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Other Lemmings Projects => Lemmini => Topic started by: WillLem on May 21, 2021, 11:15:38 PM

Title: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[V1.3 - NEW UPDATE]
Post by: WillLem on May 21, 2021, 11:15:38 PM: (https://i.imgur.com/3StKOXH.png)

Download NepsterLems V1.3 (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5608.0;attach=17950)

Here it is, the wonderful Nepsterlems by Nepster - 111 levels of pure intricacy, excruciating logic and baffling genius. The maps are what draw me to this pack personally; Escheresque in their painstaking blend of artistic beauty and mathematical precision. It's definitely one of my favourite custom level packs; I will even endeavour to complete it at some point! :lemcat:

You are heartily encouraged to enjoy this pack in SuperLemmini; it's a classic-8 skills pack, all levels are in the L1 tilesets, so it's ideal for inclusion in your collection.

So, finally managed to finish this conversion! For some days, 29 of these levels would not open in the 1.43 Editor, so I could find no way to convert them to .ini for inclusion in the pack.

Then, I discovered that the levels would open in SuperLemmini itself; from there Turrican thankfully enlightened me (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5588.msg92139#msg92139) to the presence of the $external folder within Resources/levels, and - lo and behold - there were the levels as .ini files! :lemcat:

This essentially means that any level editor capable of creating .lvl files is compatible with SuperLemmini - but, that's a topic for another post! ;P

Original pack author: Nepster (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?action=profile;u=7)
Conversion by: WillLem (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?action=profile;u=271) with help from Turrican (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?action=profile;u=165)
Testing, replays & level fixes by: ericderkovits (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?action=profile;u=580)

SuperLemmini users: download the attached zip and extract it to Resources/levels.

NeoLemmix users: the NeoLemmix version of NepsterLems can be downloaded here (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2508.msg55767#msg55767).
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[Difficulty: Very Hard]
Post by: kaywhyn on May 22, 2021, 12:34:24 AM: Nice work! :thumbsup: However, it appears that there are some issues that haven't been taken care of. For example, in each of the levels, the fall distance is doubled the default. This was a problem that I needed to fix that was also present when I did the conversion of Deceit's Lemmings to Superlemmini. It was quite annoying, to say the least, since I needed to open each .ini file to do that.

The music is also set to the Cancan for every level :P Really, the same track all 111 times? Along that line, why are the .ini files not all in a folder? Not a huge problem, since one just needs to create a folder inside the levels folder where the person's Superlemmini directory is and then extract the .ini contents to it.

However, I believe mobius asked for the music pack that Nepster used for the pack some time ago, which namida was able to supply. I have the custom music as well if you would like that. Just need to open the NL version and put in the corresponding music track.

Finally, I only checked one level so far, and it appears that the traps don't work on Black Hole 1. I also ran into this problem when converting Deceit's Lemmings, although it concerns exits rather than the traps. I think all the traps worked, just the exit on some levels was either too high or too low so that lemmings wouldn't exit. Steel also didn't work on some levels. Fortunately, there was only one level that was rendered impossible when the steel didn't work. There are other levels that I tried getting the steel to work, but I just couldn't, particularly since the extremely old editor is very annoying to work with. Luckily, alternative solutions to those levels exist when solving.

Quote from: WillLem on May 21, 2021, 11:15:38 PM
I will even endeavour to complete it at some point! :lemcat:

Yes, I hope to complete the pack at some point as well. I'm looking at you, Black Hole 1 :evil: Just been taking a break from Lemmings in general for the past few weeks. I'll probably be back in about a week or so.
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[Difficulty: Very Hard]
Post by: ericderkovits on May 22, 2021, 08:01:02 PM: ok, there were alot of things to address in your Nepsterlems .ini files

