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Topics - Strato Incendus

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16
While trying to make my levels for my next pack, Lemmings: Hall of Fame, as true to Lemmings 2: The Tribes as possible, I sometimes start out by re-building an actual Lemmings 2: The Tribes level in NeoLemmix as closely as possible, and then modifying it from there.

However, just like WillLem has recently made an attempt to recreate original Amiga Lemmings in NeoLemmix, I thought: Why not make this another community challenge?

Which levels from Lemmings 2: The Tribes can be re-created in (and thus "ported to") NeoLemmix?

I actually love the variety of skills available in Lemmings 2, and the tilesets and music tracks as well. The main thing that really bothers me about it is the horrendous execution difficulty, be it with regards to the fan, the switching between "pause selected / fast-forward selected / fan selected / skill selected", the knockback effects of certain explosive skills, or even just the hassle of restarting the level (the Amiga version doesn't contain the option to simply press ESC, you have to nuke every time you want to restart - and I'm using the Amiga version as a .bat file for the original levels, so that I can simultaneously keep kieranmillar's levels in the folder of my DOS version of Lemmings 2).

But if there's one thing that NeoLemmix can abolish easily, it's precisely this execution difficulty! ;)

So maybe we can increase the fun of playing L2 a little by making levels from it available for NeoLemmix. My first example is a manually recreated version of Beach level 07, "SAND IN YER SARNIES". I could easily replace the Stomper with a Digger. The Runner isn't available in NeoLemmix, but it doesn't add anything apart from increasing execution speed (we have the space bar for that :P ). Also, I didn't add a timelimit, because most of them don't seem to serve a purpose in L2. Everything else is as in L2.



I'm sure the options for "porting levels from L2 over to NeoLemmix" will increase drastically if we do indeed end up getting all new four skills (Laserer, Slider, Spearer, and Grenader) introduced! :thumbsup:

17
Steps to reproduce:
1) Assign a Stacker.
2) Make a lemming a Climber so that he can climb the stack.
3) Assign a Shimmier to the lemming while climbing the stack. At one point, he can transition into a Shimmier (i.e. turn around and shimmy into the opposite direction) as if there were a ceiling, even though there is none. It will only be for a very short time, but it can be used to turn a Climber around who would otherwise just climb straight over the stack.

I discovered this behaviour because some people kept using it to backroute some of my Lemmings Open Air levels. :P

I'm not calling for it to be abolished simply because I want those backroutes broken. In fact, I'm not sure whether I'd personally want to see it abolished at all, because it's a pretty cool trick once you know about it.

The question is just: Is it intentional? And more importantly, would this be in line with what you'd expect? Because it definitely wasn't expected for me at all.
Wouldn't this then also mean that there's a certain point when climbing regular walls where the lemming can transition into a Shimmier, even without a ceiling being there?

18
You may not be able to go to any real open-air festivals right now. And you're definitely not able to go to indoors concerts. But there is an alternative world where all human beings are 8 pixels large, and neither have to worry about infections... nor about how many of them die for other reasons. And in that world, open-air concerts are as possible as ever. ;)

After two years in the making, the follow-up to Lemmings World Tour is finally here!



You can download both the pack itself as well as the required add-on tileset in the attachments.
Please make sure to download this tileset, strato_generalmd, as well, because it adds some miscellaneous pieces that are required to make a couple of levels work.


The music pack is the same as for Lemmings World Tour. If you don't have it yet, you can get it here!
It features my self-recorded rock / metal versions of the original Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings music.
(This does not include ONML track 04, because I hate it :P , nor the "cross-promotion" tracks of Beast, Menace, and Awesome).



Lemmings Open Air aims to recreate the feeling of playing original Lemmings while at the same time using NeoLemmix skills and features, and sticking to NeoLemmix puzzle philosophy:

- The new skills Shimmier and Jumper are front and centre in this pack.
On the first two ranks, you will only have to deal with the Shimmier. And you might be glad about that, because these levels run the Shimmier through all its gears, and might possibly demand from you every last trick you can pull off with it. ;)
After that, the Jumper gets introduced on rank 3.

- A lot of levels make use of the expanded 10-slots skill panel.

- The tilesets are mainly the ones from original Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings, with a few levels in my two new custom tilesets of mine added. These should however blend nicely with the classic ones:

Autumn tileset:

Fallen leaves

Money tileset:

I need a dollar

Normally, there should be no need to re-download these two styles, since they have been part of the official styles download for a while now.



Lemmings Open Air has 120 levels, 30 for each of four ranks:
Soft, Loud, Heavy, and Hardcore


Just like in Lemmings World Tour, all the levels are named after songs.
However, in reference to the famous metal festival that is Wacken Open Air, the tracks are not ordered by how famous the songs are (as it was the case in Lemmings World Tour).
Instead, they increase in order of "heaviness", starting with largely soft pop songs and ballads and ending with the most brutal death metal ever known to Lemkind. ;)

The title "Open Air" was also chosen because, after Lemmings World Tour, this was the first pack I started developing for New Formats - where the ceiling is no longer solid, but "open" and thus deadly. ;) This is also referenced by one of the later levels in the pack, which was however one of the first levels I made for it, called "Forlorn skies".

Because this is a follow-up to Lemmings World Tour, even though stylistically very different, the pack expects you to know all of the tricks that especially the first two ranks of Lemmings World Tour taught you.

Of course, if you already know a lot of tricks and consider yourself an experienced player, feel free to try this even if you haven't played Lemmings World Tour yet
- it's quite a huge bite to swallow, after all.
But don't be surprised if this pack hits you out of nowhere with something you might not know yet... ;-)


SOFT
Just the first two levels have all 18 skills that were available at that time (i.e. minus the Jumper) crammed into them. It's the fastest crash-course possible in NeoLemmix. And immediately after that, you're shoved out on stage and have to deliver! ;) The songs on this rank may be fairly easy-going, but that doesn't necessarily mean the levels will be, as well...

