"Rounds and Swingabouts" has 1 climber, 2 bombers, 15 builders, 10 bashers and 4 miners, and the save requirement is 24/30. Looks like another case where the hard level was accidentally pasted into the slot intended for its easy repeat :P
My solution to "The Final Countdown":
Same as yours with slight rearrangement, but I had the digger dig on the single pixel of normal terrain next to the steel so he continued all the way down before having him bash along the bottom and then be the climber/worker on that side. I guess that's on me for not realising I could dig down the terrain between the steel blocks and survive from the bottom. If you wanted, though, you could enlarge the steel blocks slightly so there isn't that single pixel.
I know there are some levels later on that might need replacing or reordering. "Tribute to Benny Hill" wasn't too well-received, for example, and it seems not many people like "Oh No! Not Again!".
One thing that I'll mention about the Armageddon rating... I always felt that "Duality" works best as a penultimate level rather than the final level. For the final level, I would like to suggest a previously secret level, "From the Brink", if only because you can then make the joke at the very end that you saved the lemmings From the Brink of Armageddon.
It would become the only level with a nuke solution though.
Hah, yes, it is an annoying tune. Maybe someone needs to make a mod version of this variant instead:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVDmjnCQ1g4&t=5m07s
Yes, those are Tesla Coils!
I did patch Nemesis at some point, but I don't know where my files are.
Personally, I would like to keep the 30 levels per rating, being a traditionalist and this pack being traditional in a way, but with some trimming out of bad levels or fixing those with backroutes etc.
Just to note also... some levels in the Unsorted category are duplicates of other levels, just with a different name.
And as for the "Bet you can't save just one" level... the EXE file has a gold talisman for that one that challenges you to save three!
Regarding talismans, there was one I proposed with möbius once after the last version was released, and it partly justifies the placement of Duality at the end of Armageddon... complete with only 3 bashers.
ADDENDUM: The backroute in The Underground Secret, if it doesn't use the Climbers or the Floater, is the intended solution!
A fix of "A Bid Farewell" that repositions the trapdoor and exit to their original positions (I had moved them for the Christmas version of this level).
I also forgot to mention that there's an extra bit of terrain on the steel plates below the one-way wall, so Lemmings can walk up over it. This helps patch a backroute. I don't know the full intended solution, but I do recall reading part of an interview with the level author once over a decade ago, and he mentions...
...the difficulty of using a single Builder to bridge three separate points.
The time limit reduction down to 3:30 may be unnecessary. I can't remember what backroute it's meant to block now, but if it's deemed not to be a concern, it can be upped to 4:00 again. I'll let Proxima decide when he comes to the level.
ADDENDUM: If anyone wants to try it or think it might work better as a final level for a rank, here's the Christmas version of the level as well!
All the music for RotL is tracker formats (MOD, IT, etc), so someone familiar with OpenMPT (or a similar app) should be able to handle this part of things. It's pretty much a matter of finding the appropriate point to jump to, and adding a "Pattern break" and "Position jump" command. I might make a tutorial at some point.
I saw this scrolling through the thread, and I don't get the impression this has been resolved. Technically, it's very straightforward.
There are a few issues that complicate things a bit. All of the files have the extension .it for some reason, regardless of whether or not they are actually .it files, though OpenMPT seems to be able to figure out what they actually are somehow. track_02, for example, is actually a .mod. This has to be checked before a pattern break can be used, since this effect depends on the format. Another problem is that, since some of these weren't designed with looping in mind, some don't really have good loop points to work with, though it's still often possible to clean up the restart process a bit so it sounds less abrupt. track_02, for example again, has a long silence after it finishes but before it restarts, and if you trim that silence out it loops reasonably well, though if you're actively listening it for it it's pretty obvious where it's looping (it sounds fine, at least, so it's not like it's an abrupt cut-off or anything).
Since there are 48 tracks, I don't plan on going through each of them and checking the looping, but I can try to make functional loops for anything brought to my attention.
Also, here are instructions if someone wants to try it themselves. These are a bit more informative than namida's, though still not quite at the level of being useful for someone who's never used a tracker before. It does explain the commands, but assumes you know how to input them, for example.
First, some quick terminology: patterns are basically sets of note data; patterns are made of rows; the pattern order determines what patterns will be played when; the position is where the song is in the pattern order. As namida stated, they should only require position jump (Bxx in .it/.xm/.mod, where xx is the position number in hex) and maybe pattern break (Cxx in .it, Dxx in .xm/.mod, where xx is the row number in hex of the next pattern). These effects should be placed on the last row you want to be heard before the jump (any data in the rest of the pattern will be skipped), and target the first row/pattern you want to play. The effects can be used together to target a specific row/position, but if you just need to jump to the start of a different pattern, Bxx can be used without it being necessary to specify C00. If Cxx is used, but Bxx is not specified, the next position will be assumed.
