@JawaJuice
Thanks! I'm flattered.

If you want my more challenging stuff, you can check out my Halloween pack. Its overall difficulty is slightly above my usual contest level. But judging from how good you are at this game, it probably won't give you much trouble. I honestly don't know if my levels are that difficult though.
If you want something easier, you can look at Holiday Lemmings, which I collaborated on with Mobiethian! For that pack, I focused more on the visuals while keeping the puzzles simple.
There are also some much earlier levels I made, but those were literally the first ones I ever created, so I can't guarantee their goodness.

P.S. I used to be more of a math person back in the day, but these days I'm more into art.

@JawaJuice
Close enough well done!

@WillLem

QuoteJust because something is "long-standing", and a "standard", doesn't mean that (a) it's the right way to do things, (b) it's the best way to do things, or (c) it shouldn't be subject to scrutiny, review, and potential updating.

In other words, "it's always been that way" shouldn't be a strong argument not to try something different.

What I mean by a long-standing community standard is simply that most people have just always done it that way when uploading level packs. They've always had the option to include or not include replays, but most chose not to. I've given my own reasons, but I assume everyone else has their own reasons as well. My reluctance toward your idea can be summed up in one sentence: "I worry that it could create an undeserved disadvantage for the majority of authors who choose not to include replays." Everything else I wrote was simply a response to your response.

QuoteSurely if we can trust users to make solvable levels, we can trust them not to look at solution replays for spoilers! !

Including replays or not has nothing to do with whether we trust players or not. I enjoy seeing how far players can get without having the answers available from the start, but I also understand that some people don't want to put too much time into a single level and prefer to see the solution and move on. So another main purpose of including replays is to allow players to compare their own solutions with my intended solution without having to upload their replays, wait for me to check them, and then wait for my response. By releasing the replays after some time has passed, I can filter out any obvious backroutes or major design oversights before a self-sufficient "ecosystem" forms where players can check the intended solution on their own without my involvement. It has nothing to do with whether I trust users or not, because my intention from the start is to let players freely compare their solutions with mine whenever they choose. Conversely, during the early stages after releasing a level pack, I actually want players to report any fatal issues so I can fix them. That's another reason why I don't publish the solution immediately.



@namida

QuoteLevel-as-directory in general seems like an interesting idea.

This made me wonder : what if, in a completely new hypothetical engine, we created a dedicated website where users could voluntarily upload all sorts of assets related to each level, including styles, solutions, music, previous versions of the levels and so on so that players could download as much or as little as they want.
In a sense, it would be like an expanded version of NeoLemmix's style downloader extended to other categories. By  keeping a core NXLV format and allowing players to download the level, the required styles, and optionally the replay directly from the forum thread, the traditional method would still remain available.   My workplace actually has a similar internal network: all the artists upload their characters, 3D models, sprites, and all sorts of components to the internal repository, and each department can pull whatever they need whenever they need it. The idea I'm suggesting would work somewhat like that.

@JawaJuice

You found the intended solution! I'm glad you like the level.   Yeah, thinking backwards can really help sometimes.

Spoiler

I guess you could call this a trick. Every skill behaves as it normally does but the fact that the blocker is placed right at the edge of a cliff makes the interaction interesting.

regarding your solution to Icho's R1...

Spoiler

Ah yes, the infamous ultimate weapon for backrouting a level.   It's a very powerful tool for breaking things. If I really want my level to be backroute-proof, I check whether the level can be broken if blockers are replaced with any other skill that can cancel a basher(like the walker, builder, jumper, shimmier etc...) But these days I often just live with it and move on.

QuoteWhatever the reason, the level was unsolvable, causing the player unnecessary annoyance and wasting a significant amount of their time. If there's a simple way to help prevent this, we should do it.

QuoteYou're right that it works the majority of the time, but there will always be examples that slip through even when it isn't the author's fault. Unsolvable levels have been a problem since the beginning of custom level creation; if we can introduce a way to ensure that levels are solvable, we should do it. And as others have pointed out, there are other benefits to ensuring a solving replay is provided/available (i.e. documenting the intended solution).