Don't worry, be happy

Always look on the bright side of life

LOUD
Going into slightly harder territory now. Here you will find the occasional punk / rock band, and for the ballads on this rank, they're usually already power ballads, with a little more "oomph" to them. Be prepared to use the Shimmier in all kinds of non-obvious ways!

Born to be wild

November rain

HEAVY
The Jumper gets introduced on level 2. Be prepared to have it interact with the Shimmier right from the start! After all, whether the songs are glam rock or classic old-school heavy metal, we want to see all those lemming hands up in the air! ;)

I believe in a thing called Lems

Poison

HARDCORE
These puzzles will wrench your mind as much as their titles will wrench your guts :evil: . The song titles will become less and less known as I've dredged them from the darkest depths of the Hell dimension. It's pretty much all Death- or Black Metal at this point. The final level is named after an absolute classic of the genre.

Chopped in half

Symphony of destruction


In stark contrast to Lemmings World Tour, the levels in this pack are largely abstract shapes, not specific locations or "realistic-looking" objects. The focus is on the mechanical challenge first, aesthetics come second. If the levels are pretty, that will usually just mean a nice mix of colours. ;)

However, I've put my two very artistic Christmas levels in here (that don't actually make a lot of use of the Christmas tileset). So it feels just fitting to release this pack at the end of November.

Also, there are a few levels which were hard to completely backroute-fix despite extensive testing.
Interestingly enough, though, one level that is known to have backroutes available still managed to stump one of my testers. :thumbsup:
Thus, when even the "unfixable" backroutes are hard to find, you know you've got a difficult pack on your hands! ;)

Many thanks to Armani, kaywhyn, and Flopsy for pre-release testing, as well as nin10doadict (and again Armani) for early testing!
Also thanks to Nepster for introducing the Shimmier, to namida for introducing the Jumper, and obviously to both of them for creating and maintaining New-Formats NeoLemmix. ;)


And with that, I declare this festival open! ;)

19
It's nice that we have so many different graphic sets, but by now it's really getting hard to keep the overview. Not over the standard orig, ONML, and L2 tilesets, which are right at the start (where they should stay, since they are probably the most-frequently-used ones). But when it comes to custom tilesets, the order in the dropdown menu in the editor seems fairly arbitrary.

Yeah, sure, I can understand why namida's Lemmings Plus tilesets are first in the list after the official tilesets - he created and maintains this entire thing, after all, and we all are very thankful for it ;) .

However, even after namida's tilesets, the order doesn't really seem to be alphabetical or anything else: Gronkling comes before Flopsy, then it jumps back to Arty, then Raymanni, then IchoTolot, then the Freedom-Planet tilesets... I often spend a long time just scrolling through this list, even though I know exactly which tileset I want to pick, but I just can't find it quickly.

In addition, each line start's with the name of the tileset, not with that of the author; so sometimes, if the tileset name is long enough that you can't properly see the author, it would be hard to tell the order even if it were alphabetical.

I think it would be in everyone's best interest, for the sake of convenience, if we bring some order into this randomness. ;)

My suggestion would be:
1) Everything from the orig tilesets down to the L3 tilesets remains as it is right now.

2) After that section, the custom tilesets currently start with namida's Lemmings Plus tilesets. I wouldn't necessarily mind them staying there, with the alphabetical order starting after namida. However, especially for those LP tilesets that GigaLem has revamped, most people are probably using those more frequently now. So it doesn't really make sense for the original LP tilesets to take precedent in this regard.
3) Maybe the format shouldn't be "Tileset name (Author)", but "Author: Tileset name"? Since we're reading from left to right, it would be much easier to tell this way where you are in the alphabetical order. But this is just optional.

Whether the naming scheme starts with the author or the tileset name itself:
Just begin the custom-tileset list with authors starting on A, and then continue that all the way down to zanzindorf.
In case of Colorful Arty, we / he need(s) to decide whether he should go by his full name (i.e. letter C), or just by "Arty", as it's written in the editor right now (i.e. letter A). Given the limited width of the dropdown menu, shortening it to "Arty" is probably more practical.

An alphabetical order is not a value judgment, after all - it's neutral and purely pragmatical. ;)
This should apply to all tilesets which have been "officially approved", i.e. are part of the official styles download.

After the letter z, we could have all the special tilesets at the bottom, followed by whatever the individual level designer maybe added by him- or herself, but what isn't part of the official download (yet). In my case, all my custom sprite recolourings go there.

20
Level Design / Vote on the theme of my next pack!
« on: November 21, 2020, 04:40:06 PM »
So, it looks like the release of Lemmings Open Air (LOA) is finally just around the corner, after two years.
I have two further music-themed packs in development, both of which are intended to feature the final skills that get introduced (and I seriously hope it will be all four of them! :thumbsup:)
Both of these packs (Lemmings: Hall of Fame (LHF) and Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll (LDR)) have strong tileset restrictions attached to them, though, because they're supposed to look and feel like Lemmings 2: The Tribes and Lemmings 3D respectively.

Lemmings Open Air (LOA) will contain all skills which are currently part of the latest stable version of NeoLemmix (12.10), i.e. including the Shimmier and the Jumper.
It will be noticeable though that those skills were introduced alongside development, because the first two ranks only feature the Shimmier, as far as new skills are concerned, whereas the Jumper doesn't appear until rank 3 of 4.

However, I feel like I still want to make at least one pack using classic tilesets (like LOA) that will also feature all the skills the final version of NeoLemmix is going to have.

Once LHF and LDR are finished, I will have done music-themed packs in style of classical Lemmings, Lemmings 2: The Tribes, and Lemmings 3D. So it seems to me like the music-theme will be pretty much (over-)done at that point.

I have already decided that I will NOT make a music-themed pack inspired by Lemmings 3: An All New World of Lemmings. I've never played it during my childhood, haven't played it much either since I joined the forums, and I think it strays so far from original lemmings (including the larger sprites etc.) that it feels completely different. Emulating it in NeoLemmix would require a bunch of pickup skills, plus always providing infinite Walkers, Blockers, Jumpers etc. And I would have to be an avid fan of Lemmings 3 to do it, which I'm not.

