Lemmings Forums

NeoLemmix => Bugs & Suggestions => Closed => Topic started by: Nepster on July 21, 2018, 08:27:29 AM

Title: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Nepster on July 21, 2018, 08:27:29 AM
I am not suggesting here to go back to the L1 order and add the new skills at the end!

The current order is:
Walker, Climber, Swimmer, Floater, Glider, Disarmer, Bomber, Stoner, Blocker, Platformer, Builder, Stacker, Basher, Fencer, Miner, Digger, Cloner

My suggestion would be:
Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Disarmer, Blocker, Bomber, Stoner, Platformer, Builder, Stacker, Basher, Miner, Digger, Fencer, Walker, Cloner

Here are the reasons:
1) The walker skill is not a permanent skill, so should not be grouped with them. Actually if there is any other similar skill, then it would be the cloner, because they are non-permanent skills not modifying any terrain (with the blocker being the only other one).
2) Climbers, floaters and gliders share one similarity, namely they deal with high walls (just going on opposite directions). On the other hand swimmers and disarmers are similar, because both deal with previously deadly objects. So I would like to move the swimmer after floaters and gliders.
3) I would like to have blockers and bombers next to each other, because quite often they are used on one and the same lemming. On the other hand grouping bombers and stoners as the lemming-killing skills makes sense, too. So I suggest to move the blocker in front of the bomber.
This has the additional advantage that the blocker (which is usually applied first) now comes before the bomber (something I never understood about the L1 oder).
4) In my opinion there is no intuitive order of the four terrain removal skills (apart from the bomber). So I would suggest moving the fencer after the digger, to keep the "basher-miner-digger" oder that we are all used to.

A much more radical suggestion would be:
Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Disarmer, Platformer, Builder, Stacker, Stoner, Basher, Miner, Digger, Fencer, Bomber, Blocker, Walker, Cloner

Again the list of reasons (in addition to the ones above):
1) This groups the skills as "permanent", "terrain adding", "terrain removing", "lemming-only"
2) However it splits up the two lemming-killing skills, which might be a downside.

PS: This suggestion was triggered by the suggestion to reorder the skills in the editor (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3924), because I don't want to reorder them twice.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: IchoTolot on July 21, 2018, 08:59:09 AM
My suggestion would be:
Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Disarmer, Blocker, Bomber, Stoner, Platformer, Builder, Stacker, Basher, Miner, Digger, Fencer, Walker, Cloner

This sounds good to me. :)
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Strato Incendus on July 21, 2018, 09:57:41 AM
Quote
Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Disarmer, Blocker, Bomber, Stoner, Platformer, Builder, Stacker, Basher, Miner, Digger, Fencer, Walker, Cloner

I'm also in favour of this one! :) The fact that the bomber is a destructive and the stoner a creative skill with regards to terrain is usually much less relevant than the fact that both are "lemming destructive" ;) .
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Proxima on July 21, 2018, 12:38:14 PM
Link to Lix discussion of the same issue (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2145.0) (note: the links to "Clam's suggestion" and "my suggestion" in the first post no longer work).

I think the reordering is good, but I have a couple of quibbles. The fencer is a reverse miner, so I prefer keeping those two adjacent. The walker is the hardest to place, because of its multiple uses. In Lix it's considered a movement skill and grouped with the runner and jumper (of which the runner is also a permanent skill, so this group goes adjacent to the other permanents). In current NL, it's most similar to the cloner (both result in a lemming going the opposite direction; both can be meaningfully assigned to any worker, albeit with different results). But other movement skills (jumper and shimmier) are proposed to be added in the future. Where would these be placed?
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Strato Incendus on July 21, 2018, 01:23:47 PM
Okay, the fencer is a fair point. Plus, in the original skill panel a bomber comes before the blocker. I think we can agree that in levels featuring only the classic skills (which there are still a lot of), the skill order should be the same that it has always been.

Which would mean:

Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Disarmer, Bomber, Stoner, Blocker, Stacker, Builder, Platformer, Basher, Fencer, Miner, Digger, Walker, Cloner

I'd put the Stacker after the Blocker and before Builder and Platformer, because it usually acts as a blocking-type skill as well. This is also the reason why I'd put the Stoner between Bomber and Blocker.

Platformers and Bashers both move strictly horizontally, which is why I'd group them together.

The Fencer comes after the Basher, because it originally (in L2) was more similar to a Basher; plus, Miner and Digger both move downward, so it would feel weird for me to have the Fencer in between the Miner and the Digger.

