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Topics - Strato Incendus

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46
My level "Check mate" from Pit Lems was considered the hardest level in the pack by nin10doadict when he let's-played it. Nevertheless, the level has remained in a comparatively low position, early in the third of five ranks, because it had one decisive facilitating thing going on: Once you had worked out a particular approach, you could just continue repeating that approach across the entire map to solve the level.


Check mate (Pit Lems, WTF 04)

In contrast, I have just finished creating a level where, after having identified a certain approach, this will get you somewhere - but continuing with this same strategy all the way to the end will cause the level to fail.

This inability to switch strategies and continuing with the old one is also known in psychology as perseveration.

Here is the level in question (replay included in the attachment).


The bee

Solution (click to show/hide)

I've explained the solution in the spoiler above, because I'm not certain whether this level is 100% proof at enforcing this yet. That's why I've provided the replay.

I'm pretty sure there are other custom levels also using this strategy to lead the player astray. Can you name any? ;)

Also, maybe our Finnish users might understand the reference this level is making. ;) After all, it's about someone whose name is very closely related to Lemmings...

47
NeoLemmix already comes pre-equipped with the original Lemmings- and ONML tunes. Of course, several people also like to use the tunes from Lemmings 3D and Lemmings 2: The Tribes on a regular basis - but so far, they haven't been part of the official download. Since music is usually provided along with individual packs, if several people use e.g. the Lemmings 3D tracks, but name them differently, this leads to redunancy in the music folder, because both will provide the tracks again, even though they're technically only required once.

So maybe we could simplify this by including the L3D- and L2 tunes into the standard NeoLemmix download as well? Then everyone could refer to these tracks by the same name when assigning them to levels. With graphic sets, we've already done a good job at removing duplicate pieces - so I think it would only make sense to do the same for frequently-used music tracks. :)

48
I've noticed that sometimes, individual skills on the skill panel will not show a regular lemming with green hair and a blue shirt, but either an athlete (blue hair, green shirt), or even a zombie, should zombie lemmings appear on the level.

If this were only specifically applying to permanent skills, i.e. Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, and Disarmer, I'd understand. It's somewhat strange anyway, because for several years now, the player actually never gets to see a regular-coloured Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, or Disarmer - assigning any of these skills to a lemming will immediately reverse the colour scheme between hair and clothing.

I only consciously noticed this difference while testing my pack for 1.43, "Lemmicks", because back in version 1.43, athletes didn't change colours yet. ;)

However, now in New Formats, the recolouring of the lemmings on the skill panel seems to be arbitrary, not restricted to athletic skills, but I've also seen it happen with Walkers, Blockers, or Cloners. The Cloner is an interesting case, because one of the two lemmings looked like a regular lemming, the other one like an athlete.

Is there some pattern behind this that I simply don't understand, i.e. is this intendedl? ;) I wasn't sure, that's why I hesitated to report this as a bug immediately. If it is one, please move this post to the Bugs subforum (most likely referring to the player rather than the editor).

Since it seems to occur arbitrarily, I unfortunately can't provide any specific steps to reproduce this either. So this is just a rough survey on whether anybody else has noticed this phenomenon?

I'm talking about the latest stable version 12.6.5.

49
NeoLemmix Main / Advanced Blocker tricks
« on: October 20, 2019, 10:28:41 PM »
As a beginner, you tend to do everything with Blockers: The crowd always needs to be contained between two Blockers before you can even start planning the solution.
As an intermediate player, you get used to all the methods of crowd containment without any Blockers: Basher / Miner / Digger / Bomber pits, sealing off shafts with Builders or Platformers, Stackers and anticipating how many Lemmings will slip by, Stoner cells which you can only free the crowd from with Stackers, etc.
As a professional, also when it comes to the levels you design yourself, you might discard containing the crowd alltogether and instead move more and more towards mere flow control and timing-based solutions.

And then, finally, suddenly, the Blockers start popping up on the skill panel again. But they're almost never supposed to be used in the way regular players are used to.

I find myself having the most trouble with solutions where levels provide Blockers, but at first glance, it always seems like not a single one of them can be used, because there don't seem to be enough opportunities to easily free them again. The Builder may be the most powerful classic Lemmings skill, but the Blocker is definitely the most complicated one.

So I'd like to collect all the advanced tricks here involving Blockers. I'm trying to get back into Nepster Lems at the moment, and often whenever I compare my solutions or attempts at solutions to IchoTolot's walkthrough on YouTube, there are tricks involved which I wouldn't even have considered in my wildest dreams. It brings back some memories of SubLems and Lemmings Migration, when there are certain levels which you have no chance of solving, simply because you weren't aware that a certain approach is even possible from a pure game-mechanics standpoint.


