Lemmings Forums

NeoLemmix => NeoLemmix Levels => Topic started by: grams88 on March 30, 2019, 11:52:17 PM

Title: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on March 30, 2019, 11:52:17 PM
Hi everyone

Your tutorials have been very helpful Flopsy. :thumbsup:

(Ski Sloping lemmings) which probably has not much to do with skiing. This is a pack that uses the original skills and the original and Oh no tilesets, the nine tilesets. :thumbsup: I think I made some decent puzzle type levels. The first eight or nine levels are tutorials but not like your normal tutorial levels, these ones are a bit harder than your standard tutorial levels. The first level is just to do with using the release rate tool, I think it is set to 50 but I could be wrong.

I'm hoping to maybe do some backroute changes but I might do that at a later date, see how it goes as it is at the moment. The first rank which is the (Blue slope) that's your hard tutorial levels and few more straight forward type of levels. The next rank up is the (Red slope)which are slightly harder still these levels might have multiple solutions. The rank after this one the the (Black Slope) these levels get harder as I've hopefully implemented some puzzles within some of the levels. The last rank is the hardest (Orange Slope) where you can't make many mistakes at all as you can lose the level.

I'm hoping that the 80 levels are okay and hopefully some levels might trip up even the masters of the lemmings. There are a few levels that might not go down well but lets hope that there aren't too many of those type of levels. 

I hope I have added the right file.

I'm hoping this also encourages others to make a big level pack. It was actually quite fun making the levels but sometimes you do run dry for ideas and sometimes it can be a bit more difficult to come up with a level.

Thanks Namida and IchoTolot, :) Thanks for helping me out with the last post. hopefully I've added the right one this time.


Should work now the download. :)
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: IchoTolot on March 31, 2019, 09:23:02 AM
Hi! Downloaded it and it seems to work. :)

But I found 1 bug currently:

For me the "Black Slope" rank is the first rank in the level selector. I also found the reason:

Your "levels.nxmi" file is named "Ski Sloping levels.nxmi". This way the file gets ignored and the levels are just displayed by folder order in the level select screen.

I fixed it for myself now and the "Blue Slope" rank is now the first rank as intended. Did you manually edit the file's name? ??? If yes, don't simply rename those generated files! ;)

Anyway rename the "Ski Sloping levels.nxmi" file to "levels.nxmi" and reattach the pack with the fixed name. Then everything will function correctly. :)

I will try to take a look at the pack over the next week. :)
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: Proxima on March 31, 2019, 12:28:44 PM
Replays for the Blue Slope rank attached. Comments:

Comments (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on March 31, 2019, 06:40:45 PM
Thanks guys trying the pack out, look forward to checking those replays you guys have.
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: IchoTolot on March 31, 2019, 06:48:37 PM
Thanks guys trying the pack out, look forward to checking those replays you guys have.

The issue is still not fixed yet.

The "levels.nxmi" file is still named "Ski Sloping levels.nxmi" in your attachment.

Rename and reattach it so unsuspecting users still get the right order of difficulty ranks, it's just 1 file that needs a quick renaming.

Otherwise most people will start with Black Slope.


I attached the fixed pack. It's quick so I simply did it. ;P
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on April 01, 2019, 10:55:00 PM
At least we got in working in the end. :)

Thanks for playing and commenting on the levels proxima. I'm looking forward to watching the replays, is there a shortcut key for playing replays? I forgot which key it was. I'll will post a more detailed reply once a few try the blue slope levels out. The (Very Dangerous Trail) level will be an interesting one to watch as I feel that might be a bit hard for the blue slope rank but I'll keep there at the moment.

Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: IchoTolot on April 02, 2019, 07:49:46 AM
Quote
is there a shortcut key for playing replays? I forgot which key it was.

Standard hotkey for loading replays in a level is "L".

All hotkeys can be looked at by going into the configuration menu by pressing "F3" in the main menu.

Also the answer to most things in that regard is: The Manual (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4081.0)

Quote
At least we got in working in the end. :)

Your attachement in the main post still contains the wrong file name for "levels.nxmi". ;)

Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on April 03, 2019, 01:47:07 PM
Looking forward to checking out the replays. My thinking in relation to making the tutorial levels was to make them a bit harder than your traditional tutorial levels. Hoping it is not off putting for newer players, I was hoping a lot of us may have some mayhem or havoc experience. :devil:


Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: Nepster on April 03, 2019, 08:04:08 PM
Attached are lots of replays.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on April 03, 2019, 08:46:41 PM
Thanks Nepster

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Just to double check something, can you actually change the height when making levels in Neolemmix? I kept mine to the default height for all levels.
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on April 03, 2019, 10:40:38 PM
Hi guys



Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on April 03, 2019, 11:21:37 PM
Actually you guys are helping me find some backroutes, Nepster might of found a few, thank you. I might as well focus on finding backroutes at this time being. If I do make a backroute changes, I will let you know what levels it is and post the updated pack at the top of this thread. I might make a few changes to the later levels rather than the earlier ones.



Actually I might as well do an update just now,

Thanks to Nepster for finding them.

