Lemmings Forums

NeoLemmix => Bugs & Suggestions => Closed => Topic started by: namida on December 07, 2020, 02:09:02 AM

Title: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: namida on December 07, 2020, 02:09:02 AM: Quote from: Proxima
It is now, but of course that's still up for debate if the Grenader gets accepted. I, for one, will strongly push for the Grenader to be given a circular crater.

This is something I hadn't given much thought to yet. I know there's a lot of debate around the size of the mask, but I hadn't thought much about the shape.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: Proxima on December 07, 2020, 02:21:05 AM: Okay, I'll give my reasons.

Firstly, it would be an interesting difference between the two craters. In Lix, the imploder and exploder ("fling bomber") have different-shaped craters, the former resembling a Lemmings bomber and the latter circular, and this has meant designers sometimes have a bit more flexibility when one or the other shape would be preferable. Of course, the grenader and bomber are much more different from each other, so the designer won't have that luxury of choice, but it's still nice to have these little distinctions so that skills aren't just blindly copying each other, similarly to how the miner and fencer tunnels are distinct.

Secondly, it makes sense. Lemmings explode with an irregular crater, taller than wide, because the lemming himself is irregular and taller than wide. The grenade is a small circle.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: IchoTolot on December 07, 2020, 08:45:08 AM: I would be open for this and as Proxima said two different craters could help bring in some differences between bomber and grenader.

Quote
Secondly, it makes sense. Lemmings explode with an irregular crater, taller than wide, because the lemming himself is irregular and taller than wide. The grenade is a small circle.

This is a good reason for it. :)
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: WillLem on December 07, 2020, 02:37:13 PM: +1 for a circular crater.

Size-wise, I think it's great that the crater is currently quite large, but I agree that it doesn't make sense when the Bomber's crater is comparitively small.

Maybe if the Grenadier were renamed to Superbomber, and the projectile that they are throwing is clearly something very powerful, then the larger crater would be justified. We could even invent something NeoLemmix-exclusive for this purpose; just a thought :lemcat:
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: namida on December 07, 2020, 05:24:32 PM: I should be clear - I don't object to either reducing the size or altering the shape; I'm quite open to both. The lack of much input in the OP is more just because this was a "oh, I've spotted a good point, let's quickly create a topic before the issue gets either forgotten, or completely takes over the general topic".

Cosmetic concerns aren't really a huge factor at this point. I'm more worried about the physics, we can decide exactly what the lemming throws / fires later. However, as one suggestion if we keep the large crater, perhaps the lemming is throwing a Davy Crockett (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device))... (This would also mean we could call the skill the "Daver", which would be highly amusing to outsiders.)
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: Strato Incendus on December 07, 2020, 06:13:47 PM: You need something that is in flavour with causing more damage than a bomb? ^^ Take your pick! (https://worms2d.info/Weapons) :P
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: WillLem on December 07, 2020, 06:59:43 PM: Quote from: namida on December 07, 2020, 05:24:32 PM
However, as one suggestion if we keep the large crater, perhaps the lemming is throwing a Davy Crockett (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device))... (This would also mean we could call the skill the "Daver", which would be highly amusing to outsiders.)

Nice! 8-) :crylaugh:

Quote from: Strato Incendus on December 07, 2020, 06:13:47 PM
You need something that is in flavour with causing more damage than a bomb? ^^ Take your pick! (https://worms2d.info/Weapons) :P

Haha! We've been here already (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5172.msg86956#msg86956)!

I still think the explosive balls of light are a good idea!

But yeah, to keep the topic on-point: circular crater, perhaps only a tiny bit smaller than it is now (but not very much).
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: Strato Incendus on December 07, 2020, 07:10:25 PM: We could also have them throw boomas, those big explosive blue balls from Star Wars: Episode I... ^^

But if we think of the Davy Crockett, maybe the good old L2 term "Mortar" is also still in the race? ;)
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: namida on December 07, 2020, 07:13:09 PM: Quote
But if we think of the Davy Crockett, maybe the good old L2 term "Mortar" is also still in the race? ;)

It's probably best to stick to names ending in "er". We at one point had a skill that did not fit this pattern, the "Mechanic".