I'll therefore try to somewhat categorise the Blocker tricks I am aware of, but I'm certain this list isn't complete, so please add to it! ;)

The Fake Blocker (click to show/hide)
Passing through Blockers (click to show/hide)
Turning around on Oh-Noers (click to show/hide)
Touching the trigger area (click to show/hide)

Any further Blocker-related tricks I should be aware of? ???

50


One year, one month, and one day after its initial release, here's the New-Formats version of Lemmings World Tour at last - the largest pack currently available for NeoLemmix!
This remastered version has had all levels adapted that originally featured radiation or slowfreeze.
I still encourage anyone who's interested to try out the original version for Old Formats, which I will continue to maintain. It includes all levels the way they were originally intended to be!

A huge upside of the New-Formats version is the increased stability. The intense mixing of graphic sets in this pack led to more or less frequent crashes in Old Formats when loading up a level, requiring a simple but inconvenient restart of NeoLemmix 10.13. I have not seen this happen in the New-Formats version yet! :thumbsup:

The attached ZIP-Folder at the bottom of this post includes the custom success- and failure jingles, all sprite-set recolourings (including WillLem's Lemminas, which now appear on a couple of levels), as well as strato_generalmd, my modified version of the general tileset that used to exist in Old Formats. It contains some recolourings of various objects, Colorful Arty's rain and snow animations, as well as pre-placed builder staircases.
If you extract the folder in your core NeoLemmix folder, the styles and levels should automatically end up in their correct respective places.

This is the updated version of the graphic set and the pack for NeoLemmix 12.10.0.

My Instruments tileset is part of the official styles download now, as well as nin10doadict's cattrap.


God gave Rock 'n Roll to you*

The music pack can be found here.
It consists of my self-recorded rock/metal versions of all the standard Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings tunes, except for ONML 04 and the special graphics tracks (Beast, Menacing, and Awesome).
All instruments were played / recorded and all tracks mixed by myself.



For everyone new to this pack: Lemmings World Tour is based on the idea of a Lemmings band touring the world. Every main level is inspired by a song title, with the author line being used to credit the artist who originally performed the song (not necessarily the composer ;) ).

Hence, all the music is played with real instruments, including the success and failure jingles. The levels also depict as many different places in various countries across the globe. Thus, many level titles will refer to a song title and a geographical location at the same time. You will also usually find the flag of the respective country on each of those levels (examples see below).

This pack consists of a whopping 320 levels - 40 for each of the 8 ranks.
These ranks are named: Noisemaker, Amateur, Professional, Diva, Rockstar, Legend, Encore, and Groupie


It also ends with the largest level in existence - one that is too large to even be created with or properly displayed by the New-Formats editor, but was converted from Old-Formats directly, together with the entire pack.
It is strongly advised to switch off the high-quality minimap when playing the very last level (Groupie 40) - game fluency will improve drastically that way. ;)

With that out of the way, let's take a closer look at the ranks! ;)

NOISEMAKER
This rank is all about teaching you essential mechanics of the game and vital, but maybe somewhat obscure skill tricks - rather than the usual X-of-everything levels you might find on the lower ranks in other packs! Pay close attention to the pre-level texts, they can give you essential hints! ;) Also, beware the occasional troll level. There is a certain infamous, lemming-eating Octopus hiding on this rank, and one of the two levels shown below requires the lemmings to dive in a fountain. Sometimes, this pack will put visual aesthetics over strict, mechanical fairness, but it is the exception rather than the rule.
Noisemaker Intended Trick List (click to show/hide)

Vegas Lights

Grenade

AMATEUR
On these levels, the skills are grouped thematically (upward-moving, downward-moving, destructive, creative etc.), and the more advanced objects get introduced, such as pre-assigned skills and pre-placed lemmings, splitters, force fields, and teleporters. More landscape-like levels start occuring towards the end of the rank.
Amateur Intended Trick List (click to show/hide)

Shipping up to Boston

Georgia on my mind

PROFESSIONAL
The first levels of this rank are going to test what you've learned about the skills so far, requiring several of the previously-introduced tricks, but now without prior announcement! ;) Also be prepared to navigate some pretty huge cities, as you're playing in more and more important locations around the world.

Moskau, Moskau

Streets of London

DIVA
Now you can really start showing off your skills - but don't get too cocky yet! ;) There are still much harder songs coming...

Weiße Rosen aus Athen

Barcelona

ROCKSTAR
If you want to play on the big stage, you must master how to control the crowd. Can you hold them back when you have to, and make them move when you want them to?