The Shimmier could then be added e.g. between Climber and Floater, because it's a horizontally moving Climber - but of course it's not permanent.

That's why in combination with the Jumper, it would probably make more sense to put Walker, Jumper, Shimmier, Cloner at the end (in that order).
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: GigaLem on July 21, 2018, 08:05:42 PM
Does this mean I would have to fix the ordering of my custom pickup skills again?
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: namida on July 21, 2018, 09:15:46 PM
Does this mean I would have to fix the ordering of my custom pickup skills again?

Probably. And I recall myself mentioning several times (though I don't know if any newer decisions by Nepster might have gone against this, so if so, ignore me), that custom pickup skill objects are not a good idea, firstly in case of changes like this, and secondly because them being a type of object rather than a level element in their own right (like preplaced lemmings) was more of a kludge than how they should actually work, and will probably be changed sooner or later.



Regarding the overall proposal, while I'm not a huge fan of the new order, I also don't see it as a huge issue, so put me down as "neutral" on this one. I believe the editor and the player should have the same order as each other; I'm not overly fussed beyond that.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: nin10doadict on July 21, 2018, 10:01:21 PM
Quote
I believe the editor and the player should have the same order as each other; I'm not overly fussed beyond that.
Agreed. I believe Nepster mentioned in the other topic that this was already the intention, which is great.
Though I did make a level where there are blocks and pickup skills arranged in a way to mimic the skill panel, so mixing up the order would mean modifying this level to match. Small potatoes, but still.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Nepster on July 22, 2018, 07:41:17 AM
Plus, in the original skill panel a bomber comes before the blocker. I think we can agree that in levels featuring only the classic skills (which there are still a lot of), the skill order should be the same that it has always been.
Good point, though I would say even L1 got the ordering of "bomber" and "blocker" wrong :P

I'd put the Stacker after the Blocker and before Builder and Platformer, because it usually acts as a blocking-type skill as well. This is also the reason why I'd put the Stoner between Bomber and Blocker.
I am against this: The terrain removal skills are "horizontal", "diagonal" and "vertical", so we should keep this order also for terrain removal skills. Moreover stackers are far more than just a blocking-type skill, so I don't see too much of a similarity between blocker and stacker.

The fencer is a reverse miner, so I prefer keeping those two adjacent.
I have no huge opinion on this, so I am fine with keeping the fencer between the basher and the miner.

But other movement skills (jumper and shimmier) are proposed to be added in the future. Where would these be placed?
I would have placed them exactly where Strato Incendus put them: They are lemming movement skills like the walker and the cloner, so they belong together.

Does this mean I would have to fix the ordering of my custom pickup skills again?
Pickup skills are a very good point to bring up! You would most likely have to do nothing, though. Together with namida's suggestion, I have three ideas regarding this, but haven't decided between them:
1) I will go through the styles and modify the pickup skills to match the final order. The main problem is that this is not backwards-compatibel and it's not clear to players that they have this problem at all, because NeoLemmix still would work fine, just display the wrong images.
2) I reorder them internally: This would mean no changes to the images, but everyone creating styles would have to keep in mind that the pickup-order is not the usual skill oder.
3) I split pickup skills up into lots of separate images, one for eack skill. This would be by far the most work for me, but has the additional advantage, that it would remove the tight coupling between skills and styles. This means: I could add another skill (like the shimmier) and the styles are not forced to update, because suddenly one frame is missing in the pickup skill image.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: IchoTolot on July 22, 2018, 08:40:54 AM
Quote
3) I split pickup skills up into lots of separate images, one for eack skill. This would be by far the most work for me, but has the additional advantage, that it would remove the tight coupling between skills and styles. This means: I could add another skill (like the shimmier) and the styles are not forced to update, because suddenly one frame is missing in the pickup skill image.

I think as bad as this sounds in terms of workload, in the long term this is the best solution. (+ I think we are aiming for exactly that.)

Less tight couplings eases future changes and ensures more backwards compability. Also as you said future additions do not force tons of style adaptations.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Strato Incendus on July 22, 2018, 10:20:16 AM
Quote
I am against this: The terrain removal skills are "horizontal", "diagonal" and "vertical", so we should keep this order also for terrain removal skills. Moreover stackers are far more than just a blocking-type skill, so I don't see too much of a similarity between blocker and stacker.

