What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?

[Clam]

Replay please for Hail 5?

Sure.

Here's a solution with 6 floaters and 9 builders. So you can forget about the other skills (in the "skills you can't live without" thread - which I thought this was when I posted )

[Fernito]

On the other hand, the Amiga and SNES versions' RR-change speeds aren't fast enough for a 2-digger solution.  Amiga is actually pretty close, I think the 2nd digger ends up coming out 1 or 2 frames too late.  (SNES is not close at all.)

So, you're saying that the 2 digger solution is almost possible in Amiga?

[Minim]

Blitz 15: 14

How did you manage to do that? I couldn't get lower than 25. Is there a replay so that I understand how you did it?

Edit: Improved to 20, but I'm still curious. There must be a sliding glitch.

[ccexplore]

No glitches at all.  I think you just used too many floaters.  See attached.

[Clam]

Just found an attempt at this same challenge on Youtube:

Lemmings Laziness Challenge

[Proxima]

Not a bad attempt, either. The levels for which he's failed to equal the records set in this thread are: Fun 20, 22, 27; Tricky 8, 11, 13, 14, 20, 24, 25, 26, 27.

I'm not going to post to let him know about this since I don't know how to beat those levels with so few skills either, but if anyone else wants to, just thought I'd make things easier for you by letting you know which ones to watch

[Eric119]

Hello all,

I am the creator of the "Lemmings Laziness Challenge" videos on YouTube. You might like to know that I have videos up for Taxing and Mayhem now.

Proxima has already compared my attempt for Fun and Tricky to my attempt. Comparing the rest of the levels, I find that I did not match the record for the following levels:

Taxing 4, 7, 22, 23, 26, 28
Mayhem 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17, 21, 22, 25, 26, 28, 29, 30
(That list is a lot longer than I was hoping for.)

On the other hand, it appears that I have set a couple of new records:

Taxing 2: 5
Mayhem 10: 10

I hope to make videos matching the records for all the ones I've missed. I have an idea of what to do for Fun 20, but a lot of the other ones have me baffled. I am going to at least try them on my own.

I'm also planning on making "no glitch" videos for levels whose records require digging through steel, etc.

[ccexplore]

Taxing 2: 5
Mayhem 10: 10

  Good job! Yeah, with so many levels (here on the forums we also did the same with some of the sequels like ONML, Holiday Lemmings, etc.) we went through, there are bound to be a few that we overlooked something on.

ClamSpammer's the one maintaining the results table on this thread.  He still lurks around, hopefully he'll come around one day to updating the table with your new results.

I hope to make videos matching the records for all the ones I've missed. I have an idea of what to do for Fun 20, but a lot of the other ones have me baffled. I am going to at least try them on my own.

Good luck!  A few of the results you missed do require glitches or very detailed understanding of the game mechanics though, be forewarned.   (That said, you could also take a quick read on this thread).  Some of the results on this thread also has Lemmix replays attached, which (if you so choose) you can view using for example the LemmixPlayer.exe program downloadable from this topic.

Note also that the Mayhem 28 result may also be somewhat controversial, because the glitch it uses unfortunately can be affected by things outside of the game program's direct control.  Meaning that you could get different results during execution depending on whether you run the game in DOSBox vs Windows DOS emulation vs real DOS, and even what other programs have been run before you run the game.  There is a way to help eliminate these outside factors from unfavorably affecting the glitch being used, but this workaround involves running a program beforehand to get the memory to be in a certain way before starting the game itself.

[Clam]

Hey Eric, welcome to the forums! 

I've updated the table with your results. Great work! 

[Eric119]

I took a brief look at the glitches thread. Eventually, I'll have to study them in more detail.

I've figured out how to match the records for Fun 20, 22, and 27. Since the solutions for 20 and 27 use glitches, the previous videos for these levels have become "no glitch" videos. I also uploaded no glitch runs for Fun 11 and 17.

Video links:

Fun 11, glitchless
Fun 17, glitchless
Fun 20
Fun 22
Fun 27

My glitchless records for Fun are

Fun 11: 5
Fun 17: 4
Fun 20: 9
Fun 27: 5

with the rest the same as non-glitchless. I would be especially interested if anyone can improve 17. If you use only the 24 lemmings from the two leftmost entrances, then, since you will lose at least 4 to the crushers, you are required to use digging to free the blocker. But when I try this the lemmings become too separated. (This doesn't happen if you remove the blocker with a bomber.) I tried to remedy this by placing the blocker closer to the wall, but then the lemmings get stuck in the wall, violating the "glitchless" requirement.

So this wraps up the Fun levels for me, unless someone breaks a record.

By the way, I should mention that I've "met" ccexplore before, on the Chip's Challenge newsgroup. My full name is Eric Schmidt.

[ccexplore]

By the way, I should mention that I've "met" ccexplore before, on the Chip's Challenge newsgroup. My full name is Eric Schmidt.

Oh hey cool!  Welcome!  (For what a "welcome" is worth anyway, given how you came around to this forum just just when it's hit a period of deadness. )

How's the CC community?  Obviously I haven't done anything with the game for years, but I still have some fun memories of it.  I have to admit though, my brain seems to be less intuitive when it came to that type of puzzle compared with the Lemmings type.

