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Lemmings Boards => Contests => Topic started by: IchoTolot on October 01, 2020, 12:14:45 PM

Title: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 01, 2020, 12:14:45 PM
All zips only need to be unzipped inside the main folder of your NeoLemmix Player!

NeoLemmix Level Pack: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jr5nj7n1cxccqoq/Contest_21.zip?dl=1

Music: https://www.dropbox.com/s/whzkuukb663f126/Contest_21_music.zip?dl=1

Styles: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5122.0

As Dullstar's l2-classic style is quite new and likely to be used quite a bit in the future given that it's an original style. I would like to ask people to give this a "final test" - so check the trigger areas tiles etc and if something seems off to you report it to Dullstar in the dedicated topic. Rather have critical fixes now when there are just some single levels using it! ;)
This shall not sow doubt in Dullstar's work, I just think extra testing for quite central styles is a good thing especially when it's early in the life cycle!

Rule 1 Levels

Armani's "NeoLemtris" (V6)
Crane's "Steeplechase" (V3)
Dullstar's "Alice" (V7)
IchoTolot's "I'm Loving This Circus!" (V1)
Mantha16's "Jump, Jive and Wail" (V2)
NieSch's "Step Up Your Game" (V2)
Shmolem's "Leap of Faith" (V3)
Ericderkovits' "This room is boiling" (V5)
WillLem's "HoPPiNg_mAd" (V3)


Rule 2 Levels

Armani's "Hornet Flight" (V2)
IchoTolot's "Tribute To V" (V1)
Mantha16's "6 of One, Half a Dozen of the Other" (V1)
NieSch's "Welcome to the Twilight Zone" (V3)


Rule 3 Levels

Armani's "Marina Bay Sands" (V6)
Crane's "Hell's Challenger" (V5)
IchoTolot's "Temple Of Escher" (V1)
Mantha16's "Lemception" (V1)
Nessy's "Abandoned Memory" (V1)


The R3 levels shall represent:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Bonus

WillLem's "The Diving Area" (V5)

You can check the rules details again here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5030.0

Playing Phase will be closed on 7th of November!
Updates will close on 4th of November!


Note: This topic is for posting your comments, replays, etc for the levels. If you wish to post an update to your level, or enter a late submission, please do so in the Updates Topic instead.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 01, 2020, 12:17:41 PM
As I am busy this weekend (meetup with Simon 8-)), I will probably post the first pack update at the beginning of next week.

In the meantime you can still get all updates in the update topic.

I will also record myself playing through the levels during the next week and then upload my solutions as usual.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 01, 2020, 03:42:26 PM
Hello everyone/contest entrants,

As you may all be aware of, I'm the one who recently solved (second player to have done so after Armani) all of Icho's United and am now just going back and resolving the remaining 6 backroute patched levels. Consequently, Icho reached out to me via PM while the submission phase was still open and asked if I was interested in backroute testing his LDC #21 levels, which I of course accepted the offer. This is the very first time I have ever pre-tested contest levels, so the fact that he personally reached out to me for that is quite an honor. :thumbsup: I'm guessing it's due to the appreciation of helping find a lot of backroutes to the final two ranks of United, as well as just how he was amazed at my solving/backrouting abilities and perseverance and determination of not throwing in the towel. Just a heads up to you all on his 3 levels, they're great ones, and, with the exception of the second version of R1 which surprisingly gave me trouble due to me overthinking it, they're still deceivingly tough nuts to crack. Let's see if any of you can figure them out :P Given all of you are skilled solvers of high caliber, I know you'll be able to figure out Icho's levels ;) By my pre-testing, only 1 update to R1 and 2 updates to R2 were needed.

With this being said, I would like to let you know that for future contests, that any of you are more than welcome to do the same and reach out to me and ask if I be interested in pre-testing your contest entries. Of course, that doesn't mean for all of you to do that, as it's best if I don't see everyone's contest entries ahead of time prior to the playing phase, especially if I decide to participate myself in the future by entering at least one level.

In regards to level designing, I know that I have said in the beginning earlier this year when I finally made myself known to the forums that I wouldn't ever get into it. What has inspired me to give it a go is due to the Bonus rank of United that I played last month and that I will definitely be participating in the LDC. However, a few days ago I decided that I'll skip out on this one due to having ran out of time and will for sure enter the next one. So, no contest entry from me this time, although let me do make this clear: Even though the submission phase has recently ended, I'm well aware that I can technically still enter up until the updates phase ends. As I have said before, I'm not going to this time, particularly since I don't have any good ideas for any of the three rules for this particular contest, but rest assured that I will definitely participate in the next LDC after this current one is done ;) In other words, I will participate in LDC #22 as my first contest :)

Now that the playing phase has started, I'm looking forward and am excited to play the other 13 entries from the rest of you that I haven't seen yet and seeing if I can figure any of your levels out. This will be the very first LDC where I will be playing levels and posting replays/feedback to any contest levels I'm able to figure out and seeing if I ended up backrouting any other people's contest entries.

Happy playing/level solving and backroute hunting, everyone!     
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 01, 2020, 05:44:23 PM
Just got a replay to my R3 level that managed to save 2 skills (digger and miner).

It's a level where I will accept most solutions so keep the variants coming! ;)

Let's see if someone manages to save even more skills!
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 01, 2020, 07:48:04 PM
Already, got a late submission from ericderkovits! :)

The level+music files of it are now included.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 01, 2020, 11:05:45 PM
@Dullstar Find my replay for your R1 level. This is quite possibly the biggest backroute I have ever seen, considering that my solution doesn't even fit the criteria for the rule: I don't use any jumpers or any skills besides the climber, miner, and builder. Possibly a big oversight on your part? I highly doubt it's the tileset, and so far I haven't encountered anything unusual with it, although I'll certainly let you know if I do.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: ericderkovits on October 01, 2020, 11:56:27 PM
RE: Icho

I just noticed you put my level listed under rule 3, actually it's rule 1, although it's correct in the pack.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Nessy on October 02, 2020, 03:18:55 AM
Here are some replays for the Rule 1 levels I managed to solve in my first session! :thumbsup:

Armani (click to show/hide)

Dullstar (click to show/hide)

IchoTolot (click to show/hide)

Shmolem (click to show/hide)

I attempted NieSch's level for a solid hour and a half and I couldn't figure it out yet. I also didn't get a chance to attempt Mantha16's level yet. I'll have to get back to you two on your levels! Finally, I tested Crane's level before the contest so I know that replay is okay but I'll include it on here anyway ;)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 02, 2020, 03:24:38 AM
@Nessy regarding Dullstar's R1: Yup, the exact same as mine! The only difference is

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Regarding Icho's R1 rule: I pre-tested all of Icho's contest levels, and as he would agree with me: "Intended!" :thumbsup:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also, ericderkovits' R1 level is a late submission, so you have that level to solve as well.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Armani on October 02, 2020, 05:16:13 AM
Quote
Very nice looking level and good use of the Tetris music and theming :) I don't think my solution is 100% intended though as I had one cloner left over (which I used on a random lemming at the end to meet the save requirement). It still took me more or less an hour just to find this solution though!