Ah, good point! :)

So that would mean then:

Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Disarmer, Bomber, Stoner, Blocker, Platformer, Builder, Stacker, Basher, Fencer, Miner, Digger, Walker, Cloner
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Simon on July 22, 2018, 01:08:04 PM
The fencer belongs immediately left of the basher. Reason: Then each next skill carves further downwards than the previous.

The bomber goes with the destructive skills. Reason: The kill of a lem is secondary. It's sad that walker is assignable to blocker. It's also sad that bomber is allowed on blockers and I can't dismiss this argument for keeping them together entirely. At least I find the connection between blocker and bomber too weak to warrant their side-by-side. There is a similar connection between walker and blocker. Is that strong enough?

The ideas behind the radical regrouping are good.

Group 1. Walker, cloner, jumper, shimmier, batter, Blocker.
Group 2. Runner, climber, floater, glider, swimmer, disarmer.
Group 3. Builder, platformer, cuber, stoner.
Group 4. Bomber, fencer, basher, miner, digger.

I am considering to adapt the order in Lix to match the NL order, but first, the NL order should rid all obvious bugs. Tradition is a weak argument for Lix's designs.

-- Simon
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Strato Incendus on July 22, 2018, 01:35:10 PM
Quote
Reason: The kill of a lem is secondary.

And that is precisely the point I disagreed with earlier. Bombers and stoners are the only skills which are affected with regards to their usability by the save requirement. A climber or glider can be affected in certain cases, when their permanently changed behaviour makes them go into death traps, but bombers and stoners kill 100% of the time. Any other skill can always be used, but bombers and stoners can't.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Simon on July 22, 2018, 02:06:27 PM
Quote
Reason: The kill of a lem is secondary.
And that is precisely the point I disagreed with earlier. Bombers and stoners [...] are affected [..] by the save requirement.

Therefore what? You can still keep them next to each other even when you group stoner with other creators and bomber with other removers.

-- Simon
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Strato Incendus on July 22, 2018, 02:47:27 PM
Ah, okay, you mean by putting the stoner at the end of the creative and the bomber at the beginning of the destructive skills, you'd still have lethality as a "bridge" between them. ;)
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: namida on July 22, 2018, 07:53:50 PM
Quote
Reason: The kill of a lem is secondary.

And that is precisely the point I disagreed with earlier. Bombers and stoners are the only skills which are affected with regards to their usability by the save requirement. A climber or glider can be affected in certain cases, when their permanently changed behaviour makes them go into death traps, but bombers and stoners kill 100% of the time. Any other skill can always be used, but bombers and stoners can't.

It is possible under specific circumstances to *usefully* assign a bomber or stoner, and have the lemming survive. Without too much detail, just remember that ohnoers will fall if they have nothing to stand on, and that until the lemming actually explodes, it can still exit safely. I myself have created two 100%-required levels that cannot be solved without using a bomber.

Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Strato Incendus on July 22, 2018, 08:15:00 PM
I know the oh-noer could be used in Lemmings Revolution as a surrogate floater - that's because it was possible to cancel a bomber like any other skill: by assigning a different one. You could make a lemming do the oh-no part while landing (which apparently is mutually exclusive with the splatting animation), and then assign e.g. a builder to save him :D . That doesn't work in NeoLemmix, of course.

Specifically, when you assign a bomber to a glider, it is going to explode without the oh-no animation, so I don't know how it's supposed to make the drop straight. ???
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: namida on July 22, 2018, 08:17:07 PM
Specifically, when you assign a bomber to a glider, it is going to explode without the oh-no animation, so I don't know how it's supposed to make the drop straight. ???

You assign it *before* he starts falling. :)

More specific (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: nin10doadict on July 23, 2018, 12:38:13 AM
Well, now I know why that level was so far up there and why I couldn't solve it before. Those tips were enough to figure it out; I never would have without them... Absolutely disgusting. :thumbsup: :devil:

On the topic of the skill ordering, I'm wondering if we've reached a consensus. We seem to be getting sidetracked. :lix-blush:
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Proxima on July 23, 2018, 01:51:33 AM
I'm wondering if we've reached a consensus. We seem to be getting sidetracked. :lix-blush:

We have not. Simon's proposal is drastically different from previous proposals. I'll make a more detailed post tomorrow, it's very late now.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Strato Incendus on July 23, 2018, 01:53:32 PM
Simon's suggestion is more radical because it would indeed alter the order of classic skills as well.