Streets of Philadelphia

Cold Turkey

LEGEND
The songs on this rank will be remembered for all eternity. In other words: Probably just as long as solving these levels might take you! :P

Ganglem Style

The Phantom of the Opera

ENCORE
Here you can find levels from my preceding, Old-Formats packs (Paralems, Pit Lems, and Lemmicks) that also were named after song titles. The only one missing is "Turn this club around!" from Lemmicks. Without that one, there were exactly fourty of them, so I thought they would be a good fit here. They were not selected for their quality, though - but indeed mainly for their titles. ;) So definitely expect these to be easier than the previous ranks, but that might be a welcome relief after the hard stuff! ;) Also, due to the absence of gimmicks, the Lemmicks levels usually have completely different solutions compared to their first appearance.

We are the Lempions (Pit Lems)

All along the watchtower (Lemmicks)

GROUPIE
These levels were created by Colorful Strato and incendoadict: I identified the signature level-design features of most of the active content creators, and then built a level for each of them pretending I were them! ;) Some people have even had several levels dedicated to them - and no, the "author" line is not being used to spoil that for you. Which level was inspired by whom, that is something you'll have to discover for yourself! :P Many of these levels are still named after songs, in which case the author line will mention the performing artist, just like before. Other levels will have non-song names, and therefore no author line either.

Bon appetit!

Take a Byte

Have you taken a guess at which user inspired which Groupie level? ;) Then you can check whether you're correct right here:
Groupie rank level list (click to show/hide)

I hope the release of this pack to New Formats can bridge the gap between very easy and very hard packs a little! ;) It's currently rather difficult to find "intermediate" content. The radiation- and slowfreeze levels from Old Formats could be replicated in New Formats to varying degree - some solutions might be more interesting, some more dull than in Old Formats.

Finally, I have tested each level in the New-Formats version of this pack at least once, but with 320 levels in total, there's always a remaining chance that I've missed something that doesn't work as intended.
So please, report any issues you find, just like you would report any backroutes!
;)


And with that, all I have to say is:
The stage is yours! ;)


*The red Stratocaster from the Instruments tileset is a Wikimedia Commons picture created by Johan Förberg.

51
Level Design / Artistic levels in Lemmings 3D
« on: October 17, 2019, 10:21:08 AM »
As you might know, I've come to fancy Colorful Arty's level-building style of "painting" with level tiles, and I've done so quite a lot on my pack Lemmings World Tour. Now that I'm working on, among others, a NeoLemmix pack trying to emulate Lemmings 3D, I'm thinking about to what extent these "artistic"-looking levels fit into the overarching theme of the pack. In other words: Can a pack still feel like Lemmings 3D (featuring the characteristic tilesets, such as Candy / Jelly-Belly), when it includes (too many) artistic levels?

I know there definitely are some artistic-looking levels in Lemmings 3D, where the DMA / Psychgnosis creators themselves "painted" with level tiles. The lines between the various tilesets are also much less strict than in classic Lemmings or ONML, as for example the level backgrounds are interchanged liberally between tilesets. For example, "Away Team" features a space background, but neither belongs to the Alien nor the Digital tileset, but is counted as a Lego level (the style from "Attack of the 50 Ft. Lemmings" or, most famously, "That's the name of the game").

That said, I have never managed to actually complete Lemmings 3D in its entirety, so I might be missing some levels. Here are the ones I am aware of that definitely use tilesets to create some sort of recognisable, "realistic" structure, rather than just an abstract level shape:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That's 30 levels, so almost a third of all levels in total, including the practice levels! :lem-mindblown:

I guess almost all of the Medieval levels count, because they almost always feature castles, rather than merely using the stone tiles for abstract level shapes.

Therefore, I'd figure that artistic levels are more than fitting in custom Lemmings 3D levels (or custom NeoLemmix levels alluding to Lemming 3D, like in my case) - but with the restrictions of sticking to certain stiles, like Medieval, Egyptian, or Digital. Wild tileset mixing to get as close as possible to an actual location in the world is probably not possible inside the L3D editor anyway, and hence, in NeoLemmix, it would step too far beyond the limits of Lemmings 3D to still evoke that feeling of playing Lemmings 3D.

52
This is something that namida told me would most likely not be too hard to implement - it's more of a question how much demand there would be for such a feature:

In level files, there are a bunch of things we can adjust for that particular level only, by simply writing them into the text file - the background, the music, also things that don't have editor support yet, like pre-level texts or moving background objects.

What I'm suggesting here is: Let's add the background for the level title menu to this! ;)
Ideally separately for level menu, pre-level text, and post-level text, so that each of these could have separate backgrounds as well.


So far, you can pick a custom menu background for each pack by inserting a file named background.png into the level folder. namida told me it might also work on a rank-by-rank basis, i.e. separate menu backdrops for each rank, but not for each level yet.

Why would we need that? Well, namida has told me we have images of the Lemmings 3D menu backgrounds - those are different for each tileset. We could probably use them in NeoLemmix, but they would have to vary on a level-by-level basis to fulfill their purpose.