1) many levels the traps didn't work as they needed adjustment (including black hole 1 as Kaywhyn stated)
2) many levels didn't show the OWW's (had to turn off terrain rending momentarily to see them(object rendering on) Also fixed level 406.ini (Divide and Conquer) to show the OWW's only on the terrain as your .ini the OWW was NOT on terrain only(wasn't correct and looked ugly) compare to the neolemmix's
version that Icho played on his youtube channel of that level.
3) some levels had steel issues (IE: play level 8(comet-Tic-Tac-Toe) I used a digger on the steel right above the hatch. One isn't supposed to destroy steel.)
so I fixed the levels by turning on steel rending and placed steel in the levels wherever the level showed steel. The original .inis didn't show any steel in the
levels that had steel when turning on steel rendering.
4) also the fall heights are corrected(at 126 instead of double(252))

One thing I didn't do though was anything to the levelpack.ini (ie: your repeat of the cancan song needs to be fixed or used with custom music as Kaywhyn suggested).

I'm more than happy to help addressing any issues with the ini files as when I converted Icho's reunion to Superlemmini I spent a long time addressing issues with traps and a few things stated above in the Nepsterlems .ini files. Editing of packs(.ini's) takes a while to fix. One can't just convert it from the .lvl files and assume everything will be correct(ie fall heights, traps, exits, steel ,etc). So I spent some time with your .ini's to address these issues.
Of course if any other issues show up that maybe I missed, just give a shout and I'll help out with it.

So far I have replays for the 1st rank(comet) and will slowly get the remaining ones although will take a while since I've been doing other things.

I uploaded the fixed level .inis only (not including the levelpack.ini since it still needs to be fixed with the repeat of the cancan song.)
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[Difficulty: Very Hard]
Post by: kaywhyn on May 22, 2021, 09:20:07 PM: Yes, converting .lvl to .ini isn't as straightforward as a mass conversion and hoping that everything will be correct in Superlemmini. As I already pointed out, I still had to check everything for Deceit's Lemmings, and as it turned out there were still issues even though the conversions to .ini went fine: fall distance doubled the default, non-working steel on some levels, some exits too low/too high, and some non-working traps. Once I took care of the issues, then I released the conversion of the pack. Yes, it can be annoying to check everything, but it's a good practice to check to make sure everything is fine before release.

Most importantly, as eric has mentioned, Lemmings Reunion was, by far, the most difficult pack to convert. It took him a very long time, almost 1.5 months IIRC. I can attest to this, as I have read his copious notes on every level he edited. I provided input, assistance, and replays wherever I could if there were any I thought would be of interest for him when converting/editing. Also, there are some styles that didn't play too nicely, such as the L2 and Castle and City and Sega tilesets. And of course, there was also the annoying mild slopes to bash which doesn't work in Superlemmini, as well as climbers being able to climb past builder walls, and climbing through terrain that they shouldn't, such as crosses from the Dirt tileset. Now that Tsyu has returned after so long, perhaps he can tell us if these issues were intentional or if he agrees they should be fixed.

Needless to say, make sure to take your time, as converting any pack to Superlemmini takes a while. Doubly for Nepsterlems, since it has double the amount of levels that Deceit's Lemmings does and therefore there are way more things to check. However, as this was the first Neolemmix custom pack you converted to Superlemmini, you still did great for a first attempt. It's likely that you simply weren't aware of the issues that can result from converting.
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[V1.1 - UPDATED]
Post by: WillLem on May 23, 2021, 06:00:40 PM: Thanks guys, I'll have a look at these issues over the next few days. The original download has been removed in the meantime 8-)

Incidentally...

Quote from: kaywhyn on May 22, 2021, 12:34:24 AM
the fall distance is doubled the default. This was a problem that I needed to fix that was also present when I did the conversion of Deceit's Lemmings to Superlemmini. It was quite annoying, to say the least, since I needed to open each .ini file to do that.

This can actually be done very quickly for multiple levels at once using Notepad++ and RegEx commands. I'll post a tutorial sometime soon :lemcat:
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[V1.1 - UPDATED]
Post by: WillLem on May 23, 2021, 06:08:39 PM: Version 1.1 full-pack update now uploaded to original post (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5608.msg92152#msg92152).

