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Messages - Strato Incendus

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16
SuperLemmix / Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« on: November 29, 2023, 08:33:32 PM »
Congratulations to WillLem, and most of all, a big thank you for SuperLemmix 2.6! :thumbsup:

I actually waited for this version before creating further levels, even for those which don't require the new skills. That's due to the changed Shimmier behaviour of being able to climb up around corners. Since everyone knows by now how much I like using the Shimmier in my levels, it was therefore pointless to keep creating levels for version 2.5 when I knew the Shimmier behaviour would change in version 2.6, so my replays would break anyway. In the long term, though, I think this changed Shimmier behaviour (in line with Lemmings 2: The Tribes) will be for the better, as it creates opportunities for even more skill interactions, and thereby, more complex puzzles.

17
Just a quick remark that I am still planning to do an official conversion eventually - I've merely halted that process somewhere in the Professional rank, until WillLem officially announces the first "stable version" of SuperLemmix (SLX 3.0), so that I know the physics will no longer change in any fundamental way in the near future. For example, things like being able to assign Blockers to Swimmers. Even though World Tour doesn't feature any of the newer skills (Shimmiers, Jumpers, Sliders, Laserers etc.), new interactions of older skills like Blocker and Swimmer may still create new solutions - or backroutes.

Simultaneously, the reintroduction of radiation and slowfreeze has allowed me to bring back some of my old original solutions from Old-Formats Lemmings World Tour.
I assume @jkapp76 might not necessarily know what these are intended to look like, given that most people nowadays probably play Lemmings World Tour in New-Formats NeoLemmix. ;)

In the meantime, feel free to play this version. :D Just be aware that I can't really say anything about the intended solutions in this one, since some modifications may have been made by jkapp76 in order to make the levels playable in SuperLemmix (specifically, on any level that requires Stoners in NeoLemmix, and therefore requires Freezers in SuperLemmix).

18
Non-Lemmings Gaming / Re: What video game(s) are you playing at the moment?
« on: November 18, 2023, 11:21:41 AM »
Given that Lemmings was originally marketed as an "action puzzle", I wonder if anyone here has ever come into contact with the Mirror's Edge games?
I discovered them one year ago, and are currently replaying them again - because replay value is certainly something they have going for them! :thumbsup:

They're definitely more on the "action" than the "puzzle" side, but I'd kind of say they combine the best of both worlds:
During the initial playthrough, when you still need to figure out the path through a level, you will be busier with the "puzzle" side;
then, you're organically incentivised to do a re-run (not in a ham-fisted Yoko Taro-like way :P), because you'll naturally want to improve your performance in getting through the level.
So the second time, when you know the level better, you can focus more on the "action" side. It's one of the few games literally made for speedrunners.

Basically, imagine you had a Lemmings level and its rerun, both being an X-of-everything level; but the first time, you mess around trying out whatever you want; the second time, you put a self-imposed time limit on the whole thing, trying to get through it as fast and efficiently as possible.


I assume Mirror's Edge won't appeal to the puzzle purists, because execution difficulty is definitely a major component.
However, where in Lemmings, execution difficulty is accidental and mostly unwanted, in Mirror's Edge, it's an intended part of the challenge - just like if you were doing Parkour for real.

The "accidental" and usually "unwanted" part of Mirror's Edge is the gun combat, which slows you down and eliminates most of your movement options, i.e. does the exact opposite of what the game otherwise wants you to do (just like execution difficulty in the original Lemmings games hindered the puzzle aspect). That's why they removed gun combat from the sequel, Mirror's Edge: Catalyst, which only has martial-arts combat. However, even that often still ends up being clunky.

While many trash the story of both the original 2008 game and Catalyst, and it's certainly nothing to write home about, I actually found myself more invested in at least some of the events (especially in Catalyst) than in other games that attempt to go for a more complex and elaborate story, but fail at establishing a connection with the characters.



I'd sum up the basic idea as a combination of Tomb Raider, Spider-Man, and Temple Run 8-) :

You're doing fast parkour puzzles in a metropolis while being chased by cops and private security.

I have only found a few other games that attempt anything similar, but none of them quite come close:
- The Dying Light games and Cyberpunk 2077
(though I prefer the aesthetic of Mirror's Edge over both, since "dark and gritty" has been done to death at this point, and some even refer to Mirror's Edge as cyberpunk, too; I've discovered it by, and hence have always been referring to it, as "Grimbright").