Only across less builders, Nepster solution okay

Maze blocks less builders, Nepster solution okay

Welcome to venus placed traps so can't go a certain way.

Welcome to the red world, changed some blocks to make the height higher.

I will add the updated one at the top of this post, Many thanks.
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: Nepster on April 04, 2019, 03:56:15 PM
Thanks for the reply.

Quote
A journey level was completed nicely, you let one die.
Which NeoLemmix version do you use? When I load my replay, it saves all lemmings.
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on April 05, 2019, 11:05:59 AM
You are right, you saved them all on that one Nepster, I just noticed what you used the last builder for. :)
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: IchoTolot on April 06, 2019, 03:37:36 PM
I've had some time for the first rank and the last level today. I've attached the replays. :)

For the written comments here I will focus on what could be improved.

In general:

My favorite level so far was 1 17! :thumbsup:

As Nepster also stated: For my taste there were too many huge levels with 15+ builders. I would try turning down the builder count drastically and aim for a balance between small, medium and large levels in future content.
In quite a lot of levels I just had to build very long bridges where I just assigned a builder, pressed the skip 10secs button, assigned the next builder, pressed the skip 10secs button, assigned the next builder,......this makes some levels seem very monoton.

Level specific:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on April 06, 2019, 10:16:45 PM
Hi IchoTolot

Thanks for giving the pack and go and comments. :)

Have you got a replay for the 4 19 one?
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: IchoTolot on April 06, 2019, 10:32:36 PM
Have you got a replay for the 4 19 one?

As I stated:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on April 06, 2019, 10:48:58 PM
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: IchoTolot on April 07, 2019, 07:18:54 AM
Spoiler (click to show/hide)



Ok, good. That's what I wanted to know. :)

Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: IchoTolot on April 07, 2019, 07:56:45 AM
Solved it now and attached my solution.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on April 08, 2019, 11:29:32 AM
Don't think this is spoiler as such, that's the intended solution IchoTolot, welldone that is a tricky one to find but I kind of like the trick that you sort of have to use in that level.
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: Nepster on April 09, 2019, 05:23:43 PM
Ok, I finally solved 4-19, too. While the solution is very nice, I feel that you really should give players a bit more leeway in placing their skills.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on April 09, 2019, 11:22:11 PM
Thanks Nepster


Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: Swerdis on August 12, 2019, 08:31:26 PM
Hello,

I recently startet playing this level pack and I finished the "Blue Slope" rank today. It's different from the level packs I played so far for the levels are much bigger and the degree of difficulty varies considerably - a little too much for my taste, to be honest.

Some notes:

Levels 6-9: While I appreciate the idea of tutorial levels, I think these levels are damn hard for its kind. In level 7, a lot of precision is necessary while in level 9, I used an advanced trick for crowd control.
Level 11: A complete cakewalk compared to the levels before and after.
Level 12: This one is HARD. I'm quite sure I backrouted it, using a basher-glitch
Level 13: I personally don't belong to the people in this forum that don't like disjoint unions. The concept of this level is pretty nice though I think the four sub-levels could be more varied. There's too much building involved. Also, a time limit would be appropriate here since it would force the player to solve all the parts simultaneously.
Level 14: Easy one and a real builder fest. Levels of this type are a litte overrepresented in the pack so far.
Level 15: One of the best levels in the first rank! I like the name (always important for me), I like the chaotic visual design and I like the way I solved it - though I'm not sure if I did it the intended way. I'm very sure there are multiple solutions possible here.
Level 17: This is the only real puzzle and therefore it's the best level of "Blue Slope" - I agree with others here. Took me a while to find a solution.
Level 19: Much too hard for its position. Many falls are just above or below splat distance and it's almost impossible to estimate them all correctly. It's all try and error.
Level 20: Personally dont' like hidden exits. It's often said, but I believe that a level should give the player all information needed directly from the start (and yes, that's also true for hidden traps).

Now, this may a sound a little negative, but it's definately not true. Everyone has its own artistic handwriting and I like exploring this. And now I'm looking forward to the Red Slope rank.
All my solutions can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/user/Vidusaka/playlists


 
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: namida on August 12, 2019, 09:57:01 PM
Alright so, at the moment I'm pretty stumped on the next level in each of the other two packs I'm playing (SEBLems and Lemmings United), so I figured I'd give a new one a go.

Replays attached for all the levels I've solved so far.

Blue Slope feedback (click to show/hide)

I'll continue with Red Slope in a bit; though if I find again that I'm skipping more levels than I'm solving, I likely won't go much further than that.