I guess replays won't be affected by this? Because replay files probably don't contain information about which slot in the panel gets selected, but simply which skill, no matter where it resides on the panel. If I add e.g. useless bombers to a level that only had seven skills beforehand, the replay file isn't affected either, after all.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Nepster on July 23, 2018, 03:51:04 PM
I guess replays won't be affected by this? Because replay files probably don't contain information about which slot in the panel gets selected, but simply which skill, no matter where it resides on the panel. If I add e.g. useless bombers to a level that only had seven skills beforehand, the replay file isn't affected either, after all.
Indeed. Replay files contain the actual skill (like BUILDER, BASHER, ...), not the index of the skill button.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: IchoTolot on July 23, 2018, 03:52:21 PM
I read a lot in IRC about tileset designers worrying about the workload with rearranging the custom pickup skills. I want to take away the worries a bit. :)

If Nepster's 3rd suggestion is accepted:

3) I split pickup skills up into lots of separate images, one for eack skill. This would be by far the most work for me, but has the additional advantage, that it would remove the tight coupling between skills and styles. This means: I could add another skill (like the shimmier) and the styles are not forced to update, because suddenly one frame is missing in the pickup skill image.

Then near to no new work will follow from this. The worst case would be you have to seperate long custom pick-ups graphics into single pngs for each skill and I think even if that would be nessesary this can be done quickly. ;)
Also what will follow from this change will be a great improvement from the backwards compability and stability side: Any future skill changes won't affect your already implemented pick-ups anymore. Only in the case of a new skill 1 additional image must be provided and that is unavoidable anyway, but Nepster already descibed that. The uncoupling makes everything way more robust to future changes.

The skills could be swapped as they pleased and it won't matter anymore.

So I am highly in favor of this point being implemented and I would even offter to help with cutting the long pick-up pngs into single skill bits!

For the general new ordering: Do as you please! Decide on a senseful ordering and I will accept it (I don't care that much here, as long as it isn't random). ;P
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Nepster on July 23, 2018, 05:21:03 PM
Regarding the pickup skills: I thought what I wrote above already implied that for all existing styles, I will do the image updates myself. As I don't have to create any new images, and just cut and past from an already existing sprite, even I can do that ;) So don't worry about the workload for yourself - there will be essentially none!
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Simon on July 23, 2018, 05:49:18 PM
Re Pickups: Very good to decouple them either from tilesets or from internal ordering.

(http://www.lixgame.com/etc/skillset-reorder-2018-07-20.png)

I reordered the Lix skills and gave 1 of each L1 skill. Screenshot of my last proposal. Floater is adjacent to builder, and both have this bright yellow despite their massive difference. :-\

There are really 5 categories of skills:
1. No terrain change, movement of single lem.
2. No terrain change, affect other lems.
3. No terrain change, permanent skill.
4. Terrain addition.
5. Terrain removal.

I feel like 1-2-3 have coherence as a supergroup, and, separately, 4-5 also.

(http://www.lixgame.com/etc/skillset-reorder-strato-2018-07-22.png)

This would follow from Strato's most recent proposal. Blocker sits in the middle of constructive skills, and it tacks group 1 at the end.

-- Simon
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: namida on July 23, 2018, 09:12:52 PM
There has been an intention for a long time to decouple them from tilesets; it just didn't happen in time for the new-formats release. However, I will point out that GigaLem has personally been told several times that such an intention exists, and that if he does create custom pickup skills anyway, there would be no guarantee that future updates wouldn't break them (or the levels using them, for that matter). Disregard this if Nepster's stated intentions have changed since he took over.

With that being said, if the graphics are already up to date (ie: they contain blank + all 17 skills, in the current order), it should be very simple to create some code that reorders them to the correct new order. There would still be a need to create new frames for Jumper and Shimmier, once added. This could be automated (see: when the Fencer was added, code was added to NeoLemmix to automatically add a Fencer pickup skill graphic to any pickup skill objects that didn't already have one - this worked by assuming (and this held true to both advice given at the time, and the situation in reality at the time) that all existing pickup skill objects were the default graphic, just recolored; and from there it would grab the border and background color from an existing frame, then draw the cropped-to-fit-in-the-circle Fencer graphic on top of it), but is a lot more work than reordering. This code probably no longer exists in the new-formats version, but could be digged up by going back in the repo to the V10.13.18 release (which IIRC, did still have this code).
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Nepster on July 26, 2018, 04:03:47 PM
There has been an intention for a long time to decouple them from tilesets; it just didn't happen in time for the new-formats release. However, I will point out that GigaLem has personally been told several times that such an intention exists, and that if he does create custom pickup skills anyway, there would be no guarantee that future updates wouldn't break them (or the levels using them, for that matter). Disregard this if Nepster's stated intentions have changed since he took over.
I have not stated intentions either way, because there have been other more pressing problems, so I forgot about this.