Your solution to my level is 95% intended! :thumbsup: (That means 5% is not intended :evil:)
Still, your solution is very closed to intended and I think you can easily find the intended solution for the fixed version because
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Armani on October 02, 2020, 06:21:46 AM
I couldn't wait to see what other people made for rule3, so I played rule3 levels first. :-\


Rule3_02 Crane's Hell's Challenger
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Rule3_03 Ichotolot's Temple Of Escher
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Rule3_04 Mantha16's Lemception
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Rule3_05 Nessy's Abandoned Memory
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Dullstar on October 02, 2020, 06:34:35 AM
I should really probably have someone backroute test these because I never do a good job of it myself. :P
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 02, 2020, 07:18:40 AM
Listed eric's level in the correct rule now.

@Shmolem: I saw your update, but you attached an old format level there so it's not eligible. Only new format nxlvl is permitted. If you fix your fix then I will include it in the next pack update. :)

Nessy's solution to my R1 is 100% intended. Good job! :thumbsup:

I am very impressed to Armani's solution of my R3 level! Not only 5 skills saved, but perfectly one of each on top of that! :thumbsup:

I could maybe make it a returning level in my next pack where the skillcount goes down from 10 of each to 8, to 6, to 5 and finally to 4. ;)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 02, 2020, 07:42:00 AM
All rightie, I got to take a look at the R1 and R2 levels, and here are my replays for them. I wasn't able to solve all the R1 levels, specifically, crane's, mantha16's, and niesch's, but I was able to solve all the R2 levels. Wow, I got to say these are all nice and quite tough levels! :thumbsup: It's not a bad thing at all if they manage to stump even me. Quite the contrary. I love a good challenge. Keep in mind that until this contest, the only levels I have ever played are from Icho, namida, and strato. Everyone else's levels I have never played, and so I don't know how tough their levels are or can be. Indeed, for my very first time playing mantha16's and niesch's levels, they're quite tough!

For Icho's levels, I was a pre-tester, and so I won't include my feedback for them.

R1 Feedback for the levels I did solve:

Armani's Neolemtris R1 V2 (click to show/hide)

Dullstar's Alice R1 V1

Already sent you my replay and gave you my feedback earlier. I saw Nessy's replay and his is almost the exact same severe backroute as mine.

Shmolem's Leap of Faith R1 V2 (click to show/hide)


Regarding crane's, mantha16's and niesch's levels, so far they're a no solve for me. NO HINTS YET, please! For crane's level, it's got to be the tightest time limit level I have ever played. It's not a bad thing, since I don't mind time limits, but it's quite frustrating because I always keep running out of time as the final two lemmings are exiting. I'm not sure how I can squeeze in a couple of extra seconds, but I'll keep trying.

For mantha16's level, yup, I agree with the others who said that you underestimate the difficulty of your levels. Both of your R1 and R2 are deceivingly tough, but I was able to solve your R2 (see feedback below). For your R1, it's still a no solve, but I'm going to keep trying. I'm probably just missing some obvious stuff that's preventing me from solving it. Also, I'm not a fan of the tileset, but thank you for not making the lemmings pitch black just like the terrain/objects! ;)

Finally, for niesch's R1, no solve as well after having spent about a half hour or so. I'm probably just overcomplicating an otherwise tricky but not terribly difficult level. Nevertheless, I'm going to keep trying.   

Feedback for R2 Levels

Armani's Hornet Flight R2 V1 (click to show/hide)



I haven't taken a look at the R3 levels yet, but I will soon! Great levels so far, everyone! Keep up the great work. :thumbsup: It's great to finally be able to play levels from other authors/players besides Icho's, namida's, and strato's.
 
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Crane on October 02, 2020, 07:49:05 AM
Nice backroute on Hell's Challenger.  Hopefully the fix (most of the barrel is now steel) won't break the level in some other way.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Armani on October 02, 2020, 08:11:03 AM
@Kaywhyn
You totally backrouted both of my level :XD:

Neolemtris : As you might guess, Jumpers and a shimmier is not for delaying purpose. Increasing RR will block that.

Horenet flight : Same here. shimmier is not for delaying purpose. A fencer is now a pick-up skill ;)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: NieSch on October 02, 2020, 08:49:51 AM

Great job! :)

I had a different solution in mind, but I knew there would be multiple possibilities. They key thing is the same:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: NieSch on October 02, 2020, 09:54:37 AM
I backrouted Dullstar's rule 1 level, V2.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Nessy on October 02, 2020, 05:47:36 PM
Quote from: kaywhyn
Regarding Icho's R1 rule: I pre-tested all of Icho's contest levels, and as he would agree with me: "Intended!" :thumbsup:
Quote from: IchoTolot
Nessy's solution to my R1 is 100% intended. Good job! :thumbsup:

Excellent :thumbsup:

Also I resolved Armani's Rule 1 level and it should now be 100% intended ;) (hopefully!)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: ericderkovits on October 02, 2020, 05:52:02 PM
yes kaywhyn backrouted my level so I changed it by:

1) altering 1st gap a bit
2) adding more flamethrowers.
3) adding left-facing OWW's right of transporter exit(vertical thin bar-no bashing there)
4) changed 7 of the builders to pickup skills.

Note: fixing backroutes are always going to be an issue with anybodys levels whether the person is new at designing levels(like me) or more experienced(as Armani's R1 level is already at version 3) and even Icho's
United goes through many updates.

Also I'm not the greatest designer so my levels in Angry lemmings may be boring but that's ok. Also this is why it takes so long to design levels. Nobody can get it right with just the 1st version unless it's meant
to be open-ended as with many 1st rank levels of most packs.

Note: also Kaywhyn you should try designing levels sometime, it kind of fun. Also fun to see peoples replays on your designed levels(even when you have to backroute fix them).
         
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 02, 2020, 07:31:39 PM
Well, I've been on a solving frenzy the last few days with the contest levels. I've taken a look at the R3 levels and was able to solve all of them, and they're probably all backroutes except for mantha16's level. So, find my replays for the R3 levels attached. Again, I pre-tested Icho's R3 level, and so my feedback/replay for his level is omitted.

Armani's Marina Bay Sands (click to show/hide)

Crane's Hell's Challenger (click to show/hide)

Mantha16's Lemception (click to show/hide)

Nessy's Abandoned Memory (click to show/hide)

Note: also Kaywhyn you should try designing levels sometime, it kind of fun. Also fun to see peoples replays on your designed levels(even when you have to backroute fix them).         

Yes, as I have mentioned I will definitely get into level designing, just not this contest. The next one for sure. Also, I would urge you to take the time to play and solve these levels yourself. It's how one gets better at level solving. Think about how unfair it is for those who actually put in the time to play and solve the levels while you download the replays, watch them, and then attempt to imitate what you see. The biggest problem I've seen with this is that it tends to make the player one-sided and think the replay is the only solution to the level when in fact there might be multiple solutions. I'm sure level designing is hard work, but level solving can be just as time consuming. That's why I only watch after I solve the level myself first just to compare my solution to other players.

@Kaywhyn
You totally backrouted both of my level :XD:

Neolemtris : As you might guess, Jumpers and a shimmier is not for delaying purpose. Increasing RR will block that.

Horenet flight : Same here. shimmier is not for delaying purpose. A fencer is now a pick-up skill ;)

That's me all right. I'm apparently the backroute king :P

Rule3_03 Ichotolot's Temple Of Escher
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You are amazing, Armani! :lem-mindblown: You managed to save way more than both Icho and me. At first, I thought you were the one Icho was referring to in his post who saved two skills, but I'm guessing it might be josh. Not only are you definitely one of the best solvers, you're also a great level designer to boot! :thumbsup:



Thus, I have now seen all of the contest levels and I was able to save all of the R2 and R3 levels. Now I just need to go back and solve the 3 R1 levels I wasn't able to, as well as resolve both of Armani's R1 and R2 levels, as well as Dullstar's R1 and ericderkovits' R1 level. And of course, any other R2 and R3 levels I might had backrouted in the meantime.

