Author Topic: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?  (Read 33108 times)

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Offline LemSteven

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What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« on: June 20, 2009, 06:35:58 AM »
Inspired by the "One of each skill" thread, I've decided to start a similar thread.  This time, we are looking for the levels that are beatable in under one minute.

Here's the full list of what we have so far:

Lemmings
Fun -- 1-13, 16, 17, 18, 20, 24, 25, 26, 27, 29, 30
Tricky -- 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9-13, 15-28
Taxing -- 2-6, 9, 10, 16, 18, 19, 21, 22, 24, 26, 27, 29, 30
Mayhem -- 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 10-16, 18, 20, 24, 25, 27

ONML
Tame -- All
Crazy -- 1, 2, 3, 5, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 19, 20
Wild -- 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 17, 18, 19, 20
Wicked -- 1, 3-8, 13, 14, 16-20
Havoc -- 6, 7, 10, 12, 14-19

Holiday Lemmings
Frost:  2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 13, 14, 15, 16
Hail:  2, 4, 5, 6, 15, 16
Flurry:  1-5, 9, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16
Blitz:  6, 7, 8, 10, 14, 16

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2009, 09:05:24 AM »
Another Lemmings variant. I love it :). Off the top of my head...

Just a minute (Mayhem 16)
Just a minute part 2 (Mayhem 27)
Flow Control (Havoc 10)
All of Tame except 15
Crazy 1
Crazy 3
Wicked 20
Chill out! (forgot the level number)
Now get out of that!
Wicked 1
We all fall down (4th one would need to be tested, first three are definitely possible)
Synchronised Lemming

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2009, 08:55:21 PM »
Here's the list for Tricky so far:

Tricky:  1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9-13, 15-26, 28

The reason why I say "so far" is because I suspect that 11 is possible as well, but I haven't been able to execute it.  It would definitely require use of the sliding glitch to get everybody up there quickly.

Also 19 looks like it's just out of reach.  Although feel free to give it a try.  I spent a good amount of time on it with no luck.  Maybe Clam Spammer or ccexplore might have better luck...  Edit:  Good job ccexplore!

Several of these are quite difficult to pull off.  In particular, 10 can be considered "challenge worthy."  Several others (e.g. 1, 20, 21, & 24) will also come down to the last few seconds.

Finally, not all of these will get the maximum possible score.  25, for example, I believe only works with the 12% method.

Edit:  Tricky 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 16, and 19 added.

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2009, 12:02:35 AM »
Tricky 11 is doable with about 20 seconds to spare. You can add to the current list Tricky 3, 9 and 13, as well as Fun 16.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2009, 05:09:54 AM »
Good job!   :thumbsup:

It looks like I missed the use of the sliding glitch on Fun 16 and Tricky 3.  Tricky 9 looks like it goes the direct route through the steel, and Tricky 13 I should have seen...  :-[


Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2009, 05:31:39 AM »
Allow me to reiterate my plea for a better in-game display in the new version of Lemmix, or whatever it is we come up with. It's quite useful to know how many lemmings we need to save while playing a level...


I'll round out the original Lemmings levels:

TAXING - 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 10, 18, 19, 21, 22, 26, 27, 29, 30.
MAYHEM - 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 18, 20, 24, 25, 27.
edit: added Taxing 2, 3, 27, 29, Mayhem 2, 7, 8, 10, 14, 18, 20, 25

It turns out that We All Fall Down version 4 (Mayhem 11) is possible. The fastest possible solution (without using the pausing-for-time trick) goes right down to the last frame - if you set the time limit to 1 minute, the clock ticks over to 0.00 just after the last lemming makes it through the exit.

By the way: are we going to allow pausing for time here? Maybe we should put a * alongside levels that can be done this way, but not (or at least unconfirmed) without it.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2009, 07:00:29 AM »
I'd say that pausing at the beginning of the level to save a couple of seconds is perfectly acceptable.  Anything that you can do in DOS/Amiga lemmings is fair game, in my opinion.  This also includes the Nuke glitch for when Wild 9 comes up...

Anyway, you can add Taxing 2 to the list.  Most of the route is pretty straightforward, actually.  It's just a matter of achieving everything as quickly as possible, which is not so easy.

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2009, 07:13:53 AM »
I'd say that pausing at the beginning of the level to save a couple of seconds is perfectly acceptable.  Anything that you can do in DOS/Amiga lemmings is fair game, in my opinion.  This also includes the Nuke glitch for when Wild 9 comes up...

All right then. Mayhem 11 is possible with 2 seconds to spare ;)

I'll have another look at Taxing 2. If I can confirm it I'll add it to the list.
EDIT: Got it :).

Found another two - Taxing 29 and Mayhem 7. Both "clones" of earlier levels that are already on the list, and not too difficult to adjust to the more limited skillsets and greater % requirements.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2009, 11:39:32 AM »
By the way: are we going to allow pausing for time here? Maybe we should put a * alongside levels that can be done this way, but not (or at least unconfirmed) without it.

If we're thinking along that line, there's one more thing to consider:  the "fade-out" after time reaches 0 lasts much longer if you run the game in "high performance PC" mode, and lemmings that exit during that fade out still counts.  You may gain as much as a second or so.

