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Lemmings Boards => Tech & Research => Topic started by: Aaron44126 on June 21, 2020, 07:24:26 PM

Title: Release: Lemmix Players V29I (unofficial)
Post by: Aaron44126 on June 21, 2020, 07:24:26 PM
I am releasing version V29A builds of the Lemmix players (https://www.neolemmix.com/?page=download_list&program=42).

Background —
This all started because I just wanted to just do a Lemmings play-through (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4812.msg81989#msg81989) and ended up settling on the Lemmix players for this.  However, I noticed a bug with explosion particles not getting cleaned up (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4867.msg82546#msg82546).  I figured, the source code is here, I know a thing or two about coding, and it doesn't look like anyone else is really interested in fixing the issue, so I came up with a fix myself.  One thing led to another and I ended up fixing a few more things and adding a couple of minor features, and now I have a release.

I'm posting the binaries here on GitHub (along with the source code changes):
https://github.com/AaronKelley/LemmixPlayer/releases


[Edit] Added V29B.

[Edit] Added V29C.

[Edit] Added V29D.

[Edit] Added V29E.

[Edit] Added V29F.

[Edit] Added V29G.

[Edit] Added V29H.

[Edit] Added V29I.
Just some minor string changes:

I named it "V29A" to differentiate it from an official release — I would expect the next one, if there ever is one, would be named "V30" and I didn't want to create the possibility of confusion with that.

The decision to include Lemmings for Windows 95 keyboard shortcuts, when there are already similar shortcuts available that use the F1-F12 keys, was made for two reasons.  One, I spent a decent amount of time with that game in the past so I was already used to the shortcuts.  Two, these keys are probably more comfortable on a laptop, where F1-F12 keys are smaller and maybe even "hijacked" for other functions like volume control.  (My primary PC is a laptop as well.)

The option to disable state control came out of my desire to have a more "classic" play experience.  I found myself using the "back up time" feature too often on the mayhem levels and decided that it would be best if I could just remove the temptation to make the game easier.

This issue with the "Cagey Business" level was reported by another user in this thread (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4728.0).

The code might not be as clean as it could/should be.  This is my first time doing anything with Delphi or Pascal.  I was careful not to change anything except for where I needed to.  The only change that impacts the game logic at all is the nuke timing fix.

I'll leave it up to ccexplore and/or namida to decide if any of these changes should be brought in to an official release.
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29A (unofficial)
Post by: ericderkovits on June 21, 2020, 07:40:12 PM
thx aaron I downloaded it. I'm the one who reported level 33 psp originally unsolvable. It now works. thx a lot now I can test my replays from v29. I noticed I had to make a new one for the v29a though.
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29A (unofficial)
Post by: ericderkovits on June 21, 2020, 11:06:13 PM
oh and here are 2 levels i uploaded that were fixed.

psp29 A Bridge of lemming slaughter. After the lemmings exit the hatch there supposed to land on the leftmost side of column.
psp32 Gather round and break away. the lemmings after dropping from 2nd level they are not supposed to land and build on bottommost level. This one I checked for Proxima using my PSPPSP PSP lemmings rom that's why I know because Proxima is doing the redo of the original levels and I replied to a thread he had.

also psp29 same thing in official PSP rom the lemmings land on the leftmost side of column after exiting hatch.

I have uploaded the new fixed .lvl for the lemmix players that you can open with the old editor.(0629.lvl and 0633.lvl)
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29A (unofficial)
Post by: Aaron44126 on June 21, 2020, 11:07:38 PM
Ok, great, thanks for fixing those levels...  I didn't notice that you had posted them before (if you did).  I will get those integrated into the game and post an update in a bit.
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29B (unofficial)
Post by: Aaron44126 on June 21, 2020, 11:53:11 PM
I published an update "V29B" which has these PSP level fixes.
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29B (unofficial)
Post by: ericderkovits on June 22, 2020, 12:20:08 AM
great, I wouldn't caught the level 32 on my own until Proxima was asking about the 2nd to level to 3rd level drop so I used the PSPPSP emulator with the Lemmings roms to play and told him(he is doing for neolemmix though). the level 29 one I Caught on my own.