I want to emphasize again that this incident began with the level of one specific user. And I think most people here are already aware that this user has caused other issues in the past, even aside from releasing an unsolvable level this time. I've been on this forum for six, almost seven years now and I've never felt that unsolvable levels were a problem serious enough to require any sort of drastic measure. In fact, despite having played countless levels over the years, this is the first time I've ever encountered an unsolvable one.

While unsolvable levels may have been a problem at the very beginning of custom level creation, they have become extremely rare as time has passed and as level design culture has developed. The history of Lemmings custom level design is long, and of course various issues have come up along the way. But NeoLemmix has grown through many discussions and community consensus and from that the NeoLemmix philosophy was formed.

Whenever a new designer published levels containing elements considered "bad design," the community explained why those elements were problematic and offered advice on how to improve. We haven't ignored or disincentivized the levels just because that's the simple method. I think the same approach is sufficient here as well. We can simply continue advising authors on why maintaining a working replay is beneficial for everyone (documenting the intended solution, providing it when asked etc...) And in fact, kaywhyn has already done an excellent job of this in this very thread.

QuoteYes, exactly. If you fail to provide verification for your level, it should be marked as unverified.

QuoteAuthors who (for whatever reason) don't want to provide verification can choose not to, but their levels should then be marked as unverified. They would still be playable, and if it's a well-established author such as yourself, I imagine the "Unverified" marker wouldn't really matter so much.

For me the marker actually would matter. It's true that long-time forum members wouldn't doubt the solvability of my levels but new users join from time to time, and I would not want my levels to carry a label that might unintentionally suggest something is wrong with them. The word "unverified" can easily create the wrong impression, even if that's not the intention.

QuoteWhy not?

I prefer not to release all solutions at the same time I publish my levels because I enjoy seeing how far players can get without having the answers available from the start. For me, part of the fun of creating levels is watching people try to solve them on their own first and many players also enjoy the challenge of approaching a new pack without immediate spoilers. That said, whenever someone tells me they're stuck on a particular level and asks for the solution I always provide it. This has been the case for every pack I've ever released without exception.

Also, it's worth noting that on this forum, it's actually quite rare for authors to release full solution replays upfront. Only a small number of packs include solutions from the start. Most authors publish their levels without replays and later respond by confirming whether a player's submitted solutions are intended. My approach is very much in line with that long-standing community standard.

QuoteI suppose the counterpoint would be: if the author doesn't provide a replay, the player can simply choose not to play the level. This in itself might help to incentivise authors to provide solving replays.

I see where you're coming from but I feel that this would effectively turn into a disincentive for authors who choose not to include a replay. I think providing solution replays should remain entirely up to each author and they shouldn't be penalized in any way for their choice.

here're the solutions to my own levels
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRdHVcEym9k&list=PLYzhWZf5q4HtJ9Une6MN-vW_WY1tLo4iN&index=7

afaik, the impossible talisman that kaywhyn pre-tested wasn't because the author intentionally added an impossible talisman to their level, but rather because a bug fix ended up breaking the talisman. (Previously, Lemmings were able to step up higher than 6 pixels under very specific conditions.) Fortunately, that bug was fixed before the deadline, but since the level had been created before the fix, this issue occurred.

QuoteAnother idea might be to require the presence of a working .nxrp file in order to load a level. On first loading the level, we run the MRC for just that level and its detected replay (this would take milliseconds and would happen silently). If it passes, we can display "Verified Solvable" on the preview screen. If it fails or the replay is missing, we display "Unverified" instead.

To me, this sounds like: If you don't provide solution replays when publishing your level, your level will be given a "Unverified" label on the preview screen.

I don't intend to release all solutions at the same time I publish my levels. (For all my previous level packs, I've always released the solution replays after some time had passed.) So I also don't want my levels to be marked as "Unverified" just because I didn't include the solutions right away.

QuoteBetter yet, adapt the .nxlv format to contain replay data.

To me, this basically means the same thing: requiring authors to provide a solution together with the level, unless the replay data is somehow encrypted.

People on the Lemmings Forum have done a great job ensuring that their published levels remain solvable. The honor system has worked well so far.(outside of the broken talisman, it's just one person so I think it's more likely on their end) I believe we should continue trusting level authors to ensure their own levels are solvable, rather than enforcing something systematically.

