Lemmings Forums
Other Lemmings Projects => SuperLemmix => Topic started by: WillLem on May 01, 2023, 01:35:10 AM
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When converting level packs from NeoLemmix to SuperLemmix (which should ideally only be done either by the original author, or with their permission), there are several significant physics differences which may affect certain levels. These levels may need to be modified or even replaced altogether if a conversion is to be successful.
To name a few:
1) Direct drop is now possible (aka lemmings can fall directly into the Exit from a great height, as long as they hit the Exit trigger before they hit the ground). This also allows mid-air exiting.
2) Jumpers and Reachers can now jump into a mid-air Exit.
3) Sides are solid rather than deadly, and the top of the level is open to allow Jumpers and Projectile skills to continue their arc of trajectory back into the level. Other lems will stop what they're doing if they reach the top, and either walk forwards (if possible) or turn around if there's a terrain/steel barrier.
4) Shimmiers can be assigned to Climbers at any time.
5) The Laserer's range is now 3200px instead of 112px (so, it's effectively infinite given the 2400 x 2400 limit on NeoLemmix levels)
6) The water graphics from the following styles have been changed:
orig_fire water is now "lava," an unswimmable object which triggers the burner animation
orig_marble water is now "poison", a swimmable object which changes the lems into zombies
ohno_bubble water is now "blasticine", an unswimmable object which triggers the explosion animation (no surrounding terrain destruction occurs)
ohno_rock water is now is now "vinewater", an unswimmable object which triggers the vinetrap animation
It's very quick and easy to replace the graphics if needed, I've posted instructions for how to do so here (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6315.msg98721#msg98721).
If I think of anything else I'll post it here, but these are the main things which will affect level solutions between the engines.
If porting one of your NeoLemmix levels to SuperLemmix, I would advise the following:
1) If the level contains Stoners, swap these out for either Blockers, Freezers or Stackers depending on how they're used in the level. For most levels, this shouldn't affect the intended solution too much (although it will obviously have some impact, particularly if the level relies on pixel/timing-precision).
2) If the Exit can be accessed from directly overhead (albeit from a great height), consider blocking this route off if you don't want players to able to drop the lems directly into the Exit. Otherwise, leave it as an alternative solution for players to find :)
3) If the Exit is in midair, consider whether you want it to be accessible by any of the following: Jumpers, Reachers, Floaters, Fallers. If so, leave it, if not then you might need to fix the level to prevent this.
4) If the level contains Laserers, then tbh there's not a great deal you can do if the solution relies on the original limited range. I would consider redesigning or replacing the level in this case.
5) Any levels containing the water graphic from orig_fire and/or orig_marble will need to have the graphic replaced with orig_fire (lava) and/or orig_marble (poison), respectively. I've posted some step-by-step instructions for how to do this here (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6258.msg98721#msg98721).
With all of this said, of course it would be great to have some NeoLemmix packs ported over to SuperLemmix, and I'll do what I can to help anyone taking on this task. But, it may be even better to create new levels which make use of the new features and mechanics.
I'll be essentially re-writing my own packs for this platform (eventually!). Some levels will copy over nicely, others will need to be redesigned or replaced entirely.
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Thanks for the info!
I already edit the level files to swap different abilities, so these differences are fine.
I saw a post about reviving Super Lemmini. I think it would be better if SuperLemmix could be compatible with its level packs. Which isn't too important since I've found all my Lemmini packs for NeoLemmix so far anyway. But I never cared for the Java thing and the lack of full screen.
Great job with Super Lemmix!!! The little graphical changes are great too!
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Another thing to mention is swimming in Lava/Acid was allowed in NeoLemmix and is not allowed in SuperLemmix, it affects one of my SEB Lems levels.
The Stoner thing isn't a huge fix, it only affects 45 of my levels across all 4 of my NeoLemmix packs (SEB Lems, MegSEGAbytes, Modular Lems and Gotta Go Fast). So that's 45 out of 399 levels, a little over 11% of my levels.
Didn't consider the Direct drop thing though so that may result in more fixes also.
I'll eventually get around to fixing things, I use Stoners in weird ways so I don't think a skill swap is going to suffice, if worse comes to worse though, I'll just not port the level over.
