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NeoLemmix => NeoLemmix Levels => In Development => Topic started by: Proxima on May 30, 2020, 06:55:15 PM

Title: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Proxima on May 30, 2020, 06:55:15 PM

After a recent discussion that I won't link to since it involved several different threads and was partly on discord, I am taking over maintenance of the NeoLemmix versions of official levels.

I have attached a zip of the current levelpacks, in the last version offered by namida. I am designating this version 0.1.0 going forward.

Please note that, for challenge purposes, this is a work in progress. I expect that I will only be making cosmetic changes that won't affect gameplay much, if at all. However, if using these levels for challenges, be aware that at the moment, I consider the packs to be a work in progress, and future changes may possibly invalidate results. When I consider the packs to be finished, I'll show that by moving the version number to 1.0.0.

Changes I definitely intend to make:

* Restoring the decorative terrain to "Call in the bomb squad" and "Save Me" (and maybe other levels, but these two stand out);
* Adding WillLem's conversions of the special graphics entrances/exits to the special graphics levels;
* Adding other official levels, where NL conversions exist (L2 Classic tribe, and NES/ZX Spectrum levels);
* Splitting the "Extra Levels" pack into separate packs for 2P, Genesis, PSP, and others.

I will also look through the packs to see if there are other changes that I feel need to be made, or changes namida has made that I disagree with :P If there are, I'll post about any changes I intend to make so that the community can give feedback.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Minim on June 01, 2020, 07:16:11 PM

Having been through the PSP levels, some of them have little gaps in the terrain, and some of the traps' trigger areas are not quite in the right place, particularly on one of the fire levels. Should we fix these first? Here are the levels concerned:

19 and 27: The starting area has some terrain gaps, meaning that the player can simply contain the right edge of 19 using a miner. Comparing the two together, 27's gaps are much bigger. Also the screen start of 27 is set to the exit door rather than the entrance, which will always be an unnecessary chore for the player. AFAIK the PSP version always sets the screen start at the middle of the entrance.

22: A few gaps in the terrain here as well. This time the gap (particularly the one on the bottom right corner) is too close for a miner to be able to contain the lemmings.

32: The coal trap's trigger area is placed two pixels too far to the right and too high, meaning the lems won't be killed by the trap when they fall in.

Other than that, things are looking just fine for PSP.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: ericderkovits on June 01, 2020, 08:51:58 PM

I added the extra levels music tracks in the level design area. Check it out.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Proxima on June 01, 2020, 10:50:41 PM

Thanks for the look! I'm not at all familiar with the PSP version, but fortunately Luis has a playthrough of the Special levels (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_ICH7qAIWg) which I can use for reference. Since we have some momentum on these levels, I'll go through them first and see what adjustments need to be made.

Changelog (click to show/hide)

1: Shrunk to 320x160 since the level was so little above this, it was worth the effort to fit it on one screen.
4: Moved some of the rock terrain pieces behind others so the landscape looks neater.
10: Adjusted trap position, now that the rope trap's trigger area has been fixed.
19: Adjusted position of traps, and fixed the pixel gaps in the starting area as Minim suggested.
20: Adjusted position of fire pit.
22: Fixed the pixel gaps in terrain chunks.
25: Removed the duplicated top row of terrain, which seems to be a mistake and looked rather ugly.
27: Fixed the pixel gaps in the large terrain mass, and fixed the screen start.
30: Adjusted position of rope traps; set hatch to no-overwrite.
31: Adjusted position of fire pit.
32: Adjusted position of fire pit.

I'm nearly ready to post these levels as finished, but first I need to decide what we're doing about the music, and there's also one small point that I can't resolve without being able to play the original levels:

(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/249720184116477956/717146108085928066/gather_round.png)
(Level 32 - Gather round and break away)

Where I've circled the terrain in yellow, the platform is one pixel left of the platform below, so the lemmings can fall from this platform to the lower terrain and build there. Should this be possible or not?

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Proxima on June 01, 2020, 11:30:29 PM

I've put up a temporary download (https://www.dropbox.com/s/0tk1xotihpqaki2/PSP%20Levels.zip?dl=0) for the PSP levels and music. If you just want the levels, I've attached them to this post. [EDIT: Removed attachement to fix Level 32. The fixed version is attached to my post just below.]

Please note:
* The levels expect the PSP music tracks to be in a subfolder of the music folder. (The zip linked above will automatically install them in the correct subfolder.) If you already have the PSP music tracks, please move them into a subfolder called "PSP".
* From this version on, the PSP levels are a separate pack, not part of "Extra Levels". If you already have the original levels installed, I recommend deleting the PSP rank from Extra Levels to avoid duplication.
* The dropbox link is temporary, because I am not able to guarantee permanent hosting for such a large zip. Unfortunately, it is too large for a forum attachment, so I don't know what the best solution is in this case.
* The question I raised above regarding terrain on Level 32 is still open, so that level might still change. Other levels should be final now.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: ericderkovits on June 02, 2020, 12:14:06 AM

I have the PSP lemmings rom for PPSSPP emulator but unfornutely I only made it through level 11. if you gave me time I could continue playing on this emulator and see what happens in level 32.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: ericderkovits on June 02, 2020, 03:52:16 AM