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2009, 12:13:36 PM »
Tricky 16 is confirmed :). The solution uses every skill, saves the absolute minimum number of lemmings, and requires perfect timing on some of the bombers. :D

And in case you missed the edit to my previous post, I've completed another two in Taxing/Mayhem - both repeats of earlier maps.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2009, 06:23:13 PM »
Good work!  :thumbsup:

Tricky 16 looked possible given the skills, but I was having problems with the lemmings being too bunched up when I did the bombing at the end, and some would leak past and mess up the solution.

As for Tricky 19, I'm having more and more doubts on that one working out.  I can get 98% easily, but I don't have a way of stopping my basher.

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2009, 11:53:36 PM »
I had the same problem with Tricky 16. It's possible to work around this with some careful bomber timing.

I now have evidence that Tricky 7 can be done in one minute as well - but my current solution only works with pausing at the start. My replay has 74% in (the requirement is 73%) when the clock reaches 3:58. I have two builders spare, which might just be enough to take off those last two seconds.

EDIT: I've got it! 78% through the exit in 1 minute on Lemmix. Here's the replay. Try it on your own first if you want, but be aware that it takes quite a lot of work.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2009, 12:03:39 PM »
Also 19 looks like it's just out of reach.  Although feel free to give it a try.  I spent a good amount of time on it with no luck.  Maybe Clam Spammer or ccexplore might have better luck...

Sure.  You can add Tricky 19 to the list now.  Replay attached.

[Disclosure:  yes, I used my detailed knowledge of the game mechanics (and many sketchings) to work it out.  Trying to get it work blindly would probably take many tries.]
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 08:59:36 AM by Minim »

Offline EricLang

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2009, 09:51:30 PM »
@Clam Spammer:

Quote
EDIT: I've got it! 78% through the exit in 1 minute on Lemmix. Here's the replay. Try it on your own first if you want, but be aware that it takes quite a lot of work.

Isn't it 88%? Great job!

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2009, 10:46:57 PM »
Sure.  You can add Tricky 19 to the list now.  Replay attached.

I've never seen that trick before. Very nice :)


@Clam Spammer:
Isn't it 88%? Great job!

If you open it in the Lemmix editor, set the time limit to 1 minute, and load the replay, you get 78%. If you allow another two or three seconds, you can actually get more than 88% since you can do without some of the blockers. Plus there's one that fell off the bottom of the screen that could have possibly been saved.


And I may have spoken too soon about Tame 15. If you remove the obstacles (which amount to three terrain pieces - such is the nature of Tame levels :P), you can get 50% through the exit before the clock reaches 2:58. There's no way to get a 1-minute solution that works in Lemmix, but it could just be possible in DOSBox.


EDIT: Found another one. Tricky 5. At a glance, it looks a bit too far, which might explain why we've missed it until now. In fact, it's very easy. Tricky 4 starts you less than a minute's walk from the exit, but there's a lot of building to do, which takes up a fair bit of time and appears to put this one out of reach.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2009, 01:04:33 AM »
Tricky 6 starts you less than a minute's walk from the exit, but there's a lot of building to do, which takes up a fair bit of time and appears to put this one out of reach.
??? LemSteven already has Tricky 6 on his list, and you have Taxing 10 in your list.  Are you sure you don't mean some other level?

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2009, 03:27:20 AM »
Oops. I meant Tricky 4 :-[

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2009, 07:27:12 AM »
Good job again!  :thumbsup:

One question though:  Would Taxing 8 be possible, or does Tricky 5 save less than 100% and/or use skills not available in Taxing 8?

Anyway, here's what I've got so far in Crazy:

Crazy -- 1, 2, 3, 5, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 19, 20

Note that 15 uses an outrageous backroute that's pretty obvious once you see it.
Quote from: Highlight to read
It's actually quite similar to my Taxing 22 challenge.

Unfortunately, several levels (e.g. 9, 17, and 18) are almost certainly impossible due to the large amount of walking involved.

Edit:  Crazy 13 added.

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2009, 08:51:59 AM »
One question though:  Would Taxing 8 be possible, or does Tricky 5 save less than 100% and/or use skills not available in Taxing 8?

At the moment, I can't say for sure if Taxing 8 is possible. I suspect that there are too few builders available to cross the two gaps at the end quickly enough. The walking time isn't too much once the path is ready, but preparing the path takes time.


I don't have anything to add to the Crazy list at the moment. However, I do have a couple more from Mayhem: 8 and 10. Plus there's another Original Lemmings level that I haven't yet ruled out, and have made some progress towards potentially solving...

By the way: the Tricky level I just did was 5, not 4. Could you please fix up your list?

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2009, 11:03:10 AM »
However, I do have a couple more from Mayhem: 8 and 10.

Ack!  I was working on Mayhem 8! :XD:

Wish I didn't waste the time, but here's my replay anyway.

I'd like to see the replay for Mayhem 10.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 09:08:21 AM by Minim »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2009, 12:45:07 PM »
Crazy -- 1, 2, 3, 5, 11, 12, 15, 16, 19, 20

I've got Crazy 13.  Replay attached.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 09:10:03 AM by Minim »

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2009, 05:08:05 PM »
I've got Crazy 13.  Replay attached.

Good job! :thumbsup:  I saw some potential with that one, too, so I'm not surprised to see it solved.  I hadn't verified it, though, so that's why it wasn't originally on the list.

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2009, 12:25:03 AM »
I've got Crazy 13.  Replay attached.