We have not. Simon's proposal is drastically different from previous proposals. I'll make a more detailed post tomorrow, it's very late now.
I would be interested in your take on this, so here is a friendly reminder ;)
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Simon on July 27, 2018, 09:07:21 PM
(http://www.lixgame.com/etc/skillorder-20178-07-27.png)

The supergroups might make more sense in this odering. First, everything that doesn't affect other lems. Then, everything that affects other lems.

1. Nonpermanent single lem
2. Permanent single lem
3. Permanent that affects others (NL disarmer)
4. Batter, Blocker that directly affect. Maybe swap to blocker-batter. NL: only Blocker.
5. Adders. Maybe swap to connect cuber-exploder. *)
6. Removers.

The only difference to the 2017 Lix layout is that the exploder goes with the terrain removers.

*) When all 14 skills are shown at any time, you can leave the killing adder at the left. Then the adders and the removers have an equal order, the killing skill comes first in both. Probably put killing skills next to each other in NL?

--  Simon
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Proxima on July 28, 2018, 02:29:04 PM
Thanks for the reminder. It's been a pretty horrible week, but hey, weekend, time I got around to this.

I prefer Nepster's original suggestion, with my fencer modification (i.e. this order (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3925.msg71818#msg71818)), to Simon's proposal. I have two main reasons for this:

(1) Getting the eight original skills out of order is a serious drawback for NL (as opposed to Lix) because of the wealth of older content, when these were the only skills existing, that NL strives to keep available. This applies to levels with patterened skillsets and other, subtler patterns (e.g. the ordering of the tutorial levels in GemLems). I'm (hesitantly) okay with Nepster's bomber-blocker switch, because this is a small change and has good reasons in favour, but a more drastic change would need stronger reasons in favour. Which brings me to:

(2) "Bomber destroys terrain" does not seem a good enough reason for grouping it with the other destructive skills. The fencer, basher, miner and digger are variants of the same idea, with only the direction of travel different between the four; the bomber is completely different in all respects except that it is also destructive. The bomber is the only L1 skill that kills the lemming, and it is the only instantaneous skill, i.e. its action includes stopping itself, by contrast to the blocker and all the other terrain removers, which continue until something else stops them. NL's stoner and Lix's cuber share these features. Similarly, the stoner and cuber are not variants of the same idea in the same way the builder, platformer and stacker are.

I'm still not sure about the walker. In Lix, it certainly belongs with the jumper and runner; in NL it (more weakly) belongs with the cloner. Yet I do see the argument for keeping the skill order of the two games as similar as possible. Maybe all of these skills should come before the permanent skills.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Nepster on July 28, 2018, 02:40:15 PM
I'm still not sure about the walker. In Lix, it certainly belongs with the jumper and runner; in NL it (more weakly) belongs with the cloner. Yet I do see the argument for keeping the skill order of the two games as similar as possible. Maybe all of these skills should come before the permanent skills.
Instead having the "Nonpermanent single lem" coming before the "Permanent", I would place them afterwards, i.e. either where they are in my original suggestion or alternatively between "Permanent" and "Batter/Blocker(/Bomber)". The reason is mainly that I don't want to split the non-permanent skills into two parts.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Proxima on July 28, 2018, 03:01:38 PM
The reason is mainly that I don't want to split the non-permanent skills into two parts.

I see your point there. Also, four of NL's permanent skills deal with movement of a single lemming, so they naturally belong with the jumper and shimmier (if implemented), which belong with the walker for the same reason as in Lix.

A bit of a pity that in NL, disarmer will split up the group of movement skills, but I think it's more important to keep the permanent skills together.

Also, this would bring cloner next to the permanent skills, which highlights its function of duplicating permanent skills. However, because the cloner can duplicate almost any skill, maybe it would be better to leave it at the end, separated from the walker.

So, my new proposal, with a few lingering doubts indicated:
Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Disarmer, (Cloner?), Walker, (Jumper, Shimmier), (Bomber?), Blocker, (Bomber?), Stoner, Platformer, Builder, Stacker, (Fencer?), Basher, (Fencer?), Miner, Digger, (Cloner?)