- And then, I recently saw somebody randomly flash in gameplay of Neon White, which looks to me as if somebody had taken the abstract level shapes from the Mirror's Edge DLC time trials (where you're jumping around somewhere in the clouds) and mashed it together with The Legend of Zelda. :D

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SuperLemmix Bugs & Suggestions / Re: [SUG] New skill - Ballooner
« on: November 13, 2023, 06:55:12 PM »
Okay, then I’d also advocate for leaving it as it is. :D

I kind of foresee player complaints if somebody makes a level where everyone has to be assigned a Ballooner out of the hatch, rather than them all being pre-assigned.

Then again, I’m not a fan of levels with splat-height hatches, where you have to spend time assigning Floaters while simultaneously trying to build a splatform with some worker lemming. Usually, these levels only require a certain number of lemmings to be assigned Floaters (in this case, Ballooners) before the splatform is finished.

In contrast, I mainly use splat-height hatches if breaking the fall factors into the main solution somehow — rather than just being thrown in there as an additional challenge.

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SuperLemmix Bugs & Suggestions / Re: [SUG] New skill - Ballooner
« on: November 08, 2023, 04:03:27 PM »
Oh, I hadn't even thought of that possibility... :forehead: Since I indeed thought of them as comparable to Shimmiers.

If I recall correctly, it's not possible to assign a Ballooner to a Faller, since the lemming needs to stand somewhere to blow up the balloon.
I was just thinking of level possibilities where, instead of having to assign Floaters or Gliders to Fallers right out of a hatch, you'd have to assign Ballooners to save them.
But then again, I've never felt the need to do that on any level thus far, since I hadn't even thought of Ballooners doing anything straight after coming out of a hatch.

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They can, however, be assigned to pre-placed lems (as with Shimmiers).

That is the important part, because it allows for lots of "get the Ballooner down" solutions, involving interactions with Grenaders, Spearers, and Laserers.

21
Strato, from this topic:

Quote from: Strato Incendus
you could even assign another Shimmier to make the lemming shimmy back the way he came. This can be useful, since bouncing a Shimmier with a Blocker usually requires some fiddly setup (otherwise, the lemming will easily just shimmy over the Blocker's head). And since Shimmiers don't turn around automatically when hitting regular walls (luckily!), we can use tricks like these to turn them around instead (shimmy, climb, slide back down, shimmy back).

Hi WillLem, I think you misunderstood my post. ;) Here’s the full context:

Great, thanks for implementing this, WillLem! :thumbsup: I look forward to seeing how it turns out in practice.

Quote from: WillLem
The exception to this is if the lem is also a Slider, in which case they slide down, dangle, and ultimately fall facing the opposite direction to their approach.

For added utility, at that point you could even assign another Shimmier to make the lemming shimmy back the way he came. This can be useful, since bouncing a Shimmier with a Blocker usually requires some fiddly setup (otherwise, the lemming will easily just shimmy over the Blocker's head). And since Shimmiers don't turn around automatically when hitting regular walls (luckily!), we can use tricks like these to turn them around instead (shimmy, climb, slide back down, shimmy back).

By “turning a Shimmier around with another Shimmier”, I was referring to the case where he turns a corner, climbs up, then slides down and dangles. That’s why I wrote at that point, we could assign another Shimmier (to make him shimmy back again).

In short: This was just me endorsing the turning-upward-corners behaviour of Shimmiers that are also Climbers.

I actually do NOT think it should be possible to simply turn a Shimmier around while shimmying by assigning another Shimmier. This is indeed one of the “broken” properties of the Walker. The reason I’m fine with it for the Walker is the Walker hardly does anything else, aside from cancelling skills. But Shimmiers can already be used to cancel skills, just like Jumpers. If Shimmiers can also turn around lemmings now (even if only in certain circumstances), they’d arguably become even more powerful than Walkers.

I assume it was an honest mistake, but by misunderstanding my post by only quoting a very specific part of it (“quote mining”), you made it look as if I held a position I don’t hold, and now, a whole thread has followed from it. :evil:

22
Just a little update: I’ve revised the first half of the pack (ranks 1 and 2), based on kaywhyn’s feedback from testing, and sent him the new version.