Overall, excellent work to all the contest entrants! :thumbsup: I honestly thought I be able to breeze through all these levels very quickly. Nope, I was very wrong! Most of them turned out to be quite difficult even for someone like me who recently solved all of United but still need to go back and resolve the remaining 6 backroute patched levels in that pack. However, I still enjoyed the levels of those who I played for the very first time. Come to think of it, I think all of you I played levels by for the very first time, with the exception of Icho, of course. Once again, let me emphasize that you managing to stump even me is not necessarily a bad thing. Quite the contrary, as I love a good challenge, and I felt these contest levels challenged me enough appropriately to really make me think. In the end, I found it quite satisfying when the solution finally came to me and clicked and I was able to solve them!

Anyway, here's hoping I'll be able to solve the 3 R1 levels I haven't been able to yet, as well as being able to resolve the newest versions of some R1 and R2 levels. Also, I can't wait to see other solutions to Icho's R2 level from any/all of you if you're able to solve it. I admit that when I pre-tested it that it looks and feels overwhelming, but honestly it's more tricky than difficult. And of course, I'm looking forward to other R1/R2/R3 solutions.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Armani on October 02, 2020, 11:42:08 PM
Quote
This is likely a backroute, considering I used the simple blocker to hold back the crowd and I don't use the climber. So, might I had been successful in backrouting all 3 of your contest levels?
Quote
You are amazing, Armani! :lem-mindblown: You managed to save way more than both Icho and me. At first, I thought you were the one Icho was referring to in his post who saved two skills, but I'm guessing it might be josh. Not only are you definitely one of the best solvers, you're also a great level designer to boot! :thumbsup:
I'm flattered :-[ . I'm really glad you like my level. And, yes. You managed to backroute all my contest levels.:XD: I added some steels to block the backroute you found. I put a lot of effort into polishing puzzle as well as aesthetics. So I hope this update will lead you to intended way. Rule1 and Rule2 levels are not that difficult. Rule3 level is more difficult than those 2, but I'm quite sure it doesn't apply to you.:thumbsup:


Quote
Also I resolved Armani's Rule 1 level and it should now be 100% intended ;) (hopefully!)
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Yes now you reached 100%
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: mantha16 on October 03, 2020, 12:30:08 AM
no you are right I am not keen on Zombie levels but Namida didn't understand this and I tend to just believe whatever Namida says re lemmings lol. Basically I'd be in the cult of Namida if it was a thing.

but what your feedback proves to me is I have absolutely no idea about the difficulty of my levels as I thought Lemception was the hardest of them :D
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: ericderkovits on October 03, 2020, 03:16:55 AM
hi Willem nice to have another entry for the contest. I solved your level. Like me I prefer easier levels.

anyways here is my replay for your entry The Diving Area.

Also I entered the contest. Mine in called This Room is boiling. Like me my level is probably the easiest one of these other entries. Although it's lenghty and I had to make a 2nd version as Kaywhyn backrouted it.

Edit: never mind You changed it real quick. I'll try to solve your version 2 of it


Edit: ok I solved your version 2 of it. You had 3 jumpers, but I solved it only using 2. ok here is my replay
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: WillLem on October 03, 2020, 03:32:12 AM
Wow! That was very quick. Just checked the solution and it's a backroute that's still possible with the new version. I'll get another update done now I guess! :forehead:
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 03, 2020, 03:59:55 AM
Resolved Armani's R1, R2, and R3, as well as Dullstar's R1. Sorry Armani, your changes to your R1 and R3 have not prevented me from doing the exact same solution. Even though Nessy has the intended solution for your R1, I still backrouted it. I guess I really am the king of backroutes :P Your R2 should be intended now! :thumbsup:

Armani's NeoLemtris R1 V3 (click to show/hide)

Armani's Hornet Flight R2 V2 (click to show/hide)

In the case of R3, the only thing I did differently was

Armani's Marina Bay Sands R3 V2 (click to show/hide)

For Dullstar's Alice R1 V3, definitely a huge improvement over the first two versions, but I still think this is a backroute. For one thing, I use two jumpers, so it doesn't quite fit the criteria of the rule. Second, some skills left over.

I haven't looked at eric's V2 of his R1 level, as well as the three R1 levels that I wasn't able to solve yet. I will soon! Keep up the great work, everyone! These are all wonderful.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 03, 2020, 04:12:06 AM
@WillLem, how's this for your R1 V4? Unless the leftover skill is completely optional, I would say your 3rd version with the time limit was very justified in order to enforce its use, meaning you definitely should had kept the time limit if so. Otherwise, very nice short and easy level ;)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: ericderkovits on October 03, 2020, 04:21:07 AM
yes here is my replay for version 4 very easy level even with the time limit(was 19 sec). Yes I had a walker left over too. To start in my replay I increased the RR to 99.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: mantha16 on October 03, 2020, 04:25:33 AM
ive watched Kaywhyn's and Armani's replays to Lemception and neither of you have done the intended solution but I consider them fair alternatives rather than backroutes so I may or may not attempt to enforce the intended solution but I'm leaning towards not at the moment.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Armani on October 03, 2020, 04:44:48 AM
Quote
Armani's NeoLemtris R1 V3 (click to show/hide)

It seems I need to strongly enforce the upper route. :forehead: Added a fire.

Quote
Armani's Hornet Flight R2 V2 (click to show/hide)

Intended :thumbsup: This level is to showcase the trick you found.(So I can justify my harder and obscure levels using that trick. :evil:)

Quote
In the case of R3, the only thing I did differently was
Armani's Marina Bay Sands R3 V2 (click to show/hide)

Ooops, I missed the obvious backroute again. :forehead: Added OWW will hopefully fix that
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: WillLem on October 03, 2020, 05:35:35 AM
Both kaywhyn and ericderkovits's solutions are in fact backroutes... maybe the time limit is justified after all! The following revision (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5146) breaks both replays, so hopefully this will do it. I'm generally not a fan of locked RR but, in this case, needs must.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 03, 2020, 05:37:38 AM
Wrong place, WillLem ;) That should go in the updates topic. Your post is fine, the file is in the wrong place.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: WillLem on October 03, 2020, 05:38:37 AM
Wrong place, WillLem ;) That should go in the updates topic. Your post is fine, the file is in the wrong place.

Sorted it, thanks.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 03, 2020, 05:52:00 AM
Alright, I will be out now for a day. Expect another pack update not before either monday or late sunday evening. (European timezone ;P)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Armani on October 03, 2020, 06:03:41 AM
Solutions for Rule2 levels ;)

Rule2_02 Tribute to V
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Rule2_03 6 of One, Half a Dozen of the Other
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Rule2_04 Welcome to the Twilight Zone
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: ericderkovits on October 03, 2020, 06:07:07 AM
ok, Willem I solved your version 5 of The Diving Area.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 03, 2020, 06:26:38 AM
Rule2_02 Tribute to V
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Once again, most impressive with Icho's R2 level, Armani! You managed to save way more skills than both Icho and me (interestingly enough, the skill we both saved was the basher, although I did one better than him). However, you could had saved even more skills in the end.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So, although I pre-tested Icho's levels and he considered mine an acceptable alternative, I'm not sure if yours is too. Let's see what Icho says.