If we do end up getting additional objects as well, specifically portals (=non-release-rate sensitive teleporters) and toggles to turn certain terrain sections on and off, I could still see myself making a music-themed pack in style of Lemmings Revolution.
However, we don't have any tilesets that are particularly reminiscent of Lemmings Revolution. Plus, an accurate simulation of Lemmings Revolution may or may not require the presence of (horizontal) level wrap.



Therefore, I would be perfectly fine with dropping the music theme after Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll (Lemmings: Hall of Fame will most likely come out first) and make my next pack about something completely different.

I've kind of always needed an overarching theme ever since I released Pit Lems, which felt a little meaningless to me because it was just an arbitrary collection of (albeit satisfactory) puzzles.
Our community is quite small, so whenever I make a pack full of references to a specific topic, I of course want to choose something that as many people as possible will "get". ;)

That's why I want to determine early in which direction I will be going, theme-wise. Mainly because the current experimental version with the new skills is restricted to classic, ONML, and Christmas tilesets.
(I do get the impression that namida did this on purpose so that I wouldn't use any L2 styles, treating those levels as if I could already make them part of Lemmings Hall of Fame :P . That's why I went with Pillar exclusively so far, because those levels can still become part of the L2 Classic tribe. :D )

I don't know how long the experimental phase for the new skills is going to last, but assuming all four skills get introduced, over the course of the experimental phase, I will probably end up with a bunch of levels in classic tilesets that stylistically won't fit into any of the packs I'm currently working on, once the experimental phase has been completed. (LOA uses classic tilesets, but level creation has already been completed for several weeks now.)



So here are a bunch of alternative themes, other nerd topics, that a future pack of mine designed around all skills equally could be based upon:

1) Magic: The Gathering.
With a player base always ranging in at least two-digit millions, and thus larger than the population of quite a few countries, a Multiverse of Lemming planeswalkers would have a high chance of containing references familiar to fellow "nerds". ;) And I could use the different tilesets to represent different planes of the multiverse. Most likely, it would not suffice to restrict myself to classic and ONML tilesets here, and some levels may tilt towards my "level painting" style again, as represented by the geography levels in Lemmings World Tour. However, I hope that pack has shown that artistic quality doesn't necessarily have to come at the cost of puzzle quality (though some may disagree on that :P ). Most level titles would probably refer to names of individual cards, though I could see references to places, names of editions (sets), or events as well. I could also use differently coloured sprites to represent various species / tribes from the MtG worlds (e.g. a recolouring of GigaLem's Millas to represent Elves).
Pack title: Lemmings: The Gathering
Rank names: Novice, Apprentice, Magician, Adept, Planeswalker

2) Horror Films. Movies were on the above-linked list of themes I made two years ago, and because that topic would be just a little too vast in my book, I'd focus on the "disturbing" side of cinema (or usually: direct-to-DVD releases ^^) specifically. A couple of years ago, I took a little dive into the cesspool of the most f*ed-up sh*t that writers and directors have come up with so far. So if you ever wanted to see a "Lemming Centipede" or play "The 120 levels of Sodom", this would be the place to go ;) .
Again, I could see myself using other tilesets than classic ones for this - in particular, there have been quite a few Horror- / Halloween related tilesets. Those tend to be more on the spooky than the gory side, though. So there would definitely also be frequent appearances of the Menace tileset for "Splatter levels". The level titles would probably just refer to the movie names, or to a quote from the movies, if there are particularly memorable or (in-)famous ones. Zombies would probably be more frequent again, and the lemming death toll per level would most likely be higher than usual. :evil:
Pack title: Lemmings Slaughterhouse
Rank names (taken from Paralems): Harmless, Disturbing, Disgusting, Abhorrent, Demented

3) Memes. We already have Rickrolling as a tileset, and Pepe the Frog on the L2 Outdoor tileset. And some memes that are based on other songs (e.g. Numa Numa, Trololo) I have already featured in Lemmings World Tour. Those few levels may therefore be worth using again, or I would just create a separate level, referring to the meme specifically instead of the song it's based on. From a Climber-introduction level named "Well that escalated quickly" over "You keep using that skill" and "I don't always play Lemmings (but when I do)..." to puzzles that are so confusing that they just deserve a straight-up Captain Picard "What the f*ck...?" meme, the level titles in such a pack should be understandable to anyone who is somewhat regularly active on the internet. ;)
Pack title: Lemmings Social Network
Rank names: P-C, Mainstream, Offensive, Edgy, Shitlord

4) Astronomy. Starting on Earth, traveling through the solar system, to Alpha Centauri and beyond, eventually leaving the Milky Way towards Andromeda until we reach the edge of the DMA universe, we will search the depths of the cosmos for other forms of unintelligent life. :evil: This presents a possible opportunity for the re-appearance of the level "I'm your Venus" from Lemmings World Tour, as well as for a follow-up level named "Uranus" from Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll. Apart from that, lemming space is pretty much still unexplored. ;) The different tilesets could be used to represent different planets and moons, or at least different types of worlds (rocky planets, water worlds, gas giants etc.). Level titles wouldn't come up quite as easily as with the other themes, but it should still be doable.
Music-wise, I would consider doing orchestral versions of the original Lemmings tracks this time. Those would be much easier to record, because I could do it all via MIDI. And it would be stylistically more similar to film music from actual SciFi movies and series. ;)
Pack title: Lemmings Universe
Rank names: Planetary, Stellar, Galactic, Universal (the first three are taken from the Kardashev scale, and Universal would just be the next possible utopian extension after "Galactic")

5) Music. If I were to stick to the music theme (i.e. every level title is a song title), I could try to simulate a Lemmings-Revolution experience in NeoLemmix - using Zombies for the occasional Weasels. Colorful Arty's Water Lemmings would also appear somewhat frequently. In the absence of gravity reversal, Shimmiers and other skills that can affect the ceiling (like Fencers, and eventually Spearers and Laserers) would fill that gap. If we don't get portals, regular teleporters would be used instead. And if we don't get level wrap, teleporters can partly simulate that as well. I'd have to check the Lemmings Revolution music tracks again to see whether it would be worthwhile to create self-recorded versions of those. That would be another novelty then.
Alternatively, I could create a second music-themed pack with classic tilesets, i.e. similar to Lemmings Open Air, but maybe actually easier than that.
Pack title: Lemmings Band Camp
Rank names: Noob, Punk, Shredder, Virtuoso, Maestro



I haven't decided on the size of the pack yet - it might be smaller than most of those I've done so far.
Thus, those ideas don't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive.
It's reasonable to assume though that a pack featuring all skills would require a good deal of introductory levels, and should therefore have an appropriate minimum size so that those introductory levels don't make up a majority share of the entire pack.