Overall, my opinion is - this pack isn't very good so far, but, you definitely have potential to make a better pack in the future. Don't take this too harshly - I had the same issues with my early packs; I generally don't even acknowledge any of my packs earlier than Lemmings Plus I anymore because they had these same issues - levels being unnecesserially large, builder-y, difficulty all over the place, etc. Even Lemmings Plus I shows this effect to a small extent. It takes time to get good at this. Levels like "Blue Palace" show you do have the ability to make good open-ended levels, while some of your training levels and "Strange Place" show potential for puzzles (for example - the builder training level, while a bad level overall, relies on some clever thinking to seperate a worker - that is a good element; try using ideas like that in levels with less filler). You definitely shouldn't give up on level design - pay attention to the criticism of this pack, and chances are your next one will be much better. :D
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: namida on August 13, 2019, 01:11:12 AM
Continuing on with Red Slope,

Feedback (click to show/hide)

So, end of the second rank, and most levels are still general easy ones that are extremely builder-heavy. Sorry to say this, but I am not at all impressed with this pack, and I don't think I will be continuing any further with it. On the other hand, I am definitely interested to see what you create in the future, after taking into account the feedback you've gotten on this pack. :)
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on August 13, 2019, 11:58:41 AM
Thanks Namida and Swerdis

A lot levels have been builder heavy in that regards, thanks for your honest feedback. Looking forward to checking out your solutions.

Maybe I might of rushed this pack, sometimes I tend to rush projects which might be a bad thing. The second last level on the blue slope might be one I should of put into the later ranks but I'll probably keep it there for the time being. The tetris block levels seems to be an odd one here in that it is not too builder heavy but more of a puzzle type solution which it does seem to be a one in a blue moon type of thing.

No worries about the honest feedback, I will try to take into account what you are saying for any new projects in the future. I might of found it quite tricky thinking of different solutions without it being too builder heavy, there is one level I really don't like and I was thinking should I include it but I would this one is extremely builder heavy, I was thinking because we have the fast speed feature the builder heavy ones might not be too much of a problem maybe that's why I put more in than was needed. I probably need to cut down on that aspect of it.

I'm hoping the last two ranks won't be too builder heavy, there is one level I know for a fact I'm not proud of.

Don't worry about the honest feedback guys.
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on August 13, 2019, 06:41:18 PM
Try to compare it to an older pack rather than comparing it to the great packs that are out now, I wanted to be a traditionalist as I wanted to just stick with the way lemmings was in the past except there is one thing I did which was not traditionalist and that was the vertical scrolling, I know we had this in lemmings tribes so I thought I might as well do it that in my one. I thought a lot of the levels on mindlist's website are still very good puzzle wise and look really nice, even though they are older ones.

Try to compare it to my very first pack which was this one.

http://lemmings-db.camanis.net/levelpack/ag1zfmxlbW1pbmdzLWRichELEglMZXZlbFBhY2sY4s4FDA/

Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on August 13, 2019, 06:57:59 PM
Is there a shortcut for loading replays quick, I forgot how to do it as I left it for a while.

Sorry for the builder heavy type levels, there are quite a lot in the earlier ranks, hoping it is not as much further on.
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: namida on August 13, 2019, 08:03:04 PM
The shortcut key to load replays is "L", assuming you haven't changed it. This is true for both default hotkey layout choices.

So - you say you want to stick to traditional features. That's fine, you're far from alone in that regard. Although not all of them stick to old features still, there are several creators who have made amazing content using only "classic" features, such as IchoTolot's "Lemmings Reunion", Nepster's "NepsterLems", many one-off levels by Crane, etc.

And I fully understand that, builders make it easy to make huge levels, they also take up a lot of time so they "feel" like you're making a big, hard level. But usually, when you rely too hard on them, what you're actually creating is a big tedious level, not a big hard one. Don't take this too harshly - this is a mistake that almost everyone makes with their early content, and some people still make it sometimes even when they reach a higher level of skill. For example - SEBLems, which is an absolutely amazing pack from the 2nd rank onwards, has a few too many levels of this kind in the 1st rank.

A good way to overcome this is - try to create a pack, not necesserially a big one, it could just be 10 levels or so, while holding yourself to some specific rules that force you to change how you do things. In this case, perhaps set a limit on number of builders - maybe "no more than 4 in any single level, and the average per level across the entire pack must be 2 or less" - and perhaps a similar rule on level size. Think of other ways that such obstacles could be handled - for example, there's a wall lemmings need to get up? Instead of giving some builders, give the player two climbers, a blocker, and a miner. Or if getting up the wall really doesn't need to involve anything but building up, there's no need to prevent other lemmings going up it early, etc - don't even put the wall in the first place; put a ramp instead. There's a gap? Maybe there's a different path that goes around it - or maybe they do build over it, but it's a single small gap that only needs one or two builders. Which brings me to another thing to consider - if you don't have much reason why you need a gap that requires multiple builders to cross, shorten the gap so it only needs one or two. For the purpose of this suggestion, if you have several gaps in a row that require one or two builders each, generally, treat them as one big gap. Of course, there are cases where this suggestion might not quite fit. For an example, see "The Buildo Station", Danger 18 in my pack Lemmings Plus I. This is a level with 25 builders, and players will generally use most, or even all, of them. But due to the nature of how they're used, the level can be completed in under 1 minute - and indeed, it must be, as it has a 1 minute time limit. Another example of a level that's builder-heavy, but still a decent level, is "It's All A Matter Of Timing" from Oh No! More Lemmings! - because how to use those builders is a puzzle itself, it's not just a matter of repeatedly using them in obvious ways until you reach the exit.