If you understand the Roman numerals system, V represents the number 5. The level title is a tribute to the final level of namida's Lemmings Plus V pack.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 03, 2020, 06:41:06 AM
Great job Armani! Glad you liked the level! :thumbsup:

And surprise: You are closer to the intended solution than kaywhyn. ;P

Quote
If you understand the Roman numerals system, V represents the number 5. The level title is a tribute to the final level of namida's Lemmings Plus V pack.

That's exactly the meaning behind the title.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 03, 2020, 08:07:08 AM
Resolved Armani's R1 V4 and R3 V3 levels, as well as ericderkovits' R1 V2 and WillLem's R1 V5.

@Armani I think your R1 is now intended. Nice level! :thumbsup: For R3, probably still a backroute? I have a blocker leftover. Still, the changes you made have definitely made the level harder.

@eric how's this solution? This time, I use all skills, including the pickups. At least in my solution, getting the shimmier pickup is very pixel precise, though. Also, I must say that with the changes you made you have succeeded in giving even a level solving master like me a lot of struggles. Nice! ;) It's not a bad thing at all. Quite the contrary. As you know, I don't mind challenging and difficult levels. The level itself is quite a great puzzle, although my opinion that it's boring due to the repetitive skill assignments and the huge length still holds. Still, this is pretty decent for a first time contest entry. ;)

@WillLem This should be intended. Nice short and easy level :)

And surprise: You are closer to the intended solution than kaywhyn. ;P

Does not surprise me one bit, considering you and Armani are much better solvers than me IMO :P I seem to be the undisputed backroute king though :crylaugh:
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Crane on October 03, 2020, 08:12:26 AM
Well, kaywhyn's solution is technically a backroute, but the meat and theme of the intended solution is there, so I'll let it pass.  Well done!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I've found a few solutions that save tools, and the solutions that are closest to my intended solution (with some twists) are behind the talismans.  Oh, and Nessy's solution!

Ultimately, Hell's Challenge is meant to look very intimidating and atmospheric, but if you just go to it, it's not all that bad, other than the rather mean red herring at the bottom!

I may release an updated version that makes some aesthetic changes though.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Armani on October 03, 2020, 08:56:41 AM
@Armani I think your R1 is now intended. Nice level! :thumbsup: For R3, probably still a backroute? I have a blocker leftover. Still, the changes you made have definitely made the level harder.

Neolemtris is 100% intended well done! :thumbsup:

And Marina Bay sands is not intended. Not even close :'(
I added some steels so you cannot bash under, and now the chimney under the hatch is now high enough so the climber can't climb over.
I really should have someone to pre-tested my levels.
There will be no update until Icho turns back, but in case of you want to play fixed version of Marina Bay sands, you can download the level in update topic. ;)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 03, 2020, 10:47:28 AM
How's this solution for your R3 V4 level, Armani? This seems intended now, since I use all the skills, but I'm usually never certain if a solution is intended. If it's not, I'm sure we're getting close at least?

I really should have someone to pre-tested my levels.

Yea, I'm probably frustrating you with all the changes you have to keep making to your contest levels ;P And this is the very first contest where I'm playing your levels too. With the many versions you have released, it shows that I'm able to solve your levels, because I have absolutely no idea how difficult your levels can be. They're definitely challenging, but in a good way IMO. Before this, the only levels I have ever played were from Icho, namida, and strato. Well, as my first post on this topic mentions, I am more than happy to offer to pre-test contest levels from anyone who reaches out me, so keep that in mind for the future. All you have to do is ask ;)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Armani on October 03, 2020, 12:36:17 PM
Sadly, that's still very far from intended.
It's time to bring the sledgehammer. :evil:
I added tons of steels, entropy of the level decrease a lot as a result, but I had no choice.
Thanks a lot for your patience. :D

And also thanks for your offer!
I will definitely have some pre-test from the next contest, and I will keep your offer in mind. ;)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: ericderkovits on October 03, 2020, 05:36:59 PM
hi, kaywhyn, I saw your version 2 replay of my level. Not exactly the path I wanted to see. but since you used all the skills and ended up taking 10 seconds longer than mine. And got 80% of the skills placed in the correct 
spot, I will keep this version. no more changes unless someone else plays it and backroutes it. also there are a couple of variants even in my solution that I would accept. But you definitely made getting the shimmier pickup harder than it was supposed to be(not so pixel precise) if you took the right path. You definitely made the level harder than it was supposed to be.

Anyways also I agree with you with the repetiveness of the skills, that is why I only picked a small number of lemmings 12 to start off. I was considering maybe just like 5 so the repetiveness wasn't there but since this was in the Mayhem rank of my Angry Lemmings, I wanted to make the level a little harder. Although I still consider the level not that difficult.

EDIT: Also note I didn't make the level actually for the contest. First and foremost, I made it for my Angry Lemmings pack. It's just since I already had the level made, I figured why not and enter it into the contest.
         But when you backrouted it the first time with my version 1 that's when I had to alter it. So by you admitting you thought it gave you a bit of struggle(maybe not big time though), I think it does belong in my
         Mayhem rank. Also I'm trying to make my Mayhem ranks a little lengthy to add to the difficultly as well as the puzzle part of it.

         Also as one can guess, this is the 2nd level of my Mayhem rank(thus called "This room is boiling") since in the original game of lemmings the 2nd level of Mayhem was called "The boiler room" so I just
         named my level close to that name, thus I just named it "This room is boiling", so as one can see it was meant for my Angry lemmings pack and Not the contest.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Crane on October 03, 2020, 09:20:16 PM
This is more food for thought for later once everyone has a bash at solving it (and willing to keep solving it!)... should I reduce the number of Jumpers in "Hell's Challenger" from 5 to 4?  Doing so will better enforce the solution I intend, but it also makes it much more precise and possibly a little unfair at one point.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Armani on October 04, 2020, 06:55:06 AM
Played Rule1 levels just now. I might have found intended solutions for Steeplechase and I'm Loving This Circus. And I gave several tries to NieSch and Mantha's levels but no luck yet.:P I will try again on another day.
.
Rule1_2  Steeplechase : The timer was very tight, The last lemming coming out from the hatch always failed to reach the exit on time so I had to save a jumper somewhere else for him. The level itself was quite enjoyable and I think the music selection was also great.

Rule1_3  Alice : I have a blocker left and used a cloner to merely meet the save requirement.

Rule1_4  I'm Loving This Circus : It was much easier than your other two levels, but I had fun playing the level.

Rule1_7 : Leap of Faith : I have so many leftover skills. I think the updraft behind the exit has something to do with the intended solution, but I have no idea for now.

Rule1_8 : This room is boiling : This one was quite difficult. I managed to solve the level with 7 shimmier to spare, so I guess my solution is not 100% intended.

Rule1_9 : The diving area : It was quite simple but also a nice level :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: NieSch on October 04, 2020, 08:07:28 AM
Rule2_04 Welcome to the Twilight Zone
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Crane on October 04, 2020, 08:49:18 AM
Hmmm, that's a little bit awkward.  Technically that's a backroute of Steeplechase.  Let me have a think on that one.

EDIT: V2 of Steeplechase - now the last two lemmings fail to reach the exit in time when going that way.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Armani on October 04, 2020, 09:25:18 AM
Hmmm, that's a little bit awkward.  Technically that's a backroute of Steeplechase.  Let me have a think on that one.