I just realised that my old challenge on this level (19/20 without the climber or floater) is much simpler than I thought, and can be done saving 100% and with a miner to spare. :XD:

Re. Mayhem 8 and 10. I don't have replays for these, because:
[8] I thought this one was too simple to warrant a replay - your solution is much more complicated than it needs to be.
[10] My attempt came up less than one second short, and I haven't had a chance to try this one again, though I'm 99.9% sure that it can be done.
I'll upload the replays as soon as I have them - probably tonight.

The other level I'm wondering about is Fun 29. This looks like it's going to be even tougher than Tricky 7. However, I have a plan - and plenty of skills to work with :)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2009, 01:34:34 AM »
[8] I thought this one was too simple to warrant a replay - your solution is much more complicated than it needs to be.
Oh right, you can blow up one-way-walls.  Whoops. :XD:

But, perhaps my solution can be modified to lose fewer lemmings than yours?

Quote
[10] My attempt came up less than one second short, and I haven't had a chance to try this one again, though I'm 99.9% sure that it can be done.
I'll upload the replays as soon as I have them - probably tonight.
I assume this is one second short on Lemmix?  I'm fine with seeing a replay for that even if it doesn't work in Lemmix (I can always just modify the time limit to see how close you get).  More power to you if you manage a replay tonight that works in Lemmix. :thumbsup:

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2009, 01:37:31 AM »
Oh right, you can blow up one-way-walls.  Whoops. :XD:

But, perhaps my solution can be modified to lose fewer lemmings than yours?

Actually, I used diggers to get through the one-way wall. My solution was fairly untidy (a few lemmings fell off the bottom) but quick and simple to execute.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2009, 05:15:58 AM »
All right, here's Wild so far:

Wild -- 1, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 17, 18, 19, 20

Of these, 18 was by far the most challenging.  Also, I was only able to get 9 via the nuke glitch, and 11 requires some steel abuse.

Most of the others require a lot of work to prepare the route, making a 1-minute solution unlikely.  Of these, 3 looks like the most likely candidate, but I haven't had any luck due to builders being in short supply.

Edit:  Added 3 & 19

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2009, 07:02:02 AM »
Here they are. Mayhem 8 and 10. 10 actually has over 2 seconds to spare :)

Fun 29 has turned out good too. Check it out.

Well done on the Wild levels LemSteven. I missed 11 when I went through these myself. :thumbsup:

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2009, 09:18:06 AM »
Good job ClamSpammer and LemSteven. :thumbsup:

The use of the sliding glitch for Mayhem 10 and especially Fun 29 are beautiful to watch. 8-) I hereby proclaim ClamSpammer master slider. ;P

I've just managed Taxing 3.  Interestingly, it doesn't use the sliding glitch.  (Well, I decided to rule out that glitch early on with this level, since you don't have blockers and you need 100%.)  Possibly one of the messiest solution I've presented so far.  The solution also won't work on Fun 16 because it needs 24 builders minimum (I used 27 in the replay).
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 09:13:48 AM by Minim »

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2009, 10:51:06 AM »
The use of the sliding glitch for Mayhem 10 and especially Fun 29 are beautiful to watch. 8) I hereby proclaim ClamSpammer master slider. ;P

I saw this glitch for the first time in... your replay for Mayhem 10. It's come full circle :D

Great work on Taxing 3. I noticed fairly quickly that the sliding trick wasn't going to work here either. Unfortunately, there are a few other levels where this applies, and you don't have 30 of everything to save the lemmings some other way :(

I love the messiness that these lemmings variants bring. It's a nice change from the maximum percentage and other challenges that require you to be clean and efficient.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2009, 11:12:12 AM »
I love the messiness that these lemmings variants bring. It's a nice change from the maximum percentage and other challenges that require you to be clean and efficient.

Indeed, it's amazing how different some of these 1-minute solutions are compared with the "normal" solutions.

Anyway, I've now got Mayhem 20 in the bag as well.  Unsurprisingly, it's basically the standard solution, with just one minor but important change:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 09:17:32 AM by Minim »

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2009, 12:00:12 PM »
Anyway, I've now got Mayhem 20 in the bag as well.  Unsurprisingly, it's basically the standard solution, with just one minor but important change:

Argh, of course :)

A suggestion: can we put the whole list in one post? Preferably the first one, if you're happy to keep it up to date, LemSteven.


I notice this thread takes up the whole "recent posts" list now. :D

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2009, 02:00:02 AM »
I've got a new one for Wild. Not 3, which was suggested as a likely candidate, but 19. The abundance of builders allows you to get across the gaps very quickly if you know how - which you should after seeing my replay for Mayhem 8 :)

And we can now add Mayhem 2 to the list as well. ;)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 09:19:51 AM by Minim »

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2009, 06:34:21 AM »
I've got a new one for Wild. Not 3, which was suggested as a likely candidate, but 19. The abundance of builders allows you to get across the gaps very quickly if you know how - which you should after seeing my replay for Mayhem 8 :)

And we can now add Mayhem 2 to the list as well. ;)

Well done!  :thumbsup:  Also, Wild 3 is now confirmed!  8)

A suggestion: can we put the whole list in one post? Preferably the first one, if you're happy to keep it up to date, LemSteven.