Regarding the level 32 PSP Gather round and break away. NO the lemmings fall straight down the shaft. never hit the bottom floor. They can NOT build from the lower level. I finally got to level 32 on PSP level using the PSP rom in PPSSPP. There needs to be a pixel change either the bottom level left 1 or the upper level right one so the lemmings can never build from the lower level.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Minim on June 02, 2020, 04:37:15 AM

Noticed a bug already. :P The level name "A Bridge over Lemming Slaughter" doesn't match the name on the levels.nxmi file "A Bridge over Lemming Slaugter", therefore a group of popups appear when loading up NL. The latter needs to be updated.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Minim on June 03, 2020, 09:10:03 PM

A few screen starts need fixing in Holiday Lemmings, having just completed the pack. The levels in question are:

Hail 9
Hail 10: First entrance is the far left, which the screen start doesn't view, and they're the only group prone to the death drop below.
Blitz 10 and Hail 14: Screen is in the middle where the exit is. Preferably the right entrance for both levels, as these lems die quicker than the left if no skills are assigned.
Blitz 6

I must point out that Hail 12 is a tad more interesting, even though it's not saying that much. You can't just simply build over each gap or they'll die to the ceiling above. You'll need to be more creative with where to assign the builders.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: ccexplore on June 03, 2020, 10:18:10 PM

That's a good point actually.  There are definitely a decent number of levels that would be noticeably affected by the ceiling differences.  (Noticeable as in, the player almost certainly will run into the difference as they try to solve the level, or even just merely let it run on it own for a little bit; they don't need to go out of their way to get lemmings to reach the ceiling boundary.)  Are we leaving the levels as-is and let the differences stand, or will we try to add or modify the terrain slightly to help turn around the lemmings that would otherwise step over the boundary and die?

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Proxima on June 03, 2020, 10:37:07 PM

I'm definitely open to discussion on this, but at the moment my plans are:

* Specifically for the Genesis levels, add terrain wherever necessary to prevent lemmings hitting the ceiling. (I believe namida has already done this where it's essential, but there may be more places where it would be preferable.) These levels were made for one specific version of Lemmings and that version has solid ceiling behaviour; some levels (most infamously Lemmings' Ark) depend on this in their intended solutions.
* For other levels, leave it and accept deadly ceiling behaviour. These levels already exist on several platforms that have varying behaviour, so there isn't one and only one correct behaviour.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Proxima on June 03, 2020, 11:15:51 PM

Anyhow, let's do Holiday next, since Minim's started us on that, and it shouldn't need much work.

I've attached the current version of the Holiday pack, which has these changes from namida's version:

* Ranks are in the order Flurry, Blizzard, Frost, Hail (i.e. '93 then '94).
* Rank 2 is named Blizzard, which I understand is the original name from the Amiga version (it fits the theme naming, anyhow). Obviously, when referring to this rank in challenge topics, both "Blizzard" and "Blitz" are acceptable since neither can be confused with any other rank.
* As Minim suggested, I've changed the screen start locations on Blizzard 6, Hail 9 and Hail 10. (Of these, only Hail 10 is in Redux. I checked Redux and we had already made this change there.)

I have not changed, nor do I intend to:

* Steel on Flurry 6 "Lemming Snowfall" is actually steel.
* Blizzard 3 "Check Your Hints" has only one exit -- the fake exits are just removed.
* Hail 12 "Merry Christmaze" is harder (but still possible) due to the deadly ceiling.

Changes that I am considering or intend to make:

* Should we combine this and Xmas 91/92 into a single pack?
* On Frost 13 "2 minutes before midnight", I should restore the original level width, since the abrupt cut-off doesn't look good. There may be other cases, but this is the only one that stood out on a quick skim through the pack.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: ccexplore on June 03, 2020, 11:32:53 PM

Quote from: Proxima on June 03, 2020, 10:37:07 PM

These levels already exist on several platforms that have varying behavior

Can someone remind me which platforms have deadly ceiling?  I don't remember any details confidently off top of my head, but I want to say that the versions where ceiling does not turn around lemmings, typically just let the lemming pass through (ie. they can walk up and over the ceiling boundary).  But I could be remembering wrong.  Lemmings 2 definitely have deadly ceiling (and deadly all other boundaries) even for "standard" versions like Amiga and DOS, but I'm specifically talking about the games (and their ports) before L2.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Proxima on June 03, 2020, 11:38:22 PM

I've asked namida whether he'd be willing to make a tool that will set all hatches and exits in a level folder to no-overwrite (making them appear behind terrain). If namida is able to do this, then I intend to use it for all these packs. The main reason is that with no-overwrite off, new terrain (from builder bricks) disappears behind objects, making it harder to see what's happening. As far as I'm concerned, it should always be on for these objects in NL, unless there is a very specific reason -- and I don't think that applies to any of the original levels.

Quote from: ccexplore on June 03, 2020, 11:32:53 PM

Can someone remind me which platforms have deadly ceiling?

I don't know that myself (I don't even know for Mac Lemmings, the version I grew up with!) but it's probably documented somewhere on the forum. I'll have a look.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: kaywhyn on June 04, 2020, 02:05:35 AM

Wait, you mean to say that you don't remember what happened on Mayhem 28 Mind the Step? Well, I can provide the answer, as I just tested it. In that level, the lemming simply turns around, so the ceiling is not deadly on the Macintosh version. I think most of us here are familiar with the Dos version, myself included, and we know that the ceiling is not deadly there. 