Im sure others may respond with theirs. Also I think Eric Lang was doing an upgraded lemmix version but haven't heard from him in a while on the forums. the one I have downloaded from his github a few months back was 2.0.7 beta. if you use the search bar  in the forums and enter his name you can see his threads mentioning his.
 
also the level 29 you can see someone starting that level (on youtube) and seeing the lemmings land on left edge of pillar after entering.
 the level 32 you can't tell from youtube videos(I think thats why Proxima needed help on this one). the level 29 he probably knew  by the video
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29B (unofficial)
Post by: ericderkovits on June 22, 2020, 12:48:18 AM
just noticed another mistake in level32 after building from 2nd level to next drop, yours needs to also have it so when the lemmings fall into the first fire trap (on left and rightmost edges) there supposed to die. They still die elsewhere.  you will have to realign trap. sorry about that, I just remember somebody posting about that too but for neolemmix
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29B (unofficial)
Post by: Aaron44126 on June 22, 2020, 02:07:31 AM
Ok, I see that the Lemmings are able to walk around beneath the fire trap but they die if you try to build out of it after three steps.  I'll see if I can correct the trap position.
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29C (unofficial)
Post by: Aaron44126 on June 22, 2020, 02:25:05 AM
Ok... Easier now that I am a bit more used to the Lemmix editor.  I corrected the trap position and pushed a new release.

I am aware that Eric Lang has sort of recently started working on Lemmix again.  I decided to start with the versions from the NeoLemmix site as they seem to be the most refined, carefully set up to use mechanics/bugs exactly from the DOS version.  Not really intending to cause a big split, nor am I intending to do any further major work; I just wanted to fix some issues that I saw and make a few tweaks to the gameplay to better suit my own playstyle, and share the results.  Happy to continue to fix issues with these players as people report it as long as it is minor-ish and within my ability.
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29D (unofficial)
Post by: Aaron44126 on June 24, 2020, 04:04:38 PM
Added V29D, which disables loading a save state if state control is disabled.  (Just now figured out the keyboard shortcuts for load and save state.)
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29F (unofficial)
Post by: Aaron44126 on August 08, 2020, 06:59:00 PM
Found another level with an issue.  This was also in the "Extra" pack, "Other" level 10, "Don't Make The Wrong Choice!"

In this case the exit is placed in such a way that the Lemmings are not able to hop into it.  They walk right beneath it.

(https://i9y0bg.bn.files.1drv.com/y4m0ot-Umuk1aIiCLPritGxQAQHZE26WbSHL3crvdsyoaYo7qj6tPUMqmcxGWRKLZYfOjsN1dXK6Gfmgy38kbQ1R4SzXjVNn8yj2mIoC_vfbMKkITPu-1PBBts-soKbLLcoFuVravuXks8A0FiWkie8F6AJwrS6baUei-5W8HSX3BpbWP5ApwD-iiQxNmSf1bMNkYrtERF3ITHPAk_MZ149ow?width=1024&height=576&cropmode=none)

Lowering the exit into the terrain doesn't work (probably the trigger window Y-axis multiple of four thing).  I ended up raising the entire upper metal platform structure by two pixels.  The Lemmings are able to exit, and even though the layout is changed slightly, it doesn't change the solution.

(https://vlbceq.bn.files.1drv.com/y4m4RjJhNHeZL3sBjdD_Uz_0MkgLbhEhKtTdCrK5RbytYhEuRClkRrIO-1MqXjxWctNyrLcAMBJ76KiA7klwX7qjHFMHXy9bT20GFqJGDhmTBwiZm7hYFufVH02lclBk0qnBBSmiYoAU6Ei0d5sks7HgRueXbABqoP6mw4D72_AzS6JdgP8o8p7p7LlLw4s-DalCwkTNRg7l0eZ-t-feDvz-A?width=1024&height=576&cropmode=none)

This fix is published as version V29F.
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29F (unofficial)
Post by: namida on August 08, 2020, 07:26:36 PM
Moving the exit down so that the exit is at a Y coordinate with a multiple of 4 and touching or buried in the ground, would fix it.

With that being said - I strongly suggest reverting this change. Lemmix's goal is to reproduce the official gameplay / levels accurately - and the flaw you note on that level is present on the legit Amiga version of the level too.
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29F (unofficial)
Post by: Aaron44126 on August 08, 2020, 07:42:59 PM
It looks like I would have to lower the exit by four pixels in order to fix the problem (without otherwise adjusting the terrain) and at that point it starts to look kind of odd with how buried in the platform it is so I decided that raising the terrain slightly instead was the way to go.  I did it carefully to make sure that it had minimal impact on the appearance of the level and basically zero impact on the solution to the level.