Since a lot of people have made custom levels featuring references to Lemmings 3D, or using tilesets that have equivalents in Lemmings 3D (such as Medieval, Circus, Egyptian, Candy etc.), I thought maybe others here would like to customise the menu backgrounds for individual levels, too? ;)

On a more general level, this would also enable level designers to show any type of image as a pre- or post-level screen, without any text added to it.

This might come in handy when words would give away too much - or for tutorial purposes, like in the new NeoLemmix introduction pack IchoTolot is working on. Showing e.g. a screenshot of a specific skill interaction as a pre-level screen might make it easier to convey this knowledge to a new player than describing it just verbally.

Of course, we could also decide to create graphic-set backgrounds for some of the other, non-L3D-graphic sets, if this feature gets implemented. We already have level backgrounds for the original Lemmings tilesets anyway, so we could either use those backgrounds or create similar ones to have specific menu screens for Dirt, Marble, Fire, Pillar, Crystal, and so on.

According to namida, this presumably wouldn't be too much effort - the question is: Would you want to use or at least try out such a feature? ;)

I for one know I will, for sure! :thumbsup:

53
In Development / Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll
« on: October 13, 2019, 05:35:03 PM »


Lemmings Open Air is halfway done - and the main reason why development on that front isn't going faster is because I keep getting ideas for levels that simply don't fit into the classic tilesets.
Lemmings Hall of Fame, meanwhile, can't really make any progress without the Jumper. I've created some levels for it, but as recent discussions have shown, the Jumper seems to be quite essential for creating that authentic Lemmings 2: The Tribes feeling which that pack is going for.

So this is where all my other level ideas go, especially those which involve tileset mixing, because that is sort-of a no-go for the other two packs I'm working on, albeit not completely inevitable.

This pack, in contrast, is going to mix tilesets in a very specific way for a very specific reason...


When the Lems go marching in


True colors


The internet is for p0rn


Welcome to my nightmare


Scratching the ceiling of the world


Cake to bake


Analogous to Lemmings Hall of Fame taking Lemmings 2: The Tribes to NeoLemmix, Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll is going to be a NeoLemmix version of Lemmings 3D! :D

First of all, that means self-recorded rock/metal versions of all the Lemmings 3D tracks this time.
8-)

Second, as you can see, I'm using several tilesets revolving around the same theme to get as close as possible to the graphic sets used in Lemmings 3D.
They don't really seem to have universally agreed-upon names, but I'm going to call them:

1. Army: L3 Biolab, L2 Beach, L2 Medieval - for the "Polar" subtype: L2 Polar, Raymanni Snow, ONML Snow / Christmas
2. Classic ("Lemgo"): L2 Circus, L2 Shadow, Arty Lego, namida Abstract, namida Psychedelic, Raymanni Toys
3. Candy: namida Candy, Raymanni Food, davidz Candy
4. Medieval: L2 Medieval, IchoTolot Castle, mobius tanCastle, Gronkling Slime, GigaLem TreeMod
5. Circus: L2 Circus, L2 Beach, Raymanni Circus
6. Outdoor (Maze): L2 Outdoor, L2 Highland, Jaimie House (Speedy Eggbert), GigaLem TreeMod, ONML Brick
7. Digital: Raymanni Cyberspace, Sonic Cybertrack / Technobase, namida Circuit, Gronkling Cyber, Gronkling Minimal, Jarv Future...
8. Egyptian: L2 Egyptian, L3 Egyptian, L2 Beach, namida Desert, GigaLem DesertMod, orig Pillar
9. Space (Alien): L2 Space, L2 Shadow, namida Space, plom Metro, Gronkling Minimal, (Ex-Gronkling) Electric, SQron Turrican / Alien, Raymanni Sewer (for the water)
10. Sports (Golf) : L2 Sports, L2 Beach, L2 Medieval, namida Desert, GigaLem DesertMod

All levels are going to feature some sort of coloured background, to simulate the 3D experience a little more, while Lemmings Open Air and Lemmings Hall of Fame are going to feature almost exclusively black backgrounds, like their respective original games.

For example, for the Candy setting, I'm combining namida's Candy tileset, Raymanni's Food tileset, and the Candy tileset by davidz:


Eatin' ain't cheatin'

The menu background is the one from Lemmings 3D, and I've also made the menu signs white with red letters, in honour of the original. I actually tried using the original L3D signs first, but the rank names didn't fit the square shape; for everything else, this would have worked fine! :thumbsup:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


There are going to be four main ranks of 20 levels each, like in Lemmings 3D, as well as a Practice rank for first-time players. The rank names are:

00. Virgin
01. Sober
02. Drunk
03. Plastered
04. Delirious


The Practice rank is going to feature levels centered around 1 or 2 skills, i.e. not quite as simple as the mono-skill levels in Lemmings 3D, but in a similar vein. Levels such as this one:


Walkin' after midnight

But occasionally, there are also still going to be somewhat "artistic" levels. Here's one associated with the Medieval and one with the Outdoor setting:


Les Lems des cathédrales


Wuthering Heights

As you can see, we're still sticking to the song-title theme. ;)

So yeah, Lemmings Open Air is definitely going to be finished first - and if only for the fact that it's the only one that doesn't require me to record a bunch of new music tracks first before releasing it.