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Proxima on June 04, 2020, 02:25:44 AM

Kind of hard to remember a level I probably only ever played once :P The rest of the game was so... nothingy after being stuck on Steel Mines of Kessel for ten years. There were some levels, they happened, and I doubt I would remember them at all if it weren't for the forum and revisiting them for challenges :P

Anyway, namida has provided me with a tool for converting hatches and exits to no-overwrite, so I will be doing that in the next update. I should also move this topic to "In Development" as long as it's a work in progress.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: kaywhyn on June 04, 2020, 03:01:02 AM

Haha all good man. I'm just messing with you. You do bring up a good point that one time things from a very young age tend to not be remembered, especially if the event is a very obscure one. Even though I'm in my early 30s, I'm already at the point where I'm easily forgetting things these days and so my memory isn't as good as it used to be.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Minim on June 04, 2020, 05:27:21 AM

Quote from: Proxima on June 03, 2020, 11:15:51 PM

* Hail 12 "Merry Christmaze" is harder (but still possible) due to the deadly ceiling.

Speaking of harder but still possible levels, Frost 12 is also possible with the original layout; However namida already fixed the level by adding an icicle in the top-left hand corner. I was able to resolve it again; attached below is the new NeoLemmix replay file for those interested. Should we stick with the current layout, or revert back to the original?

Quote from: Proxima on June 03, 2020, 11:15:51 PM

Changes that I am considering or intend to make:

* Should we combine this and Xmas 91/92 into a single pack?
* On Frost 13 "2 minutes before midnight", I should restore the original level width, since the abrupt cut-off doesn't look good. There may be other cases, but this is the only one that stood out on a quick skim through the pack.

* I agree with this combination. Go for it. :thumbsup:
* I think Blizzard 7's width should be restored as well. Some players like to solve the level by bashing into the side wall. Instead they have to try breaking through the ceiling.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: ccexplore on June 04, 2020, 06:49:50 AM

Considering that challenge solutions are often sensitive to the most minute details of physics anyway (just look at the recent comparisons between MASTER-88's SNES results with ours on DOS Lemmings, and those are actually far more similar physics than NeoLemmix), I suppose there's no need to tweak levels for different ceiling behaviors, as long as the level still remains solvable as-is without too much extra work.

In that light I actually would even wonder whether that principle (ie. avoid changing the level for ceiling differences) should apply even to port-unique levels like some in Genesis Lemmings (again, excluding the very few that truly can't be solved otherwise).  How ports chose to include levels of DMA's design (ie. for Amiga, DOS and Atari ST ports that DMA itself developed) were probably somewhat arbitrary, and it's a little strange to say that if a level happened to get ported then we won't bother to preserve ceiling behaviors, and yet if it happened to have never been ported then maybe we should.

For challenge purposes especially, we don't necessarily have to put much emphasis on the intended or most commonly used solutions, since challenge solutions are often less conventional anyway and may well look nothing like the intended or common solutions.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Minim on June 07, 2020, 08:25:22 PM

I know we're still undecided on Holiday, but I'm putting my comments on Original and OhNo out there as reserved. I thought it'd be a good idea for me to check through all of these, while still trying to lean my points towards the lenient side of gameplay changes. I also had a look at the whole thread, and I'll hopefully try and help contribute to one of Proxima's earlier posts (About the Genesis Ceiling category) after I finish checking OhNo. I've already been through it once, but haven't tried all the routes yet.

So, here are my comments for Original, which happen to be concerning the Mayhem levels.

Mayhem 4: Skill selection is always set to bombers when the level starts, but a 100% requirement means it automatically makes them useless. It's annoying having to change to the basher every time I play. So, which shall we go for: Removing the bombers, or lowering the save requirement?

Mayhem 26: This level has one terrain piece in a position which is awkward for the lems about half way through the level. (See attachment below) I placed my bomber as far right as I could after building over the water, but the lems turn when touching that left branch. Adjusting my bomber position one pixel to the left seems to be fine. I propose this little branch either be moved accordingly, or delete it. I realise Fun 21 would be left unchanged but shouldn't be too bad.

23, 28, 29, and 30 are now more interesting under NeoLemmix in different ways. 29 is just about still possible building left of the starting platform, but the exact method without diggers cannot be copied on DOS thanks to left-builder mechanics.


And now the OhNo levels. (Edit: Solved all of them now.) The ones I like to see modified are:

Tame 11: Restore the full width. Looks pretty bad on a 4x zoom with 1366x768 res.
Crazy 7: The screen start should be moved to the left a little bit.
Crazy 11: The screen should be all the way to the right edge where the solvable puzzle is visible.
Wicked 3: The width should be expanded on the left to reveal the full length of the chains at the top.
Havoc 20: The left set of lemmings are exposed, so the screen start should be moved to the left entrance.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Proxima on June 07, 2020, 08:29:49 PM

Quote from: Minim on June 07, 2020, 08:25:22 PM

Hey, Proxima. Are you still thinking of updating the pack?