That sounds like a good idea.  I'll go ahead and do that.  In the meantime, here's Wicked:

Wicked -- 1, 3-8, 14, 16-20

Edit:  Added 18

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2009, 09:18:18 AM »
Also, Wild 3 is now confirmed!  8)

Wow, great work! I tried this one again today and still couldn't manage it... :(


Quote
I'm pretty sure 18 is possible as well, but I haven't verified it.

It certainly is possible. Once again, the large number of builders makes this fairly straightforward.

Here are my replays for Mayhem 2 and Wild 19. More sliding action :D

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2009, 11:52:28 PM »
Here's one that I doubt anyone expected to come up:

Mayhem 188)


And while I'm at it I may as well post Taxing 27 too.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2009, 12:38:29 AM »
Wow, good job! :thumbsup: Although I actually find Taxing 27 more surprising.  After seeing how to setup the glitch w/o bashers in Mayhem 2, Mayhem 18 went more or less the way I'd expected.

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2009, 01:51:58 AM »
And there's still more. Here's Mayhem 14 and 25. :)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2009, 02:48:04 AM »
Oh good, I was working on Mayhem 25 but was 1 lemming and 5 or so seconds over.  I'm so glad I don't have to redo this now.

Good job on Mayhem 14 as well.  I knew you could use the glitch to get the crowd up, but I hadn't quite worked out the best way to handle what happens afterwards.  Your solution answered all those questions.

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2009, 03:34:06 AM »
Okay, one more. Wild 5. This might be the last one until we start on Havoc, since I can't find any others that could be done this way.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2009, 06:50:38 AM »
Here're the Havoc levels I've confirmed so far:  6, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19.  In other words, basically only the "straightforward" ones (for now anyway).  15 and 19 I think has already showed up before as "ceiling route" challenges.

At first glance, there doesn't seem to be any Havoc levels that are conducive to the sliding glitch approach.  Perhaps Havoc 13? ???

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2009, 09:45:30 AM »
I don't know about 13. It looks like there's just too much to do there. However (unrelated to the sliding glitch), you can add 7 to the list. I guess this is kind of a "ceiling route" too :D

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2009, 09:27:01 PM »
Confirmed Frost levels (from Holiday Lemmings 94):

Frost: 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 13, 14, 15*, 16

1, 6 and 11 are definitely impossible due to amount of walking required (ie. adding/removing terrain to provide a free path to exit and at RR 99, the lemmings still won't reach the exit in time, not even close).  12 is also almost certainly impossible, as the limited skills seem to enforce the one and only intended solution which is far too slow.

This leaves 7, 10 and 15 as the only ones I'm still investigating.  15 definitely cannot be done in Lemmix because again, the amount of walking alone has the clock at 3-59 by the time the last lemming exits, and only 96% at 4-00 (you need 98%).  But that's still within reach in the actual game if you use the pause glitch.  That said, you still don't have much spare time, consequently requiring you to start at a fairly high RR fairly early in the level, which may prove problematic.

[edit: adding 15 to the list with a "*" to indicate the need for the pause trick]

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2009, 01:38:12 AM »
I think you can file 10 in the same category as 12. There's a little more scope for steel glitches, but nowhere near enough. 7 is going to take a lot of work to optimise the timing, and 15 is just inconvenient ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" />


Here are the Hail levels that I've been able to do thus far:

2, 4, 5, 6, 15, 16.

Not a very long list, and most of the others are clearly impossible due to length, building time, or percentage requirements that force a particular solution. The only other level that looks even remotely plausible is 11.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2009, 03:13:41 AM »
Ok, while working on Frost 15, I discovered a major bug in Lemmix/LemmixPlayer with its handling of 3-entrance levels.  I can't believe it hasn't been caught until now (in fact I could've sworn it was discovered and fixed long ago, guess not).

Given 3 entrances in order of index, say A, B and C, the correct ordering is A B C B A B C B.  This is the case for all versions of Lemmings/ONML/HolidayLemmings as far as I know.  Lemmix right now however seems to be doing A B C A A B C A instead.

Fortunately, not too many levels have 3 entrances.  But any Lemmix replay for any 3-entrance level should be retested, since the solution may not work, or at least needs modifications to work.

A quick way to get the correct ordering in Lemmix is to edit the level by introducing a 4th entrance.  Make a copy of the 2nd entrance object, make sure it has the highest index of all entrances in the level, and then place it in the exact same location as the 2nd entrance.

[edit:  good news!  Lemmix does the 3-entrance ordering correctly for DOS Original Lemmings, so only ONML and Holiday Lemming levels are affected]

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2009, 04:07:48 AM »
15 definitely cannot be done in Lemmix because again, the amount of walking alone has the clock at 3-59 by the time the last lemming exits, and only 96% at 4-00 (you need 98%).

I have to retest this because this is a 3-entrance level.  I found that with the correct entrance ordering, the walking alone does allow 98% save at 4-00.  However, this means you cannot sacrifice any lemmings in your solution (other than the one that couldn't make the exit in time, who would come along way too late anyway to be doing anything useful).  So it's still highly unlikely that you could beat this level under one minute without the pause glitch.

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2009, 05:01:53 AM »
Oh good, I won't have to do "Triple Trouble" again. That was a nightmare to execute :XD:. The only other 3-trapdoor level in Original Lemmings (Tricky 29) is impossible due to walking distance anyway. I've checked Havoc 12, the only 3-trapdoor level in ONML, and it still works.