---------------

We never did a glitchless version of the min-skills challenge, it would be interesting to take a look at the glitch solutions again and see what it takes for a min-skill glitchless solution.  Of course, one issue to consider is the debate of what exactly is a glitch and what isn't, since not all are as clear-cut as something like steel destruction for example.

As an example, here's a 4-skill solution to Fun 11 that does not involve destruction of steel, or bashing any portions of the one-way-wall the wrong way (highlight to read):

Climb up, then dig down near the right edge of the one-way-wall, but keep the rightmost vertical column of pixels of the wall.  When done, wait for lemming to be right against the column, just before he would climb up it.  At that moment, assign him builder to turn him around.  As soon as he turned around after laying down a single build brick, immediately assign him basher without delay.

Here's the trick:  the basher not only takes out terrain that's strictly in front of him, he also takes out a small bit of terrain that's, roughly speaking, "behind" him (this description is even more accurate in the Amiga and SNES versions, but is close enough in PC version), as you can see in the attached screenshot.  He's also close enough to the wall pixels in front of him that he will continue bashing to the left, releasing the crowd.

So is that just a clever trick, or a glitch?  To add to the debate, if you observe the animation of the basher closely, there are in fact a few frames where the bashing hand is located behind his back (the screenshot captures at one such frame), so it would not be unreasonable to argue that it's logical for some pixels at the back be removed as well.  Indeed, the Amiga/SNES versions reflect that aspect much more closely than the PC version in terms of the exact pixels removed from the lemming's "backhand".  On the other hand, it's well-known that the game doesn't border checking for steel for the pixels removed at the basher's back, so does that mean it is not really intended?  Or, given that the game doesn't do a very good job in general of ensuring that steel pixels are indestructible, is that merely another example of just a steel destruction glitch, but that in general there's nothing wrong with the basher being able to remove some pixels at his back?  (Of course in this case, the steel argument doesn't apply, since the pixel being removed the "backhanded" way is a one-way-wall in the "correct" direction, so it's just purely a debate of whether backhanded pixel removal is intended or not.)

...Anyway, with that in mind, if I have time (not easy these days) I'll try to at least go over some of the Fun results with glitch solutions and see what happens as I start eliminating particular glitches from use.

[ccexplore]

I would be especially interested if anyone can improve 17.

I took a quick look just now.  Unless there's a totally different method that we miss, I can say with certainty that your proposed method will not work if you disallow lemmings getting stuck in the wall by the blocker.  So 4 is most probably the minimum for glitch-free.

This is a consequence of the details of blocker and digger mechanics in PC Lemmings.  In the case where you do not allow the blocker to be so close to the wall that lemmings get stuck inside the wall, it is guaranteed that in order for someone to be close enough to dig to free the blocker, he has to have just turned around the blocker's right hand, facing right.  This maximizes the distance between the freed blocker (who will necessarily be the first lemming to approach the first trap) and the digger (who now not only has to dig down to the steel to stop, but also walk the wrong way briefly before turning left).  A simple testing shows that the resulting distance between the two is too long--the digger is too far behind to make it past the first trap before it is reactivated.

Even if you allow the blocker to be so close to the wall that lemmings get stuck in it, in effect you will only close up the distance between the freed blocker and the digger by 3-4 pixels, basically if you have the last lemming dig as soon as he landed next to the blocker (so he's as close to the blocker as possible when he starts digging.  He's still guaranteed to be facing right when he starts digging, and the digger's pit has the same width no matter what.)  Not sure if 3-4 pixels is enough to improve matters.

[Clam]

I just found a way to solve it in 3 skills, without glitches. It does take some luck though - depending on how you time the digger and basher you could end up saving anywhere from about 20% to just above the required 40%, essentially at random. But no glitches

Replay attached.

[ccexplore]

Oh right, so there you go, a different method exists <slaps forehead >.

Below's a quick verbal description for those who aren't equipped for viewing Lemmix replays:

Set a blocker near the leftmost entrance, near the location close to the pillar where lemmings from that entrance land at, so that everyone from the leftmost entrance is compressed into a single position.  Then just have someone from the right-most crowd dig and bash left, so that everyone, including the blocker, is freed.  Then depending on your luck, enough lemmings will make it through the traps for the required percentage saved.  (Clam's solution achieved 44%)

[ccexplore]

with the rest the same as non-glitchless. I would be especially interested if anyone can improve 17.

Instead I improved Fun 27 to 4 for no-glitch, although I wouldn't be surprise if someone (Clam?) actually reported that result already on this thread, before it was superceded by the lame glitched solution of 2 pointed out by me.  Too lazy to check old posts; [edit: actually, since a 3-skill glitch solution also exists, it's more likely that is what Clam first reported for the original challenge thread]

anyway a hint below for 4-skills, no-glitch:

Find a way to turn around a lemming without using a blocker, by taking advantage of the transient effects of a skill you are already using for another purpose.