Seriously? I started less than a week ago and you're on my case because I haven't finished yet. I have a life outside Lemmings. It will take as long as it takes.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Minim on June 08, 2020, 07:37:02 AM

Quote from: Proxima on June 07, 2020, 08:29:49 PM

Quote from: Minim on June 07, 2020, 08:25:22 PM

Hey, Proxima. Are you still thinking of updating the pack?

Seriously? I started less than a week ago and you're on my case because I haven't finished yet. I have a life outside Lemmings. It will take as long as it takes.

Just saw this reply today. Sorry. I didn't mean to word that like it was a pressure post. I tried to introduce it as best as I could, but wasn't aware that first sentence came out short-temepered. I've changed this now.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: ccexplore on June 08, 2020, 09:04:42 AM

Quote from: Minim on June 07, 2020, 08:25:22 PM

So, here are my comments for Original, which happen to be concerning the Mayhem levels.

Removing bombers from Mayhem 4 seems reasonable.  I'm less convinced about Mayhem 26, challenge solutions are expected to involve moves every now and then that are pixel- and/or timing-precise.  The change could make sense for something like Redux, but seems unnecessary to me for a version of level specifically for challenge purposes.

Title: < splitt >
Post by: Minim on June 18, 2020, 06:34:41 AM

I can gladly announce that all official levels have been confirmed possible. The "outdated" PSP levels in the attached file is primarily because of the name change to one of the levels. As for the case of "don't have weird overlaps of steel and non-steel", that hasn't been checked properly yet.

* Sunsoft 16 "Here is Mr. Lemming's House" is one example off the top of my head. The steel bits look like circles. The "New Skills" Challenge will be impossible if the steel blocks overwrite the terrain.
* Mayhem 2 "The Boiler Room" is another annoying example. It has steel pixels guarding the exit pillar and inside the blue wall.

Edit: This has been an enjoyable observation game. :P I've investigated the rest of the Original levels. Here's what I found for the following:

* Fun 24/Mayhem 3 is an unusual one. It has a steel "Tongue" lurking beneath the floating platform near the bottom. However, because there is steel already on top, and that all players will not use this part of the level at all, maybe we should leave this as is?
* Fun 27/Taxing 22: The steel beneath the starting platform is overwritten by slime.
* Fun 29/Mayhem 9 & Mayhem 28: Steel overlapped diagonally by the pyramid and past the exit platform respectively, but because it's so visually obvious, we should leave these ones.
* Mayhem 8: Steel bits lurking right above and to the right of the exit platform, but it's a clear path to the exit so.
* Tricky 9/Mayhem 6: Steel overlapped on the left edge.
* Mayhem 12 & Taxing 21: Left sides particularly.
* Mayhem 15/Tricky 10: A few pixels from the left steel block are overlapped, but lemmings can't access this thanks to the fire's trigger area.
* Taxing 16 & 24: Some of the steel on the ramp is overwritten. Also for 24: The water beneath the chains is off-centre by a pixel to the left.
* Tricky 28: Right side "platform".
* Fun 21/Mayhem 26
* Mayhem 18
* Tricky 4/Taxing 7
* Taxing 2

Completely irrelevant to this, but on Taxing 4 the trigger area for the right spikes trap doesn't overlap the wall unlike the one on the left, allowing climbers to climb all the way up. However, there are no climbers in this level anyway so not sure.

Title: Re: < splitt >
Post by: ccexplore on June 18, 2020, 10:24:53 AM

@Minim:  can you remind me where you are downloading the NeoLemmix conversion you looked at, so I can check things out for myself?  Also, do you think your post above (and then my reply here) might be better suited moved to Proxima's "NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4900.0)" topic?

Thanks for the due diligence. :thumbsup: Regarding for the examples you mentioned so far, I've checked the original levels in Lemmix level editor, and would eventually like to see the same NeoLemmix levels you were looking at to compare.  With that in mind, comments so far (w/o seeing the actual NeoLemmix levels):

edit:  in process of updating replies here, now that I've actually had a chance to look at the NeoLemmix levels in question.  Updated sections will be marked [updated].  Sections not yet updated should be disregarded for now, as they may not actually reflect the reality of the NeoLemmix levels in question.  Sorry for the confusion.

Quote from: Minim on June 18, 2020, 06:34:41 AM

Sunsoft 16

[updated]Huh, that's an interesting arrangement, didn't notice the very irregular treatment they've done with the steel.  It's really hard to tell visually whether there's actually a gap in the steel and whether it can be breached with sufficient fencer uses.

Personally I'm leaning towards just having regular, fully square steel blocks there matching the steel areas in the original level (ie. resulting in no breachable gaps).  Admittedly that will kill off the level for new-skills challenge (not involving extreme utilization of nuking).  But I'm not really opposed to the other way either.  I'm now more convinced to change it to regular, fully square steel blocks and not allow the possibility of breaching through that small gap.  It's not possible in the original (since the steel areas fully cover that part of the level), but with the given skills, the gap in NeoLemmix definitely looks exploitable, and at the same time I don't get a strong sense that there was ever any intent for breaching through that area to be a viable solution.

Quote from: Minim on June 18, 2020, 06:34:41 AM

Mayhem 2 "The Boiler Room" is another annoying example. It has steel pixels guarding the exit pillar and inside the blue wall.