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It still exists; it's just called a "Disarmer" now.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: Proxima on December 07, 2020, 07:59:51 PM: While true, it not ending in "-er" wasn't the reason for changing it; it was confusing because we sometimes talk about "game mechanics" (although the term "physics" has become more prominent).

I was a proponent of "Grenadier" at first, since that is the correct real-world term for those who throw grenades, but now that we've been playing with the skill for a while, I've gotten more used to "Grenader" and I'd be happy for that term to stay.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: Strato Incendus on December 08, 2020, 02:00:23 PM: Yeah, I was already confused by the L2 skill "Bazooker" (instead of Bazooka, like the weapon itself). :D Probably Worms had some influence on that again, too.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: IchoTolot on December 08, 2020, 04:05:27 PM: It was mentioned in another topic that a circular crater doesn't make a shimmier-friendly ceiling unfriendly anymore.

Quote
Wasn't that the original intention of the Grenader anyway? I remember the "dent the ceiling to stop Shimmiers" discussion. A "dent" to me sounds like a Bomber's crater at max.

But with the circular crater we actually have the other option as a result: The grenader has then the possibility to make a shimmier-unfriendly ceiling friendly!
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: Strato Incendus on December 08, 2020, 04:23:42 PM: Mmh, interesting application. Might create some overlap with the Laserer, although the Laserer inevitably leads the Shimmier up to a higher level, whereas the Grenader could help a Shimmier continue along the same ceiling. I like making Shimmiers go through even more than I enjoy doing that with Miners, so of course, I approve! :thumbsup:

If we wanted a crater that remains Shimmier-unfriendly, though, but still regular in shape, it could either be "2 pixels up, 2 pixels wide, then 2 pixel up again" and so forth, or the same with"2 pixels up, 1 pixel wide". That would still provide a regular shape of the crater (which would also still be a little larger than that of a Bomber) without removing the "stop a Shimmier" application.

And of course, if the ceiling is thin enough for the explosion to break all the way through it, throwing a grenade against it would still cause the Shimmier to stop. ;)
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: namida on December 08, 2020, 05:19:49 PM: Quote
It was mentioned in another topic that a circular crater doesn't make a shimmier-friendly ceiling unfriendly anymore.

That entirely depends on the size of the circle (and exact construction of it).
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: namida on December 23, 2020, 11:39:40 PM: For the next update (same stuff as in the Laserer topic applies re: this not being final + old behavior not being ruled out etc), I will be making the Grenader mask circular (existing width, reduced height, symmetrical on both axes). This will be the only change to the Grenader for this update.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: namida on January 20, 2021, 10:42:04 PM: I've put up a poll regarding the grenader crater.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: WillLem on January 21, 2021, 01:12:50 AM: (https://i.imgur.com/F46lnyg.gif)
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: ericderkovits on January 21, 2021, 02:43:21 AM: That's more like a nuclear explosion there WillLem. I think with that size, the level would be solved with 1 skill, then instead of at fun 11(having 20 of everything). That would be in the first 7 fun levels as a tutorial level just to show off that skill with that size. That size explosion practically takes out the whole level.

Seeing this made me crack up.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: kaywhyn on January 21, 2021, 02:46:03 AM: Now imagine if the floor was replaced with solid terrain instead. Then you couldn't use a grenade to one skill the level :crylaugh:
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: namida on January 21, 2021, 04:47:44 AM: Quote from: ericderkovits on January 21, 2021, 02:43:21 AM
That's more like a nuclear explosion there WillLem.

That's not a Grenader, that's a Daver (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5262.msg88184#msg88184)!
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Grenader - size and shape of destruction?
Post by: namida on January 22, 2021, 12:05:27 AM: Alright - all jokes aside, it looks like people are pretty happy with the size of the blast now. One vote for "bigger", but of course, you can't always please everyone. ;)