After that, it really depends on how quickly we can get a stable version of the Jumper to work whether I'm going to focus on Hall of Fame or Drugs and Rock 'n Roll first... :D

54
NeoLemmix Main / Inverted exits and hatches
« on: October 03, 2019, 05:20:09 PM »
Hi, just a quick question: Since I noticed that the option to rotate and invert exits has been restored to the editor a while ago, is there any particular reason why it's possible for exits, but not for hatches? ;)

I sometimes like to have my lemmings come "out of the ground"...

55
Level Design / Lix and Lemmings 2: How essential is the Jumper?
« on: September 22, 2019, 08:47:01 AM »
The Jumper is no doubt one of the main distinctive features of Lix and Lemmings 2: The Tribes compared to other engines. This distinctiveness may lead me to overestimate the frequency of its usage in those games, though.

Now while working on Lemmings Open Air, I notice that a lot of my levels feature the Shimmier - the newest skill as of now, obivously. There are barely any new levels I create where it isn't present, and I need to somewhat force myself occasionally not to include it, to prevent that skill from being completely overrepresented in the pack. That said, there were quite a few levels I created for that pack before the introduction of the Shimmier, and since those naturally couldn't include it (eycept for one or two where I pre-designed Shimmier-friendly terrain in advance), those levels reduce the overrepresentation of the Shimmier skill in the pack.

Since I don't want the Jumper to be overrepresented in Lemmings Hall of Fame, I'm considering creating some levels for that pack in advance of the introduction of the Jumper to "protect them" :D from too much Jumper influence.

So to the Lix creators (and also kieranmillar and other people who have created levels for L2):

How often (just a rough estimate) do you use the Jumper in your custom levels for those engines?

I suspect it's a little more frequent in L2, because most styles don't feature the Blocker, but the Attractor, and the Jumper is one of the main ways to release an Attractor again (although pretty much any other skill would also work).

Lix, on the other hand, has no skill-type restriction - you could have a level include one of every skill type, and the level would still work. So there's less of a cost to including a single Jumper in a level than in L2, which at this point has a tighter skill-type number restriction than NeoLemmix. So a Jumper in L2, if only required at one specific spot, reduces the number of other skills available for the rest of the solution to seven. Maybe that makes it more inviting to base more of the remaining solution on the Jumper as well, once again increasing Jumper usage in L2 compared to Lix.

What's your stance on this? ;)

56
Level Design / How do you feel about vertical scrolling?
« on: September 21, 2019, 01:21:01 PM »
I'm kind of torn about whether I should make more use of vertical scrolling in my levels - especially when it comes to my L2-style pack Lemmings Hall of Fame.

On the one hand, vertical scrolling seems to be very typical of Lemmings 2, and while playing the original levels, it contributes significantly to the feeling of playing Lemmings 2 (if it just weren't for all that annoying execution madness with the fan).

On the other hand, vertical scroling in NeoLemmix makes it much harder for me to judge the fall height without resorting to the splat ruler. Also, the pre-level screens in a classical Lemmings shell are made for wide levels; whenever they have to display vertical levels, those levels need to be shrunk, so you can barely see anything, while the horizontal dimension is barely used.

Finally, even in L2, there are a lot of one-screeners without vertical scrolling.

Hence, I'm not sure whether vertical scrolling is one of the L2 annoyances I want to remove when making a NeoLemmix adaptation, just like the fan and all the execution stuff, or whether it's something so essential to L2 that it should remain to create that L2 feeling - just like the additional skills, specifically Platformer, Swimmer, Stacker, Fencer, Shimmier, (Hang) Glider, and Jumper.

So I just wanted to ask you all about the overall popularity of vertical scrolling, and how many of you would or would not enjoy seeing it more frequently, specifically in NeoLemmix (not talking about Lix or other engines)? ;)

57
NeoLemmix Main / On-terain water and Swimmers
« on: September 18, 2019, 01:37:32 PM »
In a similar vein to the recent discussion about Oh-Noers turned into Swimmers (which should no longer be possible), I want to draw your attention to the possibility of Swimmers interacting with water specified as "only on terrain". I've come up with the attached level yesterday, and wanted to discuss to what extent this behaviour is intended before I base further corner-case stuff on it :evil: . Two issues came up as a result of this:

1) Climbers, Swimmers, and on-terrain water

As it was explained to me in the above-linked thread, Climbers are technically located one pixel inside the wall they are climbing. Consequently, if that pixel of terrain is covered by water, a regular lemming would turn around on the wall as usual, but in the moment you assign a Climber to him, he will drown inside the wall.