Changelog:

:lemming: All levels now have the correct fall distance of 126 px

:lemming: The music has been set to the standard rotation of the 17 tracks from L1 as opposed to every level being the "Cancan" music (NOTE: a future add-on will supply the original NepsterLems music)

:lemming: The levels are now zipped to a folder-within-a-folder for easier extraction to Resources/levels

:lemming: Traps now work on all levels

:lemming: Steel is now set to Autosteel on all levels (this will need to be modified again in a future update, since Tsyu is updating the Steel rendering indexes in the next version of SuperLemmini)

:lemming: All OWW objects now appear, and work, as expected

Many thanks to ericderkovits for providing many of these fixes, and kaywhyn also for highlighting these issues.

Please note that the pack will also be updated for the next version of SuperLemmini, so it'll be worth checking back again at that point to keep your version of the pack fully up to date ;P

Thanks for playing!
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[V1.1 - UPDATED]
Post by: ericderkovits on May 23, 2021, 07:48:21 PM: Great Job WillLem.

I again noticed one tiny problem with the level (Neutron Star 7-Divide and Conquer-406.ini). A tiny piece of grey terrain had a small gap in the rightmost section of lemmings. After seeing this level on Icho's Youtube channel, there shouldn't be that gap otherwise the lemmings will fall thru it.

So I closed that gap(as it shows in the level) with the needed small piece of matched grey terrain(compare original 406.ini to that level on Icho's playlist of Nepsterlems). It shows there shouldn't be that gap. I don't know why it removed that piece when Superlemmini converted the .lvl to .ini.

Anyways here is the fixed .ini for Neutron Star 7(Divide and Conquer).
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[V1.2 - UPDATED]
Post by: WillLem on May 24, 2021, 11:02:23 AM: Thanks Eric, well spotted!

I've updated the OP (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5608.msg92152#msg92152) with V1.2, which includes this level fix.
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[V1.2 - UPDATED]
Post by: ericderkovits on June 04, 2021, 09:11:06 PM: Hi WillLem

There were still issues with the levels with the levels which I fixed (also have a full set of replays now thanks to Icho and Josh as Nepsterlems was too difficult)

There were some levels with minor terrain changes, some with minor screen size adjustments (so level will play correctly) and a some with backroute fixes and added timers which I fixed as in NL's V2.00 of the pack)

So I have a .rar of the fixed pack and a .rar of the replays.

If you want I can P.M. you my fixed pack and replays to see that the levels now play correctly.

After these fixes there shouldn't be any more issues.
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[V1.2 - UPDATED]
Post by: WillLem on June 05, 2021, 03:22:32 AM: Quote from: ericderkovits on June 04, 2021, 09:11:06 PM
So I have a .rar of the fixed pack and a .rar of the replays.

If you want I can P.M. you my fixed pack and replays to see that the levels now play correctly.

After these fixes there shouldn't be any more issues.

Brilliant, thanks Eric. You're a legend :thumbsup:

Please do send the levels over; I'll likely go in and remove all of the 100 minute timers as well. I've given you a co-credit as well since you've ended up doing a lot of the testing and fixing work for this pack :lemcat:
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[V1.2 - UPDATED]
Post by: ericderkovits on June 06, 2021, 02:20:59 AM: ok here is one change to Blackhole 15 (Hanglem.ini). I forgot to lock the release rate as in NL's version of the level which is locked.

In the Hanglem.ini file I just added the line

lockReleaseRate = true (so now the RR is locked at 50 in SL)

just replace the old one with the uploaded one and place in the Nepsterlems level folder

As I never fiddled with the RR in my replay, so it doesn't affect my replay.