I'll probably eventually be able to get through all of the tracks simply by playing them while working on other things, but it will take a while, since there are 48 of them.
Here's what I've got so far. Probably won't upload anything until it's done.
No work required:
Already loops/restarts non-distractingly: [1, 3, 4, 9, 11, 12]
Work needed
Does not loop cleanly: [5, 6, 7, 8, 10]
Unchecked: [13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48]
Done
Done: [2]
Correct extension list (items on the unchecked list from above are omitted here)
.mod: [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12]
10: Doesn't loop cleanly but ending is very similar to the introduction - should make for easy looping.
note: I do fully plan to look over this entire thread and gather the comments and replays found here, just haven't gotten around to it yet.
Here are a few levels to test. The first level is solvable albeit a slightly different way than intended [as seen from Yawg's youtube channel]. I thought this was still decently difficult I use a relatively advanced trick in my solution.
Second one I solved as Yawg did.
Thanks so much for testing/helping here btw! :thumbsup:
And just so this is clear; I'm not saying all of these levels I post here (or if I post any on discord) will absolutely get added to the pack. Some of them definitely will though.
-Food-- intended! [only minor difference at the top section]
-Beastial-- is a bit different; I'd like to hear your thoughts on the level/solution/difficulty?
-Niche - shucks I wanted to have a talisman on this level of "use 10 or fewer builders" but there's getting to be quite a few solutions (and of somewhat easier variety?); not sure. I attached a variant with only 10 to test. I found this one myself without trying all that hard, though I remembered the general gist of the level Yawg's solution extends the basher and miner both.
-Necromancer--ah yes, major backroute... these types of levels always have that backroute don't they? I'll have to think about this one; may just end up scrapping it.
Two more levels attached for testing.
Also , may I suggest some levels , that could be added to the pack ?
Certainly. Just a few things to keep in mind;
-This pack was and still is focused on old levels; that is; basically anything around 2012 or earlier. Basically one of the points of this was to finish the project that had actually started (but never finished) on this forum before I even joined, and to highlight the levels people were making at that time. There have a been a few exceptions (like the 2013 contests and such).
-If you have a *lot* of suggestions I likely won't include most of them as I already have quite a few of my own (but I'm not certain how many of those will make it in either).
-I may bring a few levels back which had been eliminated from the first Lemmini version of this pack as well, as looking back some of those weren't all that bad.
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does anybody have a copy of a [LVL/Lemmix] level by Ellischant titled "Life as a Worm"?
EDIT:
attached one more I edited just tonight; Paitence Young Grasshopper; an existing level plagued by backroutes which I've modified a bit. Really curious about this one.
also none of these levels so far are the ones I've mentioned on discord which kaywhyn and armani responded to me about; that's a different matter altogether.
timeless masterpiece is same solution as mine. A small variation is also possible.
I agree on Beastial Oblivion. If you look closely you can see the steel in the center is raised and digging there allows you to hold in the crowd easier (only 2 escape).
That's the intended solution. Overall though the solution isn't all that different. I'm unsure about this one; leaning toward abandoning it.
nice solutions to Icy Tombs; I didn't know the right path was possible. I supposed I could enforce the right path (or just make it harder overall) by adding a trap on the left path, or is it fine as is?
Not sure what to think of Niche atm; it has many solutions, none of them are "easy" but many of them aren't totally like the intended. Your solutions seems so simple idk why nobody thought of that until now....
Journey: both of those are interesting imo
Patience grasshopper; gotta say that second solution (while clearly not intended cause in the original the steel area would've extended through the "terrain"] is pretty creative. I'll need to think more about this one and Niche.
I'm probably going to ditch The Necromancer.
I attached a quick fix to More Time To Kill [oh yeah that trap was there in the original but it was nastily hidden behind the exit... knew it was there for a reason...]
Food for the Gods is also intended.
I'll have more levels to test later.
attached my solutions 8-)
Something tells me that A Real Breakthrough is not solvable. I think it's solvable with non-deadly ceiling though. I attached a replay of my failed attempt which could have been successful if the trap at the bottom was located 1 pixel to the right.
It's clear that you have to build and catch the two climbers from the bottom in Can't Find Any Gaps. Not sure what all the leftover skills are for.