A lemming who is a Swimmer already when starting to climb will climb up the wall normally. The same is of course also true if the on-terrain water starts only two or more pixels into the terrain, so that the climber can place its foot pixel inside the non-water-covered terrain on the outside. (To try this out in the attached level, switch off the pre-assigned Swimmers from the hatch and move the on-terrain water objects one pixel to the right.)

A lemming turned into a Climber first will start drowning inside the wall; if you then assign a Swimmer to the Drowner, the lemming will start swimming in the opposite direction for one or two frames before turning back into a Walker (with the Swimmer skill still assigned to him, of course).


2) on-terrain objects and terrain removal

As I've found out in Lemmings-World-Tour design during the construction of a level called "Ring of Fire", which never got made precisely because of me finding out how the mechanics actually work in this case: If you remove the terrain behind an object set to "only on terrain", be that object fire or water, the trigger area still remains active, even though the object is no longer visible. Usually, such removal is only possible by using Bombers (although, in the case of traps, other destructive skills may also work, because with traps, the trigger doesn't cover the entire image of the animation).

Thus, where I intended for the lemmings to bomb through the ring of fire so that the crowd could actually fall into it, the lemmings would still burn, only that the fire objects were no longer visible. So they'd burn in an invisible flame in mid-air.

Water behaves the same way, but since it's not quite as lethal as fire, Swimmers will interact the same way as they normally do with the now-invisible water.

Is this intended? From a "fairness" standpoint, it seems very confusing to the player that an object they can no longer see still affects the game mechanically. We no longer have the option to create invisible objects, but apparently you can still make objects invisible during level playing :D ...

If the mechanics were to be changed so that only-on-terrain objects remain visible when the terrain behind them is removed, this shouldn't affect any levels mechanically. For example, the attached level would still work - although I'd probably change the title, in that case, because the illusion of the Swimmers "flying" would no longer be present. Instead, you'd have to "free the water" out of the terrain to actually be able to use it.

Generally speaking, I think the option of on-terrain-only objects should definitely remain, since it's required to accurately replicate the aesthetics of original Lemmings levels (such as "We are now at LEMCON one", Fun 20, and its rerun).

58
This idea came up as a part of the major discussion about Lemmings 2: The Tribes skills in NeoLemmix in general, but in order to separate it from the bunch of L2-skills that can usually only be justified with "I find them kinda cool", I think this special issue deserves its own dedicated thread.

NeoLemmix has done a great job over the years at allowing Lemmings to go into every direction with both creative and destructive skills. Gone are the days were you need to have a lemming constantly bumping his head against a ceiling due to building, when all you actually want to do is build a horizontal platform. Gone are the days of always having to send a climber ahead and mine down if you want to create a walkable slope through a section of terrain - the Fencer is there for you, and actually allows the opposite type of puzzle as well (send a Glider or Floater ahead and free the crowd from below). Thanks to the Shimmier, Lemmings can now move below terrain as easily as they can move on top of terrain. And while too many options can always break a level by introducing a background, the mere existence of a skill itself is never at a danger to do so - only a skill provided in the wrong context can create a shortcut, and then again, that's true for effectively every skill.

When thinking of a matrix of "direction of movement" put up against "destructive" and "creative" skills, there are only three things remaining that Lemmings can't do:

- build straight down (to e.g. create a climbable wall or stop a crowd at a lower elevation from falling off a platform)
- build down diagonally (to allow lemmings from a lower level to walk up, or create a bridge that doesn't automatically bring a crowd from above into danger of splatting)
- dig upward

The upward digger seems to be the biggest unoccupied niche in level design here to me. The reason being: The Platformer already eliminates many of the problems the Builder originally had, like inevitably creating splat height after covering a long horizontal distance and requiring additional builder staircases as "splatforms" below as a consequence. If a horizontal platform still ends up too high above a lower platform, the Stoner helps to cover the remaining distance.

The only type of level I see remaining for both "straight-down" and "diagonal" builders is what I would summarise as "Rapunzel levels" :D (a Lemming or crowd from above gets the crowd from below up by creating terrain, rather than by mining, as it is commonplace).



Upward digging, in contrast, can be useful to both Lemmings from above and below, and also opens up many new interesting challenges, depending on how the digging would be executed. Starting from something we already know, I think there are three skills from Lemmings 2: The Tribes that could do the job. These are pretty much mutually exclusive, since we usually don't consider adding anything to NeoLemmix that only provides a minor difference to an already-existing skill (the smallest difference in my view being the one between Stoners and Stackers, currently).