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Another thing to mention is swimming in Lava/Acid was allowed in NeoLemmix and is not allowed in SuperLemmix
Yes, good shout. This results from changing these from being "water" to being "fire," but any levels containing the objects will now have an actual water graphic displayed instead. I've added this one to the list, coz it will likely affect everyone who's ever made a level in orig_fire or orig_marble.
The fix is easy, as well. It can be done for multiple levels at once using FIF in a text Editor. Here are some step-by-step instructions. (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6258.msg98721#msg98721)
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OK, so you've opened an orig_fire and/or orig_marble and/or ohno_bubble and/or ohno_rock level in SuperLemmix to find that the original water graphics have been replaced with a default water graphic which appears slightly too high...
This is because orig_fire's water object is now a fire object re-tited "lava", and orig_marble's water object is also now a fire object re-titled "poison." The graphics themselves are identical, but lems will now burn rather than drown when coming into contact with them (which obviously means that Swimmers can no longer traverse them!). Similarly, ohno_bubble's water object is now called "blasticine" and ohno_rock's water object is now called "vinewater" - both are new trap objects which trigger different animations (exploder and vinetrapper, respectively).
To counter this, all of these styles now have a default water object included (which can be traversed by Swimmers), but this will appear slightly out of place in ported levels because of the difference in size between the water graphics.
Not to worry, it's a quick and easy fix which can be applied to all fire, marble, bubble and rock levels in one go:
(Note that this fix will not work for levels which require Swimmers to be able to cross the water - apologies for any inconvenience caused by this, but in these cases it's best just to edit the levels manually. The following will work if the water objects are meant to be non-traversable, or if the level doesn't contain Swimmers):
Method 1: Use the SLX QuickMod Tool (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6339.msg102052#msg102052) to modify all water objects in an entire pack.
Or, Method 2:
1) If you haven't already, download Notepad++ (https://notepad-plus-plus.org/downloads/)
2) Ensure that you have a backup of the levels that you want to change, in case anything goes wrong with the following procedure
3) Place the folder with the levels you want to change into the SuperLemmix/levels directory - DO NOT perform this procedure with levels in the NeoLemmix directory
4) Open Notepad++ and navigate to Search > Find in Files (Ctrl + Shift + F)
5) In "Find what", type or copypaste the following (note the 3 spaces between "\n" and "PIECE"):
STYLE orig_fire\r\n PIECE water
6) In "Replace With", type or copypaste the following:
STYLE orig_fire\r\n PIECE lava
7) In "Filters", type the following:
.nxlv
8) In "Directory", click the button with the 3 dots [...] and browse to the folder containing the levels you want to change (it should be in your SuperLemmix/levels directory, as per step 2)
9) Under "Search Mode" (at the bottom of the form), check 'Regular Expression'
10) At the right of the form, make sure that 'In all subfolders' and 'In hidden folders' are checked
The form should now look like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/xAMBWk4.png)
11) Hit [Replace in Files] and wait for the process to complete (it should only take a few seconds)
12) Open one of the relevant fire levels, and you should see that the water object has been replaced by a lava object (which is identical to the original orig_fire water object)
13) Repeat the first 11 steps but type 'orig_marble' instead of 'orig_fire' in steps 4 & 5, and 'poison' instead of 'lava' in step 5.
13b) Repeat the first 11 steps but type 'ohno_bubble' instead of 'orig_fire' in steps 4 & 5, and 'blasticine' instead of 'lava' in step 5.
13c) Repeat the first 11 steps but type 'ohno_rock' instead of 'orig_fire' in steps 4 & 5, and 'vinewater' instead of 'lava' in step 5.
14) Open one of the relevant marble/bubble/rock levels, and you should see that the water object has been replaced by a poison object (which is identical to the original water object from the relevant style)
All done! :)
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This page needs updated to include the new vinewater and blastecine.
I love Super Lemmix 2.1 so far, but the new waters broke the pack I'm playing through currently "World Tour".
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Here's my notes on updating all four waters:
However, I updated the pack you're playing (World Tour) using the above method and there are a handful of levels that did not update.
Most did however. I love rock and roll, we're not going to take it, and more needed manually fixed. No idea why.
Here's the basic info...