[updated] Interesting find!  So apparently, it looks like the level designer used the steel plate graphics to fill up the natural tiny dents in the pillar and the wall in question, so that it's perfectly vertical without dents.  Technically bits of steel plates are exposed through the dents being filled, but the intent is clear, they were never meant to be real steel (and had no steel areas in the original level, obviously).  The rest of steel that's obscured by the pillar/wall graphics remain non-steel as intended.

This needs to be fixed.  Thankfully I believe it's easy enough to do so by replacing the use of steel plates with, say, the gray circle terrain graphic, to perform the same job of filling up those tiny dents.

Quote from: Minim on June 18, 2020, 06:34:41 AM

Fun 24/Mayhem 3 is an unusual one. It has a steel "Tongue" lurking beneath the floating platform near the bottom.

[updated]  Good eye! :thumbsup: It was really hard to spot even in CPM thanks to its poor choice of colors for terrain vs steel. :XD: There is no tongue of any kind in the original because the steel areas actually don't align perfectly with terrain (as is typical, due to the multiples-of-4 technical requirement).  In the original level the entire bottommost row of pixels of the floating pool are terrain (ie. not covered by the steel areas), even though their pixels do all come from the steel plates.

While I agree the "tongue" is really tiny and at a location that's probably not very exploitable, it's really weird to be there and should be fixed.  Given how small it is, I don't believe it'll be hard to get rid of the tongue.

It's also ironically a prime counterexample to the current system's supposed virtue (not that I'm opposed to it, but counterexamples like this needs to be highlighted nonetheless, to illustrate it's not always that simple).  The system presumes that what-you-see-is-what-you-get and therefore more honest.  But I'd wager that no human eyes would've spotted that tiny tongue of apparently exposed steel there without help from CPM.  So for most people what they think they see is not quite actually what they are getting.

Quote from: Minim on June 18, 2020, 06:34:41 AM

Fun 27/Taxing 22: The steel beneath the starting platform is overwritten by slime.

[updated]Thanks to the acid, I'm reasonably sure there is no meaningful exploit of the steel being no longer extending all the way to the bottom.  That said, as a side effect that does open the possibility of exposing the right edge of the acid object via terrain removal, though that's not something you'd naturally do for any typical challenge solutions.

So I can go either way, and laziness suggests leaving it as-is.

Quote from: Minim on June 18, 2020, 06:34:41 AM

Fun 29/Mayhem 9 & Mayhem 28: Steel overlapped diagonally by the pyramid and past the exit platform respectively, but because it's so visually obvious, we should leave these ones.

[updated]Agree, let's leave those as-is, especially for the pyramid in Fun 29/Mayhem 9.

Quote from: Minim on June 18, 2020, 06:34:41 AM

Mayhem 8: Steel bits lurking right above and to the right of the exit platform, but it's a clear path to the exit so.

[updated]Interesting.  Obviously no functional steel areas there in the original level.  The steel are barely visible, and clearly the level designer was merely exploiting the few exposed red pixels of the left/bottom edges of the steel plates, in order to simulate the effect of a red glow of the exit's flames against the gray rocks.

I'd almost go as far as examining whether to try replacing all the steel plates there with other terrain (plus eraser pieces) to end up with the exact same pixels color-wise to get the same visual effect, but without using any steel plates, so that there is no odd-looking functional steel there at all.  That said, the amount of exposed and therefore functional steel is so small, it's unlikely to be exploitable for anything, so probably fine to leave them all in?

Quote from: Minim on June 18, 2020, 06:34:41 AM

Tricky 9/Mayhem 6: Steel overlapped on the left edge.

[updated]That's quite isolated and out of the way.  Seems fine to leave it as-is (so the rocks remove the functional steel where it overlaps), it seems preferable visually, compared to making the entire steel plate be drawn on top of the rocks.

Quote from: Minim on June 18, 2020, 06:34:41 AM

Mayhem 12 & Taxing 21: Left sides particularly.

[updated]I can go either way with Mayhem 12, even visually, since most of the steel in the level (except for the area you noted) are actually drawn fully on top of rocks.  It's another case where the overlapping terrain removing some of the steel doesn't seem very exploitable so leaving as-is seems fine, though it's not so clear in this case whether even visually it matters.

As for Taxing 21, it's really hard to imagine that tiny bit of overlap is intended even visually, it really feels like the level designer forgot to set no-overwrite to the non-steel to keep it behind the steel plate.  I'm inclined to fix it so it doesn't take out any of the steel, just like there's no irregularities in the original level with steel areas.

Quote from: Minim on June 18, 2020, 06:34:41 AM

Mayhem 15/Tricky 10: A few pixels from the left steel block are overlapped, but lemmings can't access this thanks to the fire's trigger area

[updated  Interesting, so apparently the steel plate on the left pillar is misaligned one pixel to the left.  Normally for any other purposes I would move the steel block one over, but for challenge purposes I'm tempted to leave the misalignment as-is so it matches how the level really was in the original.

In the original, the steel area nevertheless still extends past the full width of the pillar.  To preserve that in NeoLemmix while also preserving the misalignment of the steel plate, I'm considering adding a second steel plate there (behind the one that's already there, but in front of the pillar's terrain)

The little bit of terrain that actually ate away a tiny part of the steel plate, that seems like a mistake to me given an almost identical setup is done for the stuff between the middle and right pillars, but in that setup the terrain remains fully behind the steel and does not affect it.  I'd want to fix it.