EDIT: V2 of Steeplechase - now the last two lemmings fail to reach the exit in time when going that way.

This seems better! But I have a jumper left this time
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Crane on October 04, 2020, 10:19:46 AM
That's actually near enough the intended solution, but you were so efficient that you were able to save a Jumper.  Well done.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Crane on October 04, 2020, 11:53:14 AM
After some thought, I decided to reduce the number of Jumpers on Hell's Challenger from 5 to 4 - find V4 in the update topic, and fingers crossed that it doesn't make the level too unfair.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 04, 2020, 04:02:42 PM
I am back again and updated the pack. 8-)

Will probably record a first playthrough during this week. :)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 04, 2020, 09:57:51 PM
Played Rule1 levels just now. I might have found intended solutions for Steeplechase and I'm Loving This Circus. And I gave several tries to NieSch and Mantha's levels but no luck yet.:P I will try again on another day.

Oh good, I feel a lot better knowing that I'm not the only one who hasn't been able to figure out manth16's and niesch's R1 levels. Not that it's a good thing to be stuck, because it sucks. Before that, I thought I was a dumb dumb if I couldn't solve them. If there's anyone who I thought would be able to solve them, I thought you be able to, seeing how you managed to solve all of the R2 and R3 levels just like me, but apparently not yet as well. However, you managed to solve Crane's R1 level which I haven't been able to yet. It definitely would had been solved already without the very strict time limit, but so far the clock has been my biggest enemy on the level. I'm definitely going to keep trying, though. I'm probably not that far off, just need to figure out where I'm going wrong that's causing me to be a second too slow.

Also thanks Armani for thinking my level was difficult. Makes me now glad I put it in my Mayhem rank of my Angry lemmings pack.

Yea, you definitely underestimated the difficulty of your own level, eric. It is quite a difficult and tricky level. It's quite easy for the level author to either underestimate or overestimate the difficulty of his or her own level since before anyone plays the level only the creator knows the solution. That being said, I haven't looked at your R1 V3 yet, but I will soon!
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: ericderkovits on October 04, 2020, 10:09:04 PM
Thanks to Armani's replay had to update to version 3 since he had shimmiers left over although his replay is truely amazing. No wonder people think he is a master in puzzle solving. Had he used all the shimmiers,
I wouldn't have updated to version 3 even with his replay, since it's out of the ordinary.

changes: added even more flamethrowers
              put right-facing OWW's on blue terrain below exit
              lowered platform where glider pickup skill is

Also thanks Armani for thinking my level was difficult. Makes me now glad I put it in my Mayhem rank of my Angry lemmings pack. Especially coming from you as your are an awesome puzzle solver.


Note: This Update breaks Armani's v2 replay(although I still love it since it's so amazing. If I could have thought of this as a solution where I could have reduced the number of shimmiers-I would have, but his solution I think would have made very few people be able to solve the level. Also his solution would have been beyond Mayhem I think. And I don't want it to be that difficult for my Angry Lemmings pack.)

Note also: it doesn't break Kaywhyn's v2 replay though. Although at first it did when I was editing it-rightmost downward flame thrower left of exit and below glider pickup was just a tad too far to the right. So since I accept Kaywhyn's v2 replay I moved it just a tad left so not to break his replay.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Dullstar on October 04, 2020, 11:08:16 PM
Armani's is probably the first backroute for my level that isn't going to be a trivial fix; not really sure what to do about it yet.

I also found another one that saves an additional lemming and has additional leftover skills that is also not trivial to fix.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: mantha16 on October 04, 2020, 11:13:06 PM
ok something weird happened with my rule 1 level it reset the skill counts on the pick ups that is not what I put them at no wonder yall cant solve it lol will do an update shortly
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Nessy on October 04, 2020, 11:46:46 PM
@kaywhyn and @Armani thanks for your replays and comments :) I finally saw your solutions to my Rule 3 level. Even though my level is meant to be an open-ended type of level and Armani's solution I think is acceptable, I am a little bit iffy about the route that the crowd took in kaywhyn's solution. Maybe if another replay takes a similar route I might have to block so major apologizes in advance!

Also as an additional note some of these contest levels are very tough! Don't be surprised if I have to ask for a hint on some of them ;) I would rather ask for a hint and be able to solve the level than to just leave them unsolved when the voting phase starts. I will, however, ask for hints much, much later on down the line just in case I do figure them out on my own.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 05, 2020, 12:43:50 AM
Resolved mantha16's R1 V2, as well as Crane's R3 V2.

@mantha16 Now the level has gone from downright impossible to very open-ended and very easy. Nice level! :thumbsup: Definitely much easier than your R3, although both of those are easy IMO. Your R2 is the hardest one, but with your R1 fix I have now solved all 3 of your contest levels. Great job with all of them ;)

I think strato also said that he kept having problems with pickup skills resetting their counts when he was making his LOA pack. The counts would be fine in the editor, but when loading them in the player the counts would reset. So, you're not the only one experiencing that problem.

@crane No, reducing the jumper count didn't make the level unfair at all IMO. All I had to do to fix my replay was platform and mine at the very beginning. Then again, I don't know if my new solution to your R3 is intended.

@Niesch regarding your R2 level, something happened to it where the exit count limit is no longer present. Thus, any number of lemmings can now use either exit. Your R2 V2 didn't break my replay, so it's fine there, just the exit count limit disappeared. You might want to look into what happened there.

Also as an additional note some of these contest levels are very tough!

I agree with you here! Almost all of these are quite tough levels. They're also great levels if you're able to solve them IMO.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: mantha16 on October 05, 2020, 01:10:22 AM
good, I don't think easy levels are bad levels and my goal is not to frustrate the player so I'm pleased.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: ericderkovits on October 05, 2020, 02:23:27 AM
As you know I don't believe in Talismans, but If I were to give it for my Rule 1 level, this is one that wouldn't bother me as I really love Armani's solution to it. But of course I have it as version 3 already and won't bother reverting it.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: NieSch on October 05, 2020, 06:03:08 AM
@Niesch regarding your R2 level, something happened to it where the exit count limit is no longer present. Thus, any number of lemmings can now use either exit. Your R2 V2 didn't break my replay, so it's fine there, just the exit count limit disappeared. You might want to look into what happened there.

Thanks for letting me know. I'll change it. (It's a bug in the editor I guess that after changes in terrain the exit count limit disappears.)

About my rule 1 level: it's definitely solvable so don't worry that I made a mistake there. Just don't give up. ;)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 05, 2020, 06:21:54 AM
About my rule 1 level: it's definitely solvable so don't worry that I made a mistake there. Just don't give up. ;)

I'm sure it is. I'm probably just going about it the wrong way or, more likely, I'm missing something obvious. The level has certainly done a great job of stumping everyone who has tried it so far: Armani, Nessy, and me. Besides your R1 level, the only other level I have left to solve is crane's R1. So, it's just the R1 levels from you two that have been no solves for me. Everything else I have either solved or I need to resolve, and I still might possibly have to resolve some other levels that get fixed in the meantime and hence my existing replays might break.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 05, 2020, 06:55:09 AM
I think it's relevant to post this section from the update topic here. :devil: Please READ carefully:

Please follow these rules for updates:
1. When posting a new updated version of a level, remove any old updated versions of that level --> Have all your recent updates stored in 1 post! I will delete such old posts eventually if the author doesn't; so don't store any important information in them.
2. Make a new post for a new update; do not edit your most recent post. You may, however, post updates to multiple entries (if you have more than one) in the same post.
3. Use the same filename as found in the ZIP of the entered levels, with "V2" "V3" etc added at the end. No matter how minor an update is, give it a new number.
4. Do not post in this topic, unless it's to post an update to your levels. Use the discussion topic instead for anything else.

Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Armani on October 05, 2020, 04:28:11 PM
Resolved all the remaining levels

Rule1_05 Jump Jive and Wail
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Rule1_06 Step Up Your Game
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Rule1_08 This room is boiling
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Rule2_04 Welcome to the Twilight Zone
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Rule3_02 Hell's Challenger
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: NieSch on October 05, 2020, 05:32:05 PM
Rule1_06 Step Up Your Game
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Intended solution. Well done!

Rule2_04 Welcome to the Twilight Zone
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Impressive solution. You even had a builder left. I might tweak the level a bit after this.

Thanks for your feedback Armani! :)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Nessy on October 05, 2020, 07:53:40 PM
@NieSch: I was going to wait until I had more replays but I really want to know if this solution for your Rule 1 level is intended.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: NieSch on October 05, 2020, 08:29:14 PM
@NieSch: I was going to wait until I had more replays but I really want to know if this solution for your Rule 1 level is intended.

It is. The one and only I guess.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I would be very surprised if there was an alternative one. Well done! :)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Nessy on October 06, 2020, 01:05:22 AM
Quote from: NieSch
It is. The one and only I guess.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I would be very surprised if there was an alternative one. Well done! :)

Awesome! It was a really good level: deceptively simple but it drove me crazy (in a good way of course) to save that last skill!

I solved some more levels and I kind of jumped around this time:

Mantha (click to show/hide)

Shmolem (click to show/hide)

IchoTolot (click to show/hide)

Once again I tested Crane's Rule 3 level but I will post my solution for it on here anyway ;)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Shmoley on October 06, 2020, 05:44:00 AM
I’ve been trying to beat some of the other contest levels.. and I haven’t been able to solve any of them :-[ I’ve come very close to solving some but haven’t actually beaten any..
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 06, 2020, 06:30:55 AM
I’ve been trying to beat some of the other contest levels.. and I haven’t been able to solve any of them :-[ I’ve come very close to solving some but haven’t actually beaten any..

You can do it, Shmolem! ;) Just don't give up! I agree that a lot of these are quite tough, but I was able to solve most of them after a lot of struggling. If anything, you can always send a replay and ask the level author for some hints to possibly help you solve them if you still can't figure them out even after spending a lot of time.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 06, 2020, 07:15:51 AM
Nice solution Nessy and totally acceptable! :)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 06, 2020, 05:41:24 PM
Solved and recorded everything today. :)

Will try to upload  the vids later or tomorrow and will also posts my replays when that's done. ;P
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Nessy on October 06, 2020, 08:35:54 PM
Got some more replays!

WillLem's "The Diving Area" (click to show/hide)

Armani's "Hornet Flight" (click to show/hide)

IchoTolot's "Tribute To V" (click to show/hide)


Armani's "Marina Bay Sands"" (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Armani on October 06, 2020, 11:01:47 PM
Both of them are totally intended :thumbsup: I'm glad you like my levels!
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 06, 2020, 11:08:29 PM
Nessy's olution is totally acceptable! :thumbsup:

And I got my videos up! My replays are also attached! :)

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b17_UE1lj0
Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q544_dbai6I
Part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFk7xV7I7G0
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: ericderkovits on October 07, 2020, 12:12:00 AM
Wow Icho's solution barely made it on time. So far only my intended solution had the most time left.

Icho's about 1/2 of a second
kaywhyns' about 9 seconds
my intended one was 19 seconds

Nobody seems to take the intended path.

Also I didn't realize my level was this tricky. I didn't mean it to be this tricky. To see everybody struggle this much with it. But I do appreciate Icho's remarks. I will fix this level for my Angry lemmings pack and just make the hatch produce swimmers and do some other patch work(just not for the contest level)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: ericderkovits on October 07, 2020, 03:48:01 AM
Intended Solution to my Rule 1 Version 4 level (This room is boiling)

ok I figured why not upload my intended solution now. If you haven't solved it yet and wish to on your own then simply don't watch. But If you have solved it already, and want to compare yours to my intended one then
here it is. Also my solution seems to be quicker than Kaywhyn's and definitely quicker than Icho's. Also my path is different than Kaywhyn's or Icho's thus saving time.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Armani on October 07, 2020, 05:41:27 AM
@Ichotolot

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 07, 2020, 06:47:37 AM
Quote
I will fix this level for my Angry lemmings pack and just make the hatch produce swimmers and do some other patch work(just not for the contest level)

Glad to hear that. :)

You do want to avoid those mass skill assignments to everybody or at least keep them to a limit. Maybe reducing the lem count by a couple could also help. ??? 

I will look through those fixed levels soon, but I will wait and see if a few more updates come in first. :)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 07, 2020, 02:03:02 PM
I resolved the levels except Armani's R1 where I want to make sure that the fix has not made the level impossible. It's just because I see no mention of the stacker being removed from the skillset in his update log. Just to make sure. ;)
I included my best attempt though.

@ericderkovits:    I like this new solution a lot more! :thumbsup:   The level just plays better in general and I am still under the old timer. ;)


Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: ericderkovits on October 07, 2020, 03:58:53 PM
Yes, your under the old timer because now you took the intended path(went to the far right-which saves time). Before both you and kaywhyn and even armani's before his replay broke all were going left).

Also by adding the disarmers pickup skills location, I tihink it gives away the intended path, thus making the level much easier.


Also your new solution is intended. And would have been even in version 4.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Armani on October 07, 2020, 04:47:28 PM
I resolved the levels except Armani's R1 where I want to make sure that the fix has not made the level impossible. It's just because I see no mention of the stacker being removed from the skillset in his update log. Just to make sure. ;)
Ah, yes. You are right. Sorry, that was my mistake.:crylaugh: My intention was culling a stacker and putting a stacker pick-up to compensate that.
And your solution for Marina Bay Sands is intended :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 07, 2020, 05:25:31 PM
This seems intended now. :)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 07, 2020, 08:50:57 PM
Replay for Steeplchase still works and I resolved the tank level. :)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Crane on October 08, 2020, 12:14:49 AM
The start of Hell's Challenger is different to what I do, but certainly acceptable - well done.  I'm not sure if it's possible to block the part where you use the shimmier to stop the miner though.  I may have to leave it.  At least now you need to do release rate tricks to save a jumper!

To get the silver talisman requires some creative thinking though.

Steeplechase might require leaving as is.

ADDENDUM: There is one solution to fixing the last part of Hell's Challenger, but I fear that will damage the shape of the tank too much (it involves a 5th miner and a small break in the rear skirts, where any lemmings going leftwards will meet a fiery death in the middle of the tank, but a single lemming going right (the original miner) can become a miner and head to the exit.  I'm in two minds about it... while it will fix the backroute and make hte use of the last shimmier a bit more innovative, I'm more concerned about the level's aesthetics.  Plus you might still be able to use the shimmier to escape from the gap, or the jumper you saved.  I might provide a side version later.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Nessy on October 08, 2020, 05:51:43 PM
After some thought I decided that so far everyone's solution to my Rule 3 is acceptable :) Special shoutout to Armani, however, for being able to save 4 different skills on it!