It's funny you should mention this bug, because I've recently found another one that is going to come into play very shortly. In Blitz 3, "Check Your Hints!", the first two exits work in Lemmix but not in DOS. They have index numbers 15 and 16 - which is interesting, because I thought #15 was supposed to work in DOS ???. Anyway, after a bit of testing I've found that object #17 (if it is a trap or exit) also triggers in Lemmix, but from #18 onwards they work (or don't work :P) as they should.


The end result of all this is that Blitz 3 is solvable in one minute in Lemmix, using the first or second exit, but not in DOS where only the 7th exit works.

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2009, 10:52:22 AM »
It's funny you should mention this bug, because I've recently found another one that is going to come into play very shortly. In Blitz 3, "Check Your Hints!", the first two exits work in Lemmix but not in DOS. They have index numbers 15 and 16 - which is interesting, because I thought #15 was supposed to work in DOS ???. Anyway, after a bit of testing I've found that object #17 (if it is a trap or exit) also triggers in Lemmix, but from #18 onwards they work (or don't work :P) as they should.

I tested things out a little more and this looks like a bug in Lemmix's level-loading programming.  I found that if I extract the Blitz3 level from the original levelpak in Lemmix, save it as an LVL, and then do a "replace level" in Lemmix to put this LVL back into the levelpak, this actually changes the level so that when you play it in DOSBox, the leftmost exit works!

I'll have to do more testing to see what exactly Lemmix did wrong with level loading.  The most likely way this error occurs is if Lemmix shifted all the object indices down by 1, so that what you see as exit object #15 in Lemmix should really have been #16.  But I'd think most levels use object index #0, so what happens to that index?  Another possibility is that maybe this level did not use object index #0, and that somehow causes the shift in object indices in Lemmix.

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2009, 11:44:42 AM »
And here's another thing: The third exit is object #17, and it doesn't work. But when I tested a level in Original Lemmings and Custom Lemmings modes, object #17 worked. Lemmix seems to handle this differently depending on the viewer mode, much like it does with multiple entrances. (For what it's worth, ONML mode has object #17 as a fake.)

Maybe it would be a good idea to open up the level in Lemedit and check the index numbers on the objects. It's quite possible that this level skipped an object index, as you suggest, to produce fake objects. I'm not very familiar with LemEdit (I used it briefly before switching to Lemmix), but apparently this let you create fake objects in this way, whereas Lemmix doesn't.

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #48 on: June 27, 2009, 02:20:49 PM »
Here's my best effort for Frost 15.  I haven't actually verified this in the actual DOS game, but I can offer strong evidence that it should work with the pause trick.

Attached is the Lemmix replay and 2 test levels.  Frost15_lemmix_fixed.lvl has the fix for the entrance ordering, and is the level you should use for the replay in Lemmix.  You'll note that I had the RR at 99 for all except one time, where I briefly drop it to 71 before resuming RR 99 afterwards.

The level F15TEST.LVL is a modified version of the level, design to help show that the last lemming will exit in time if you apply the pause glitch in the DOS game:

1) the time limit is set to 1 minute
2) all the obstacles you'd need to bash through have been removed.
3) terrain have been added to replicate the builder's bridge at the end.

The only thing I didn't bother accounting for terrain-wise is the basher I used to delay the crowd from the trailblazer (before the final bashing and building), which you can easily do yourself when testing the F15TEST level.  My goal for that level is to replicate closely the same path the last lemming out will take to get to the exit.

Replacing the original level (in level001.dat) with F15TEST.LVL, I've tested the level in DOS with the pause trick, and find that using the same RR changes (99-71-99), and doing the basher I didn't account for in the terrain, the last lemming will make the exit in time.  (In fact, I got it to work even with the RR 71 replaced by RR 69.)  Therefore it's likely that my Lemmix solution will work in DOS within 1 minute, using the pause trick.

DOSBox now supports video capture, so maybe further into the future, I can settle this for real that way.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 07:43:44 PM by Minim »

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2009, 12:17:47 AM »
I gave the DOSBox video recording thing a try.  My best effort so far for Frost 15 is here:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/Frost15_DOSBox_almost.zip [edit: file removed and replaced with a successful attempt: http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/Frost15_1min_DOS.zip]

(You'll need to install the video codec that comes with DOSBox to play the video.  Also, because of the way DOSBox video recording works, you get 2 files, one during the game, and one for the %-saved screen after the game.)

Unfortunately the video is much choppier than I expected, so I understand it's not entirely convincing from the video that the last lemming makes it out in time, but it does.  The video has almost every part of my solution done correctly, except the builder (I built one pixel too early, causing the lost of 1 more lemming).

Until I figure out how to get the video recording not to be so choppy, I'm not going to make another attempt at this for now.  My efforts did leave no doubt to me that Frost 15 is definitely possible in DOS with a 1-minute time limit, if you use the pause trick.

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2009, 02:17:11 AM »
The video doesn't look choppy at all for me. I'd say that video is enough proof that it can be done. A couple of things I'd like to point out:

 - You can use a release rate of 87 instead of 71, and it will still work. Anything higher will lose lemmings to the left.
- There is a better way to use the 2nd and 3rd bashers. You can create a bigger gap for the builder so that you don't need to time it perfectly.
- Falling time matters. Time spent falling is time spent not moving towards the exit. If you can flatten out the terrain to avoid falling (and jumping), you can get the lemmings to the exit a little faster.