Quote from: Minim on June 18, 2020, 06:34:41 AM

Taxing 16 & 24: Some of the steel on the ramp is overwritten. Also for 24: The water beneath the chains is off-centre by a pixel to the left.

Tricky 28: Right side "platform"

Sounds like yet more cases of NeoLemmix not respecting no-overwrite with its handling of steel plates overlapping with other terrain.  In the original all the steel plates in question are fully visible and not obscured by any other terrain as far as I can tell.

Quote from: Minim on June 18, 2020, 06:34:41 AM

Fun 21/Mayhem 26

Seems ok and not very exploitable to let the terrain remove some of the functional steel.  I also see some steel-plates-used-as-eraser-pieces which shouldn't be treated as functional steel.

Finally, interestingly in the original level, there is a bare steel area (ie. not overlapping with any actual steel plates) spanning from left of the bridge all the way past the exit).  I believe it's there to (try to) prevent the player from bombing out the terrain resulting in visually exposing the edges of the water object there.  (Although given the original game's poor steel handling, I'm pretty sure you can still set things up to bomb away enough terrain to expose the water object's edges, despite the added steel areas.)  There's no good way to put visual steel plates there to achieve that function in NeoLemmix without adversely affecting the visuals, so I think I'd rather leave it as-is with no steel there in NeoLemmix, even if it means you can, indeed, bomb out terrain and expose the edges of the water object. :-\

Quote from: Minim on June 18, 2020, 06:34:41 AM

Mayhem 18

Taxing 2

Again, a quick glance looks ok to leave things as-is and let terrain remove some of the functional steel.

Quote from: Minim on June 18, 2020, 06:34:41 AM

Tricky 4/Taxing 7

The shape formed by the steel plates is a key visual element, so definitely should leave as-is, once all the mosses are removed so the "ship" isn't so full of cracks. :P

Quote from: Minim on June 18, 2020, 06:34:41 AM

on Taxing 4 the trigger area for the right spikes trap doesn't overlap the wall unlike the one on the left, allowing climbers to climb all the way up. However, there are no climbers in this level anyway so not sure.

Actually, at least looking at the DOS version, the left trap's trigger is still 1 pixel away from the wall, so I think both walls are climbable (except for lack of climbers given to the level).  That said, it does feel like this is begging for a slight adjustment in the traps' positions so their trigger areas do touch the walls.

Looking at the version you created a while back for the "new skills" challenge, it looks like you did fix the positions of the spike traps?  However, I also noticed you replaced the spike traps with the smaller versions.  While that would match the abnormally small trigger areas in DOS version, it should be noted that on SNES (and therefore probably Amiga, though I haven't tested yet), the regular "big" spike traps do have larger trigger areas that are more in line visually with the spikes.  It seems NeoLemmix had also fixed the large spike traps so their trigger areas basically match Amiga versions.  So I'd say we shouldn't replace the spike traps with the "small" versions.  The abnormally small trigger area in DOS is arguably a bug, it's certainly misleading relative to the visuals of the spikes.

Title: Re: < splitt >
Post by: Minim on June 18, 2020, 05:13:41 PM

Quote from: ccexplore on June 18, 2020, 10:24:53 AM

@Minim:  can you remind me where you are downloading the NeoLemmix conversion you looked at, so I can check things out for myself?  Also, do you think your post above (and then my reply here) might be better suited moved to Proxima's "NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4900.0)" topic?

It's the OP from this thread (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4900.0).

Quote from: ccexplore on June 18, 2020, 10:24:53 AM

As for Taxing 21, I can't find what steel you are referring to?  The visible ones forming the walls of the "pit" where the exit lies, I don't see any overlaps with terrain?

It is one of the long pieces on the exit platform overlapping the middle steel block on the left side. Given that access is mostly blocked by the fire's trigger area, leaving as is isn't a bad idea.

Quote from: ccexplore on June 18, 2020, 10:24:53 AM

Looking at the version you created a while back for the "new skills" challenge, it looks like you did fix the positions of the spike traps?  However, I also noticed you replaced the spike traps with the smaller versions.  While that would match the abnormally small trigger areas in DOS version, it should be noted that on SNES (and therefore probably Amiga, though I haven't tested yet), the regular "big" spike traps do have larger trigger areas that are more in line visually with the spikes.  It seems NeoLemmix had also fixed the large spike traps so their trigger areas basically match Amiga versions.  So I'd say we shouldn't replace the spike traps with the "small" versions.  The abnormally small trigger area in DOS is arguably a bug, it's certainly misleading relative to the visuals of the spikes.

I don't remember myself modifying the spike traps. ??? This might be a case of two users downloading different versions of these levels.

Title: Re: < splitt >
Post by: ccexplore on June 18, 2020, 11:28:15 PM

Quote from: Minim on June 18, 2020, 05:13:41 PM

Quote from: ccexplore on June 18, 2020, 10:24:53 AM

As for Taxing 21, I can't find what steel you are referring to?  The visible ones forming the walls of the "pit" where the exit lies, I don't see any overlaps with terrain?

It is one of the long pieces on the exit platform overlapping the middle steel block on the left side. Given that access is mostly blocked by the fire's trigger area, leaving as is isn't a bad idea.