After the second half has been vetted, too, I think the pack should be ready for release. But I can’t put a date on that yet. Even if kaywhyn plays through the remaining levels quickly, I don’t know how fast I’ll be in fixing them. :evil:

23
NeoLemmix Main / Re: First Note: Don´T Make it
« on: October 08, 2023, 07:52:03 AM »
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can´t make nothing about with this diktatorship

We voted on this, so if anything, it’s “the tyranny of the many”. :P
Also, given you’ve been here since 2011, the vote definitely took place at a time when you could have taken part in it… ;)

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NeoLemmix Main / Re: First Note: Don´T Make it
« on: October 07, 2023, 07:33:25 PM »
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What everi. Its seems you not like me and im like you.

I have nothing against you. ;) I’m merely trying to make you aware of why New Formats NeoLemmix has the mechanics it has.

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BTW Crane will kill you when you ruin his level.

Well, I’m not ruining anyone’s solutions here. :D But there’s obviously a difference between a player breaking a level by finding a backroute, and the engine developers breaking a bunch of levels by changing something about the general physics of the engine.

Some players, in turn, are also mad at level creators, when the creator “breaks” their solution by fixing a backroute.
However, all that demonstrates is that this solution was never an intended one in the first place.
And especially when somebody is pre-release-testing a pack, they kind of have to expect that the level creator will repeatedly break their solutions, until as many backroutes as possible have been fixed.

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I´ll personally loadedd Neolleminhs 12. 5 with current best. Im not want we make change here.

As I’ve stated, direct drop into exits has not been an intended part of NeoLemmix for years. If it somehow reappeared now, that is a bug / glitch, not an intended behaviour. And solutions should not rely on bugs or glitches.

To give you a similar case, in Lemmings Open Air I originally used the old Glider behaviour to have a Glider jump on top of a Stacker’s stack, by assigning a Shimmier to him right in front of the stack. When Glider physics were changed while Lemmings Open Air was in development, I had to adapt the solutions of those levels.

That actually was a new physics change. Direct drop into exits is not; it will merely be a bugfix.

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I did Super  Lemmings Demopack. I´ll knew its full amount bugs, so i let its shorth. I´ll see it laterly totally broken. So i´ll want make levels neolemmings.

This is why WillLem warned us that SuperLemmix is still in development. :8(): Hence, I’ve halted my development of any SuperLemmix levels. Among others, because Shimmier physics are about to change for version 2.6, with shimmying Climbers being able to turn around upward corners. If I create solutions where the Shimmier still behaves in the previous manner (i.e., like in NeoLemmix), I would already know now that I’ll have to adapt those solutions later.

Yes, NeoLemmix is stable, and will not undergo any fundamental physics changes anymore — while in SuperLemmix, a lot of the intended physics haven’t even been decided on yet (including things such as assigning Blockers to Swimmers etc.).
However, “stable”, at least for the time being, as Proxima has outlined, does not mean “no more bugfixes if bugs are discovered,” and direct drop into exits, as people have told you, is a bug — not an intended behaviour in NeoLemmix.

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Serisolusöy talkinmg about. Most we who are make large pack don´t want those replays got broken. You only can imagine 600 levels one by one. I did once and its take me 2 weeks and 12 hours per day about.

As the creator of Lemmings World Tour, the largest pack in existence, I can assure you, I totally know this from experience — I don’t need to imagine it. ;) I’ve first faced this issue during the conversion of the pack from Old to New Formats, as explained in my previous post; now, I’m facing it again with the conversion to SuperLemmix. Mainly because of all the levels where Stoners need to be replaced with Freezers.

Then again, for reasons stated above, I’ve halted all development of my SuperLemmix content until WillLem gives the official “go!”, combined with the assurance that physics will remain stable for a while. That includes conversion of my existing packs to SuperLemmix. Right now, I totally understand WillLem needs the freedom to decide the physics of SuperLemmix as he sees fit, independently of existing content — precisely in order to avoid larger physics changes later, when there will already be more existing SuperLemmix content.

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Animation bygs is one idea whih most advance player use. Its seems bug, but IMO its extreme technique.

That depends on your definition of “an advanced player”. I assume you already honed your Lemmings skills back with the original Lemmings games, if you’ve been playing that long.

