counter is 0, or when the screen has faded out and just about to display the results?

Does SNES have an option to quit to the post-level screen (like pressing Esc in DOS)? If so, then you can just stop the timer once you reach the required percentage.

[Ramon]

Nope, sadly it doesn't. I have to nuke in time.  Oh and I'm trying to save as many lemmings as possible in shortest time btw.

[Pooty]

Actually, it does. If you hold Select and press Start, the game will fade to the post-level screen. However, when you do that, the clock will read 0:00.

[Clam]

Wait, I should have known that - I watched a SNES Lemmings speedrun the other day. I posted the link in this thread, if you're interested.

Before you get discouraged by this:
1) It's a tool-assisted run, and not a genuine speedrun,
2) It aims for quick completion in terms of real time, and not game time, and
3) It starts at Mayhem. Fun to Taxing are completely untouched.

[Ramon]

Actually, it does. If you hold Select and press Start, the game will fade to the post-level screen. However, when you do that, the clock will read 0:00.

I can't believe I never found that out yet. :p

Wait, I should have known that - I watched a SNES Lemmings speedrun the other day. I posted the link in this thread, if you're interested.

Before you get discouraged by this:
1) It's a tool-assisted run, and not a genuine speedrun,
2) It aims for quick completion in terms of real time, and not game time, and
3) It starts at Mayhem. Fun to Taxing are completely untouched.

I myself also use savestates and rewind states to complete the levels in the fastest time :p but I need to add I'm just an average Lemmings player, not an indepth one...

[Clam]

Oh... well, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm doing the same for the DOS version. Heck, I'm taking it even further by using a specialised tool rather than an emulator

[Clam]

I've been quiet over the past couple of days, but that's really just because the forum's going through a bit of a lull. I'm still busy working on this challenge, and I'm really starting to get a feel for it now. It's hugely more involved than any other challenge so far, as you would expect. So progress is gonna be slow of course, since I insist on doing this "properly", and going for the absolute minimum possible (in seconds, not frames - that would just be nuts ).

As I said earlier, I have replays and notes for all the levels I've done so far (about 30 - though this includes trivial ones like Fun 2), and once Lemmix is fixed I'll check all my times and post this stuff.

[ccexplore]

and going for the absolute minimum possible (in seconds, not frames - that would just be nuts ).

I'd think in most cases, the difference in number of retries for seconds vs. frames would merely be (nuts - 17) instead of plain nuts.

[Dullstar]

and going for the absolute minimum possible (in seconds, not frames - that would just be nuts ).

I'd think in most cases, the difference in number of retries for seconds vs. frames would merely be (nuts - 17) instead of plain nuts.

Is this some kind of inside joke?  Anyways, I'm gonna copy Ramon's results into our list.