I see.  So another case where NeoLemmix doesn't seem to honor no-overwrite when deaiing with steel overlapping with non-steel.  As a matter of principle this should be fixed or worked around.  The steel plate is fully visible and should therefore be functionally steel throughout its entire square area.

Quote from: ccexplore on June 18, 2020, 10:24:53 AM

I don't remember myself modifying the spike traps. ??? This might be a case of two users downloading different versions of these levels.

You're right, that was an unwarranted assumption.  Anyway, it was the level taken from attachments in the first post of the challenge thread (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4516.0).  I believe you only updated the skillset of each level.  I guess the level itself originally came from the formerly-official set of levels that namida used to maintain but no longer?  Wonder who made the edits then.

Title: Re: < splitt >
Post by: ccexplore on June 19, 2020, 12:17:54 AM

Ok, I've had a chance to start looking at the NeoLemmix versions of levels, and finally got a clearer understanding of what's happening.  To summarize, so far where I've looked, NeoLemmix is handling things all as expected.  It's just that sometimes the steel that looks like is completely hidden, actually had tiny bits of exposed pixels, and vice versa.

I'm going to start editing my earlier reply post to account for what the actual differences are as seen in NeoLemmix.  I'll make it clear when I've finished the edits there.  Sorry for the confusion and the apparently unwarranted digs at NeoLemmix regarding steel handling. :XD:

Aside:  can user customize the colors used for clear physics mode?  At least in the editor?  The light gray vs dark gray for terrain vs steel is utterly horrible contrast for spotting the kinds of things Minim is pointing out, so much for "clear".  :XD:  The old Lemmix editor uses blue for steel which wouldn't have this problem.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Proxima on January 20, 2021, 11:41:46 AM

I have updated the PSP levels again. (Download link is in the post below this.)

* All trapdoors and exits have been set to no-overwrite, except for the trapdoor in "No justice for the hero".
* The levels now use the new feature that allows tracks to be selected randomly. Each style has three associated tracks, and each level will select randomly from the tracks for its style. (I understand this is how the actual PSP version works, although the PSP music folder also contains three tracks called "oldtune" 1, 2 and 3. Under this system, these tracks will never play. Does anyone happen to know which levels they are meant to play on?)

This download doesn't actually include the music -- I'm just posting the levels themselves as and when each group is done in case anyone notices any changes that need to be made. Once I am ready to put the whole pack together, it will include all the relevant music.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Proxima on January 20, 2021, 12:13:19 PM

I've gone through everything in the old "Extra Levels" pack -- there weren't too many changes needed here. These won't be called "Extra Levels" any more; now that NL supports more complex pack structures, these will be groups that are each part of the main "Original Lemmings" pack, and some of them will contain subgroups.

Changelog:

Genesis

* "Two ponds" has the rightmost trapdoor doubled, not the middle one as on the old version.
* Replaced trapdoors and exits in the special graphics levels with the level-specific versions.
* Instances of crystal trap 3 (the "POOR WEE CREATURES" trap) have been raised one pixel for visibility. (The actual Genesis version has these traps even higher, but then they would be inert on NL. I placed them on the highest pixel where they will be triggered, as in Redux.)

Present / Sunsoft

* No changes needed, other than the crystal trap just mentioned.

Sega (SMS)

* Renamed the folder to "SMS" to avoid confusion, since the Genesis is also a Sega console.

2P

* Levels have been sorted into subgroups for Lemmings, ONML and Genesis, each with the correct music.
* Lemmings 2P levels arranged into the correct order.
* Genesis 2 and 3 were both called "A task for blockers and bomber". While that is their authentic title, I don't like having two levels in the same rank with the same title, so I renamed Level 3 to "Graffiti" (since it is the equivalent of the Amiga 2P level with that title).

Other Levels

* "Going Their Separate Ways" replaced with an authentic rip from Macintosh Lemmings, the same as in yesterday's update to Lemmings Redux.
* Trimmed a lot of unused space from "The Apple Computer Level".

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Proxima on February 04, 2021, 02:33:47 AM

Another couple of issues have come up regarding the PSP levels, and again, I'm hoping that someone with access to the PSP version can test these for me.

* On Level 30 "The stairs are not floored", where the pillar stands in front of the steel (as in WillLem's screenshot here (https://i.imgur.com/jzczDOv.png)), is it possible to bomb a hole to get onto the pillar and continue digging down?

* On Level 32 "Gather round and break away", is it possible to build and bash directly from the starting platform to the exit, or does the flamethrower prevent this?

* On Level 33 "Cagey business", how does the little platform in front of the shredder look on the original level?

* On Level 36 "Notch what you think it is", if a bomber is set to explode just after starting to fall, does this make the fall safe?

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: ericderkovits on February 04, 2021, 06:12:47 AM

Hi Proxima, Yes I tested these 4 levels for you and posted the results on Youtube. I think I remember testing PSP levels for you before in the past.