Remember - levels do not have to be super long. Many of the most highly-regarded levels are actually quite small - from the official game, for example, the three most highly regarded levels in the original game are Mayhem 3, Mayhem 13 and Mayhem 20, all of which are fairly short levels, with few builders (2 in Mayhem 13, 1 each in the others). To the contrary, the massive, builder-heavy levels like Taxing 14, Mayhem 1 and Mayhem 14 tend to not be nearly as popular. Now don't take this the wrong way - it IS possible to make a huge level that's also very popular, the level that won Level Of The Year 2016 (IchoTolot's "Heroes of Lemkind") was fairly large. However - if you solve, or watch a solution to, this level, you'll notice that there isn't endless building just to clear a single obstacle. It definitely uses builders, but not to create single huge ramps. There are other levels in Lemmings Reunion that do involve creating single large ramps - but usually, one lemming will be doing this, and the real puzzle of the level is keeping the other lemmings busy while he does so.
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on August 13, 2019, 09:20:59 PM
Thanks for the information Namida

Hoping I do the spoiler thing okay. :)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sorry a bit all over the place with the levels , I get confused easily. I loved watching your video Swedis and thanks to Namida,, I might maybe try a 10 level pack at sometime in the future and avoid the long building type levels.
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: Swerdis on August 13, 2019, 11:03:16 PM
Hey Grams88,

thank your for watching my videos. I don't have to add a lot to what Namida has written since he perfectly summarized what could be done better. Just want to say: Don't take the criticism too much to your heart. I'll tell you something: I didn't create a level pack by myself so far, so it's absolutely unproven if I could do it better. And I'm quite sure your next pack will be a step forward. (I will finish this pack here, though.)

Greetings, Swerdis
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on August 14, 2019, 10:13:59 PM
Interesting reading what Namida has wrote, I will try to take that into account when I make my next pack, I don't think I will be changing much with this pack, it was even tricky making this one. :) I felt as if I made not bad puzzles considering not knowing much about Neolemmix and the tricks that many of us are used to. The big criticism seems to be with the heavy building and yes I agree a lot of the levels can get tedious because of this but I feel as if the later levels aren't really a build anyway type of levels. I feel as is some of the later levels you have to think a little bit before you build. A lot of the earlier levels were more following the lines of the original tricky levels in where you can build anyway so to say.

I could maybe focus on smaller levels in the future with less building. I can't really change this pack a lot, I wouldn't even no where to begin so it is what is. I would say this is not a pack for the regular forum members but more of a one for the newer members who have not really tried much neolemmix out. I wanted it to be a slight step up from the oh no more lemmings in that the tutorial levels are not meant to be your standard tutorial levels and they are meant to be a bit more challenging than your normal tutorial levels.

I'm hoping at least a lot the forum members do get a tiny tiny tiny amount of enjoyment from the level pack
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on August 25, 2019, 10:32:45 PM
Just some quick updates to two of the levels.

(Cave climbing) I have removed the barrier to the right and change some of the skill limits.
Thanks to Swerdis for this one. I mean to the left ooopps

(Will you rescue me) has some more steel areas. I think I thought about changing it slightly after watching Nepster's Attempt at the level.

I will update the download link on the first page where you download the pack. (Many thanks)
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on August 27, 2019, 09:38:37 PM
Hoping it is okay to post Swerdis's attempts or completing the (Ski Sloping Lemmings) if that's okay from Swerdis :) I think he plays through Deceits's pack as well which is a highly regarded pack in the community.

I try to avoid watching other playthroughs of packs if it is one I'm thinking of playing in the future, I guess you could say the same applies here. Be careful not to look at the youtube video if you are not wanting to see the solution to the levels in the pack.

I do have a lot of heavy building levels but the later levels of the pack gets you to think where to place the builders instead just randomly building and building. There's only a few levels which just contain the exploder, I thought the instant exploder works well in this scenario. (lol)  A little bit of my thinking because we have the frame stepping features I feel as if that will cut down on the tedious of the building in some levels. I did find if I did make a mistake in one of the levels the reverse feature seemed to take a long time, maybe it was the wrong button I was pressing, it was a frame stepping backwards type of thing if that makes sense.

I tend to take longer with things, what I mean by this is if I try to learn something usually if it is the level editor or duke3d level editor, if I leave it for maybe three or four weeks I feel like I need to relearn it, if I leave something for two or three weeks I get scared just incase I forget how to use it again. This seems to be a thing with me if I was to start projects.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq44L_5A-c8&list=UUOahFY7zAWCoGpKOQdUf7mw&index=45
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: namida on August 27, 2019, 09:47:39 PM
Quote
I did find if I did make a mistake in one of the levels the reverse feature seemed to take a long time, maybe it was the wrong button I was pressing, it was a frame stepping backwards type of thing if that makes sense.

NeoLemmix has a one-frame back button on the skill panel (if you aren't using the compact panel). You can go back one second by right-clicking it, or 5 seconds by middle-clicking it. (The same right/middle click equivalents also apply to the forward 1 frame button.)