* Cloner: see above paragraph.
* Bomber: see Nepster's original argument for moving after blocker. The only reason for keeping it before is to preserve L1's order.
* Fencer: Simon has a good point about the geometrical ordering of the four terrain removers. I still (marginally) prefer fencer after basher, because the basher is the simplest and the fencer and miner can both be seen as modifications of it; also the fencer is a miner in reverse. But I don't mind if Simon's ordering gets accepted here.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: namida on July 28, 2018, 08:27:12 PM
I think the constructive skills should match the order of destructive skills (in terms of directions), if we're going for that?

Thus:

if Fencer, Basher, Miner, Digger: constructive should be either Builder, Platformer, Stacker; or Platformer, Builder, Stacker (depending whether Builder takes the place of Fencer or Miner)
if Basher, Fencer, Miner, Digger: constructive should be Platformer, Builder, Stacker

Regarding which of those two to actually use for destructive skills, I find myself partially in favor of Fencer, Basher, Miner, Digger, but it's far from a huge deal. I do prefer the Platformer, Builder, Stacker order.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Proxima on July 28, 2018, 08:31:01 PM
Oh yeah, I copied the list from Strato's post without checking whether he'd sneakily changed anything from earlier posts. :o I agree with putting the stacker after the other two, and having the builder-platformer order match the basher-fencer order.

I would also put the stoner after the bomber and blocker, regardless of what we decide about ordering those two.

I've edited the above post with these corrections.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: namida on July 28, 2018, 09:02:44 PM
Hm, time for me to put thought into this and come up with a proper response, instead of scattered "I like this" or "I don't like this", I think.



I'll start by saying I agree with the train of thought that destructive skills should have one of two orderings:
- Basher, Fencer, Miner, Digger (horizontal, two diagonal, vertical) [BFMD]
- Fencer, Basher, Miner, Digger (diagonal up, horizontal, diagonal down, vertical) [FBMD]
I can see similar patterns arising in the constructive skills obviously, but also the permanent skills. Thus, depending on which of these is picked, would also affect what I think should be picked for those two groups.

(I could also see a third acceptable order here: Basher, Miner, Fencer, Digger. But it seems few if any people like that one. In terms of what factors support it, it would be in the same position as BFMD, except with one less factor: BFMD preserves the existing order. While that in and of itself isn't always a good reason to keep something the way it is, I do think it's fair to consider it a tiebreaker between two otherwise very close options.)

Finally, I don't have a huge amount of preference on what order the groups are in. But where I do, I'll mention it.



Permanent skills
Climber should come first or last. Reason: It's the only one that doesn't allow surviving an otherwise-unsurvivable obstacle, giving it a unique factor compared to the others.
Floater and Glider should be together. Not particularly worried about the order of the two; though if we're going Miner > Digger for destructive and Builder > Stacker for constructive, maybe Glider before Floater makes sense (the diagonal skill comes first).
Arguably, one could extend that with directions and consider swimmer the horizontal survival-permanent. This is a bit of a stretch. However, unlike Climber or Disarmer, Swimmer doesn't have much else going to determine where it should be - the only other real argument is "does its existing position make sense, if so, why change it?"
However, alternatively (or as well), one could consider a climber as an "inverse floater", similar to a Fencer being an "inverse miner".
Disarmer is the only one that doesn't involve movement. It should come first or last.

Thus, I think:
BFMD: This groups the two diagonals together, so likewise, we should group the two verticals together in these skills. So, Swimmer, Glider, Floater, Climber. Since the first and last should be Climber and Disarmer, the overall result - Disarmer, Swimmer, Glider, Floater, Climber.
FBMD: This one goes through the directions (for a right-facing lemming) clockwise, starting from closest to straight upwards, so likewise, do the same here. So, Climber, Swimmer, Glider, Floater, Disarmer. (Disarmer going last for the same reasons it went first in BFMD.)

Additional advantage to putting Disarmer last: If the next group is constructive skills, or bomber/stoner, Disarmer is next to skills that modify the level in some way; it's also the only permanent skill that does that too.



Blocker, Bomber, Stoner

Blocker has a somewhat permanent effect. Bomber is destructive. Stoner is constructive. However, I'd definitely say these three are their own subgroup, rather than those skills being part of each of those groups respectively. This does give rise to very easy ordering - whatever order those three major groups are in (relative to each other), reflect that with this. If the skill panel's overall order has permanents > constructive > destructive; order this one Blocker, Stoner, Bomber.

With that being said, I can see one other way that would work well. Place this group between constructive and destructive skills (I'm assuming that the new order will retain "constructives come before destructives"), and order it Stoner, Blocker, Bomber. I don't like how this seperates Stoner and Bomber with another skill, but I do like how it puts the two of them next to the major group they're closer to.

