My suggestion would be:
Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Disarmer, Blocker, Bomber, Stoner, Platformer, Builder, Stacker, Basher, Miner, Digger, Fencer, Walker, Cloner
Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Disarmer, Blocker, Bomber, Stoner, Platformer, Builder, Stacker, Basher, Miner, Digger, Fencer, Walker, Cloner
Does this mean I would have to fix the ordering of my custom pickup skills again?
I believe the editor and the player should have the same order as each other; I'm not overly fussed beyond that.Agreed. I believe Nepster mentioned in the other topic that this was already the intention, which is great.
Plus, in the original skill panel a bomber comes before the blocker. I think we can agree that in levels featuring only the classic skills (which there are still a lot of), the skill order should be the same that it has always been.Good point, though I would say even L1 got the ordering of "bomber" and "blocker" wrong :P
I'd put the Stacker after the Blocker and before Builder and Platformer, because it usually acts as a blocking-type skill as well. This is also the reason why I'd put the Stoner between Bomber and Blocker.I am against this: The terrain removal skills are "horizontal", "diagonal" and "vertical", so we should keep this order also for terrain removal skills. Moreover stackers are far more than just a blocking-type skill, so I don't see too much of a similarity between blocker and stacker.
The fencer is a reverse miner, so I prefer keeping those two adjacent.I have no huge opinion on this, so I am fine with keeping the fencer between the basher and the miner.
But other movement skills (jumper and shimmier) are proposed to be added in the future. Where would these be placed?I would have placed them exactly where Strato Incendus put them: They are lemming movement skills like the walker and the cloner, so they belong together.
Does this mean I would have to fix the ordering of my custom pickup skills again?Pickup skills are a very good point to bring up! You would most likely have to do nothing, though. Together with namida's suggestion, I have three ideas regarding this, but haven't decided between them:
3) I split pickup skills up into lots of separate images, one for eack skill. This would be by far the most work for me, but has the additional advantage, that it would remove the tight coupling between skills and styles. This means: I could add another skill (like the shimmier) and the styles are not forced to update, because suddenly one frame is missing in the pickup skill image.
I am against this: The terrain removal skills are "horizontal", "diagonal" and "vertical", so we should keep this order also for terrain removal skills. Moreover stackers are far more than just a blocking-type skill, so I don't see too much of a similarity between blocker and stacker.
Reason: The kill of a lem is secondary.
QuoteReason: The kill of a lem is secondary.And that is precisely the point I disagreed with earlier. Bombers and stoners [...] are affected [..] by the save requirement.
QuoteReason: The kill of a lem is secondary.
And that is precisely the point I disagreed with earlier. Bombers and stoners are the only skills which are affected with regards to their usability by the save requirement. A climber or glider can be affected in certain cases, when their permanently changed behaviour makes them go into death traps, but bombers and stoners kill 100% of the time. Any other skill can always be used, but bombers and stoners can't.
Specifically, when you assign a bomber to a glider, it is going to explode without the oh-no animation, so I don't know how it's supposed to make the drop straight. ???
I'm wondering if we've reached a consensus. We seem to be getting sidetracked. :lix-blush:
I guess replays won't be affected by this? Because replay files probably don't contain information about which slot in the panel gets selected, but simply which skill, no matter where it resides on the panel. If I add e.g. useless bombers to a level that only had seven skills beforehand, the replay file isn't affected either, after all.Indeed. Replay files contain the actual skill (like BUILDER, BASHER, ...), not the index of the skill button.
There has been an intention for a long time to decouple them from tilesets; it just didn't happen in time for the new-formats release. However, I will point out that GigaLem has personally been told several times that such an intention exists, and that if he does create custom pickup skills anyway, there would be no guarantee that future updates wouldn't break them (or the levels using them, for that matter). Disregard this if Nepster's stated intentions have changed since he took over.I have not stated intentions either way, because there have been other more pressing problems, so I forgot about this.
We have not. Simon's proposal is drastically different from previous proposals. I'll make a more detailed post tomorrow, it's very late now.I would be interested in your take on this, so here is a friendly reminder ;)
I'm still not sure about the walker. In Lix, it certainly belongs with the jumper and runner; in NL it (more weakly) belongs with the cloner. Yet I do see the argument for keeping the skill order of the two games as similar as possible. Maybe all of these skills should come before the permanent skills.Instead having the "Nonpermanent single lem" coming before the "Permanent", I would place them afterwards, i.e. either where they are in my original suggestion or alternatively between "Permanent" and "Batter/Blocker(/Bomber)". The reason is mainly that I don't want to split the non-permanent skills into two parts.
The reason is mainly that I don't want to split the non-permanent skills into two parts.
I am surprised that everybody sees the bomber as a killer and blocker-canceller first, and as a terrain remover second.I would guess that the timed bombers from L1 made them so annoying for terrain removal purposes, that we still don't group them with the destructive skills.
I am surprised that everybody sees the bomber as a killer and blocker-canceller first, and as a terrain remover second. If people feel so strongly about this, then keep blocker-bomber-stoner as in Nepster's previous post.
Walker is a universal canceller and should come either first, or immediately after permanents, okay.
-- Simon