I didn't realize that the exit issue occurs in the Amiga version.  (I found this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwKd_2zE6WI) which shows Lemmings exiting even though the exit is raised.)  When trying to figure out what was up with this level, I checked and saw that this level is present in the Sega Master System and Game Gear versions of the game (under the name "Nearly There...") and it does not have the issue in those ports.  The purpose of these updates (which I am sharing, but doing mostly for myself) is just to improve the experience for a casual player who wants to play through these original levels on a modern system; having an unsolvable level runs counter to that so I'm going to keep this "fix" in place.  Of course, should you guys ever decide to take some of these updates and merge them upstream, it wouldn't bother me at all if you decide to leave this "fix" out.
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29F (unofficial)
Post by: namida on August 08, 2020, 07:54:24 PM
Quote
When trying to figure out what was up with this level, I checked and saw that this level is present in the Sega Master System and Game Gear versions of the game (under the name "Nearly There...") and it does not have the issue in those ports.

These ports have very, very different physics from DOS / Amiga, and all levels are entirely remade from scratch for it. It should not be taken as authoritative in any way about how DOS / Amiga behave.

Are you sure the level is impossible? I don't recall for sure, but I think I would have tested that at some point? If it truly is impossible, or if the issue in fact doesn't happen on Amiga (though I'll note that the LVL file is a direct rip, so in such a case this would point to an inconsistency between Amiga and DOS - which while rare, is not unheard of), then there is more grounds for an adjustment. However, I'd still argue very strongly in favor of a "move the exit" approach in this case - higher terrain can have subtle impacts on challenge solutions etc.
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29F (unofficial)
Post by: Proxima on August 08, 2020, 08:18:29 PM
It is definitely possible to arrive at the exit with a spare builder to get around the problem.

I don't have any strong view on fixing or not fixing this. On the one hand, Lemmix players should preserve the authentic gameplay of the original because their main purpose is challenges -- casual players are better off being directed to NeoLemmix. On the other hand, this group of levels has never been included in any of the original-game challenges, not even maximum saves.
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29F (unofficial)
Post by: Aaron44126 on August 08, 2020, 08:20:07 PM
Seems like you would have to build up to access the inaccessible exit right?  The 9 builder skills available are all necessary to reach the exit area as far as I can tell.  It might be possible to just squeak by and skip one of them but that's not how solutions to the Amiga and SMS versions of the game that I have seen work (it would be counter to the level designers intent for how the level should work in any case).

[Edit]
Just saw Proxima's response.  I considered NeoLemmix when starting my casual play-through but was put off by some of the decisions like forced "skill shadows".  I'm looking for a more authentic classic experience that doesn't remove the execution difficulty, and these Lemmix Players fit the bill.  This is why I've also added options to remove the ability to rewind, frame step, assign skills while paused, etc.

In any case.  I'll make an update that moves the exit only and leaves the terrain alone.
This video shows Lemmings exiting even with the raised exit on Amiga so there seems to be a difference there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwKd_2zE6WI
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29G (unofficial)
Post by: Aaron44126 on August 08, 2020, 10:09:15 PM
Published V29G, level "fixed" by burying the exit (no terrain adjustment).  Looks a little silly, but it works...

(https://yaxj4q.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mWrakpE_lU2FDLGH6Y-9V6nVoed3n55e8l6szG5mGIBGkF_rUUBfyqs8o0y7A74CYQcGkSy_vearfL0DlFT3xoM9zxbopg2-HZq_kOYsns1MKgR3xllCZ39zudGlk2jfWkW6nPZGv4tewsHoguld5z2C7VG6bbjGxWHHXQliicnszLfbp0qWE-iZajZxLGAVSb5TKOaUnqffqLEp3Yofgvg?width=1024&height=576&cropmode=none)
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29G (unofficial)
Post by: Aaron44126 on September 05, 2020, 02:30:19 AM
Before I make an adjustment, I am curious what you think of this one.  It is in the "Extra" pack, "Sega" level 10.  It is called "Stepping Stones".

(https://hwcpza.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mD8ozTSPojgEjGWdZXqx76mVqZj1QLYsgQ7uvaNDI9VDUwe0LL6OSPa5mGi3dGpT1-b3gPbSAPrWbmCUrGcAGQmtXRgn5GX1Bc2ESEO9xSsA_-oLWxvwsE7brBHV2K8NiW0ZrRdzF65zbyKmrU49hoWVlmsRghahDFlyT_z00p69-gOFn6DvcigXqwy2G_xwvDfccGloOqlrOzHj4RFvYqA?width=1024&height=576&cropmode=none)

It is a variant of Mayhem level 21 "With a twist of lemming please".

The entrance is too high and the lemmings splat when they hit the ground.  Mayhem 21 has enough floaters to save them all, but Sega 10 just offers 2 floater skills.  It also has 20 total lemmings and you have to bring 85% to the goal, so only three are allowed to splat.