A more radical idea: Use that "put inbetween and order appropriately" for Stoner and Bomber. Reclassify Blocker as a movement skill, alongside Walker and Cloner.



Constructive skills

Follow the same order (directionally) as the destructive skills. 'nuff said. :)



Movement Skills (Walker, Cloner, Jumper, Shimmier(, Blocker?))

I feel in the overall order, these should be placed first. They're basically like permanent skills, except non-permanent, so should be next to that group.

Direction doesn't really work for ordering. Walker can be 0d or 180d from current direction, depending on situation. Cloner is 0d and 180d. Jumper moves at a forwards-upwards angle at first, but the ultimate destination is horizontal. Shimmier moves upwards at first, but eventually follows a horizontal path. Blocker doesn't move at all.

Instead, one way we could order this is based on how permanent the effect is. There are two ways of looking at it - the effect on the level overall, or the effect on the individual lemming. I would say the correct ordering, for whichever one of these is chosen, would be "least permanent to most", given that the permanent skills are the next group on the panel.

If we are looking at effects on the level overall, the order should be: Walker, Jumper, Shimmier, (Blocker,) Cloner. Although the cloned lemming can die or exit, it won't ever be "uncreated" (whereas a blocker can be freed) - if a cloner has been used, you're either killing one more lemming, or saving one more lemming, than the base amount. This is weak and maybe arbitrary, I would not be very strongly opposed to switching the two - indeed, it could be argued that blocker actually creates an obstacle, Cloner just adds a lemming. Maybe I do prefer this way. If Blocker is not put in this group, it's irrelevant - Cloner is definitely more "permanent" in a global sense, than Shimmier. (Shimmier vs Jumper simply comes from "I suspect the average shimmier assignment will take longer to complete than the average jumper assignment".)

If we are looking at effects on the individual lemming, the order should be: Cloner, Walker, Jumper, Shimmier, Blocker. Cloner doesn't affect the target lemming at all. Walker gives a single instantaneous effect and the lemming goes on as normal. Jumper and Shimmier take some time, with the latter (usually) taking longer. Blocker remains so until freed or killed. With that being said, I can't put my finger on a logical reason why, but this order feels weird to me. If we're taking this approach, despite it not technically following the guideline, this alternative feels more right to me - but again, this is purely based on how it feels, not something I can back up with logic: Walker, Cloner, Jumper, Shimmier, Blocker. Perhaps we should just avoid this and use the "global effect". But I don't know why, I just really seem to prefer this one.



After thinking about all the above and trying to come up with one single proposal, here's my final suggestion.

Movement skills
1. Walker
2. (Jumper)
3. (Shimmier)
4. Cloner
5. Blocker

Permanent skills
6. Climber
7. Swimmer
8. Glider
9. Floater
10. Disarmer

Constructive skills
11. Platformer
12. Builder
13. Stacker

Lemming-killing skills
14. Stoner
15. Bomber

Destructive skills
16. Fencer
17. Basher
18. Miner
19. Digger

This also has the advantage of being fairly close to the existing order. Cloner is moved to 2nd (or 4th, once Jumper and Shimmier are inserted). Glider and Floater are swapped, and Blocker is moved forward. Stoner and Bomber are swapped, and moved further back. Finally, Basher and Fencer are swapped. Aside from that, it retains the existing order.

In the case of Lix, the Batter is tricky to place in this classification. It's a skill that only directly affects one lemming, but can cause that lemming to have an effect on others, similar to the blocker. It's less permanent, so maybe just before the blocker?
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Nepster on July 29, 2018, 08:20:35 AM
Regarding the order of the skill groups:
1) As you are mainly concerned that "Movement Skills" and "Permanent Skills" are next to each other, and I am mainly concerned to keep all non-permanent skills in one block, I would suggest placing the "Movement Skills" directly after the "Permanent Skills".
2) I can see why you placed the "Killing Skills" between the "Contructive Skills" and "Destructive Skills": To put the bomber next to the destructive skills and the stoner next to the constructive skills. However I think the killing effect, i.e. the effect to the lemming, is more important. So I would like to keep them before the constructive skills, i.e. now directly after the "Movement Skills" (that likely end with the blocker).

Regarding the oder inside the groups:
1) I don't think of the permanent skills as directional skills. For me their use to pass (deadly) obstacles is far more important. And in that regard the current swimmer placement does not make so much sense. As I said climbers, floaters and gliders are for passing terrain obstacles, while swimmers and disarmers interact with gadgets.
2) Regarding of your three choices of movement skills, the last one WCJSB feels the most natural to me, but I, too, cannot pinpoint the reason as to why.