You can configure hotkeys to jump forward or back by any amount of time you want. I'm not sure about the functional layout (but you can check under Config -> Hotkeys), but the traditional layout has:

< - Back 5 seconds
- - Back 1 second
B - Back 1 frame
N - Forward 1 frame
> - Forward 5 seconds
Spacebar - Forward 10 seconds

There's also two special skips that can be configured with hotkeys, which on the traditional layout are mapped to [ and ] respectively. The first jumps backwards to the last skill assignment, while the second jumps forwards until either a shrugger exists, or there are no active platformers, builders or stackers.

Finally, there is also the "Save State" feature. This doesn't carry over once you exit gameplay, but by configuring a hotkey, you can press Save State (under traditional layout, Enter) to save and Load State (under traditional layout, Backspace) to load. Note that this saves and loads replay data too, not just the current time position! This can be useful if you want to try something, but might want to revert back to your previous replay later - it's quicker than actually saving (and viewing part of) a replay file for this purpose.
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on August 29, 2019, 08:15:45 PM
(Thanks Namida for the information will have as look into that one as that will make things a lot easier).

NEW NEWS PLEASE READ

I've been thinking and I might maybe remove a level from each rank, I will try to remove the most hated level from each rank to bring the level pack down to 76 levels. Hoping not to edit any of the levels as it stands unless there is a serious backroute problem which I hope there is not.

Levels I might remove are (Blue Slope) = (Pillers of earth)
                                       (Red Slope) = (Inspired level)
                                       (Black Slope) = (Video game text) Looks like a horrible level
                                       (Orange Slope) = (Inspired by Ben Conway) Too much building

Should be okay to download now, I had a few problems and I think I managed to sort it out now.
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: WillLem on February 25, 2020, 11:52:45 AM
Here are replays & feedback for my favourite levels from this pack (coincidentally, all of them are in pillar style!):

Feedback (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on February 25, 2020, 12:42:04 PM
That was very nice to play through the ski Sloping lemmings pack, :thumbsup::thumbsup: I look forward to checking your replays out, I see you like the piller levels from the pack. The later levels are probably a lot better than the earlier levels in the pack.  Looking forward to checking it out Willem
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: WillLem on February 25, 2020, 11:55:14 PM
That was very nice to play through the ski Sloping lemmings pack, :thumbsup::thumbsup: I look forward to checking your replays out, I see you like the piller levels from the pack. The later levels are probably a lot better than the earlier levels in the pack.  Looking forward to checking it out Willem

To be fair, I haven't been able to solve every level! I'll have a look at the last rank at some point and see how far I can get through it.
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on February 26, 2020, 12:56:07 PM
No worries WillLem, I think there are some right hard ones in there, I rememember one level in particular that was very tricky, I won't mention what one it is.


Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: kaywhyn on August 30, 2021, 07:50:45 AM
Hello grams88,

I have completed the level pack, so I just wanted to attach my replays and give some feedback. I've also done an LP of the pack.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbp2m4KlFpJvuoGCKxPyBXHeIsM8DzlC7 (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbp2m4KlFpJvuoGCKxPyBXHeIsM8DzlC7). Enjoy! :P

General Feedback on the Pack

There's going to be a lot of echoing of what others before me have already said. As some of the long-time members already stated, there's way too many of the type of levels that most in the community dislike. In particular, there's way too many builderfests, as well as a lot of unnecessarily very tall levels that don't serve any purpose for being tall. For the latter, a lot of the levels can be done on a much smaller map. For the former, I definitely don't mind the occasional one, but after a while it does get on my nerves. In the same way, I don't mind the occasional hidden exit levels. Fortunately, there's only two of them, but there's too much buried exits, though! After a while, it got on my nerves that one needs to uncover the trigger area of the exit.

I will say the same as namida here, and overall I wasn't too impressed with the pack. However, I have noted that the pack isn't all bad. Despite a lot of the levels being of the type that most don't like, there's still some true gems in here.

For the Blue Slope rank, I must say my favorites here were Blue Slope 10 - Treat Earth Well and Blue Slope Slope 16 - Strange Place. I would agree that Blue Slope 18 - Very Dangerous Trail was the hardest of the entire rank. A lot of the splat falls were annoying, but that is the main obstacle of the level. Now that I think about it, I think there were some things that I could had made easier in the solution.

For the Red Slope rank, my favorites were Red Slope 3 - Tetris Blocks, Red Slope 5 - Think Carefully, and Red Slope 15 - Only One Miner. Red Slope 3 took a while, but it was a really satisfying one once the solution did click. Red Slope 5 was a really good puzzle to figure and hash out although admittedly the overhang to prevent coming back to the left was a bit annoying :laugh: Red Slope 15's practically similar to Blue Slope 10 in the level idea of isolating a pioneer and then releasing the crowd later, although the solution in both cases are obvious.

I would say the hardest in the Red Slope rank was Red Slope 10 - Learn as You Lem 2. It might seem that you have a lot of builders, but they surprisingly run out very fast. I'm not sure if it might be possible to finish with a spare builder or two, as well if a solution involving the bottom might exist. Still an unnecessarily tall level in my opinion, although without the decoration at the bottom the level would look super bare, so I think it's all right here. Also, levels where you have to assign so many of the same skill to a lot of lemmings aren't exactly my favorites, either. The level might had worked better if the entrance was a pre-assigned floater one instead.