I guess you are supposed to float a couple of lemmings at the start and quickly get steps built so that the remaining ones won't splat.  I haven't found a way to do it with less than 4 splatting.  One set of steps is not enough, you need to build two and it takes too long.

The SMS version which this level is based on is set up in such a way that you can keep lemmings from splatting with just one builder skill.  Float the first lemming, have him build right to left, float the second one, and then the rest will fall safely.  This doesn't work in the Lemmix Player version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiyKNaEcf5o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiyKNaEcf5o)
(Just looking at the first ≈35 seconds here, I haven't even thought about the rest of the level yet.)

As such I feel that an adjustment to this level is needed so that the original SMS strategy will work.  The simplest thing seems to be to lower the entrance by a few pixels.
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29G (unofficial)
Post by: kaywhyn on September 05, 2020, 02:41:26 AM
Hey Aaron, no adjustment is needed to the level.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29G (unofficial)
Post by: namida on September 05, 2020, 02:46:07 AM
Honestly, a better job could have probably been done here than just "take existing DOS layout, apply SMS skillset / stats". For example, the RR hasn't been adjusted to account for the difference in SMS release rates vs DOS ones (SMS release rates are more comparable to those of NeoLemmix than to those of DOS / Lemmix).

This is my fault as I'm the one who produced this "conversion" of that level.
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29G (unofficial)
Post by: Aaron44126 on September 05, 2020, 02:53:54 AM
Quote from: kaywhyn on September 05, 2020, 02:41:26 AM
Hey Aaron, no adjustment is needed to the level.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I don't think that you should have to invoke a trick that wasn't necessary in the level that this one is based on.
I'll make a tweak and post back with what I come up with.

I did just finish playing through the rest of the SMS converted levels and it was pretty fun, no real issues with any of them except this one.
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29G (unofficial)
Post by: kaywhyn on September 05, 2020, 03:32:37 AM
There was a very similar level that used Mayhem 21's layout that was a LDC I played just a few days ago for United that uses the exact same trick at the beginning, but the solution relied on the fact that bombers are untimed in NL, and so on engines without it it wouldn't be possible without tweaking the level or save requirement. Yes, it doesn't quite use the same things the original solutions used, but there's nothing wrong with taking an existing level and making a level that has a very different solution.

In any case, it's your call as to what you want to do with the level, as I'm not going to be nitpicky that the level should be left as it is. I simply wanted to explain that the level is possible in its current state in that it requires a bit of clever usage of the skills to get onto a higher place to make a splatform with just one bridge. I will gladly play any Lemmings level as long as it's solvable. 
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29G (unofficial)
Post by: Aaron44126 on September 05, 2020, 03:22:54 PM
I adjusted the layout to more closely match the SMS layout, while keeping the "aesthetic" of the Mayhem/DOS level.  I also lowered the release rate (as namida mentioned, it is slower on SMS).  The level can be completed using the same strategy as the SMS level (with 100% / 0 splats).

I have the LVL file here if anyone would like to playtest it or offer feedback; I'll bundle it up and release in a few days.

(https://6vjnkq.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mMtrlozJkJBQAyD6-Fq_JVrzJTMBAmE89nR7dZtj0B8iFSpUPDbFr_ABHkRXUqIRe3JfX4qsSEfSVsgUe-eNblPlhEz2hNCJWaHj8JSZsh2jjpK-3ahLm6MDeYeU8e_vwpyOOWkOQ5YHK5ohgHG3fGb6qcl5NEuhJYR7CEYcJV-uyjTZ8mrWOdecLQxJIepRo6T6y21VksOXukUafboOTZQ?width=1024&height=414&cropmode=none)

(https://t37ahg.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mU9wag5vwAmtxxxN0bh4Fv-isEoVQ76dr8-tAphfYoHmesbJhlVW5NULtcRA7xzMH-0XQZrO8QqurKWf76x3-dO1jxEwn0mciXM3cJJ7rBBNpJsqzQ41Pjfv4zVVCegUIPOyEPIjh26Z5CFLopM1cB3Qah3zAjH9AJrUA_414rIrhN0M8jYH7ymzuqcNc9wyexoXYSXLtSny15hI-xh2aqA?width=1024&height=576&cropmode=none)

[Edit] Realized that I definitely need to adjust it... there is too much brick before the "gap" on the left side.
[Edit 2] Fixed.
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29G (unofficial)
Post by: namida on September 05, 2020, 08:38:32 PM
I wonder if it's worth replicating the steel at the bottom too? I can definitely think of solutions that take advantage of the lack of steel, that would not have worked on actual SMS.
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29G (unofficial)
Post by: Aaron44126 on September 05, 2020, 09:21:12 PM
Reasonable...
Just figuring out steel for the first time in the editor, I think I have a good recreation here.  The dimensions of the steel boxes are off slightly from the SMS version because the available objects to choose from are all two pixels shorter in each dimension, but close enough I think.