And yes one can lock the release rate in Superlemmini. I had to read the doc file in SL's Level Format.txt to see that one can. It mentions it's default though is false, so I had to add the line lockReleaseRate = true(to Hanglem.ini) to get the RR lock for the level.
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[V1.2 - UPDATED]
Post by: WillLem on June 06, 2021, 07:52:47 PM: Quote from: ericderkovits on June 06, 2021, 02:20:59 AM
ok here is one change to Blackhole 15 (Hanglem.ini)

Good timing, I'm just about to upload the fixes :lemcat:

Quote from: ericderkovits on June 06, 2021, 02:20:59 AM
And yes one can lock the release rate in Superlemmini

Good to know! :thumbsup:

It may be worth making a post for all of the possible variables such as this that can be added to a .ini file...
Title: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems [V1.3 UPDATE]
Post by: WillLem on June 06, 2021, 08:01:51 PM: Version 1.3 now available

Full credit to ericderkovits for supplying this update, which should hopefully eliminate all remaining issues with the pack.

:lemming: Download now includes a full set of replays by ericderkovits (with help from Icho and Josh)

:lemming: Minor terrain changes to some levels

:lemming: Minor screen size adjustments to some levels

:lemming: Backroute fixes

:lemming: Changes to timers and RR on levels which needed it

Head straight to the OP (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5608.msg92152#msg92152) to get the latest copy of NepsterLems for SuperLemmini!
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[V1.3 - NEW UPDATE]
Post by: kaywhyn on June 07, 2021, 12:39:09 AM: Since eric seems to be the most knowledgeable about the Superlemmini structure and seems to gladly jump at the chance of converting packs to the engine, that's why I told him he could convert Nepsterlems if he wanted to, particularly since I also mentioned that it simply uses the OL and ONML tilesets only :P Perhaps it wasn't at the top of his priority list?

In particular, there seems to always be something new to learn about Superlemmini. That locked RR was a great find! Good to know that SL does indeed support it.

Anyway, nice work to WillLem for taking up the initiative of starting the conversion and eric for sorting out problems that came about from the conversion after a premature release. I would had pitched in some assistance as well, most notably for packs that I've already completely solved, for which Nepsterlems isn't one of them. Hence why I haven't done much. More than that, admittedly I haven't had the motivation to do anything Lemmings-related lately. Mostly due to hitting my own roadblocks with the packs that I've been trying to get past but haven't been able to. That's how stubborn I am when it comes to not looking up any kind of replay or hint on levels I haven't solved at least once on my own :P Don't worry, though. I'll be back to playing/solving on the Lemmings front again after some time. Honestly, this extensive amount of time away from the game has been helping a lot ;) To finally be taking a break from Lemmings after having played nothing but Lemmings for the last several months every day feels great!

Plenty of converted packs to Superlemmini that I still need to go through that I'll eventually get to! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[V1.3 - NEW UPDATE]
Post by: ericderkovits on June 07, 2021, 01:39:00 AM: I wanted too to start the conversion of Nepsterlems to SL. But I too was having the initial problem that WillLem was having with able to get the .lvl's to .ini's as it was showing that same error message that WillLem stated in the editors. And I even tryed JBuilder as Willlem did, but there too was problems. But We should all give a big thanks to Turrican for discovering that SL actually has an external folder that holds the .ini format of the .lvls. Without SL being able to do that, Nepsterlems would not have been able to be converted. Even I didn't realize SL has an internal way to convert .lvl to .ini. Otherwise I would have started this conversion. So I think Turrican should be mentioned in this.

Editing of the levels of Nepsterlems wasn't too difficult. What was the most difficult was trying to get the replays. This pack is more difficult in my eyes than Lemmings Reunion. Alot of Nepsterlems levels were really difficult escpecially the blackhole rank.

Also When I convert packs, I want to have all the replays first before I release the pack to make sure the levels work properly with exits, traps, steel, OWW's and even occasional climber issues.