Those three potential upward-diggers are:
- Laser Blaster
- Twister
- Magno Booter (Lemmings 2) / Gravity-Reversal object (Lemmings Revolution)


The core difference between the Laser Blaster and the Twister would of course be:

With the Laser Blaster, the Lemming remains in place, and terrain can be removed at a large distance. As such, the Laser Blaster is part of an overarching group of skills from L2 that could create or destroy terrain from the distance (Bazooka, Mortar, Archer, Thrower etc.). Mainy players find this use somewhat limited, as a lot of Laser Blaster levels merely consist of getting the Laser Blaster below the crowd and freeing them from below. However, with the shaft being straight, obviously it could also be used by a Climber. In such a case, the main challenge would be how to actually get a Climber to the Laser-Blaster shaft in the first place, since not even the Laser Blaster himself actually ever got close to the ceiling the Climber is supposed to climb into. Another thing is that the ridiculous fall height in Lemmings 2 often makes Laser-Blaster usage a lot easier than it should be: In NeoLemmix, with the standard fall height of 64 pixels, many drops the Laser Blaster creates will be too high, and thus will require additional skills, like Stoners, rather than auto-solving the level by itself.

The Twister, in contrast, moves the Lemming that destroys the terrain along with itself. In Lemmings 2, the Twister is mainly used for purposes for which we resort to the Fencer, given that the Fencer in L2 barely moves upwards at all. The lack of a genuine upward Miner is one of the greatest weaknesses of Lemmings 2 in my opinion, because the Twister requires the fan and thus is a nightmare to execute. In NeoLemmix, fortunately, we have a properly diagonal-moving Fencer already, and as such, we'd only need the Twister to go up vertically. This is something that the L2 Twister cannot do, obviously, because it falls straight down again. That said, there are other L2 skills that defy gravity, such as the Jet Pack and the Superlemming.
An upward digger that takes the Lemming along with it - which would indeed be more true to the original Digger - would have to move the Lemming enough pixels to the side in whatever direction its facing, to prevent it from falling down the shaft he just created again right away.

The Magno-Booter would definitely be the most versatile, but therefore probably also the hardest skill to program: It's a skill that allows Lemmings to walk on walls and ceilings. As such, it combines aspects from both the Climber and the Shimmier. The L2 Magno-Booter is pretty much just a surrogate for them, because you can't actually assign any skills to a Lemming while he's walking around in boots, at least not while he's attached to a wall or ceiling.
The Gravity-Reversal object from Lemmings Revolution accomplishes the same thing - Lemmings walking upside-down - but the direction can only be reversed in the specific spot where these objects are located. Since these upside-down Lemmings are regular Walkers, they can do anything a normal Walker could do as well - not only digging into the ceiling, but also mining, therefore acting like a Fencer, or even building.
This means that the Magno-Booter or Gravity-Reversal tool would not only fill the gap of the upward digger, but also of the downward Builder at one fell swoop.
At the same time, it would eliminate the question of "How do I actually get a Lemming to access a shaft created by an upward Digger from below, e.g. for climbing?"
A Magno-Booter would simply continue to walk from the ceiling onto the wall of the shaft, and then walk up the shaft.
A gravity-reversed Lemming, in contrast, would walk along the ceiling until he reaches the shaft and then fall into it, possibly splatting when hitting the next ceiling if the distance is 64 pixels or more.


As I just outlined in another thread, I think that due to the introduction of the 10-skills-panel, NeoLemmix has space for a 20th skill, rounding out 2x10 after the Jumper has been introduced. :)

But I'm torn about which of these three I'd like to see the most, especially being aware that they are so similar that they would most likely be mutually exclusive, because with either of them introduced into NeoLemmix, the other two can't really justify their existence.

I do think the Magno-Booter offers the most potential, while the Laser Blaser might just appeal to people because of the idea and the name.

That said, if a behaviour similar to that of the Magno-Booter can also be accomplished by introducing a new object (the Gravity-Reversal object), rather than a new skill, that would theoretically free up the slot for the 20th skill for either the Laser Blaster or the Twister.