I also resolved Dullstar's level which might still be a backroute sadly :( but my solution to Shmolem and ericderkovits levels should be intended now :)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: ericderkovits on October 08, 2020, 07:15:18 PM
good job Nessy. Yes this is 100% intended. Also you took the 100% correct intended path.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Nessy on October 08, 2020, 10:27:48 PM
Quote from: ericderkovits
good job Nessy. Yes this is 100% intended. Also you took the 100% correct intended path.

Awesome :) I must confess, however, that I accidently spoiled part of the solution (when I checked to see if I had the right version because the pickup skill count was wrong but it was a problem on my end). Fortunately I did figure out the major parts of the solution that matter such as figuring out the "intended" path.

Not much I can do about that unfortunately :( but it was a pretty cool level nevertheless :thumbsup:


Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 09, 2020, 09:30:50 AM
Finally back to play the contest levels again after taking a few days break from them. I finally solved Crane's R1 level and resolved his R3 level. I also resolved Shmolem's and Dullstar's R1 levels.

Crane's R1 V3 Steeplechase (click to show/hide)


Dullstar's R1 V4 Alice (click to show/hide)

Shmolem's R1 V3 Leap of Faith (click to show/hide)

@Niesch My replay for your R2 still works, since the only thing you did was add the exit limit back, and your change to block off Armani's backroute doesn't break my replay. Also, your R1 is the only contest level left that remains unsolved for me, but I haven't given up on it yet. I just haven't attempted it enough ever since I came back to play the contest levels again earlier tonight. I'm sure I'll eventually get it given enough time ;) Hopefully the next time I post here I'll have a solving replay of your R1.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 11, 2020, 10:50:12 AM
Well, the fix seems not to work for Dullstar's level. :P  The backroute before was nicer and trickier.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: WillLem on October 12, 2020, 04:17:13 AM
And I got my videos up!

Thanks for uploading, these are a great watch as usual. :thumbsup:

The solution to The Diving Area is not intended; the timer is there to help enforce the intended solution, but I might try and find a way to do it without the timer seeing as it doesn't actually prevent somewhat messy alternatives.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Dullstar on October 13, 2020, 09:40:14 AM
While Icho's v4 backroute is certainly conceptually trickier, I must say the v5 backroute seems a lot more complicated than the v4 one to me considering the timing involved. It's also frustratingly close to what I had intended, and I can't possibly imagine this was easier to execute than what I'd intended.

I am unable to fix this level. If it is fixable, it will need the attention of someone who's better at this. It seems that every time I think I've fixed it, everyone just slightly modifies their backroutes in ways I didn't think possible and it's back to square one and still completely and utterly broken.

Here are the replay proofs for v4 and v5, alongside the level files since old versions are removed from the updates thread.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: ericderkovits on October 14, 2020, 05:41:53 AM
hey, Dullstar try doing this to help with the intended solution.


Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 14, 2020, 10:15:37 PM
Sorry to disappoint you, WillLem, but the jumpers are absolutely not needed in your new level IF you position the bombers correctly. See my attached replay. Easy fix, though: Increase the RR. Even more, just set it to 99. Otherwise, nice level and way too easy, much easier than your old level, in fact.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: ericderkovits on October 15, 2020, 02:03:21 AM
yes Willem, I also did it without the jumpers. Here is my replay though with the RR set to 99. And yes this level is super easy. I actually still liked your old one better. But of course this is your level, so it's your choice which one you want to be in the contest.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 15, 2020, 06:42:23 PM
From discord:

@WillLem You can indeed swap your entry, but then I need it in the correct naming format. ;P   I would put your old level in a bonus rank then. Seems like you got fixing to do anyway ;P
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 18, 2020, 12:33:41 AM
This should be intended now. If so, nice job and nice level. The suggested fix a few posts above for v5 would be fine, except that it enforces the stoner above the spike traps but doesn't enforce a blocker on top of the stoner. Instead, you can still block at the end inside the miner tunnel if you send another climber at the right time. In addition, it's like you said, the solution will probably be a bit more obvious as well. No offense to him, but he be the last person anyone would ask for help to fix levels, for the time being.

My suggested fix which might had worked for your V5 would had been something different, and that is to place a second right-facing entrance to the left and above the left spike traps so that you're forced to stone and block. The only thing I'm not sure about is if the miner would be able to hit the blocker to turn around.

edit: Just tried it out, and yes, he be able to. I would had provided my suggestion of a fix much earlier, but I was waiting to see if further suggestions for fixes came up, particularly since I have yet to get into level designing myself. Oh well, too late for that now.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Dullstar on October 18, 2020, 05:56:05 AM
@kaywhyn: you're not quite to the intended solution but this is pretty close. This is partially due to an error I made - when I was adjusting the skillset for the new solution, I had a few leftover skills, and I thought I removed them, but it would appear that I did not. In any case, it's certainly not an egregious backroute. Since I had meant to remove the blocker, I'm going to release a patch, but if you successfully modify this solution to work in v7, which will be released sometime today or tomorrow, I will consider this to be an acceptable variant (the only changes will be the removal of one blocker and one walker from the skillset, if you want to start working on a solution before then).

To be fair to eric, many of his levels are certainly on the easier side, but there's not necessarily anything wrong with that, though his suggested fix didn't really fit the vision I had for the level. The pack I've slowly been working on needs more easy levels and more hard levels, but at the end of the day I'm more comfortable pumping out the easy levels if I need more to balance out the difficulty, so I don't want to lose a potential late rank level to difficulty-reducing backroute fixes. I might look into your fix a bit for the future, though - I probably won't apply it to this level, but I might make a new level with it.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: ericderkovits on October 18, 2020, 06:12:07 AM
well my v5 of the level is certainly easier since I changed it by adding a disarmer which gave away the intended solution, thus making it easy. but the version before that many people thought is wasn't easy, including armani(although he really backrouted it). Also watch Icho's contest youtube on my level. From what I saw he struggled with it.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Dullstar on October 18, 2020, 08:49:45 AM
To clarify, most of Eric's levels that I've played so far are easy. There's nothing wrong with that, and that fact doesn't negate any harder levels that he's made. I don't want him to feel like he shouldn't offer suggestions when someone asks for help fixing a backroute, which I feel kaywhyn's post may have implied. Even though I chose not to go with his suggestion, it was something to at least consider. In this specific case I think it would have made the level too easy, so I chose a different solution, but that does not mean that eric's input was not appreciated.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 18, 2020, 09:48:57 AM
My post wasn't meant to imply that eric's fix wasn't appreciated at all. I thought it was a pretty good one, it just wouldn't enforce your intended solution 100%, since there's nothing to stop you from blocking inside the miner tunnel instead of on top of the stoner instead. And yes, I agree about how some fixes can end up making the solution much more obvious, and so I can understand why going with another fix is more desirable. It was for other unwanted actions around this place, but I've gotten over it and forgiven him, since he already apologized for his actions. Instead, I think as long as he takes responsibility for his actions and be aware of them that I think people will be more likely to ask him for help fixing levels in the future if need be. He definitely has potential. One good example is that I still haven't solved his v6 of his R1 despite spending about an hour on it earlier tonight while others have already solved it. I'm one skill short, but I'm really close. Nevertheless, I will praise him that his level is so much better with the fixes he put in and is definitely nowhere near as annoying anymore. 