I've attached a replay to demonstrate these points (using your fixed version of the level). By my reckoning, this gets the last lemming through the exit 11 frames sooner - 8 from the release rate, 2 from falling time and 1 from jumping (your 3rd basher leaves a 3-pixel rise that the lemmings have to jump up). I know this is a bit nitpicky, considering we already have proof that this is possible, but it could be useful in some cases - like Tame 15 for example.

And by the way, I've also refined my solution to Taxing 27. It now saves 77/80, which equals the current record, and takes only 35 seconds.


@LemSteven: Can you please update the list? There's quite a few levels missing.

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2009, 08:19:45 AM »
I can now say for certain that Tame 15 can be done in one minute in DOS. Like I mentioned in the above post, the key here is to minimise the time wasted in falling and jumping. The attached replay shows that the required 50% can be saved before the clock ticks over to 2:58, i.e. within a minute and two seconds. And, of course, those two seconds can be made up by pausing at the start. It is actually possible to get an extra lemming in by digging away parts of the mountain to flatten it out a little.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 07:51:13 PM by Minim »

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2009, 11:16:10 AM »
The video doesn't look choppy at all for me. I'd say that video is enough proof that it can be done. A couple of things I'd like to point out:

Thanks for the tips!  I'm now able to complete a successful DOSBox video using your modified solution, so Frost 15 is finally fully confirmed.

I actually did try a bunch of higher release rates when experimenting in Lemmix, but I wasn't successful with anything higher than 71.  In hindsight the problem was probably the exact position I started mining/bombing, rather than the RR.

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2009, 10:47:49 PM »
"The Compressed (zipped) Folder is invalid or corrupted"

Never mind, I'm convinced already. I've also confirmed that Frost 7 is possible with pause glitch, replay attached.


Now that we've sorted that out , let's move on to Flurry:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 9, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16.

13 is frustrating with its 100% requirement. 6 and 7 aren't strictly too long, but there doesn't seem to be a quick enough way to overcome the obstacles.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 11:46:51 AM by Minim »

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2009, 11:06:37 PM »
Okay, I've updated the list with the Holiday Lemmings levels that have been posted so far.  However, I am leaving for a trip on Tuesday, so I'm going to be away from my computer for a week.  Once I'm gone, I won't be able to update the list until I get back. 

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2009, 11:32:22 PM »
Ooh.. I guess this means you're going to miss the next thread. I've got a good idea for what the next one could be. I could start it now to give you a chance to contribute before you go.

We probably won't need to add the Holiday levels to the list urgently. However, I would like to mention the Original and ONML levels we've done more recently that you haven't added to the list:

Fun 29
Mayhem 14, 18, 25
Wild 5

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #56 on: June 30, 2009, 02:04:49 PM »
Okay, one more. Wild 5. This might be the last one until we start on Havoc, since I can't find any others that could be done this way.

Turns out you missed one:  Wicked 13.  Replay attached.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 11:50:51 AM by Minim »

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2009, 10:51:57 PM »
Well, I was bound to miss one somewhere. Good job :)

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #58 on: July 01, 2009, 11:25:41 AM »
I've gotten Taxing 16.  It actually took a little work to fully optimize the solution so that it works in Lemmix (ie. without using the pause trick).

In my replay, at the point where you need to assign builder to a left-facing lemming amidst the crowd of right-facing lemmings, you have to place the cursor at a precise location and you have exactly one frame when the assignment can be made (similar to my lose-1 solution for Tricky 23).  You can probably avoid this by adjusting the RR at the appropriate point, to create a gap in the crowd matching the time/place in which you need to assign builder to the left-facing lemming.  (I didn't do that in my replay, because I didn't originally have the left-facing builder.  Making the RR adjustment would've forced me to revert farther back to an earlier point in the saved solution replay.)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 11:53:04 AM by Minim »

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2009, 01:12:52 PM »
I've finished my first pass at the Blitz levels.  Looks to be another short list:

Blitz: 6, 7, 8, 10, 14, 16

Replay for Blitz 8 attached.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 11:53:21 AM by Minim »

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2009, 10:12:36 PM »
Well done on 8. I missed that one :(

I guess all that's left is the Xmas lemmings demos:
1991 - 4 (a.k.a. Wicked 3)
1992 - 1 and 2


As I mentioned before, I have an idea for another Lemmings variant/challenge thread, though I might hold off on this until LemSteven gets back.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #61 on: July 03, 2009, 02:22:29 AM »
I'm definitely fine with holding off until LemSteven gets back.

Especially since I'm still finding more levels to add to the list.  Like Taxing 24.

This one is a pain to do even on Lemmix, since in making "the stack", perfect timing is required 3 or 4 times in assigning builder to a lemming right after he stops jumping and right before he starts walking.

I don't think there's a lot of room to optimize the solution, since the bottleneck is not so much the crowd as it is the 2 lemmings that keeps building after the stack is ready.  The clock has comfortably not reached 58 yet in my replay when the required % is reached, so it should be possible in DOS with the pause trick, plus you can use the high-performance fade-out trick to further extend your time.