For the Black Slope rank, I think this was probably your hardest rank in the pack. Honestly, despite being the final rank, the Orange Slope rank wasn't that bad. There were still some hard levels in there, but I think it was mostly due to how I'm already familiar with a lot of the tricks needed on many of the levels there.

My favorite in the Black Slope rank was Black Slope 1 - Great Lemming Caper Part Two (extremely nice reworking of the level from the OL with a really good solution! :)). As for the hard levels, lots of them here: Black Slope 3 - Bubbles, Bubbles Everywhere, Black Slope 7 - Uphill Struggle, Black Slope 8 - Welcome to the Red World, Black Slope 13 - Only Across, Black Slope 16 - Welcome to Grassland, Black Slope 17 - Two Blockers, and Black Slope 18 - Big World. The hardest part in Black Slope 3 was getting down safely, especially with the very limited builder supply. I guess the same can be said about Black Slope 8, since getting down safely is definitely the hardest part. I seemed to have found a really difficult solution to Black Slope 8, in contrast to Swerdis', hence why I really struggled with this level. The hardest part in Black Slope 13 was containing the crowds on the left side, but even after that, getting up to the exit is also very hard, especially considering the very limited builder supply.

For Black Slope 7, the main difficulty seems to come from the execution. In particular, doing the part with getting out the starting area without spending a builder was very frustrating to do. Even after that, the level still isn't a complete cakewalk, especially with making a climber friendly wall for everyone.

Black Slope 17 is extremely punishing in the skillset in that it allows absolutely no leeway or recovery from misplacing even one single builder. The hardest part to do was the far right side, but that in itself is super precise, making the turnaround point and getting up to the next platform with as little builders as possible. I would definitely reduce the precision here or even provide a couple of extra builders. Nothing is more frustrating than having to rewind so much and having to redo several parts of the level because of one screw up in one part of the level.

Most importantly, I will have to apologize for my full blown-out rage I exhibited in my LP on Black Slope 11 - Welcome to Venus. This is truly the first time I have ever fully raged on camera in an LP. It came from a combination of factors: using a route with very fiddly terrain that kept failing, fed up with a lot of the same stuff that had already been done to death before this point by this point in time, such as with the huge builderfests and very tall levels that are not necessary at all with being tall, and just being cranky from lack of sleep. As it turns out, I failed to realize something that I never considered in any of my attempts that would had made it a solve much earlier, hence I was a complete dummy on the level. In any case, it's amazing that I've managed to hold it together for more than 20 LPs before I truly raged for the very first time in an LP video. Not to mention deep down I felt I was suffering and on the verge of a nervous breakdown, stressing out a lot, and wincing in pain so much because I really wanted to just be done with the pack and get on to others I wanted to LP, because, sorry to say it grams88, but I wasn't the least bit impressed with the pack overall. However, as I've stated many times, it's the level I rage at, not the designer, as the author is the last person I would rage at. Even then, there's absolutely no excuse for my full-on rage, so again I apologize for that to you and also my viewers who see it if they happen to watch it. At the same time, I believe in always having the original recording, and hence I still upload it anyway, just to show viewers what can definitely happen during an LP. Obviously, I'm not proud of the moment I truly raged, but I still feel that I must show the video, anyway.

Luckily, it did get somewhat better after the Black Slope rank, because I felt the Orange Slope rank was your strongest rank in the entire pack. My favorites here were Orange Slope 1 - Abandoned Building, Orange Slope 2 - Cascade Again, Orange Slope 10 - Getting Through Those Bars, Orange Slope 12 - Trap of Death, and Orange Slope 14 - Floating Dream. Orange Slope 2 is a very nice remake of "Cascade" from the OL. Certainly harder, especially containing the crowd in the starting area, but once you figure it out, then the rest is somewhat easy. Orange Slope 12 is a really nice one, although I just hate how the starting area is quite small to work with in order to be able to save everyone.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The hardest in the Orange Slope rank were Orange Slope 4 - Frozen Ice Cave, Orange Slope 5 - 13th Kruger, Orange Slope 6 - Lemmings vs Spiders Two (also a very boring and annoying level to play and solve), Orange Slope 13 - Big Tree, and Orange Slope 18 - Fire and Death. There is a very similar level to Orange Slope 5 in Nuked Lems, except this one didn't give me as much trouble, interestingly enough. Still a really hard level, especially since it's not so obvious how to distribute the skills to any section at any point. This makes it very hard to plan out the solution. At least the number of trapdoors matches the number of lemmings, whereas there are some that don't spawn any lemmings in your Nuked Lems pack. Once again, the hardest part in Orange Slope 13 appears to be containing the crowd without a builder, as the level doesn't appear to be solvable if you do spend a builder to contain the crowd. Orange Slope 18 is a hard level only because it's the only level in the pack I wasn't able to solve after two recorded video attempts and hence had to switch to off-camera time. The solution itself fortunately isn't very tight, but there are a few very pixel precise skill assignments. I would definitely reduce the precision needed, just like Nepster said. Still quite a solid level, though!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The original version definitely does NOT warrant a repeat in Orange Slope 6! It was just very annoying and it's not obvious at all what is the best path to take with either of the entrances. Not to mention it just seems like a much worse complete mess of webs meshed together. I definitely think this level can go and it wouldn't harm the pack too much at all. Besides, there have already been a few bomberfest levels before this one. Guess this one just pushed the limit there.