Also I'm more than willing to help convert packs (if Possible) but I prefer to have more help in doing so as it does take time. Perhaps we could each help convert packs by doing a couple ranks each.
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[V1.3 - NEW UPDATE]
Post by: kaywhyn on June 07, 2021, 03:17:25 AM: Quote from: ericderkovits on June 07, 2021, 01:39:00 AM
I wanted too to start the conversion of Nepsterlems to SL. But I too was having the initial problem that WillLem was having with able to get the .lvl's to .ini's as it was showing that same error message that WillLem stated in the editors.

Ah, I figured as much. Yea, I couldn't figure how to get around this error as well.

Quote
But We should all give a big thanks to Turrican for discovering that SL actually has an external folder that holds the .ini format of the .lvls.

Yes, Turrican's insight was the key! :thumbsup: Apparently he was able to pick up the inner workings of Superlemmini quite quickly, especially since he had many questions about how to get it to work and everything since last year.

Quote
Without SL being able to do that, Nepsterlems would not have been able to be converted.

Not entirely accurate. The pack can be converted, the problem were those several levels that loaded fine in SL but for some reason doesn't load in the editor. If there wasn't any good fix or workaround, there's always manually recreating the levels themselves, but we wanted to avoid that at all costs, since we know how big of a pain that is :evil: I, for one, would definitely not be up for that!

Quote
This pack is more difficult in my eyes than Lemmings Reunion. Alot of Nepsterlems levels were really difficult escpecially the blackhole rank.

Reunion's difficulty doesn't even come anywhere near Nepsterlems, despite both packs just using the classic 8 skills. Reunion was definitely a difficult pack back in the days, and it still can be to this day, but it's quite tame compared to many of the other packs that came long after it. It's arguable that Nepsterlem's difficulty is up there with United, but the packs are difficult for different reasons. I think what is agreed is that before United came along, Nepsterlems was the most difficult pack, possibly only surpassed by United once it arrived. Nevertheless, there seems to be agreement that they're both the hardest packs currently available. Definitely says a lot that I was able to complete United but haven't been able to do all of Nepsterlems... yet! :(

Quote
Also When I convert packs, I want to have all the replays first before I release the pack to make sure the levels work properly with exits, traps, steel, OWW's and even occasional climber issues.

You and I use the exact same approach when converting packs then. When I did Deceit's Lemmings, I made sure I had a working replay for every level before I released the conversion of the pack. Meaning, I went and played through every level without a guide. Yes, it does take time, but as I myself like to take my time, I don't mind it. I certainly don't mind having to think my way through levels again. This is why I don't ever load replays of levels I have already played before encountering them again in my LPs, as IMO it's a great way to exercise one's brain to think through solving a level again, no matter how much time has passed. Plus, it was good practice for me so that I can see for myself how the conversion process works.

Oh, that was great that you mentioned that the lemmings couldn't use the exit on certain Bubble levels for LPI because it was too high. The same thing happened with a couple of Bubble levels from Deceit's Lemmings when I was converting it. Seems to just be a problem with Bubble levels in general, as I think in all the other tilesets the exits are fine.

Quote
Also I'm more than willing to help convert packs (if Possible) but I prefer to have more help in doing so as it does take time. Perhaps we could each help convert packs by doing a couple ranks each.

That's why I wished I could had been more help to you with Reunion's conversion to Superlemmini, especially in regards to editing. It definitely would had saved you a lot of time and we could had gotten it done faster together. The problem was that at that point in time I had not yet used any kind of level editor and therefore I had absolutely no knowledge of what a level editor could do and everything. If I had known how to use an editor way in advance at the time, I would had been more than happy to help you with the conversion. Also, I was very busy with solving United at the time. Even then, I know you were very grateful for the several Lemmini replays I sent so that you could decide whether to use the Lemmini version or the NL version. You also credited me in your post for my contributions, so thanks for that ;)

That being said, I think that's a great idea of working alongside the author of the Superlemmini conversion, like maybe doing a rank each like you said. I know what I would be doing, and that is you can leave the higher/later rankings to me. No questions asked, since I'm likely the person who would be able to handle the later and much harder levels of the pack. Also, if it comes down to it, I don't mind doing more than one rank ;)
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[V1.3 - NEW UPDATE]
Post by: jkapp76 on June 07, 2021, 03:59:43 PM: https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZ6DWMXZsVXjVkkH5qYKiCAc66dswhFdhujX

I made a music pack for this using the music from Lemmings 2, 3d, and the others.