(https://6vjnkq.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mMtrlozJkJBQAyD6-Fq_JVrzJTMBAmE89nR7dZtj0B8iFSpUPDbFr_ABHkRXUqIRe3JfX4qsSEfSVsgUe-eNblPlhEz2hNCJWaHj8JSZsh2jjpK-3ahLm6MDeYeU8e_vwpyOOWkOQ5YHK5ohgHG3fGb6qcl5NEuhJYR7CEYcJV-uyjTZ8mrWOdecLQxJIepRo6T6y21VksOXukUafboOTZQ?width=1024&height=414&cropmode=none)

(https://takz5a.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mVDMcrg0n3N38Z-idha87LzBiUIx7xIYCtgEA_rKicZMJswgOeTHHvMQRX4dZjKQVYk24eOY3Iiaj1KsP06VssKcIoeR4en_141jDrvbms_-3a8n7heOW2D9a44IpajANISeCiQqttr3TRnWX0PXWhS7YALZ_dXBleUDVOoQTNyTU5ZkKB-abHNY9wmpcAiYE_DTdtSelFj9giCqw6ajfLg?width=1024&height=576&cropmode=none)

[Edit] Just tidying up the terrain...
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29I (unofficial)
Post by: EricLang on February 03, 2021, 11:23:01 PM
I started following this thread and the github with interest :-)
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29I (unofficial)
Post by: Aaron44126 on February 04, 2021, 12:05:43 AM
Quote from: EricLang on February 03, 2021, 11:23:01 PM
I started following this thread and the github with interest :-)
Ha, thanks...  And thank you very much for the work that you put into the base version of Lemmix, I definitely appreciate having a platform to play Lemmings in a "classic" fashion, in a "sort of" modern way at the same time.

I've just been tweaking as I find things but I don't think that I'll be doing much more.  Hopefully this is helpful for anyone else who wants a classic Lemmings experience on a modern system (no "shortcuts" or help with execution!).

Since the last update, I got through all of the Christmas/holiday levels without spotting any issues...  I still have to go through the Genesis ones and ONML but I'm not really expecting to see anything there either as it looks like they should have been ported cleanly from the original versions.
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29I (unofficial)
Post by: EricLang on February 04, 2021, 01:01:35 AM
Thank you. I will checkout this thread soon for ideas.
With the latest Lemmix (sioon on github) I will provide a set of 4300 levels which I gathered from the internet. If you have new "Lemmix compatible" levels let me know :-)
I am thinking of creating a dedicated new editor as well for this game. The old program is too old on new windows versions.
Another advantage would be that the internal levelsystem is known (including all user levels) and there is no complicated setup needed.
Still thinking what is the best way to go...

Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29I (unofficial)
Post by: EricLang on February 07, 2021, 10:50:58 PM
I think the new lemmix meets all the needs for  this clone.
When you wish so, put in some issues in https://github.com/ericlangedijk/Lemmix/issues regarding the changes. and I can build them in.
Like the key-bindings and "classic experience".
Title: Re: Release: Lemmix Players V29I (unofficial)
Post by: Aaron44126 on April 02, 2021, 02:44:21 AM
Having trouble with "Don't follow me", number 20 in the Genesis pack, and I'm wondering if it's impossible because of the engine rules or if I'm just doing it wrong.

(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/lemmings/images/f/f6/GenesisTricky30.png)

You just have three miner skills, and ten Lemmings which must all survive.  You're supposed to used the first two miner skills on the ramps heading up so that the Lemmings don't splat or get trapped.  The third miner skill has to be used at the very end of the horizontal platform so that both the miner and the lemming immediately trailing him do not splat off the end.

Here's a video of the solution (on the actual Genesis version).  It's TAS but that doesn't really matter, the solution is simple.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1ELsGGMvbM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1ELsGGMvbM)

In Lemmix, the problem for me is at the very end when the third miner skill is used.  I can save the trailing lemming but the miner himself always splats.  This doesn't really make sense to me because they fall the same distance (or if anything the miner's fall is actually a little bit less).  Is it possible to save the miner with a very specific placement of the skill or something, or maybe this level also needs an adjustment?

(Also, knocking just one pixel off of the horizontal platform doesn't seem to be enough to save the immediately trailing lemming as shown in the video, but two pixels appears to do it.)