Any thoughts on this? ;)

And just to be clear: This is nothing but very, very early brainstorming. I'm not urging namida to add anything more to NeoLemmix, since he's currently already introducing new features into the game at such an incredible rate that, if I didn't know better, I would believe he had become a NeoLemmix developer full-time... :thumbsup:

59
Level Design / Defining the classic 10 skills
« on: August 19, 2019, 01:20:29 PM »
No, you didn't misread the title. ;) namida's recent introduction of the 10-skill-panel added a lot more degrees of freedom to NeoLemmix. Still, as we know from earlier years, many people have a tendency to still want to create predominantly levels that feature the classic 8 skills. Since the 10-skill-panel doesn't expand with every new skill added, but simply features 10 slots all the time, I think this feature might actually break up the year-old "bias" for the classic 8 skills: If you want your skill panel to look complete - and let's be honest, who doesn't enjoy that, from a purely visual standpoint? ;) - then you have to add two more skills. And since there are no classic 10 skills officially, everyone will pick something different, thereby creating more diverse levels.

But let's say you want to make a level that feels "classic" and still has a full skill panel. Which of the 10 NeoLemmix skills do you choose?

While the introduction of the Shimmier brought the total number of skill types up to 18, they're not exactly split in half between Classic and Neo, after all.

As of now, I'd go with the two most unique skills that don't feel as if they could be replaced by any other Classic or NeoLemmix skill: Walker and Cloner.

The constructive NeoLemmix skills, i.e. Platformer, Stacker, and Stoner, all bear some similarity to specific skills from the Classic set (Builder, Blocker, and Bomber, respectively). And the Fencer is an upward Miner, the Glider a diagonal Floater. The Disarmer is too narrow in its potential for application to be worth a standard inclusion on a "Classic 10 skills panel", in my opinion. I guess one could make a case for the Swimmer doing something unique, but here something else comes into play:

Both the Walker and the Cloner are not Lemmings 2: The Tribes skills. Consequently, they don't feel like "just another skill from a random pool of many". The Walker is actually from Lemmings 3: An All New World of Lemmings, where skills didn't even really exist anymore as a clear concept: Lemmings could perform any type of "motion" infinitely often (walking, blocking, jumping etc.), while everything else had to be collected like a power-up, leading to the eventual development of pickup skills in NeoLemmix.

Speaking of jumping, though: Longterm, I think a "Classic 10 skills" concept should add the Walker and the Jumper, rather than the Walker and the Cloner, to the Classic 8.

Yes, the Jumper is a Lemmings 2 skill, in contrast to the Cloner. However, it can be considered a cross-platform classic at this point: Not only does Lix have Walker and Jumper as well (but no Cloner), but also other Lemmings adaptations, like the Linux version "Pingus", featured it.

But whether the Jumper or the Cloner should be the "10th Classic skill", I think this will be a continuous ground for debate.

Much like, until recently, there was no way to make a level featuring all NeoLemmix skills - because ever since the introduction of the Fencer, we had 9 NeoLemmix skills next to 8 classic ones. With both the Shimmier and the 10-skills-panel, this is finally possible (again)! :thumbsup:

...but of course, the introduction of the Jumper will remove the option of an All-Neo-Skills level again, by bringing the Neo-Skill count up to 11. As Spinal Tap said: "That's one louder..." :evil:

During the days of 9 NeoLemmix skills vs. 8 slots on the panel, I frequently used to drop the Disarmer - although, historically speaking, it would have to be the Fencer, because the Disarmer was indeed among the first 8 NeoLemmix skills to be introduced.

Thus, in the not-too-distant future, when designing an All-Neo-Skills level, we will still have to decide for one that we drop from the panel, and we will always have two empty slots on the Classic panel.

Unless we define a new "Classic 10". Again, for the overview, here's my suggestion.

Classic Ten: Walker, Jumper, Climber, Floater, Bomber, Blocker, Builder, Basher, Miner, Digger
Neo Nine: Swimmer, Shimmier, Glider, Stoner, Stacker, Platformer, Fencer, Disarmer, Cloner

In the meantime, the Cloner takes the Jumper's spot among the Classic Ten.

But of course, long-term, Classic Ten and Neo Nine seems inconsistent. :D Maybe we can still find a useful and unique 20th skill to add some time in the remote distant future, so that we would end up with two "complete" alternate sets of skills again.

Not only because the NeoLemmix skills are lacking in destructive skills, featuring only the Fencer, but also in general, I'm pretty sure such a skill would somehow revolve around the eternal issue of upward digging... (in L2-terms: either the Laser Blaster, Twister, or Magno-Booter)

60
Closed / [Bug][Editor] Inconsistent naming bomber / exploder
« on: August 17, 2019, 11:36:06 AM »
This is so minor that I feel stupid for even calling it a bug, but even more stupid for never having noticed it so far:

In the editor, in the skill panel selection, the skill is called "Exploder".

However, when you place a pickup skill and select what type of skill it is supposed to be, the ticking box is still labeled as "Bomber".

Might be somewhat confusing for new users. ;) If Exploder is the new term, which I do prefer because it's unambiguous and avoids confusion for anyone who has played Lemmings 2, then the pickup skill should also be called that way.

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