Just unzip the midi files to your music folder and rename the levelpack file to remove the (bracketed) text.

I just wanted to hear new Lemmings music instead of those same tunes.

...Jeremy
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[V1.3 - NEW UPDATE]
Post by: ericderkovits on June 07, 2021, 08:25:16 PM: For Nepsterlems I don't see any intended music though in Nepster's Pack (whether v2.00 or old v1.11 ), so it might be ok to use Jkapp76's version. But since I've already started posting the Nepsterlems replays on Youtube, I'll stay with the already standard one.
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[V1.3 - NEW UPDATE]
Post by: kaywhyn on June 07, 2021, 08:51:37 PM: Originally, there was a download link for the custom music Nepster used for the pack, but he later removed it just to be on the safe side when it comes to copyright strikes, as some of the tracks are apparently copyrighted, even ones that have been written a very long time ago. Info here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2508.msg57830#msg57830 (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2508.msg57830#msg57830). That's why you don't see a download link for the custom music for the pack. Even if you did have it, it wouldn't be wise to upload video solutions with the custom tracks, and if using them should just be playing the pack in private anyway :P
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[V1.3 - NEW UPDATE]
Post by: ericderkovits on June 07, 2021, 09:05:10 PM: yeah I see that now. Yeah this sounds familiar, kinda like what I did with the copyrighted music I had for Lemmings Open Air. That's why I also removed it too. But I do still have the link for it, but they would have to P.M. me for it with the understanding it's not to be used on Youtube or any other online recording.
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[V1.3 - NEW UPDATE]
Post by: WillLem on June 08, 2021, 02:41:03 AM: Quote from: ericderkovits on June 07, 2021, 01:39:00 AM
Even I didn't realize SL has an internal way to convert .lvl to .ini. Otherwise I would have started this conversion. So I think Turrican should be mentioned in this.

Agreed. I had already mentioned in the OP that it was Turrican's insight which made completing the conversion process possible. I've now added a credit as well.

Using SL to convert .lvl to .ini is actually so convenient that I used this method for all of the Lemmings Plus I conversion, and will likely do so for any future conversions that I decide to do.

Quote from: ericderkovits on June 07, 2021, 01:39:00 AM
Perhaps we could each help convert packs by doing a couple ranks each.

As you've mentioned, conversion itself is a fairly straightforward process, it's the testing and checking that is the hard part. So yes, absolutely. By all means send levels to me for testing if you want help with that part of the process.
Title: Re: [SuperLemmini] NepsterLems (111 Levels)[V1.3 - NEW UPDATE]
Post by: kaywhyn on June 08, 2021, 02:56:43 AM: Quote from: ericderkovits on June 07, 2021, 09:05:10 PM
yeah I see that now. Yeah this sounds familiar, kinda like what I did with the copyrighted music I had for Lemmings Open Air. That's why I also removed it too. But I do still have the link for it, but they would have to P.M. me for it with the understanding it's not to be used on Youtube or any other online recording.

I can provide via PM, although I would have to do the levelpack.ini file for it first by finding the track that plays on each level, so that will take some time. Not to mention that I haven't listened to any save for Black Hole 1 since I got the custom music quite late long after I started playing the pack.

Quote from: WillLem on June 08, 2021, 02:41:03 AM
Using SL to convert .lvl to .ini is actually so convenient that I used this method for all of the Lemmings Plus I conversion, and will likely do so for any future conversions that I decide to do.

Right, that's how I converted Deceit's Lemmings: Taking the .lvl files that I extracted with namida's nxp extractor and mass converting them to .ini ;)