Search and replace text:
STYLE orig_fire\r\n PIECE water
to
STYLE orig_fire\r\n PIECE lava
STYLE orig_marble\r\n PIECE water
to
STYLE orig_marble\r\n PIECE poison
STYLE ohno_bubble\r\n PIECE water
to
STYLE ohno_bubble\r\n PIECE blasticine
STYLE ohno_rock\r\n PIECE water
to
STYLE ohno_rock\r\n PIECE vinewater
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I had quite a minute getting World tour to work properly...
I've attached the full updated level pack as well as the missing styles here.
It's all go now!
P.S. A few styles asked to overwrite, I chose No.
P.S.S. If this is the wrong place to post this, please move it.
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I had quite a minute getting World tour to work properly...
I've attached the full updated level pack as well as the missing styles here.
It's all go now!
P.S. A few styles asked to overwrite, I chose No.
P.S.S. If this is the wrong place to post this, please move it.
As I see packs are starting to get converted:
Please try to ask the original author first if they approve of a conversion before releasing stuff!
If they are indeed responding on the forum of course. Maybe they are even willing to consider an official conversion by themself?
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This page needs updated to include the new vinewater and blastecine.
Done, thanks for the heads up.
I love Super Lemmix 2.1 so far, but the new waters broke the pack I'm playing through currently "World Tour".
Glad to know you're enjoying it!
I'd exercise caution when playing through any pack in SuperLemmix that hasn't been specifically made for it (which, so far, is basically any NeoLemmix pack) - you will almost certainly encounter issues sooner or later, especially given the physics differences.
I apologise for any inconvenience caused. Really, we need to do some official conversions of a few Forum-favourites (I'm thinking GeoffLems, NepsterLems, CasuaLemmings, ROTL, definitely at least one of Flopsy's, one of NieSch's (although I'm hoping he'll continue to make OG content for SuperLemmix!), Lemmings Plus I, II and III if namida wouldn't mind, and maybe even one of Icho's as long as we keep the Timebombers away from his levels!) ;)
I had quite a minute getting World tour to work properly...
I've attached the full updated level pack as well as the missing styles here.
Which styles needed updating? I thought that styles pack is the latest available... if not, please let me know what's missing and I'll get it updated ASAP.
Thanks for doing the conversion work btw :thumbsup:
As Icho said though, please ask the pack author's permission to convert their packs to SuperLemmix, wherever possible. From what I know of Strato, I'm sure he'll be fully up for his packs being available in SuperLemmix, but it's still better to make sure beforehand even if only because they might want to do the conversion themselves.
Exceptions to this would be packs like GeoffLems and NepsterLems where the pack authors are now inactive on the Forums and have been for a good few years. Given that these packs were made in the traditional style (Classic 8 skillsets, probably Timebomber-friendly) and for older engines, I'm sure these authors would agree that SuperLemmix is a good fit for them anyway.
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Exactly what Icho and WillLem have said in regards to getting permission from still active authors. In this way, there won't be any problems later, especially in the case of an author who isn't ok with it. Some are ok with it, some aren't. Even if you think the author won't have issues with a pack of theirs getting converted, it's still better to be safe than sorry and ask, as that's the polite thing to do and is respecting the author and his/her content.
Just to clear any doubt, if there's ever any future pack from me (this is neither confirmation nor the possibility of one ruled out), I'm perfectly fine with it being converted to another engine, but I still would like it if the user asks me for permission first! Even if I say "no," I will appreciate the fact that the user at least asked for my permission.
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I don't have many levels out there, but I should probably comment on this here:
I discourage (but won't outright ban) unofficial SL conversions of my content. Because of the extensive number of differences, I simply cannot guarantee compatibility.
If you choose to port regardless, here are my boundaries:
- You must make it clear that it is an unofficial port, that is
- I wasn't the one who did the conversion
- Issues with the conversion should be reported to its maintainer and not to me (unless those issues are present in the originals)
- The levels were intended for their original engine (presumably NeoLemmix)
- If the level does not have a time limit, do not add one. If WillLem culls the infinite time option: Set the time limit to the maximum value allowed.
- If the level is made for an engine that requires time limits (and thus has a time limit), the time limit should be removed.
- I don't have any worthwhile vanilla Lemmix content that has tight time limits, so don't bother guessing if it should have one or not.