There's definitely nothing wrong with making easier levels. This community can certainly use more of them, since I think that's where we're lacking tremendously. I consider them a really nice break from all the brutal hard levels I've been playing for the past several months.   
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 18, 2020, 11:45:09 AM
Ok my new solution to Dullstar's level is very close to my old solution again. :P
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: ericderkovits on October 18, 2020, 04:51:18 PM
@Dullstar If your referring to my Angry Lemmings being easy. Its because there in the Fun and Tricky ranks. There meant to be easy as the original lemmings ranks were easy too. I haven't uploaded the Taxing or Mayhem yet. But 1 level originally in the Fun rank I changed to an easier one since Namida couldn't solve it and put it in another rank although I thought it was easy that's why it was in the Fun rank but I guess it didn't belong in the Fun rank so I replaced it with another level which definitely is easy.

Note also I changed my level "This room is boiling for my Angry Lemmings pack made it a little harder since the one in the contest was made easier since it gave the solution away.

also I 100% agree with you Dullstar for not choosing it because it DOES give more of the intended solution away. I've noticed that when using pickup skills they tend to give solutions away but most of the time they are needed to fix backroutes. This is the reason I use them alot. Also I think using buttons help with fixing backroutes.

@Kaywhyn I'm not ever going to post anything about replays in Authors' packs again. I will just keep quiet about them from now on. So I'm sorry about that. That is the reason I removed my posts about the replays I have and need. I have no intention on bringing them back either.


Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: Dullstar on October 18, 2020, 11:38:08 PM
Ok my new solution to Dullstar's level is very close to my old solution again. :P

After v5, I didn't really have any ideas left regarding how to force my intended solution without walking the player through it step by step, so a new solution was put into place in v6.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 19, 2020, 12:18:06 AM
@Dullstar Yes, your v7 did break my replay, but it's a very easy fix. Exact same solution as v6, just need to interrupt the left-facing miner with a walker instead. Replay attached, although I know that you said that you have accepted this solution of mine. Again, let me make it clear that very easy levels like yours are a very welcome sight. Not a problem at all. I don't mind playing difficult ones, but I'm definitely burnt out by them to some extent having played nothing but mind-boggling and hair pulling brutal, hard ones for the last several months. It has also been really nice playing levels by other authors instead of from the same 3 people that I have played during that same time period.

Overall, nice job with this level ;)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 19, 2020, 07:48:08 PM
Hope this is intended now! :)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: WillLem on October 22, 2020, 06:20:43 PM
From discord:

@WillLem You can indeed swap your entry, but then I need it in the correct naming format. ;P   I would put your old level in a bonus rank then. Seems like you got fixing to do anyway ;P

Done. I posted it on Discord, but here it is as well for the record :lemcat:
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: ericderkovits on October 22, 2020, 06:55:44 PM
Hi Willlem, I noticed Icho put your V1 of Hopping Mad in the contest level. But I still solved it without the jumpers.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

here is my replay again not using the jumpers

Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 22, 2020, 10:47:39 PM
That was the fix I suggested for WillLem here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5145.msg86304#msg86304 (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5145.msg86304#msg86304). Also, to be fair to WillLem, he hasn't been on since posting his new contest level. That's why it's still a V1.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: WillLem on October 23, 2020, 12:05:39 AM
Here's V2. All 3 Jumpers are needed now, simply making the floor 2px solved the issue. I've also added decoration and some variation in the skillset so you're not just doing the same thing 3 times; it's much more of a Jumper showcase now. It's a little bit trickier as well, but still very likely to be one of the easier entries in the contest.

Enjoy! :lemcat:
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 23, 2020, 12:29:09 AM
Once again, should go in the update topic ;)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: ericderkovits on October 23, 2020, 12:30:54 AM
ok, but put your Hopping Mad level(.nxlv) in the Update topic. The Discussion topic is for posting replays and discussing levels. The Update topic is actually where the .nxlv goes

Edit: Wow Kaywhyn, we were saying this at the exact same time, sorry you must have beat me just ahead of me.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 23, 2020, 12:44:57 AM
@WillLem Replay for your R1 V2 attached. Yes, great fix and your contest level is a few times much better overall with the variation and decoration, even if it's still quite easy. In particular,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

@ericderkovits It's ok. I got in ahead by almost 2 minutes. I also got in ahead of you with our suggested fix for WillLem's level, but there I was several hours ahead ;) In any case, I agree with WillLem's take on his revision. It's so much better than our suggestion of just simply having the RR already start as maxed out even though it's the easiest fix and doesn't involve any changing level design-wise. Making the floor completely thin is also just as easy, but it totally escaped us and is definitely a much better fix overall. Not only that, the other changes he made resulted in the level being so much better!
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: ericderkovits on October 23, 2020, 12:55:01 AM
yes, William I like this level better, but I solved it with using only 2 jumpers. This I know though is NOT intended since in the intended solution it requires to use at least 3 jumpers.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: WillLem on October 23, 2020, 10:06:47 AM
Thanks for the feedback guys, here's V3 which fixes Eric's backroute. I've also tidied up the layout a bit and moved the level start to the centre.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on October 23, 2020, 10:21:51 AM
@WillLem as was stated above, any updates to your level and the level file should go in the update topic, not this one. As for your R1 V3, my replay for your V2 still works, and so no resolving needed on my part.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: WillLem on October 23, 2020, 09:09:14 PM
My bad, I've now put it into the correct topic :P
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 23, 2020, 11:25:29 PM
I think this could be intended. :)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: WillLem on October 24, 2020, 11:54:43 PM
@IchoTolot

I like it! It's very similar to the intended solution but addresses the problem of needing to turn the cloned Lemming around in an alternative way. Super stuff! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on October 29, 2020, 09:58:10 PM
From tomorrow on the videos of my updated solutions for the contest levels will pop up as well as the solutions to my own levels. :)
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on November 01, 2020, 10:32:25 AM
Before I forget, here are my solutions to Icho's contest entries. I pre-tested them, but my solutions are here so you can compare yours to mine.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on November 04, 2020, 06:39:16 PM
Updates are closed now!

If you want to get a last look at the levels before voting starts do it now. ;)

I link my updated playthrough of the contest level as well:

Rule 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToH4yUlxZrA
Rule 2+3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQMCrQGP8kU
My own entries: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIlc1BD1sgc&t=2s
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: kaywhyn on November 06, 2020, 10:20:08 AM
So far, Niesch's R1 and Armani's R3 levels remain unsolved for me (at least the newest version for Armani, since I backrouted several of the previous versions). I was going to wait until I had solved them before posting my replays, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to get them solved before voting starts. I know it's not necessary to have them solved before it, but it would be nice if I can. I think I'll get them one of these days, though :P

However, I do have a working solution for eric's R1 level. In particular, it's a no disarmer solution, so definitely not the intended solution, but it still uses all skills. This one still took me a long time for me to find, though. Very fascinating that even with the disarmer pickup the solution still wasn't that obvious to me at all :crylaugh: I've watched the intended solution and I seriously cannot believe I never ever saw that route. Still, after a lot of struggling, I was finally able to solve it. Due to taking the old route, I was always 1 shimmier short. Managed to get around that by finding this solution.
Title: Re: Level Design Contest #21 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
Post by: IchoTolot on November 07, 2020, 11:42:00 PM
Will put up the voting phase probably tomorrow then. :)