I gave every user two votes at first to narrow down the choices; in the end, I might put up a second poll to decide between the top two candidates, in case the race is close.

21
NeoLemmix Main / NeoLemmix Old Formats Installer Files?
« on: September 26, 2020, 06:10:22 PM »
So, once again my laptop crashed during the development of a pack. :devil: It happened for the first time two years ago during the final stages of Lemmings World Tour, and now of course it had to happen again during the final stages of Lemmings Open Air.

Fortunately, I had backups of all the levels in both cases - in this case I had everything in Dropbox. However, while last time it was only the hard drive that needed to be replaced, this time my laptop was thrown into a loop of constant rebooting. I was able to fix it with a system image recovery, resetting my laptop to December 2018, and then dropping all my New-Formats level packs back in from Dropbox.

The first crash occured while I was working on a level for Lemmings Open Air - I was able to recreate it from my hand-drawing and from memory this morning. I also still got the opportunity to fix some levels from LOA that had broken due to the Glider-Faller physics change. But eventually, the rebooting loop returned. Well, that laptop was 10 years old, after all; I had just upgraded its hard drive and RAM to the maximum that was possible after the last crash in 2018. So I hoped it would still last longer. But even attempting to re-install Windows from USB disk or CD didn't work.

Long story short: I rushed to the store and got myself a new laptop. I am still going to try to access my SSD hard drive from the old laptop to extract all the files. But of course, the system image recovery that reset it back to December 2018, even though it was the best chance of saving the laptop as a whole, of course deprived me of all of my newer files. I just took the risk because basically everything I worked on since that last crash in August 2018 I immediately saved in Dropbox, so I knew I wouldn't lose much.

So now I need to re-install NeoLemmix - and not just New Formats, but also Old Formats (10.13) and Very Old Formats (1.43). ;) Most importantly because I want to continue maintaininig Lemmings World Tour in both formats. But also because kaywhyn picked up my first two packs (Paralems and Pit Lems) this weekend. So of course, I at least need to be able to play them again myself to evaluate his feedback. And if for nothing else, ensuring playability of older packs is why we always keep old versions available.

However, on the NeoLemmix website, I now only find the Old-Formats player exe file, but not the rest? Meaning, whatever folders I need for the skill panel, gfx, editor etc. The styles I can all get from my Old-Formats Lemmings World Tour thread (which is especially important because I modified some of them, as you might remember).

I assume it's still possible to download version 10.13 (and version 1.43) somewhere - otherwise kaywhyn and ericderkovits (who recently replay-watched Lemmicks) wouldn't have been able to look at these older packs of mine just recently. ;) I just don't know where to get them from?

As I said, I might be able to salvage them from the SSD of my old laptop, since I already had those older versions installed back in December 2018. And this time, I assume it was not the hard drive itself that broke (as a storage space), but "just" the operating system. But I might be wrong. So I'd feel a lot safer if I simply knew from which online resource I could retreive those older versions.

22
Level Design / [DON'T] Binary win conditions
« on: September 24, 2020, 11:11:41 AM »
I've been noticing a pattern recently across various games that seems to spark frustration in players, both in me and others. Once I had become aware of this, I started thinking back whether I had encountered it in Lemmings level as well - and yes, I did. It just didn't occur to me back then that this design choice might be a general flaw, if not to say a cardinal sin of game design, instead of something specific to (custom) Lemmings packs.

Thus, most of my "ranting" in this thread will refer to other games than Lemmings ;) . And I'm not planning to hit on any specific custom level pack here. I'm just sure that we all can think of levels where we encountered this type of obstacle.

I'm talking about what I've heard being described as "binary win conditions".
A case in which the difference between success and failure comes down to a single aspect that also happens to be hard to control.
Consequently, the chance of hit or miss basically amounts to the toss of a coin. In other words: It's random. ;) As a result, frustration arises with both outcomes.
- In case of failure, the player is frustrated because they feel there is little they can control to improve the outcome. All they can do is try again and hope for the best.
- In case of success, the player can't really attribute it to their own skill, because (unless they're extremely lucky and succeed on the first attempt) through the previous failures they know the outcome is basically random. Meaning, they externalise their success as "I've just been lucky this time". They will be glad it's over, yes, but it's not something they will enjoy looking back on as a proud achievement.



Here are some examples of games that made me aware of this general pattern:

Magic: The Gathering (click to show/hide)


Star Wars Episode I Racer (click to show/hide)

With examples 2 and 3, because both are video games, knowing that these binary win conditions appear at certain fix points of the game is also hugely detrimental to their replay value: Because you always know you have this huge roadblock ahead of you that basically comes down to chance. This divides every repeated playing experience into a "before" and "after". Kind of like what traumatised people report about their lives... :lem-mindblown:
During the "before" stage, you can't really enjoy the game, because you know the binary win condition is still coming, the dreaded thing is still ahead of you.
During the roadblock, you don't enjoy it, for the reasons stated above - you're just all tense the entire time and simply want to get it over with (again).
And afterwards, while you may be relieved about it being over, a good chunk of the game is now already over, as well. Usually the best part (because most developers tend to put more effort into the early parts of a game, while at the end, they're under time pressure to finish up the product and start losing their creativity). But the best part of the game you couldn't enjoy as much as you would have liked to, because at that time you still had the known roadblock ahead of you.



