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Messages - Gronkling

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16
Contests / Re: Level Design Contest #22 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« on: February 09, 2021, 07:04:13 PM »
Here's my replays to all the R1 V1 levels, except for IchoTolot's which I haven't beaten yet

My personal scoring is under spoiler
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

17
Contests / Re: Level Design Contest #22 - Playing Phase (Update Topic)
« on: February 09, 2021, 10:01:46 AM »
Fixed ericderkovits's backroute

18
Contests / Re: Level Design Contest #22 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« on: February 09, 2021, 09:57:49 AM »
Ok, Solved Gronkling's Iron-Age Forge

Yep, that's a backroute :8:()[:

19
Tech & Research / Re: Data structure of the lemmings in MD\Genesis port
« on: February 06, 2021, 12:26:35 AM »
Really cool finds and additions, I'll edit the first post to add what you said. The floater thing with byte 10 does happen when testing in gameplay.
However the blocker doesn't seem to cause an effect in bytes 13 and 14. It resets the counters of byte 10 and 11, and affects byte 6 as you expected.
It seems that skill #19 is given when a lemming is assigned a float whilst falling as you predicted

20
Tech & Research / Re: Data structure of the lemmings in MD\Genesis port
« on: February 05, 2021, 01:58:11 PM »
Hello, what is TAS?
Which files are you analyzing? Maybe I can help.
I have all genesis levels and graphics on my PC (forgot where they exactly came from but ccexplore was involved).

TAS - Tool Assisted Speedrun, using an emulator with the genesis game to get the fastest possible completion time. You can find it in the challenges board
I am just observing how the memory registers in the RAM change based on things that occur in the game. It's not to do with the graphics or levels and I don't need help, I just thought this was interesting.
Anyway I checked in 2P mode as I thought maybe one of the unknown use bytes could be in there, but this just uses an extension of byte 6.

21
Tech & Research / Data structure of the lemmings in MD\Genesis port
« on: February 05, 2021, 02:17:03 AM »
Working on my TAS I've decently reverse-engineered how the data of a lemming is stored, and what data is stored about it. Since the MD/genesis port is very similar to other ports, this may also be true for systems like Amiga and DOS. However there are still some MYSTERIES (fun!), what are byte 10, 13 and 14, and what is skill 19.

Each lemming has 16 bytes stored about it. These chunks of 16 bytes are stored in an array, starting with the data about the first lemming to enter, then the second, and so on. In the version I have, this array starts at address E6B4 in the RAM.

Things found by geoo are in blue text, more details in 3rd reply

Now for a byte-by-byte breakdown of what exactly is stored about each lemming.
BYTE 1: The "half" of the level it is in, if it's in the left half the value is 0, if it's in the right half the value is 1. Basically it's just an extra bit for the X-position of the lemming. Hacking this value to be >1 doesn't seem to result in the lemming being erased, instead it gets "stuck in a wall" rapidly alternating left and right, but not visible in the level.

BYTE 2: The standard X-position of the lemming, all values are used

BYTE 3: The Y-position of the lemming. 0 is the top of the level and 174 is the bottom. There is a "ceiling" at value 8 though and it is impossible to go any higher with current knowledge. The actual bottom of the visible level is 160, but the lemming dies at Y-value 174. Hacking any higher values causes the lemming to instantly die, though hacking it to be it's maximum value causes the lemming to wrap around to the top of the screen, and fall all the way down again with no collision, before dying as usual.

BYTE 4: This one seems to control the X-offset of the sprite used by the lemming, with different skills requiring different offsets to render in the correct position. I have found a single non-hacking glitch where this seems to go wrong, using a climber glitch in terrain, and going through a blocker field may make the sprite render a bit further to the right than it's actual position would suggest for a few frames.

BYTE 5: Same as above, but for the Y-offset.

BYTE 6: Each bit in this byte is a different property
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

BYTE 7: This cycles through the frames of the lemming's sprite animation.

BYTE 8: The skill of the lemming!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

BYTE 9: Bomber countdown. Is set to 79 when a bomber is applied and decreases by 1 every physics update cycle. Turns into an oh-noer when this reaches 0.

BYTE 10: Counts up by two every physics update cycle when a lemming is floating down, seems linked to the floater sprite animation.