Finally, for Orange Slope 11 - Follow the Steps Down, My Love, the lizard trap does not eat the Lemmings at all. I checked in the editor, and the trigger is too high by 1 pixel. Therefore, my solution shouldn't work at all but it does due to the misplaced trigger. Think the easiest fix would just be to spend another skill there with another lemming ahead of time so that not too many get killed and it would still be a solve.


Overall, I wouldn't recommend anyone to put this pack on their "to-play" list due to the reasons above, although it's nice to see that you took some of the feedback to heart to improve with your second pack. Now that I've played both of your packs, albeit backwards due to playing your second pack first before your first one, I can definitely agree that Nuked Lems is somewhat a step up from this pack. Especially in the builderfest levels, where I don't think there were really any in Nuked Lems, but unfortunately there's still a lot of unnecessarily tall levels. I still saw a lot of the same things in Nuked Lems, such as that one bomberfest level and the several mini sections that I really struggled with. Still, Nuked Lems is an improvement over Ski Sloping Lemmings.

So really, I guess I might spare anyone the agony of playing through this pack. Admittedly, I really did feel like I was suffering from a heart attack at some point during the Black Slope rank and felt I was suffering unnecessarily from LPing the pack. Honestly, I felt it was the worst decision I made in LPing the pack, but that's on me, as I brought it on myself. No fault of anyone's. However, it's nice to finally know that all levels are solvable and that now there's one person who solved the entire pack.

Just like the others have said, please don't take my harsh criticism too personally as well. Like Swerdis, I myself have not made a level pack yet, and I'm not sure if I ever will, although I haven't ruled it out completely, so I'm not sure if I personally can do better than this. Still, I hope the LP is enjoyable to watch despite my rising rage as the LP goes on. Outside of this, I hope you're doing well and that we'll see you around here sometime again soon! :)   
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on September 06, 2021, 11:29:57 PM
Hi Kaywhyn

It's good to hear from you, hope you have been doing well. Looking forward to checking your let's play out. I've been working on my the book which is about harm OCD. I'm hoping to maybe get it published as a paperback soon. See how things go in the future.

You don't mind if I post my thoughts here, hope that's okay.

Welldone on completing that pack, it's a very hard one and does contain a lot of builder heavy levels. I do feel my nuked Lems one was a lot better than the skii sloping lemmings. Nukem Lems seems to be getting a better reception than the skii sloping one. Interesting looking at the different solutions to the levels. I wasn't too impressed with the skii sloping lemmings myself, I was thinking of maybe removing it as it seems to be causing more frustration than anything else. I'm thinking about that as I don't think it's a good level pack, to be honest.

 I was hoping to maybe making more packs in the future but like before only focusing on the original eight skills ones. I'm not really one for the new skills at the moment as I haven't really looked into them too much. I wonder if I should have a go at making a big level pack again but lessons learned from the previous one especially skii sloping lemmings.

The bombing fest level in Nukedlems I wasn't too keen on myself as I remember it was like bomb after bomb. I remember that one. (hehe)

I might focus more on a similar pack like Nuked lems, I feel that this pack did a bit or is it fair to say a lot better than the skii sloping lemmings. One of the problems I had with skii sloping ones was because the frame stepping was there It sort of encourages me to maybe do alot of levels that are hard to execute if that makes sense.

Interesting you were mentioning about tall levels. The main reason I tend to do levels with maybe a lot of areas is more of a decoration thing, I like the idea of someone just looking around at the level, like the (art gallery) level from the original lemmings game. The decoration in lemmings is always a big thing with me. Maybe precision levels can get very annoying I agree totally there. Fire and death if I remember right was a level you had to have good precision.

It looks like I did 100 times better when making the Nuked Lems, I hope it's okay to say this as I want to improve and if I do simliar levels in the future, hoping people will like those ones.
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: kaywhyn on September 07, 2021, 12:19:25 AM
Hey grams88, it's great to hear from you :) Once again, I apologize if I sounded extremely harsh and patronizing in my feedback. I'm normally not one to have anything negative to say about level packs and usually just stick to the positive stuff, but there was just too much of the former that I felt it needed to be said. After all, it wouldn't be good if I was pretending that Ski Sloping Lemmings is a good pack, in contrast to the other long-time members who posted before me saying that the pack wasn't so good. Now that I've played through the entire pack, I'm in complete agreement with all of them, and you seem to be as well. I hope we didn't influence your decision into agreeing that it's not a well-done pack, though. As I stated further down, there were still some great gems in the pack. I felt the Orange Slope rank was the strongest rank in the entire pack, even though it's not the hardest IMO. That goes to the Black Slope rank, which I felt was the hardest rank in the entire pack.

You don't mind if I post my thoughts here, hope that's okay.