In original Lemmings, the classical example of a binary win condition is the aptly named Mayhem level "All or nothing":

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In NeoLemmix
, we rarely have such binary win conditions in terms of execution difficulty. We do however have them in terms of puzzle difficulty.

In particular, this comes up when a certain obscure skill  trick is required, and, similarly to "All or nothing", this trick is the main or even the only thing the level requires:

- If the player happens to know the trick is possible, the level is an auto solve.
- If the player doesn't know the trick is possible, and the level isn't set up in such a way that the player is bound to find out eventually, the level becomes a complete roadblock. Because the knowledge required for the intended solution isn't even part of the player's considerations.

Examples from original Lemmings would famously "I have a cunning plan" and "No added colours or Lemmings".
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
"No added colours or Lemmings" usually gets a pass, because it has a clever solution overall that even makes it the best level in original Lemmings in the eyes of many.
"I have a cunning plan" is the worse offender here, because it's really just about knowing or not knowing the trick. There is an alternative solution, the one that I've been using at a kid. But it basically just requires you to have knowledge of the "No added colours or Lemmings" trick at this earlier level, plus it's much harder to execute:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In custom packs, I've encountered binary win conditions e.g. on two levels that both used the Blocker-Basher turnaround / cancel trick. Even though I was later told by the level designer that neither of the two levels where I saw somebody else use this trick actually required it, to this day I still can't think of any other solution for it than using this trick.

With a bunch of skills - and a bunch of tricks regarding their combinations - being available by now, binary win conditions also explain the split that we've been observing in the player base for a while now: Meaning between very skilled and very casual players. And this has been reflected by a split in pack difficulty, between a lot of very hard packs (designed by players who know all the tricks) and very easy packs (designed by newcomers), with few packs in the middle or intermediate difficulty category:

Once you know about the tricks, they become self-evident. You start looking for all kinds of affordances in the level landscape where you can employ them.
However, as long as you don't know them, levels requiring such tricks from you as part of their intended solution (and doing a good job at enforcing them, i.e. being backroute-proof) will be complete roadblocks until you read up on the fact that trick X is even possibly in the first place.

As someone who likes inventing solutions revolving around obscure skill tricks and combinations, this is something I should probably take to heart more frequently
- considering how much such binary win conditions frustrate me whenever I encounter them in other games. ;)

I think the main reason I resort to levels based on skill tricks so much is because I suck at hiding things in plain sight. I can of course create "resource-conservation" levels, but such levels are generally open-ended and will usually leave the player with a lot of remaining skills, instead of all skills being accounted for. This is basically not much different from the issues I've been criticising about X-of-everything levels, yet this is what even my own resource-conservation levels often end up looking like.

Meanwhile, some of the most amazing puzzles I've seen are technically just "additive" challenges, meaning all the skills are used in fairly standard ways, not in obscure skill combinations. And yet, when you approach these levels in a standard manner, you always find yourself one skill short, and you can't figure out why, until you do. This is explicitly not a binary win condition ;) - the level just somehow makes you overlook the obvious, but there are many ways you can ultimately arrive at the correct conclusion.

I've tried to bridge the gap between the "trick-aware" and "non-trick-aware" players via the Noisemaker rank in my pack Lemmings World Tour. However, some of the hints instructing the trick where clearly too vague in the beginning. Thus, I probably created a roadblock of a binary win condition as early as level 08 in the pack, "Glide and joy", which I could only remove by spelling out the trick in the pre-level text explicitly.


So it seems like this is something we all occasionally do. ;) Maybe we should try doing it less in our future levels?

23
Lemmings Main / Menu backgrounds for Lemmings 2 and Lemmings 3D?
« on: September 18, 2020, 06:21:40 PM »
For my custom packs Lemmings: Hall of Fame and Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll, which are inspired by Lemmings 2: The Tribes and Lemmings 3D, respectively, I'm using the menu backgrounds from those packs.

However, I had to take them from a google image of a level pre- or post-view screen, and then cut out a small piece of background that wasn't covered by fonts or images. Thus, the best I can currently do is repeating those sections, but you can of course still see the lines between the "puzzle pieces" that form the background.

Does anyone have a larger image of the blank level-selection-menu background for Lemmings 2 and/or Lemmings 3D?

namida, maybe, is that part of your L3D editor? ;)

24
NeoLemmix Levels / Was: TeleLems
« on: June 09, 2020, 12:01:26 PM »
Edit Simon: mantha16 has unpublished TeleLems and prefers the original publication topic removed. Here are only the replies by others.



One quick general note: When you change the 0 at the end of the dropbox link to a 1, people can download it directly instead of having to open it in Dropbox. This also allows people who don't have a Dropbox account themselves to still download the music pack.

(I also learned that here on the forums for the first time ;) ).

25
Until now, in the editor, the background of a chosen tileset was also applied to the images of the terrain and object pieces on the panel at the bottom of the screen.

The newest version of the editor seems to have a slightly different approach to background selection again. When designing levels with very dark terrain pieces, like L2 Shadow, these pieces are incredibly hard to see now because the background in the menu at the bottom is black, even if a brighter background has been selected for the level itself. Thus, it becomes quite tedious to select the correct terrain piece.

Therefore, it would be nice if whatever background is selected for the level landscape itself could also be transferred to the images of the terrain and object pieces on the panel.

26
In Development / A second gimmick pack?
« on: May 20, 2020, 06:33:34 PM »
WillLem has suggested making a collaborative follow-up pack to my NeoLemmix 1.43 pack Lemmicks - Lemmings with gimmicks! Since other users have uttered interest in such a pack as well, I thought I'd open a thread for any further discussion of such plans, so that considerations for future levels don't get mixed up with feedback to already existing levels in the Lemmicks pack thread.

Because the pack is supposed to be easier than Lemmicks, I would object to calling it Lemmicks 2. I seem to remember that one of the Lemmings Plus packs was deliberately easier than the rest (Lemmings Plus Omega?). So one could name it Lemmicks plus some word added that makes clear that it's easier than Lemmicks and therefore sensible to play it before Lemmicks.