BYTE 11: Combined fall distance and builder countdown. It counts up when a lemming is falling to keep track of fall distance, to check if it should splat. When a builder is assigned it counts down from 12, reducing by one each time it lays a step (every 15 physics update cycles). This counter is only reset when the lemming becomes a builder or a faller or a blocker.

BYTE 12: This changes based on what sort of object trigger area or terrain it is in. For example it is 0 when in air, 1 in an exit trigger area, 8 when in a steel area. Haven't really looked into what each number means. This does not seem to actually affect the lemming's actions though, hacking it to be 1 does not cause the lemming to exit for example, and it is reset back to a normal value the next physics update cycle.

BYTE 13 and BYTE 14: UNKNOWN never seen these change, however is referenced in blocker-related code

BYTE 15 and BYTE 16: Work together to give address in memory where to find the sprite's animation: "if you look in the ROM, the value of these bytes plus 0x40644 give you the address where to find the sprites for the state (BYTE 8) this lemming is in. The exact offset also depends on the animation frame of the lemming (BYTE 7), and is computed in the skill-specific rendering code from off_9156 and off_9FC4. For example, for the walker or jumper, you'd find the ROM address of the current sprite of the lemming by taking 0x40664 + 0x168 (the value of BYTE 15-16 for walkers) + 0x28 * (BYTE 7). The sprites are encoded with 4 bits per pixel, and I believe for the walker the dimensions are 8x10 (not sure where the game gets the width and height of each frame from)"

22
Challenges / Re: [Genesis] Lemmings (Genesis Port) TAS (WIP)
« on: February 04, 2021, 01:43:17 AM »
Finished going through each tricky level now, for the next step I will go back through them and check for any time saves that I can think of with a fresh look at the level and a better understanding of things like lag. Unfortunately ccexplore's LUA scripts no longer work due to a major bizhawk update at some point in the last few years, and my programming knowledge isn't good enough to fix them, so I will have to guess a bit at the lag patterns.

I'll edit this post to list improvements
Tricky 1 - No improvement
Tricky 2 - 0:48.03(2387) -> 0:47.26(2349)
Tricky 3 - 0:36.64(1821) -> 0:36.26(1802)
Tricky 4 - No improvement
Tricky 5 - 1:45.77(5257) -> 1:37.02(4822)
Tricky 6 - 0:31.09(1545) -> 0:30.70(1526)
Tricky 7 - 0:38.97(1937) -> 0:37.61(1869)
Tricky 8 - No improvement

23
Challenges / Re: [Genesis] Lemmings (Genesis Port) TAS (WIP)
« on: February 02, 2021, 10:23:13 PM »
I'm just adding new solutions to the OP now since no one was replying, for now I'll make a new post if I come across something interesting, such as...

Today's Genesis mystery:
Sometimes pressing the A button stops a frame or two of lag. For example, I managed to save 4 frames on the tricky 28 solution just by pressing the A button at certain points whilst the game was lagging. I have absolutely no idea why this happens, or how to predict when you should press A.

Got 5 frames off lag-fest fun 14 with this

24
Tech & Research / Re: Glitches in Lemmings
« on: January 31, 2021, 03:40:51 AM »
If a lemming going up through terrain in the standard climber glitch goes into a blocker field, it will move towards to blocker instead of away from it.
In genesis version, the sprite glitches slightly when this happens sometimes, making it offset from it's actual position for a few frames.

--- EDIT

Another one, if a climber hits the level ceiling, it'll become a walker for one frame where you can assign it a skill

25
Tech & Research / Re: Glitches in Lemmings
« on: January 27, 2021, 12:29:11 PM »
In Genesis, a bomber will explode with no "oh-noer" animation if it's timer reaches 0 whilst it is in a trap animation.

Can be seen here
https://youtu.be/vl5KFDKZEYo?t=38

EDIT:
namida found it also works in Lemmix (and even NeoLemmix until it gets patched)

26
Challenges / Re: [Genesis] Lemmings (Genesis Port) TAS (WIP)
« on: January 26, 2021, 12:06:36 PM »
Not a solution but a TECH POST

Decided to look into the difference between NTSC and PAL. We've been using PAL due to the ROM being more easily accessible back when this started, but most speedruns tend to use NTSC and this port was made in an NTSC region, so I wanted to see if there was a big difference.