Of course not! This is your topic, after all. I just love reading and getting feedback from the pack author regarding my solutions myself ;)

Quote
I was hoping to maybe making more packs in the future but like before only focusing on the original eight skills ones. I'm not really one for the new skills at the moment as I haven't really looked into them too much. I wonder if I should have a go at making a big level pack again but lessons learned from the previous one especially skii sloping lemmings.

It's perfectly fine to just stick with the classic 8 skills, as I myself am a diehard traditionalist when it comes to the game of Lemmings myself (classic 8 skills, time limits on every level, etc). I would definitely love to see more level packs from you in the future. Nuked Lems was definitely somewhat better and a step up from Ski Sloping Lemmings, as I definitely saw that you took the feedback you got from the latter to improve the former.

Now that you mentioned it, I'll take this time to say that I thought your Lemmini packs were great! I especially loved your 25th anniversary pack, where you took several OL and ONML levels and made a completely different solution out of them. Even better was that some of the ones that appeared in Colorful Arty's Retro rank in Sublems for SuperLemmini had completely different solutions from his. I would love to revisit those levels sometime just because I remember them being really good. I remember your remake of Fun 2 being one of your hardest and one of the last ones that I managed to solve much later. Same with your remake of Crazy 4 from ONML, although honestly I'm not sure if I would like to do the solution again by hand, hence why I made sure to save a replay of it, because I remember it being a huge pain to execute. Also, I remember your "Pillars of Hercules" remake being a really hard one as well.

Quote
I might focus more on a similar pack like Nuked lems, I feel that this pack did a bit or is it fair to say a lot better than the skii sloping lemmings. One of the problems I had with skii sloping ones was because the frame stepping was there It sort of encourages me to maybe do alot of levels that are hard to execute if that makes sense.

Definitely better than Ski Sloping Lemmings in most ways ;) As for the framestepping existing in NL, yes, it does mean that authors can and have made levels where the absence of such tools make it impractical or nearly impossible to do, but it doesn't mean that it should be done. I will say this, and that is I don't mind pixel precision in solutions, as long as there isn't too much of it. Too much of it in a short amount of time is what will make me mind, similar to how I don't mind the occasional hidden trap but too many in a short amount of time will annoy me.

This was something that I aimed to avoid when I was making my contest levels. I noticed in the process of playtesting, that some of the very precise skill assignments kind of happened by accident due to the design and was therefore completely unintentional on my part. If that happened, I fixed it by allowing more pixels of leeway, as I don't want solutions from others to constantly fail by at least a pixel. I'll be honest, and that is levels where you know the solution but you have to constantly rewind to fiddle around and find the correct skill placements to be on the dot in regards to pixel precision tend to be no fun to play at all, a sentiment I'm sure I share with many of the other members here. Even more so when one's time is valuable.   
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: WillLem on April 09, 2024, 02:08:19 PM
@grams88

I'm currently looking at level packs which use only the Classic 8 skills and which might work well in SLX.

I remember enjoying playing this pack as the levels are not too difficult and have a lot of potential. We also seem to share a liking for traditional-style Lemmings gameplay, so I was wondering if you'd like to collaborate on an updated SLX version of this pack :lemcat: We could also look at adding some of the levels from Nuked Lemmings and create a compilation pack of the best levels from each, if that's something you'd be interested in.

Either that, or would you be happy for me to go ahead and remix some of the levels myself? I'd run everything by you before releasing the levels either way.

Let me know your thoughts on this,

- WL
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: grams88 on April 09, 2024, 03:50:37 PM
Hi WillLem, Hope you are doing well. :thumbsup: I remember those Ski Sloping lemmings. 

We are very similar in our traditional lemmings style levels. :thumbsup:  I think I did have a lot of builder heavy levels in that pack from what I remember, I liked using the ski slope colors as the difficulty rating. that will be good seeing the levels again and bring back some nice memories. :) We both do like out hidden exit levels even though I probably won't go tooo mad myself with it. :thumbsup:

Quote
Either that, or would you be happy for me to go ahead and remix some of the levels myself? I'd run everything by you before releasing the levels either way.

Hope I done the quote thing okay there, :laugh:

That second option sounds really good if that is okay with yourself, I'm sure you will make some good decisions, I could maybe have a little look to remind myself of the levels, I think there are a few youtube videos up there with the ski sloping lemmings.  I'm looking forward to seeing how this goes, You can pick any levels you want including the nuked lemmings, that will be fine with myself.

I remember they were levels I really liked In there, I'd probably need to refresh myself what the levels were again.  There was a level, I think it was called (Video game text) I think I removed that one as I didn't really like the way it turned out. I wasn't too keen myself on that (Video games text) level.
Title: Re: Ski Sloping Lemmings (80 Levels)
Post by: WillLem on April 10, 2024, 09:40:34 PM
That second option sounds really good if that is okay with yourself, I'm sure you will make some good decisions
...
You can pick any levels you want including the nuked lemmings, that will be fine with myself.

Thanks! I'll definitely send any work I do on this your way before anything is released anyway, but it's good to have your blessing :lemcat:

There was a level, I think it was called (Video game text) I think I removed that one as I didn't really like the way it turned out.

No worries, I'll make sure this one isn't included.

Idea: I'm thinking it might be good to title the project "88mph Lemmings", after your username ;P