WillLem has suggested the following rank structure:

Quote
Rank 1: Wrap (8 levels)
Rank 2: Backwards Walkers (8 levels)
Rank 3: No Gravity (8 levels)
Rank 4: Rising Water (8 levels)
Rank 5: Frenzy (8 levels)
Rank 6: SuperLemming (with Frenzy) (8 levels)
Rank 7: Karoshi (with Mixed Gimmicks) (16 levels)
Rank 8: Bedlam (Mixed Gimmicks) (16 levels)

My impression was that in Lemmicks, the gimmicks No Gravity, Frenzy, and Superlemming were not appreciated by a lot of players. Especially the combination of Superlemming and Frenzy.

Superlemming and Frenzy obviously add execution difficulty to a level without adding any puzzle difficulty (because Superlemming increases the entire game speed, rather than just the speed of walking lemmings).

No Gravity, in contrast, is a fair and predictable gimmick - it just works very differently from standard physics. Its behaviour is easy to predict, but hard to get used to.


I first of all wanted to test the waters regarding community interest in a second gimmick pack:

1) Would you be interested in gimmicks enough to deal with the inconveniences of NeoLemmix 1.43?
These are: no Fencers, Shimmiers, or Jumpers, no skill shadows, no clear-physics mode, no recolourings for athletes, no highlight lemming, no splat ruler, and no level selection menu (you can jump back and forth between levels using the arrow keys on the pre-level screens, you don't need the codes)

2) Which gimmicks are your personal favourites, so that you would like to see dedicated ranks for them?

3) Which gimmicks do you absolutely not like?

4) What length would be appropriate for such a gimmick pack in your opinion?

5) Should the pack start with a Basic rank without any gimmicks, to introduce the player to the changed physics in NeoLemmix 1.43? (The level sides and ceiling are solid in this version, only the bottom edge is deadly.)
Some people found this rank useful in Lemmicks; others were annoyed by it and wanted to get straight into the gimmicks right away. Of course, anyone would be free to skip the first rank if there is one without gimmicks.

6) Should the pack include a Chaos rank where gimmicks are randomly mixed (like Bedlam in Lemmicks)?

7) Should the pack contain ghost lemmings again (they ignore all objects, i.e. water, fire, traps, exits, pickups, buttons, teleporters etc., and intimidate other lemmings)? If so, do you regard them as a gimmick on their own? Or a general object type, like radiation / slowfreeze? Should ghosts appear in combination with the "ghosts on death" gimmick (=whenever a lemming dies, it turns into a ghost lemming)?


I think Wrap and Karoshi are the only gimmicks for which everyone can agree that they have great puzzle potential. ;)

27
Okay, so since IchoTolot suggested a combination of constructive and movement skill in the Jetboarder, I'll throw my hat into the ring by pulling this specific skill suggestion out of the joke-skills thread.

I'm going to start out by simply quoting what I wrote in the joke thread, and then add possible changes:

Quote
The Harpooner. This is a 3/4 joke, 1/4 serious suggestion ;) : A combination of several of the skills currently in the running for the 20th skill:

The lemming throws a modern-day whaling harpoon with a detonating end piece. This is a long, thin projectile that causes an explosion when it hits and has a rope attached to it.
- The shape of the harpoon would be identical to the spear of the Spear Thrower and could therefore be used as such.
- The detonation on impact creates a Bomber crater. This and the arc of motion would be that of a Mortar.
- Attached to the harpoon is a rope. This could serve as a surrogate Roper, but with a fixed arc - and thus potentially serve as a downward Builder.
- If you exceed the maximum length of the rope, the rope will tear, leaving behind just the harpoon with the detonating end piece. Now you have a genuine Mortar and Spear Thrower at once! ;) This projectile without the rope is going to continue on its parabolic trajectory until it hits terrain.
- If you shoot up into the ceiling, with thin-enough terrain, you can find Laser-Blaster-like applications.
- The Harpooner can kill Zombies.

I don't know, maybe this would be a valid compromise for a lot of people who are currently espousing either the Spear Thrower, the Mortar, the Laser Blaster, or a downward Builder? ???

It won't be a stand-in for the Slider, but it could fullfil a lot of these other purposes... while still being logically consistent (after all, these modern whaling harpoons with detonating end pieces do exist, unfortunately).

So, while IchoTolot's Jetboarder is a combination of constructive and movement skill, the Harpooner would either be
a) a combination of constructive and destructive skill (harpoon sticking in the wall + explosion)
b) a purely ranged constructive skill, like the Spear Thrower, but with the attached rope, it would be more like an L2 Roper, but with a fixed parabolic (=L2-Mortar-like) trajectory. In this case, the harpoon would not explode.

Zombie killing would be out of the question by now, since to my understanding, the community consensus was that
a) either a skill should kill Zombies, Neutrals, and regular lemmings alike, or none
b) a skill with the potential of killing regular lemmings was not appreciated, so Zombie-killer skills won't be happening

I've already asked IchoTolot for his opinion on this, since I remember he said he was quite fond of the L2 Roper in general. He merely said the explosion would be enough; a constructive skill with a rope would be nice though.

So a constructive skill with a rope attached to it that doesn't cause explosions (and also doesn't kill zombies, neither with the flying terain piece nor with any explosion) would be the most likely implementation of the skill proposed here.

At this point, if there's no explosion, we don't necessarily need to call the skill a Harpooner. I'd be fine with calling it the NeoLemmix Roper instead, too. In fact, I might actually prefer that, because then it would be the official implementation of another L2 skill, but in a form adapted to NeoLemmix.