Evacuation is a pretty decent level. It reminds me of No justice for the hero from PSP Lemmings.
I attachedd two solutions to Let's split!. First one is a nasty backroute. Second solution uses both top and bottom exits and uses most of the skills. I assume the intended solution splits 50 lemmings to 20, 20, 10 to all 3 exits and somehow uses all 20climbers/20floaters/10miners but I can't figure out how.
I have quite a lot of leftover skill in Locked and Loaded but I think this solution still has some decent tricks in it.
Use your tools wisely is my favorite level from this batch. The turning around of the climber at the basher tunnel is tricky to see.
Use Your Tools: after reading your hint I immediately solved this level! [should've solved it sooner as I was trying things similar to this but gave up....] aaaaand I see where another of ISteve's levels was inspired from!
Lets Split: oh I just realized the intended solution is to mine to turn around in the one way wall (which doesn't work in NL) which is why the Cheapo version has terrain and steel there instead...
Can't Find Any Gaps; I don't know either; I'll have to take a closer look at this one.
Breakthrough; Because Cheapo is so annoying to use I have yet to figure out if the gap between the entrance area and the right side platforms is supposed to be two or three bridges wide >_< >_< . But I can say that the ceiling in Cheapo is in fact safe, so I may make that adjustment (Depending on what the solution actually is.)
The two original levels; Breakthrough; is imo pretty easy you just bomb the 3 pillars then build through. The other; 5,4,3,2,1... is the 4 platforms you must block and squeeze the crowd through one of the traps.
But you have no blockers on this version... I'm really curious what your idea is how it's solvable without moving the traps but without deadly ceiling; if that's what you meant.
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ah, evacuation was a backroute I can fix easily. The left side obstacle blocking the crowd in was originally steel. In cheapo when a climber bashes into steel; he does not turn around. So that needs to be an obstacle that does not allow a climber to turn around.
awww what a backroute to Locked and Loaded... I have no idea how to fix this atm... :XD:
using my own 'eye of the needle' trick as well to add insult to injury. :D
EDIT: and once again right after saying that I figure out a way to fix it. But I have several options....
version 3 has my fix plus cutting down the skills I don't use while my solution is pretty intricate and puzzling I save a climber and only use one blocker
. so version 4 has these remaining skills; in case somebody can find an elegant way to use these.
Also attached these others also by Bryant I made a while back but forgot about. Still a few more of his to remake; almost all of his 20-30 level pack imo is excellent. [One is renamed because *yet again* it had similar title as another level]
But you have no blockers on this version... I'm really curious what your idea is how it's solvable without moving the traps but without deadly ceiling; if that's what you meant.
Ah yes this level could have been much easier with a blocker.
About this level under solid ceiling: It didn't work quite well as I expected; the solution is pretty fiddly and requires long waiting for the perfect timing. I attached both level(I fixed it so my solution could work.) and the replay anyway.
And for new levels:
Deadly Detour: I don't think my solution is exactly intended as I have some leftover skills. But avoiding exit by digging away the trigger area of the exit is clever I would say.
Evacuation: attached 3 solutions. First two solutions are probably backroutes. (You can block the first one by removing some rock terrain and second one by moving the thin terrain at the hatch area upward by 1 or 2 pixels) And finally the third solution feels very closed to intended. I used two worker lemmings and give climber&floater skills to two different lemmings and the solution looks clean.
Locked and Loaded: attached 2 solutions. First one is just a slight variation of my previous backroute. You can block it by adding wall trap to the second pillar as well. And the second solution looks cleaner but it still has some leftover skills.
Manifest: attached 2 solutions. They are basically similar the only difference is the place I contained the crowd.
Great work on Evacuation and Deadly Detour! As for the latter that I would say is a backroute because it doesn't use the one area of the level at all; which Proxima found. And I'd say that's more elegant than digging the exit out. That one was deceptively tricky.
Locked and Loaded:
Gah! your second solution was so close to many things I tried but never succeeded to do earlier. It may be close to intended idk... In the process the solution I came up with imo is beautiful; it's so much more intricate and also fits in the original 7 minute time limit; which is somewhat unusually high for one of his levels. Maybe that's only my biased opinion...
Your first solution :( sadly another needle trap would fix that backroute but also disable my solution... Let me know if you want to see my replay. I'm torn between enforcing your second solution or trying to come up with a better fix.
Manifest. I think I'm gonna leave this open to multiple solutions. It's decently challenging as is imo. I'm guessing as to the original solution; the two lemmings lost were the blocker and a climber that goes off to the left (Cheapo climbers can't turn on steel) but I can't figure out where this un-freeable blocker would be. My solution was similar but placed the blocker on the builder bridge and freed him that way.