I'm not going to bother redoing the replay, but the original solution I have in mind actually involves having the 2 bottleneck lemmings build against the base of a left-going bridge to turn around, which will probably be easier to execute than what I ended up doing in my replay (which just happened to work, I didn't really plan that).  You should be able to arrange this if you let 2 rather than just 1 lemming leak out while the stack is still forming.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 11:54:33 AM by Minim »

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2009, 05:15:09 AM »
I'm definitely fine with holding off until LemSteven gets back.

Especially since I'm still finding more levels to add to the list.

Now you mention it... so am I :P

Here's Tricky 27.

And I've just found that Wild 9 can be done in one minute without using the nuke glitch. So we can remove the asterisk from this one :)

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #63 on: July 03, 2009, 09:29:32 AM »
Good job! :thumbsup:  The way you used the sliding glitch on Tricky 27 is unexpected yet effective. 8)

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #64 on: July 04, 2009, 02:36:26 AM »
Got another one. Havoc 18.


I'm wondering whether Wild 12 is possible. I managed to get 76% in (the requirement is 80%) at 1:58. There doesn't seem to be much room to improve on this, but if you want to try it, here's a very useful tip:

Quote
You can get a tightly packed group of lemmings through the ice-blower trap using a blocker.

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #65 on: July 04, 2009, 04:38:00 AM »
About Wild 12:  It may be possible to improve, so don't give up!  76% is a great start for the one minute challenges.

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #66 on: July 05, 2009, 01:14:50 AM »
Thanks for the encouragement. It seems to have worked :)

I've improved this to 80% at 1:59, which means that when we add in the two seconds for pausing at the start, it can be done in under one minute. Replay attached.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 11:55:39 AM by Minim »

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #67 on: July 05, 2009, 04:22:17 AM »
Here's a surprise - Mayhem 12.

I say "surprise" because I thought it was impossible to make the climber into a basher at the right spot (I'd tried it before on other levels, without success). And, of course, the whole solution hinges on that.


EDIT: Alternate route using the steel-digging glitch I mentioned recently in the Glitches thread. I'll have to describe it in words since the Lemmix replay doesn't capture it:
Quote from: spoilers
Build into the wall and get a lemming to dig down next to the steel. Now hold the cursor so that the digger is just inside it. Make the next lemming dig just before it turns around in the steel. Repeat a few times and you should be far enough through to bash the rest.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #68 on: July 05, 2009, 11:51:32 AM »
Here's a surprise - Mayhem 12.
Excellent!  8) I love how you manage to compress the lemmings despite the lack of blockers.  I was thinking of using the 7-builder stack as a substitute for the blocker, so I'm glad you beat me to it with something far more elegant and simpler.

I say "surprise" because I thought it was impossible to make the climber into a basher at the right spot (I'd tried it before on other levels, without success).

I have to say I didn't even think it would be impossible until you mention this.  I did double-check that you get the same behavior in the actual DOS game:  after it hits its head and land above the ninth row of pixels from top of screen, its next climb does not detect a ceiling.  The climber's programming does check the level's top boundary however, and so that is what triggers the next "bump and fall" where it lands above the 7th row of pixels (notice that we skip one row), which is just barely low enough to still allow a basher to bash without stopping.

It should work anywhere, so maybe you should revisit those levels where you thought it was impossible.

Offline Clam

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #69 on: July 05, 2009, 09:50:34 PM »
I've had a look through the levels to see if this (or the steel-digging trick) could be useful, but I couldn't find any that haven't been done already.

The "direct route" through the steel has shown up an apparent inconsistency in the game mechanics (though I'm sure you'll know why it happens ;) (edit: maybe not. It's very unusual)). I'm going to take this to the glitch thread since I have a couple of other questions too...

(edit: How foolish of me to think that you don't know something about this game. :P)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2009, 07:47:58 AM »
(edit: How foolish of me to think that you don't know something about this game. :P)

Well, to be fair, a lot of your recent discoveries did make me go back and look at the programming and game data closely in order to figure out for sure what's going on.  They weren't anything obvious enough that I could just explain it off top of my head. ;)

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2009, 06:05:19 PM »
I was thinking of using the 7-builder stack as a substitute for the blocker . . .

I don't think it takes 7 builders to block the lemmings.  I think it's usually 3-4.  I forget if 2 can work or not.  Of course, I don't know what version of the game you are using, so...

Unless you're talking about the part at the end, although I think that kinda doesn't make sense, so that's probably not what you are referring to.

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2009, 07:47:51 PM »
I was thinking of using the 7-builder stack as a substitute for the blocker . . .

I don't think it takes 7 builders to block the lemmings.  I think it's usually 3-4.  I forget if 2 can work or not.  Of course, I don't know what version of the game you are using, so...

Unless you're talking about the part at the end, although I think that kinda doesn't make sense, so that's probably not what you are referring to.

It makes more sense if you see my 1-minute solution for Taxing 24 for example.  You need at least a height of 7 pixels.  This can be achieved with a minimum of 3 builders, but doing so requires an amount of space that isn't helpful when you want to quickly compress the crowd of lemmings down to 1.  So instead I'd need a setup where you start off with 7 build bricks stacked one on top of another, like this:

Code: [Select]
BBBBBB     W
  BBBBBB   W
    BBBBBB W
    BBBBBB W
    BBBBBB W
    BBBBBB W
    BBBBBB W
    BBBBBB W
    BBBBBB W

(B = pixels of builder's bricks, W = pixels of wall)

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2009, 03:50:57 AM »
Good job on the new finds!  I've added them to the list at the beginning of this thread.  Anyway, I got back from my trip this afternoon, so feel free to start your new thread, Clam Spammer.  Thanks for waiting up for me.  ;)

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2009, 07:20:56 AM »
Welcome back :thumbsup: The new thread is up and ready to go.