Whether we would call it "Roper" or "Harpooner" should most likely just depend on the shape of the projectile:
a) if it's a long spear with a rope attached to it, calling it the Harpooner makes more sense
b) if it's a hook shaped like an anchor (which is what the L2 Roper uses), calling it the Roper would be more obvious



Possible applications:

- this skill would be more versatile than the regular L2 Spear Thrower, because the rope can serve as a bridge. At the same time, like in L2, the rope can tear
if you exceed its maximum length, so that only the projectile continues to fly. This projectile acts like the Spear Thrower's spear or the hook of the Roper.

- the rope can be used, among others, for downward Building, which is a feature many people are wishing for but which we don't have right now. At the same time, the way in which this downward Building is achieved is different enough to the Builder in order for it not to just be the same thing in reverse.

- the rope creates a bridge much more quickly than a Builder or Platformer. This way, this skill can be used for flow-control solutions more easily without always having to contain the crowd just to build a bridge. This is an application that often comes up for the L2 Glue Pourer, which has been ruled out, but the Harpooner / Roper could still perform that function. How many levels have you played where you need a bridge quickly, but can't contain the crowd? Stalling the rest of the crowd behind the Builder by spamming further Builders has certainly never been fun for me... ;)

- yet, the rope can of course also be used to contain crowds, just like Builders and Platformers

- the skill would not be as overpowered as the L2 Roper, because it's harder to aim. Thanks to skill shadows, you can predict the trajectory once the lemming is in its designated target position. (Memorising a projectile's trajectory can be difficult though, especially during "mental pathfinding" at the beginning of a level, i.e. before the crowd is actually released.)

- the Mortar-like parabolic trajectory would allow a certain amount of "aiming" though by varying the distance to the target and paying attention to the skill shadow accordingly:
The harpoon / hook flies upwards first - if it hits a ceiling now, the rope creates a ramp to that ceiling. When the harpoon / hook comes down again and hits terrain at about the same level as the lemming throwing it, you end up with a more or less flat, Platformer-like bridge. When the harpoon / hook falls further below the altitude of the lemming performing the skill, this is where you get the downward ramp that a downward Builder would create.

- whether the rope tears or not is not based on whether the harpoon / hook flies up or down, but simply on how far away (in pixels) from the throwing lemming it gets. The exact maximum length can be debated; it should probably be longer than a single Platformer, but shorter than two Platformers.

- the limiting factor of this skill would thus be its range. It's a somewhat omnidirectional constructive skill, but you can't chain several Harpooners / Ropers to each other as easily as you can do it with Builders and Platformers. Additionally, it's easier to prevent backroutes than with the L2 Roper, because you can shape the terrain in such a way that e.g. there isn't even enough space for the harpoon / hook to fly upwards, so you also can't turn it into a horizontal or downward bridge either, because the projectile already gets stuck earlier.



I may have been fervently opposing IchoTolot on the Spear Thrower and Mortar recently, but know that I'm not at all opposed to projectile skills in general - especially the constructive ones! ;)

The L2 Archer and Roper are two of my favourite skills from the pack. Now that we do know double-assignment skills won't come to NeoLemmix (i.e. no "click the lemming, click the target direction"), for the Archer I don't see a way to make it work "unaimed", i.e. with just a single assignment. Also, the Archer doesn't have a rope attached to it, so building bridges with it is similarly difficult to creating one with the Spear Thrower, or, in NeoLemmix, making a Stoner staircase.

For the Roper however, it did come up in discussions that this could be the final skill if we find a way to make it work without double assignment. This is my suggestion on how to do it. ;)

28
Closed / [Discussion][Player] New skill: Laserer
« on: April 10, 2020, 11:14:06 PM »
Apparently, according to namida, the Laser Blaster got the most votes in our recent poll and was thus moved to the "strong contenders" list for the 20th and final skill, together with the Slider and the projectile skills. So let's discuss it's potential separately from the constructive projectile (Spear Thrower) and destructive projectile skills (Bazooker / Mortar).

For those who don't know: The Laser Blaster shoots a straight line upwards that destroys terrain, creating a perfectly vertical shaft like the Digger, but from below. Steel stops the laser beam, as it stops any other destructive skill. While actual Laser Beams are endless, in Lemmings 2: The Tribes the Laser Blaster does have a maximum range beyond which it just stops naturally, whether there is steel, terrain, or empty space.



Personally, I honestly think the Laser Blaster has more puzzle potential than the Bazooker and Mortar. ;) Let me illustrate why:

Possible applications for the Laser Blaster include
  • the standard: send a pioneer ahead, blast the crowd out from below (see Lemmings 2: The Tribes)
  • the setup: create a shaft from below that Climbers can use in the following
  • the setup: make a Stacker tower Climber-friendly from the rough side (since several stacks can never be placed exactly on top of each other): Have a Laser Blaster approach from the other side and cut off the protruding edges!
  • the setup: use 2-3 Laser Blasters right next to each other to create a shaft wide enough for other lemmings to build / jump / reach (Shimmier) / glide through (the latter with updrafts); for an application of this, see the Lemmings 2 level "Evolution of Lemmings" from the Cavelem tribe, or "Spinny Thang" from the Shadow tribe
  • the setup: cut through a pioneer's Platformer or Builder bridge from below to prevent the crowd from following the pioneer
  • affecting terrain at a distance: dent the ceiling to make a Shimmier fall down
  • affecting terrain at a distance: create a Digger-like holding pit for the crowd, but from below! How you could prevent the crowd from falling all the way through the shaft would depend on its width - if it's quite thin, a Stoner would suffice; otherwise, a Platformer or Builder might be needed in addition. But Digger pits also require at least one other skill aside from the Digger to create (unless they are created by digging into steel).
  • affecting terrain at a distance: free a Blocker from (far) below, rather than having to bash / fence / mine right beneath him
  • affecting terrain at a distance: if a Laser Blaster can shoot through objects, i.e. including water, he could create a shaft through water behind or on-terrain, which Swimmers could then swim up through :thumbsup:
  • affecting terrain at a distance: create a lethal-drop shaft for Zombies - such a splat-height drop will at the same time usually be long enough to allow the Laser Blaster to walk away safely before the first Zombie falls through the shaft, so that the Zombie doesn't touch the Laser Blaster's head and infect him



The Laser Blaster is essentially a combination of the much-desired upward Digger (previously named Tunneler / Driller / Twister, i.e. an upward Digger that takes the lemming performing the skill with itself) and the ranged destructive skills Bazooker / Mortar. Thus, it combines the added potential of both!