I still have to spend more time on Conway's levels. I have maybe two more levels by Bryant I think I want to add.
a couple of notes in response to some comments from the past:
That Freezing Feeling; the time limit must be kept at 3:00 to enforce the intended solution as seen in his video. [you don't need two workers with 4:00]
With Crane's help I've backroute fixed some other levels; "Someone must help us" [I'm changing the title back to its original].
Also "Please Save Us" had an obvious backroute due to NL physics.
I've seen that the special graphics levels have already been redone so my earlier post was moot.
solved newLevels06.zip and testLevels09.zip
A Farewell to Kings: Using builder+digger to make a turn around point for the climbers seems good but my solution still doesn't use any floaters.
A Real Breakthrough: This seems intended now ;)
Another Impasse: I think this level has several possible solution. The main challenge here is letting nobody splat in the digger with well-placed builder bricks.
Another very short level: Attached two different(but similar) solutions. I like the second solution more. I think you can block my first solution by making the bottom platform lower so 4 builders are not enough to reach.
Cavelems, Clever mining, Dual Action: These levels were quite easy and straight forward. Based on the skillset, I might have backrouted Clever mining.
Hole in the Wall: This solution seems extremly cheesy but I don't see any possible way to save at least one lemming in time...
Just old fashioned building: Nice puzzle with builders and miners. The title really pit well with the level.
Pit of Doom: Attached two solutions. I think my first solution is intended. I used every single skill and save exactly 29 lemmings. I attached another solution that has a leftover skill and save 20lemmings.
Running down: This level was also very easy and straightforward.
Short Journey: Using the bomber to destroy the two layers of terrain looks fine. I have a lot of leftover skills though.
They are all proven to be solvable. If these are the intended solutions is different matter though :P
Just a minutes(part3): maybe intended. Mining to the hollow space at the bottom of the platform feels intended.
My LDG attempt: looks simple but it's not that easy. You have to see that the save requirement is very low and you have a floater which means you somehow only have to let 2 lemmings fall down safely and it's done.
Ordinary Story: This level seems open-ended with more than enough skills.
Pedantic Lemmings: This was a challenging and satisfying puzzle. I like it. The blocker position is pretty much locked so you have to find a clever way to contain the crowd without the blocker.
Petit fours: Interesting disjoint union! All other chambers were straightforward but the fact that you have to use compression method at the third chamber was clever and not easy to see.
Pillars of Success: I don't think my solution is intended. I only use small fraction of the level and have some leftover skills.
Take the stair: This level is just "bash and exit" :crylaugh: :crylaugh:
The house of the lost staircase: I think you successfully blocked all the backroutes for this level. ;)
Try climbing that: Nice puzzle with climber and builder! I think this is somewhat intended but I only use one floater out of ten. That's kinda suspicious.
Why do you all look the same?: Not sure if this is intended. But I don't like my solution since I'm not a fan of this 2builders-turnaround trick. Also I didn't use the blocker.
Take the Stairs; ....
wow dumbest oversight on my part ever. That's my fault; the level needed a minor change to accomdate for physics changes]. This level's kind of obvious (For a veteran) anyway, but glad I'm checking it jeesus...
Dangit; Your solution to Pillars of success was similar to mine but once again I overlooked something. I went and checked the Cheapo version (which I already did) but missed that there are some important differences I didn't copy over. I may edit this; not really sure on including this one.
no floater and getting down in the second section looks impossible
All others were intended or acceptable!
Working on level order now.
I'm afraid I've not kept a record of all the changes; I decided not to from the beginning cause there's just too many. I kind of wish I did but eh... I will summarize them as best as I can.
excellent!
The only serious back route is Illusive Paths; I'll have to take a closer look at that one....
Everyone but the bomber; I solved it a simpler way. That basher/blocker trick you used was pretty crazy! :P
ok here's one more random level I could never solve; anyone know a solution?
Yup, replay attached. This was a pretty tough one, and interestingly took me only a good 5 minutes to think about, but ultimately
The miner is simply used as a delay, hence the level title. I thought he would hit the steel so that the splatform would be done for him on time, but apparently he doesn't, and it finished just in the nick of time and is low enough to not make him splat.
Also, I did get your Discord DM regarding testing, but as I didn't respond to it from a while back and it sounds like testing is almost done, I won't be needed for that anymore? If you could still use some more pre-testers, I'll likely have a better answer for you in a day or so.