NeoLemmix in particular, however, has deliberately moved away from the original DMA Lemmings games in quite a few ways. And “animation bugs”, or deceptive elements in general (manual steel, hidden traps and exits etc.), are precisely those elements that the NeoLemmix community by and large has grown to frown upon. Then again, those are not features a player can use — only a level designer — so they have nothing to do with level-solving skill.

The behaviour you’re referring to, with oh-noers being able to exit in midair, is not merely an animation bug, but an actual (albeit accidental) part of game physics. It’s something that currently seems to work, but it is not consistent with player expectations — if players normally constantly experience that regular Fallers can’t exit in mid-air.

If I remember correctly, back when that discussion was ongoing (see below), we briefly considered whether Floaters or Gliders that are turned into Bomber or Stoners (=oh-noers) should still be able to exit in midair, since they are still Floaters or Gliders, respectively. And then, the reasoning was that they shouldn’t, because they need to drop their parachutes in order to put their hands on their heads to oh-no. :D

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It was purely accidental that oh-noers were overlooked when other states were banned from exiting; this was fixed in the next update after it was noticed. Much later, someone noticed that stoner oh-noers could still exit because they hadn't been specifically prevented; this was also immediately fixed.

Thanks for the context, Proxima! ;)

I think I remember trying something like this out. But if I recall correctly, I was trying to use the oh-noer state to save a lemming from splatting, by making an oh-noer fall and land in the exit before splatting. This was actually on solid terrain, though, as far as I remember. Perhaps it was just something about oh-noers being unable to splat.

Either way, it did not work, because I discovered that oh-noers can’t even fall far enough to cover splat height before they explode. So that solution never came into existence in the first place. :evil:

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NeoLemmix Main / Re: First Note: Don´T Make it
« on: October 07, 2023, 01:40:44 PM »
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Did you can speak Native finninhs?

No, I’m German, but there’s also quite a few other Finnish users on this forum. ;)

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Im not want fix my all pack again with some reason. I did once my 2nd pack, because 1st pack glider routes changed. This fix take me 34 hours.

This sounds like you built your first packs for a different engine than NeoLemmix, or built them for NeoLemmix many years ago (say, version 1.43, like my pack Lemmicks, which was deliberately made for that engine). And now that you’re trying to port them to New Formats NeoLemmix, you find it behaves differently?

Because there are indeed quite a few mechanical changes NeoLemmix has undergone over the years:
- level sides changed from solid to deadly
- then later, with the shift from Old to New Formats, the ceiling switches from solid to deadly, too (because of the Shimmier)
- the Glider physics changed because of the Shimmier
- and, among others, also direct drop into exits having been disabled. But as I’ve explained, this has been the case for a long time. So if you need to adapt your levels to this now, I wonder how old these levels are? ???

This can seem like a lot to deal with if you have to adapt existing levels to all of these changes at once. To some extent, I brought such a scenario on myself when converting Lemmings World Tour to New Formats — because I had insisted on first completing it for Old Formats, when the community had already started shifting to New Formats.

Direct drop into exits, meanwhile, wasn’t even possible in Old Formats anymore. (In fact, my Lemmings World Tour level “Slide it in” relies on direct drop NOT being possible, and that was already the case in Old Formats.)

Hence, I don’t understand yet why this suddenly causes a problem to any of your levels. ??? I see you’ve been on the forums since 2011, so you might still have some levels for an engine even older than NeoLemmix 1.43. Or even for an engine preceding NeoLemmix (Lemmini? SuperLemmini? Lemmix?). But that’s the problem with using several engines: There is no guarantee of cross-platform compatibility.

Perhaps direct drop became possible again by accident in a recent / experimental version of NeoLemmix? Are you talking about the experimental version of NeoLemmix, featuring the new objects? Because in the latest stable version of NeoLemmix, I’m pretty certain it is NOT possible for non-Floaters or non-Gliders to enter an exit in mid-air.

If this is the case: That’s the reason why we’re advised not to create packs for experimental versions of any engine yet. ;)

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NeoLemmix Main / Re: First Note: Don´T Make it
« on: October 07, 2023, 10:43:17 AM »
Again, I'm sorry to say I struggle to understand your posts. ???