Bazooker and Mortar are essentially just non-lethal Bombers at a distance. The distance aspect in and of itself isn't an advantage over the Laser Blaster. Also, since the crater they produce just has the size of a slightly larger Bomber crater, the impact they can have on terrain is minor. I generally have a hard time putting Bombers to good use (in contrast to Stoners, which are much more powerful!). But when I do, it usually involves falling Bombers, or Bombers otherwise not standing on solid ground. Bazooker and Mortar would always have to be performed standing on solid ground.
Thus, the distance aspect would basically just fill in the role that the option of assigning the skill while falling gives to the Bomber. This point also applies to the Spear Thrower when compared to the Stoner, in my opinion. (The only application of the Spear Thrower I've seen so far, which was in Lemmings 2, was on the Space level "The Lunar Olympics", where it's used precisely in the same fashion where we would use a Stoner in NeoLemmix. You could basically replicate that level with a Stoner pickup skill at the end of the level; this would still require you to send a pioneer ahead to collect that skill, so that you can't just assign a Stoner right at the beginning - but the throwing-from-a-distance part wouldn't be necessary for the solution).

Meanwhile, an upward Digger would just be another distructive skill that takes the lemming with it - especially if it were set up in such a way that not only Climbers, but also regular Walkers could still make use of the shaft. This would be the case with a steep but not vertical shaft that basically forces the lemmings passing through it to do constant 6-pixel-ascensions. The resulting shaft would still be slightly diagonal, basically making the upward Digger much less different from the already existing Fencer skill.

The Laser Blaster would add the complete novelty of being able to alter terrain at a distance in general, while still being able to affect large chunks of terrain comparable to the other non-lethal destructive skills (Basher, Miner, Digger, Fencer). It would also add a new direction of movement that so far doesn't exist at all for destructive skills.



Overall, while others have convinced me of the Slider's puzzle potential and its countless interactions with Climbers, Jumpers, and Shimmiers make my head spin enough with new and creative level ideas for it to probably still be my favourite - the Laser Blaster was my original first choice. And I think I'd still be happy if we got the Laser Blaster instead of the Slider! :thumbsup:

The case for the Laser Blaster contributing more novelty to NeoLemmix than the Slider, especially given that it's a ranged skill, can certainly be made, in my opinion. ;)

29
Closed / [Suggestion][Player] One-way up and down force fields
« on: April 10, 2020, 02:21:51 PM »
Force fields so far only exist for left and right. The need for equivalents for up and down first arose for me when trying to design Swimmer puzzles:

1) Since Swimmers always float to the top of a water area, a one-way down force field would limit this automatic ascension while still allowing Swimmers do dive down through this field from the top.

This would make the Swimmer skill much more versatile, since it would allow them to navigate through water-filled corridors more easily, using sloped ceilings to get down, while the one-way down fields would prevent them from automatically shooting back up again as soon as there's no slope.

Since some have criticised the Swimmer as being a somewhat limited skill, I think this would be a great opportunity to increase the design space of this skill without actually introducing anything new - just by combining two existing elements (the Swimmer plus force fields).

But of course, there are also other uses for these up and down force fields.

2) Specifically, one-way up fields would allow a lemming to build / climb / jump / glide through a gap without allowing him to get back down again (to free the crowd or similar). One-way up fields would prevent lemmings from falling through, meaning lemmings could walk on top of them like on terrain and other lemmings could ascend through them from below. In contrast to terrain, destructive skills obviously can't remove one-way up fields.

3) With one-way down fields (outside the Swimmer application), you could allow lemmings to fall into pits that they can't easily climb or build out of again.

The general idea of all one-way fields is to basically act like half-permeable terrain - a barrier that you can move through easily in one direction as if it wasn't there, but that reliably holds everything back that tries to move in the opposite direction.

30
The Spear Thrower skill from Lemmings 2: The Tribes has recently come up again in the debate about what should be the final skill, as you might remember. Since we had debates about the potential of the Slider and the Runner, I think it's only fair to have this discussion about the Spear Thrower as well (even if I myself may not be a particular fan of it, I'm still the one opening this thread).

In principle, I do like the idea of creating terrain at a distance - that's why I'm grouping the "range constructive skills" from L2 together here. But my favourite ways to accomplish this in L2 are the Archer and the Roper. Since both require double assignment (select the lemming, select the trajectory), these have been ruled out by namida, unless we would find a way to give them a fixed angle at which they operate.

This leaves the Thrower (who throws a little ball that sticks to walls) or the Spear Thrower (who throws a horizontal line with a slight angle and 1 pixel in width).

(Range destructive skills, such as the Bazooker / Mortar and Laser Blaster, should be discussed in a separate thread, because at this point we have to assume we're only going to get either one or the other, since there is only one final skill left that is supposed to be added to NeoLemmix before namida wraps it up.)


I've been playing around with the Spear Thrower a little yesterday, and here's one interesting thing I've found out about how it behaves in L2:

- if you throw a spear into a wall and then climb it up, the lemming will actually climb through the spear from the bottom; but when he hits the ceiling and falls back down, he will walk on top of the spear


This can create some interesting dynamics: So far, when you want to turn a Climber around on a wall, you either have to bomb into the wall or stone at the top. Both requires another lemming to make it to that same wall, either by also being a Climber, or by falling down said wall from above. Whatever you choose, if we take the Stoner for comparison (since it is also a constructive skill), the barrier it creates is identical from both sides: Once there is a Stoner on the wall, Climbers will land on top of it when falling back down from the top, but they also will no longer be able to get up this wall from below, because the Stoner makes the wall uneven.

The question is: Would a lemming climbing through a 1-pixel-thick piece of terrain (as the Spear Thrower creates it) be consistent with current NeoLemmix physics? ???

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