So merging Proxima's and namida's suggestion with my points above included, I get to the following order:
Climber, (Glider?), Floater, Glider, Swimmer, Disarmer, (Cloner?), Walker, Cloner, Jumper, Shimmier, Blocker, Bomber, Stoner, Platformer, Builder, Stacker, Fencer, Basher, Miner, Digger,

Comparisons:
1) L1 order: We swapped Blocker and Bomber, but kept the remaining order. Not perfect, but acceptable in my opinion.
2) Current NeoLemmix order: Swimmer, Walker and Cloner moved; blocker moved in front of bomber and stoner and the fencer switched with the basher. Both Proxima's and namida's suggestions included similar amounts of changes.
3) namida's suggestion: Basically the changes I mentioned above. The biggest change would be the reordering of the groups, but I hope I have kept the points important to namida and only modified the ones with "no huge preference". And I swapped bomber and stoner again, so that we group at least the stoner with the constructive skills.
4) Proxima's suggestion: Very close. I removed some of the question marks, but added other ones.
5) Lix order: The main order of "permanent-constructive-destructive" is the same and it shares a lot similarities with the current order (except for the placement of walker and jumper). It's main differences from the suggestions in this thread are: Permanent skills split the non-permanent ones and the killing skills are split up.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: namida on July 29, 2018, 08:39:45 AM
I should mention that I don't feel too strongly about any of this. My reply was more a "If I had to decide it now, this is what I'd do" than anything else. The only thing I am strongly in favor of is a consistent order between the player and editor.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Proxima on July 29, 2018, 12:21:14 PM
I'm happy with the order suggested in Nepster's above post. I strongly favour putting the glider after the floater, as it is a more complex modification of it. For the same reason, now that it's suggested, I agree with walker then cloner.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Simon on July 29, 2018, 02:08:15 PM
I am surprised that everybody sees the bomber as a killer and blocker-canceller first, and as a terrain remover second. If people feel so strongly about this, then keep blocker-bomber-stoner as in Nepster's previous post.

Walker is a universal canceller and should come either first, or immediately after permanents, okay.

-- Simon
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Nepster on July 29, 2018, 02:14:57 PM
I am surprised that everybody sees the bomber as a killer and blocker-canceller first, and as a terrain remover second.
I would guess that the timed bombers from L1 made them so annoying for terrain removal purposes, that we still don't group them with the destructive skills.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Simon on July 29, 2018, 02:18:11 PM
That would be the worst argument: Tradition. :lix-glare: But I'm sure the others have substantial arguments. No worries.

-- Simon
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: namida on July 31, 2018, 09:57:48 PM
I am surprised that everybody sees the bomber as a killer and blocker-canceller first, and as a terrain remover second. If people feel so strongly about this, then keep blocker-bomber-stoner as in Nepster's previous post.

Walker is a universal canceller and should come either first, or immediately after permanents, okay.

-- Simon

I'd think the question is - what's it used as more?

In older levels, following L1's example, indeed bombers were most often used for those purposes. However, in newer levels, that use doesn't appear to be as frequent, and they're used more often for terrain removal; for which they have several unique features - destroys in all directions, can destroy any direction of one-way walls without requiring the lemming to be moving in a specific direction, and can be used anywhere you can get a lemming to, unlike the others which require some ground to stand on (and NeoLemmix removing the timer, and having frame-control, helps a lot with this).
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: namida on May 30, 2020, 08:45:18 PM
Okay, so this died off without ever being implemented or specifically rejected.

Does anyone feel this is worth pursuing, or should we just leave the order as-is at this point?

No changes would be needed to existing content, thanks to the auto-generation of pickup skill icons in V12.7 and higher.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: Dullstar on May 31, 2020, 09:45:07 AM
While tradition is a weak argument, changing from what you're used to can be a bit irritating, so unless we can find a new layout that's a major improvement over what we already have, I don't think it makes sense to force users to go through the process of relearning the skill order.

Allowing users to configure a custom skill order could be an option, but there's also a question of how many people would actually use such a feature.
Title: Re: [SUGGESTION][ALL] Reorder skills in skill panel
Post by: namida on June 06, 2020, 09:02:38 PM
Okay so, that prompt only attracted one response, and that response wasn't in favor. I'm going to close this issue off then, and leave the skill order as-is.