Results:

Level 30 (The Stairs are not floored)
here I posted 2 videos, placing a blocker at 2 different spots before bombing him then with another lemming tried to dig in those spots. but it's not possible to dig at either. Pay attention to the
chinking sound when I try to use a digger. So NOT possible

video 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbalgqTnQp4
video 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8AJ_IZF5h8

Level 32 (Gather round and break away)

ok it looks like it's possible to build over 1st gap to spot below flamethrower and then bash the barrier without lemmings dying to the flamethrower. Again here is the video. Thus this level is
backroutable in the PSP version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL_4h4DQVLE

and here is the entire backroute of level 32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x21tCVUm3Nc

Level 33 (Cagey Business)
ok here Is me solving the level, so you can see the shredder that I built over to save the other lemmings. (Also it appears in the PSP version, there is no little Platform), I just built over it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH23xqDNTYk

Level 36 (Notch what you think it is)

Ok it seems the fall is safe for other lemmings when the bomber explodes just after falling. again look at the video. This took a few attempts due to timed bombers in the PSP version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iCaUP404_g

Entire solution video using the bomber to make fall safe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY8sZDuPfes

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Proxima on February 04, 2021, 02:34:36 PM

Thank you, that's really helpful :thumbsup: (And yes, you did help out last time I had a query of this type :P )

* * *

In view of the above, I've decided to amend Levels 30 and 33. On Level 30, I have moved the pillar down so it's entirely below the steel and you can't break through at that point. On Level 33, I have removed the small platform (a rather ugly hack and a strong signpost towards the solution). Since it requires 2 builders instead of 1 to build over the shredder in NL, I have simply added an extra builder. (There is already precedent for tweaking the skillset slightly if a level as it stands is impossible in NL; "Out, away from the tune" does this.)

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Proxima on March 09, 2021, 01:35:08 AM

With a lot of help from WillLem, the original Lemmings pack is finally done!

Changes from namida's version:

* Many levels have been re-cropped so that more of the original decorative terrain remains. In particular, the full decorative terrain is once again present on "Call in the bomb squad" and "Have a nice day".
* Tricky 4 / Taxing 7 and Mayhem 1 have had moss on steel re-added, but only in the middle of the large steel walls; the edges, and especially the top edges, have been kept clear so the moss doesn't affect gameplay.
* Fun 6 is once again "A task for blockers and bombers", with its original skillset.
* All levels use the Amiga blue background (now available in the "special" style, so you don't need to install any custom styles).
* Special graphics levels use their unique trapdoors and exits (also in the "special" style).

ONML is nearly finished and will be posted soon.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Proxima on March 10, 2021, 09:26:30 PM

Oh No! More Lemmings is finished!

Changes from namida's version:

* A few levels have been re-cropped -- there were not nearly as many here as in original Lemmings where I was unhappy with namida's choices.
* WillLem has resized the logo so that it doesn't look stretched-out. (He has also done this for the original Lemmings logo, which is included in the zip in the above post.)
* Havoc 20 "Look Before You Leap" has the screen start moved to the left trapdoor.
* As with original Lemmings, all levels use the Amiga blue background.
* Havoc 12 "It's all a matter of timing" is unchanged -- it has only three trapdoors, so they release in ABCABC order. However, a version of the level with the middle trapdoor duplicated, to simulate the original game's ABCB order, will be included in Extra Levels. (Now that NL speedrunning has started to take off, I should note that this decision means the ABCABC version is the one that is included in the ONML speedrun.)
* The music tracks play in the Amiga order, not the order that NL numbers them (which is based on the DOS version).

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Crane on April 16, 2021, 06:23:22 AM

Though a bit of a gimmick, the screen not being centred on the left trapdoor in "Look before you leap" is part of the level's design, given the title.  Granted, you should have learnt by now to not just dive straight in since a level in Crazy did something similar.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Crane on April 17, 2021, 09:46:44 PM

Had a look around the packs - look good so far, and many of them are so much easier in NeoLemmix!

Because of the way you've shrunk "PoP YoR ToP!!!", the left water bubble pit looks disjointed because one of the water objects was reduced in width.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Proxima on April 17, 2021, 10:43:48 PM

Good point. Here's a fixed version of the level.

Sorry there hasn't been much progress on this pack for a while -- life has been really stressful lately and I am also involved in a DROD project that's taking up a lot of my free time.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Crane on April 17, 2021, 11:30:44 PM

Still not perfect as it now overhangs the sloped wall by the exit. Best solution is to probably move the water back a bit and put some blue balls under the slope to fill up the void that will appear.  i gather the Redux version isn't suitable for speedrunning.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Crane on April 18, 2021, 01:06:58 AM

I also just realised that, on the Redux version, some of the trapdoors spawn lemmings walking left, and the order of the rightmost two have been swapped - something to watch out for.

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: Proxima on April 18, 2021, 01:19:17 AM

That's correct, for Redux we decided that on some levels (including this one) it was appropriate to flip the trapdoors, whereas for the official conversions all trapdoors will remain right-facing.

I don't believe the order has been changed. I looked at my local copies of both levels, and they both have the order 4-2-3-1 (left to right). Which version has the wrong order on your copy?

Title: Re: NeoLemmix versions of original levels for challenges
Post by: WillLem on April 18, 2021, 11:37:58 AM

Quote from: Crane on April 17, 2021, 11:30:44 PM

Still not perfect as it now overhangs the sloped wall by the exit. Best solution is to probably move the water back a bit and put some blue balls under the slope to fill up the void that will appear.

Done. If Proxima approves, this can be added to the ONML pack.