- If the level was made for an engine that does not require time limits, then you can keep existing limits (there probably won't be any levels like this)
- If in doubt as to whether the level is intended to have a time limit: just remove it
- Always use untimed bombers, even if it's old Lemmix content that would have had timed ones when it was created.
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If WillLem culls the infinite time option
FWIW, I have no intention whatsoever to do this. It's only ever likely to happen if a significant community forms around SuperLemmix use, and the people in it want this to happen. Even then, it wouldn't be a given.
Infinite time is actually a feature I strongly support: it allows replay value, multiple intended solution possibilities, as well as non-intended challenge solutions which might otherwise be impossible with a time limit, and it allows time limits to become all the more potent a game feature when they are activated.
My view is more that infinite time absolutely should exist, but not to the exclusion (or even discouragement) of time limits.
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I have downloaded the latest version of Superlemmix , and the styles collection, and I have tried my pack (Mikes Lemmings Superlemmix version).
Unfortunately, I have found , that several of the levels won't load , because of missing tiles/tilesets in the styles collection.
These levels are Wild 2, 6, 7 , Wicked 1, 5, 7, 8 , and Bonus 2.
I have checked the styles collection, and it seems that, several tilesets, are missing , like most of the Rayman , or LemRunner tilesets.
Unfortunately for several of the levels , it will be difficult to specify which tilesets are missing, because I use stuff from multiple different tilesets, in order to create them.
For example, for one of these, I had used stuff from 14 different tilesets, in order to create it, including , the "Turrican special" , tileset , that I had made it , especially for that level , and I had submitted it for the Neolemmix styles collection.
I have checked the number of styles in the Superlemmix styles folder and their number is 236.
In comparison, the number of styles , in the styles folder of my Neolemmix installation, is 261.
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I have downloaded the latest version of Superlemmix , and the styles collection, and I have tried my pack (Mikes Lemmings Superlemmix version).
Unfortunately, I have found , that several of the levels won't load , because of missing tiles/tilesets in the styles collection.
These levels are Wild 2, 6, 7 , Wicked 1, 5, 7, 8 , and Bonus 2.
I have checked the styles collection, and it seems that, several tilesets, are missing , like most of the Rayman , or LemRunner tilesets.
Unfortunately for several of the levels , it will be difficult to specify which tilesets are missing, because I use stuff from multiple different tilesets, in order to create them.
For example, for one of these, I had used stuff from 14 different tilesets, in order to create it, including , the "Turrican special" , tileset , that I had made it , especially for that level , and I had submitted it for the Neolemmix styles collection.
I have checked the number of styles in the Superlemmix styles folder and their number is 236.
In comparison, the number of styles , in the styles folder of my Neolemmix installation, is 261.
I had the same problem, but I solved the issue by simply copy/paste the style folder from my NL directory to my SLX one and select "don't replace."
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In comparison, the number of styles , in the styles folder of my Neolemmix installation, is 261.
Apologies for the inconvenience here; I'm going to eventually look at getting the styles manager up and running again, but this will require paying for a server, so it's only worth doing if SuperLemmix generates a significant user-base.
If you're happy to send me a link to your copy of the styles, I'll add the missing ones to the SuperLemmix styles download so that it's as up-to-date as it can be.
Thanks!
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It may be that this is something you are not willing to consider, but I thought I should throw it out there.
NL has, from the beginning, been extremely permissive about users making their own styles. This has led to a situation where, not only are there 261 styles to manage, but even packs like Lemmings Cranium and GemLems that are predominantly classic-styles packs will have the occasional level that borrows a piece or two from any of the styles on the list... with the result that although styles are nominally an opt-in feature, the user is obliged to keep all styles installed and up-to-date.
For a new engine, you might consider being more restrictive about which styles are available.
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For a new engine, you might consider being more restrictive about which styles are available.
I originally thought that as well, but it's only natural for people to want to make SuperLemmix their own, and that means - in most cases - pulling all the styles across. It feels better to embrace this and try my best to keep on top of the occasional inevitable styles issue.
Also, I can only think of two ways to be "restrictive" about this, and I don't really like either of them:
1) Only allow certain styles to be used, and hard-bake these into the code.
This would require a lot of tiresome grunt work to set up, and would put a lot of people off creating content for SuperLemmix, neither of which are things I'm particularly inclined to do.