I don't spend much time on Discord, so I don't know which debate this is taken from. I'm only fairly certain that so-called "direct-drop" behaviour (i.e., non-Floaters and non-Gliders being able to enter an exit in midair by falling onto the trigger) has not been an intended mechanic in NeoLemmix for a very long time. This is not a recent update; it has been the default for NeoLemmix for at least as long as I've been on the forums (i.e., over five years).

SuperLemmix, in contrast, as far as I recall, actively reintroduced direct-drop behaviour; partly in order to set itself apart from NeoLemmix, partly just because WillLem liked it, I guess.
So if you want to make or preserve levels that require direct drops into the exit by non-Floaters and/or non-Gliders, the SuperLemmix level editor should be able to open them.

Nuke solutions don't require direct drop to work, as long as there is some steel chamber underneath the area to-be-nuked, which the lemmings can then fall into without destroying it by bombing. That steel also acts as terrain inside the exit trigger area, so the nuking lemmings can enter that exit, even as Oh-Noers.



Also, who is "we Lemmings veterans"?
Most of us are indeed long-time NeoLemmix users, too, and I don't recall any other NeoLemmix players criticising the lack of direct drop recently. (Well, except for WillLem, perhaps, but he just went ahead and built his own fork of NeoLemmix, by creating SuperLemmix ;) .) It has nothing to do with whether or not somebody is a "noob".

Frankly, when it comes to nuke solutions, most of them I have seen I don't consider particularly inventive.
It's hard to spot the first time you encounter it, but soon you learn to identify typical terrain shapes and/or skill-panel setups that make it pretty obvious that only a nuke solution can work for the last part of a given level. And once you've learned how to spot it, I find this trick gets old pretty quickly. Kind of like hidden traps or manual steel. :evil: Which is typically something "noobs" like to play around with at first (myself included).

So if anything, I'd actually say a newer player or level designer might care more about direct drop and nuke solutions. :devil: Because the first time you see it, you think, "Haha, isn't this funny? Other players will never be able to figure this out!" Only then do you discover that most people on the forums have been there and done that already - and that's part of the reason why NeoLemmix got rid of it, I would wager. Because it's a feature that tempts new level designers to try the same old "gags" in their solutions over and over again, while more experienced players might think that direct drop and nuke solutions have already been done to death. By design: If every new level creator tries this stuff, it's like the same joke being told over and over again, only by a different person every time.

27
Lemmings Main / Re: Most Crap Lemmings themes?
« on: September 22, 2023, 05:01:47 PM »
ONML 4! :evil: Well, again depends on by what system you count the tracks. The one that sounds like a cr*ppy version of "Smoke on the Water".

Arty was disappointed I didn't make a rock version of that song for Lemmings World Tour. Then again, he also said he only liked the DOS version of it - meanwhile, the one I'm most familiar with, and also the one I dislike the most, is the Mac / Amiga version.

"How much is that doggie?" indeed also is quite hard to listen to in the Amiga rendition - however, that's mainly because of the badly imitated dog-bark sounds.
The melody of the song is still nice, so I was able to create a much mellower, somewhat "jazzy" version of it for Lemmings World Tour.

28
Site Discussion / Re: Why this site enter me always off?
« on: September 09, 2023, 08:32:44 AM »
In his profile, it says MASTER-88 is from Finland. ;) Then again, there’s quite a few more Fins on this forum, too.

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NeoLemmix Main / Re: Longest custom level?
« on: August 25, 2023, 05:16:01 PM »
Mine is definitely “The Grand Puzzle”, the last level from Lemmings World Tour. Most solutions clock in at around 13-14 minutes.

Also, at a width of 4000 pixels, it’s definitely the “longest” / “widest” level ever made. 8-)

Quote from: MASTER-88
Use enlight tool you can see here is much more hidden traps too.

Now I finally have the confirmation that what you mean when you say “enlighten” is clear-physics mode ;P.

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Question: Won't this change allow a cloned Fencer to go down the tunnel of the original Fencer (just like a Basher)? Because those should always only have one pixel of height difference on the slope.

I'm not saying that’s a bad thing — I'm just pointing it out. Because so far, cloning Fencers was only useful if the lemming stood in between two walls on more or less flat ground. Cloning a Fencer within his own tunnel, meanwhile, so far always leads to the immediate cancellation of the cloned Fencer.

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