I think it would be a good idea to count up the number of levels on the list. By my reckoning, they are (at present):

Lemmings
Fun: 23/30
Tricky: 25/30
Taxing: 17/30
Mayhem: 17/30
Total: 82/120

ONML
Tame: 20/20
Crazy: 11/20
Wild: 13/20
Wicked: 14/20
Havoc: 10/20
Total: 68/100

Xmas:
Xmas 91: 0/2 (this excludes the levels repeated in ONML)
Xmas 92: 2/4
Flurry: 11/16
Blitz: 6/16
Frost: 10/16
Hail: 6/16
Total: 35/70

Overall: 185/290


And you forgot to put Taxing 24 on the list :)

Offline GigaLem

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #75 on: July 17, 2009, 03:55:43 PM »
That would be
Taxing 18/30
Overall 186/290

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #76 on: July 18, 2009, 12:35:43 AM »
Umm... no ???

I notice that Taxing 27 is missing from the list at the start of this thread. With that one included, there's 17 on the list for Taxing.

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #77 on: September 08, 2009, 04:12:07 PM »
And I may have spoken too soon about Tame 15. If you remove the obstacles (which amount to three terrain pieces - such is the nature of Tame levels :P), you can get 50% through the exit before the clock reaches 2:58. There's no way to get a 1-minute solution that works in Lemmix, but it could just be possible in DOSBox.

I wouldn't make it count, even though there are a few seconds wasted before the first lemming comes out.
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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #78 on: September 08, 2009, 07:13:58 PM »
Yeah well, it's not your thread and you're too late anyway, there were already results reported that make use of the pause trick.

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #79 on: September 08, 2009, 07:14:48 PM »
I wonder how the pause trick works.
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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #80 on: September 08, 2009, 07:19:01 PM »
It's been explained several times on the forums :) The essence is that if you pause before the beginning of the level, the couple of seconds it takes for the trapdoor to open aren't subtracted from your game time.

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #81 on: September 20, 2013, 12:02:12 PM »
I did a run through of Lemmings Revolution to see which ones work in under a minute, and found the following levels to be possible:

1.2, 1.3*, 2.1, 3.1, 3.5, 4.2, 7.4, 8.7, 10.10, 12.7

I'm not sure about this one, as I got the requirement bang on the 4:00 mark (5:00 on that level).
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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #82 on: September 20, 2013, 09:37:02 PM »
I'm not sure about this one, as I got the requirement bang on the 4:00 mark (5:00 on that level).

Hmm, it's been a while since I last played it, but I guess I can check over the weekend when I get a chance.

Even though no one has completely worked out the format of level files in Revolution yet, seems like where the time is stored shouldn't be too hard to work out, so maybe one day you'll have the ability to actually play each level with 1 minute set.  I distinctly remember that Revolution is harsher with respect to out of time--whereas earlier games like Lemmings and Lemmings 2 still count any lemmings that exit during the fade-out after times-up, in Revolution they don't count.  While still in the level it will look like they count (ie. you see the counter go up), but then when the game goes into the tally screen, the tally will actually only reflect the number of lemmings exited before the timer hit 0:00.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #83 on: September 29, 2013, 05:06:28 AM »
I'm not sure about this one, as I got the requirement bang on the 4:00 mark (5:00 on that level).
With a slight modification of the method, I got the requirement at the 4:02 mark, so 1 minute is definitely possible.

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Bomb the 13th lemming out as soon as he comes out, and bomb the first two lemmings later on to complete the path to the exit.  Lemmings 3-12 will exit instead of 4-13, which saves a couple of seconds.

Edit: A few more levels confirmed possible within 1 minute:

2.3, 3.3, 6.5, 6.6, 11.9

Offline DragonsLover

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #84 on: October 14, 2013, 03:56:35 AM »
Just something to mention: if you play under the "High Performance PCs mode", you can get extra few seconds at the end because of the level fading out more slowly. I don't know if it's the same thing under Lemmix.
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Offline Minim

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2013, 02:03:49 PM »
I've tried this out on Lemmix, and it doesn't work. :P The Lemmings freeze when the time hits zero.

Interesting mention for the DOS HPPC's mode. I wonder how many seconds we will be able to save altogether when this trick is in conjunction with the pause trick.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: What levels could be beaten in under one minute?
« Reply #86 on: October 14, 2013, 08:49:40 PM »
Just something to mention: if you play under the "High Performance PCs mode", you can get extra few seconds at the end because of the level fading out more slowly.

Already mentioned near the beginning of this thread.  It sounded like it was never needed though (so far...)

Interesting mention for the DOS HPPC's mode. I wonder how many seconds we will be able to save altogether when this trick is in conjunction with the pause trick.

Well actually you don't save any seconds under any conceivable interpretations; this trick just gives you more seconds than indicated by the timer. ;P  It effectively stretches out your final second to unreal lengths.  I think back when it was first mentioned it was said to give you roughly another second.