2) Cherry-pick a handful of styles, and only provide these with SuperLemmix. All others must be shared and maintained independently.
This is better, but how do we decide which styles to use? Obviously I'd want to include my own, and even at that point it already feels elitist and exclusive even before I've added anyone else's to the list. I suppose that I could make it "only styles from anyone who's currently active on the forums, and has already created content for SuperLemmix." That would solve the "exclusivity" problem, but then there's nothing to prevent the styles list from growing exponentially again.
Thoughts?
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In comparison, the number of styles , in the styles folder of my Neolemmix installation, is 261.
Apologies for the inconvenience here; I'm going to eventually look at getting the styles manager up and running again, but this will require paying for a server, so it's only worth doing if SuperLemmix generates a significant user-base.
If you're happy to send me a link to your copy of the styles, I'll add the missing ones to the SuperLemmix styles download so that it's as up-to-date as it can be.
Thanks!
Ok! I have temporarly uploaded in my dropbox , as a zip file, my styles folder.
Here is the link : https://www.dropbox.com/s/isjkg6pbqel70ke/styles.zip?dl=1
As for allowing a limited amound of tilesets for Superlemmix , tht would be "bad news" , for level designers like me , that use combination of multiple tilests for their levels.
Personally, for my more recent levels, I have abandoned the "use a single tileset for your level" approach, and for my latest levels, I have used stuff from multiple different tilests , in order to create each of them , or I have even used tiles from different tilesets each other, combined with the group function of the editor, in order to craft my own "custom pieces" , to use them as 'building blocks' , for my levels.
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Here is a link for my dropbox , which contains, the updated Superlemmix styles : https://www.dropbox.com/s/41cyry82j6fbk9a/Superlemmix_styles.zip?dl=1
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Brilliant @Turrican, thanks for this :thumbsup:
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Here are my Styles for Neolemmix (More complete one). It has Arty's Artlems, All of Gigalems planet and planet2 sets, Nin10doadicts for his Casuallemmings 2.0, Flopsys' GGF pack styles, Mantha's TV lems, all of Stratos sets(General_md, and all his recolored lemmings), Glitchapp's styles (fishcoralreef, fishfilletscity, and underwaterdivingstyle). Now added Nessy's Sanctuary style. Also did a redo of the styles.ini so it's more organized (Alphabetized). Spent a few days on this.
Here is my link for my more complete set: https://www.mediafire.com/file/7cvy80nhkfgh3j2/styles.zip/file
also here is my link for my sounds which has Nin10doaddicts Casuallemmings 2.0 sounds (ie: the shark and cattrap sounds),
sounds for Flopsys' GGF pack, and sounds for his all his Festive Millas packs including his sampler pack.
https://www.mediafire.com/file/8gzz28av7thpbzk/sound.zip/file
Also did the same for the Superlemmix Version, but will wait on WillLem to see if he wants me to P.M. my link for the SLX one so he can look it over since I added back the Millas and Soniclems. He can then repost it for SLX with or without the Millas and Soniclems since some of the new sprites still need to be fixed (IE: Dangler, Looker,etc).
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Thanks for this @Eric, I've started a DM group on Discord for this so that we can get all the styles together in one place and do a comb of them, make sure everything has what it needs to work in SLX, and then we can get the completed folder released.
Any styles that will require sprite updates (Millas, Soniclems, etc) will have to be sorted on a case-by-case basis.
Anyone who wants to be added to the Discord DM group, let me know. If you have resources to share, it will be very useful to have a chance to get everything together in one place rather than lots of sporadic shares here and there (which I imagine is what leads to styles issues in the first place, tbh!) - it's not an exclusive group, anyone who wants to join, has resources to share, or wants to get involved with helping to keep the resources up to date, is more than welcome. No amount of help with this is too small, so let me know if you'd like to be added.
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It's now possible to update all water objects in an entire pack using the SLX QuickMod Tool (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6339.msg102064#msg102064) - choose "Update Water Objects" and all water objects will be automatically converted to their SuperLemmix counterparts.
Note: this only works for orig and ohno styles; levels using custom styles will need to be updated manually using the instructions here (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6315.msg98721#msg98721).
Additionally, it's now also possible to use the SLX QuickMod tool to mass convert:
All Stoners to Freezers
All Bombers to Timebombers (and vice versa)