The PAL version updates everything every 3 frames, whilst the NTSC version updates everything every 4 frames, so played at the same framerate, the NTSC version is 25% slower than the PAL version.
PAL megadrive has framerate of 49.70146, whilst NTSC genesis has framerate of 59.92275, so running the same thing, NTSC is about 20% faster than PAL
Putting this together, the NTSC version should be 10% slower than the PAL version

I did an experiment to check:
Loaded FUN 8, made an input on first frame that the first lemming falls off the platform.
In NTSC, this took 1364 frames, so ~22.76 seconds
In PAL this took 1028 frames, so ~20.68 seconds
1028/1364 = ~0,75
20.68/22.76 = ~0.9
So my predictions work out

Therefor the we should continue using the PAL version because it's faster 8-)

The only thing that does move faster during NTSC gameplay is the cursor since that isn't bound by the physics update cycle

---EDIT

I changed the table on the first post to be more accessible to people not as familiar with frames.

And here's tricky 20 in 55.49 seconds (2758 frames)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_Klq91ybCE

Loads of lemmings here which means its a "don't look directly at the lemmings" level, oh well. Goes under the one way wall as you'd probably expect.

---EDIT2

Tricky 21 in 52.68 seconds (2618 frames)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=38&v=vl5KFDKZEYo

This one features a newly discovered (I think) glitch seen at around 0:38 where a bomber instantly explodes, skipping the oh-no state, due to being caught in a trap at the same time. A bit of a messy and hard to optimise level, I'm sure a few more seconds can be saved here.

27
Challenges / Re: [Genesis] Lemmings (Genesis Port) TAS (WIP)
« on: January 26, 2021, 03:15:29 AM »
Tricky 19 in 2562 frames (~ 51.55s)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAXOPIvfYHw

This one uses a fun trick, cancelling the basher with a miner, then cancelling the miner with a digger. This gives a step that lets the lemmings get up the first obstacle without using a builder, so I don't need to use loads of time bashing and mining through the terrain, giving a solution under a minute.

28
Lemmings Main / Re: NES Lemmings
« on: January 22, 2021, 10:10:12 PM »
Following this thread with interest

29
Challenges / Re: [Genesis] Lemmings (Genesis Port) TAS (incomplete)
« on: January 22, 2021, 03:04:04 AM »
Tricky 13 in 2824 frames (~56.8 seconds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGnWWWAVg5o

Things are definitely getting less open ended now, but still room for creativity with some mini-basher staircase sort of things going on here.

---EDIT

Tricky 14 in 2862 frames (~57.6 seconds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY9u_ky8ab8

One of those chaotic, messy levels, almost certainly improvements can be made somewhere in here, but under 1 minute has me happy enough for the time being.

---EDIT2

Tricky 15 in 808 frames (~16.3 seconds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a76hUMRDnPY

Second quickest yet (and faster than fun 1), nothing really exciting though. Maybe it's possible to get it so the 4th lemming doesn't turn around, but I couldn't

---EDIT3

Tricky 16 in 2475 frames (~49.8 seconds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsehxVtUfnk

A surprisingly hard one, specifically bombing through the netting at the end in a way the doesn't result in too many lemmings turning around. Also the lag reduction here means you can't see the bombing. I'm sure this can be improved, but it'll be annoying

---EDIT4

Two more fairly uninteresting ones

Tricky 17 in 1675 frames (~ 33.7s)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUhN0MbTh4I
(theres nothing much you can do with this one since there's only 2 skills)

Tricky 18 in 1362 frames (~ 27.4s)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=By43Y7av8fQ
pretty much the same as one of the standard ways to solve this level

30
Closed / Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« on: January 20, 2021, 07:03:05 PM »
Copying my response to a different thread

A laser seems too futuristic compared to other skills. A fun idea I had would be to make it just be a lemming yelling really loudly, with the sound acting as the laser, though this might be hard to visualise. Something like a water cannon or hosepipe is another idea to think about as a more original lemming-y feeling laser that can be visualised more easily.

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