Lemmings Forums
NeoLemmix => Bugs & Suggestions => Closed => Topic started by: Gronkling on December 26, 2020, 03:22:05 AM
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If there is an exit that only allows a limited number of lemmings, the number showing how many can be covered by terrain in both normal play and CPM. This makes it impossible to know the needed number if the level is designed where terrain appears over the top of an exit.
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My gut feeling is that the numbers should display in front of everything else (except perhaps lemmings) for first few frames (while direction / etc are displayed) + in CPM; and in other cases should appear on the same layer as the object itself. Thoughts?
All of these changes are borderline-trivial to actually make, so no need to worry about complexity (at least for the above ideas).
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I would put the number in front of everything else, always. Can't really see a downside to doing that.
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I would put the number in front of everything else, always. Can't really see a downside to doing that.
It could obscure terrain. That's the only obvious downside, though.
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It should definitely be in front at least when you mouse over the exit
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What happens when you untick "no overwrite" for the limited-number exit? That is usually the way to display the entire object in front of terrain - just like if relevant parts of it were to be disguised for other reasons.
For example, a common thing is attaching pickup skills to a wall or ceiling so that only Climbers / Shimmiers can reach them. Especially if those pickup skills are multi-pickups, those numbers (or even parts of the pickup logo itself to identify the skill type) could be covered by terrain, too. That's why I always make pickups "overwrite" in those cases ;) .
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I would put the number in front of everything else, always. Can't really see a downside to doing that.
As namida said, it's the "object obscuring terrain" thing which I got in trouble for when I made the lizard sit "on top" of the terrain in one of my levels. Both namida and kaywhyn mentioned that I should have made it "no overwrite" so that the terrain would not be obscured (incidentally, I noticed that your level "Keep Off The Grass" has a lizard-on-terrain ;P albeit off to the side where it probably wouldn't interfere with playing the level).
However, I think this should remain open for debate. I personally don't mind objects overlaying terrain; for one thing, it can make certain aspects of levels more aesthetically pleasing (such as the lizard thing), and the thing Strato mentioned about overlaying pickups over terrain is also valid: it's a good way to make them inaccessible without use of certain skills.
Another more classic example is water-on-terrain, which is used so frequently that it needn't be regarded as an issue at all (unless it's "only on terrain, and the trigger area extends beyond the terrain, effectively making it "invisible water").
Ultimately, it comes down to whether we would prefer objects to always be displayed behind terrain (meaning the "number-always-visible" suggestion is a no-go), or sometimes allow them to overlay the terrain (meaning that "number-always-visible" is a possibility).
I'd also vote for it to be always visible, since mousing over the exit (as Gronkling suggested) might not occur to some players, and those who don't use CPM very often or don't necessarily take notice of the already-quite-large number of helpers at the beginning of the level may miss this detail, which IMO is as important as the skillset, time limit and any other item of level-specific data and should always be displayed.
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As namida said, it's the "object obscuring terrain" thing which I got in trouble for when I made the lizard sit "on top" of the terrain in one of my levels.
I don't see it as comparable, because the numbers are much smaller than the full object; while there is troll potential in hiding terrain exactly behind the pixels where the number would be, we all know that's unfair and the community would come down hard on it. Other than that, the number is too small to be much of a nuisance, whereas the annoyance of not having the number visible is much greater.
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I don't see it as comparable, because the numbers are much smaller than the full object; while there is troll potential in hiding terrain exactly behind the pixels where the number would be, we all know that's unfair and the community would come down hard on it. Other than that, the number is too small to be much of a nuisance, whereas the annoyance of not having the number visible is much greater.
I agree with the conclusion here, but the initial premise is comparable in the sense of it being a different degree of the same "terrain-behind-objects" issue. Rosa est rosa est rosa.
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Yeah I can't really see how you could use terrain hidden behind numbers easily to make a level impossible unless you were really trying, they're very small. Maybe they could be made slightly translucent if it's too much of a worry
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Fixed in commit 7789602. This is simply an "always draw, in front of terrain". I'll do fancier stuff if and when the need arises.