Thanks for voting everyone and Crystal has officially joined the team!   Here're two crystal levels I've made so far.



Fairy in a Bottle


Lunatic Asylum


As I said eariler, I'll quietly continue developing the level pack for a while. Probably once I make enough levels, I can showcase some more levels. But it'll take some time!

I just try the four levels that were mentioned as impossible. (I downloaded the levels by following minim's link )
A Higher Platform and The Top Card are outright impossible. They are short by one or two skills. Statue of OilDrums is probably impossible as well. I did find a solution for The Lem Stairwell though.

Played through the contest levels 

No Way In Hell

The level looks simple with a minimal skillset, but the solution is well hidden. Watching a basher slide down a builder bridge is always satisfying!

It's Crazy Sports Day!

Nice level with two similar interesting tricks. First, you park a lemming with a blocker and later release him using a digger. Second, you temporarily store a lemming as a bomber and release him with a miner directly toward the exit.

Social Distancing

It's a cute little level where two lemmings work together back and forth to build the path and reach different exits. Since I thought the rule was tricky to satisfy without using buttons and locked exits, I really like that you managed it without them.

Help Me, Help Dune

Once you recognize the big miner extension everything falls into place nicely. I love how the two lemmings work in opposite directions at the same time, then eventually swap positions and reach the opposite exits.

Lem In The Box

Probably the hardest level in this contest... though still nothing too tricky. Diggers are the most valuable resource here, so picking up as many digger pickups as possible naturally leads you to the solution.

We Got Mad Lemmings 3 Lab Skills!

The well-placed miner was the key to solving the level. It single-handedly gathers the whole crowd and also creates the path to the exit.

@crane
Your solution is close enough. So close that I consider it intended

I didn't think the vote would be this close. I almost want to add both tilesets to the list.

Brick and Dirt are my two favorite tilesets, so I've used them the most here and there.
Fire, Marble, Rock, and Bubble were already decided to be used in this level pack.
There are also many Snow levels in my previous xmas-themed level pack.
So Pillar and Crystal are the two tilesets I've used the least so far.

Whichever tileset wins the vote, I'll use it for the second rank of this pack.
That means it will be used to create simple puzzles rather than complex ones, and levels where you explore wide landscapes with plenty of skills. Both tilesets are excellent for creating scenery.   Crystal feels more polished and mysterious, while Pillar gives off a more classic and traditional vibe.

Once the final voting result comes out, I'll make a level using the winning tileset and post its picture as a sneak-peek of the tribe. After that, I'll quietly continue developing the level pack for a while. 

@Crane
Hey thanks for the compliments and you found the intended solutions to both levels

@Crane   

I can give you(and someone else!) some hints on my levels:

R1: Pretty much every skill already has a fixed place to use, except for one or two - and those are the key to solving the level.

Spoiler

You should start by sending one worker to the left (give him a climber and a floater + use a blocker to contain the crowd). The worker's first task is to dig down. Where to dig is the main part of the puzzle and once you figure that out the rest of the solution will fall into place naturally.

R2: I thought my R2 was the easiest one. I crammed a bunch of new NeoLemmix quirks into it, so the unfamiliarities may have added up and made the level feel trickier than it actually is.

Spoiler

First, the two workers must meet on the lower floor and build a bridge together. After that, one of them should go back upstairs to complete his own task.

R3: This one is a bit difficult, I agree. First, you have to figure out which pick-ups you actually need. Some of them look easy to reach and seem to require only a few skills, but they're actually dead ends.

Spoiler

Near the starting area, there's a pit with a basher pick-up. You need that basher, but you can't let the crowd fall in and get stuck, meaning you must send only one worker to collect it, and then save him with a climber. You also need to collect one floater. There are two floater pick-ups in the level, but one is a red herring. The one in the top-right is the red herring.

I've added a poll

There're currently five L1 tribes: Brick, Bubble, Dirt, Fire, Rock.

I'd like to add one more tribe with one of the remaining L1 tilesets.

Which L1 tileset do you prefer to see in my in-dev pack?
I'm tossing up between crystal and pillar...

crystal - artistically beautiful and versatile, visually stand out
pillar - least used tileset in my levels - can explore new possibilities

Your vote will be appreciated