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NeoLemmix => NeoLemmix Levels => In Development => Topic started by: namida on June 10, 2018, 10:26:42 PM

Title: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [100% - Preparing Release]
Post by: namida on June 10, 2018, 10:26:42 PM
Lemmings Plus VI has now been released; click here to go to the release topic. (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3981.0)

I've also added images of the release versions of all levels, to any posts in this topic that had in-development images. Some are barely changed (or completely unchanged), others are noticably different. :)


Note: This segment is the original contents of the first post, when this topic was first created. It's very out of date now.

Well, while I'm still not nearly as active as I once was, I have been finding the odd bit of spare time lately where I feel like making levels. So, I decided to start working on Lemmings Plus VI! :)

So... what to expect? Well, I noticed a common issue with my most recent packs - Omega II in particular - was that they're simply too hard. Of course, the flipside is that some people loved the challenge of them, too. Nonetheless, I've done plenty of harder packs lately, so for Lemmings Plus VI, I'm going to take a step back and make this one a bit easier (if I happen to come up with any particularly hard levels, I'll save them for a later pack, or maybe release them as a bonus pack).

That aside, I'm going to learn from what's happened with more or less every pack I've made from Lemmings Plus III onwards, and not aim for a ridiculously huge amount of levels. Instead, Lemmings Plus VI will be a smaller pack - perhaps 40 to 50 levels, I haven't really decided yet. When I feel like I've made enough levels, I'll decide how to divide it up into ranks and what total number of levels to have - at this stage, I'm not even attempting to sort the levels into ranks. (The primary reason I did so originally was, in fact, because of the music rotation - I'd feel that certain levels suit certain musics, and thus place levels accordingly. Lemmings Plus VI will continue LPIV and LPV's system of the music being tied to the graphic set rather than a rotation, so that isn't a problem here.)

Due to this smaller level count, I'm also likely only going to make three graphic sets for this one (although this is not final). Of these, one is nearing completion, while work on another has started but isn't very far yet. The third, I only have vague ideas of what kind of environment I'd like it to be, nothing specific.

As of this post, I've made 7 levels so far - five in the nearly-complete style, and two in the other one.


Current progress

Styles
- Note that I am creating these with a system of "If I need a new piece / object, I'll create it" rather than my previous "aim for a certain number of pieces / objects then make levels within those limitations". So I can't give "this style is X% complete" stats like I could with older packs.
- With that being said, I consider the styles more or less complete. Garden and Basement maybe need a few more terrain pieces.

Levels
- 80 of 80 total levels created so far
--- By rank: 20 Sane | 20 Loopy | 20 Manic | 20 Delirious
--- Style usage: 27 Bridge | 27 Garden | 26 Basement

Backroute Fixing
- No current known backroutes
- No current borderline cases
- No current talisman backroutes

Music
- Will be using the same music scheme as LPIV / LPV (ie: each graphic set has a couple of associated musics, which are chosen arbitrarily on a per-level basis)
- The musics will originate from the first three games in the Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney series
- Three musics for each graphic set have been chosen
- A potential candidate for final level music has been chosen, though it may be changed if a different final level is chosen

Trivia and teasers
- I entered an LPVI level into the current level design contest, keep an eye out for it. :)
- The once-per-rank level in LPVI will be a return to the more classic style of "same map, different skills / stats" seen in LPI, LPIII and LPO, rather than the more-unusual concepts for them tried in LPIV and LPV.
- The hardest level I've made so far (which is no longer The Highbridge), would likely be in mid-Spiky if it were inserted into Lemmings Plus Omega II.
- One of the demo levels (other than Rocky Road) has a Part II. You'll have to wait and see which one. ;)
- The first level made in the Bridge style (and first of all for LPVI) is The Highbridge, which can be seen in a post in this topic. The first level made in the Basement style is in the demo, Builderdash. The first level in the Garden style, "A Lost Tale", has not been revealed publicly, though the testers have seen it now.
- The first level of each rank, intentionally, uses the same graphic set as the last level of the rank.
- Garden1 is the most common music in the pack, at 11 levels. Excluding the final level music, Garden3 and Basement3 are all tied for least common, at 7 levels each.
- All but one of the Lemmings Plus VI levels with time limits are Bridge levels.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on June 10, 2018, 10:28:19 PM
Here's the first level I made for it. It's also probably the hardest of the levels I've made so far, and will likely end up being in the final rank.

"The Highbridge"
10 Lemmings, 9 to save
Spawn rate 50 (not locked)

10 climbers, 1 glider, 3 builders, 2 stackers, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 digger

Release version (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: GigaLem on June 10, 2018, 11:54:20 PM
This came in like an E3 announcement, and on top of that, I am loving the new graphic you just made for it.

Now about that whole difficulty thing you said for it, make an extra rank for it if you can.

Lastly, this is more of a me thing but um, for music. Please no more midis, at least none without sound fonts because there are some midis from LPOII that just was ear grading IMHO.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on June 11, 2018, 12:19:55 AM
Quote
Now about that whole difficulty thing you said for it, make an extra rank for it if you can.

Lastly, this is more of a me thing but um, for music. Please no more midis, at least none without sound fonts because there are some midis from LPOII that just was ear grading IMHO.

I'd rather not. The problem with making it as an additional rank, is that people often have a desire to complete entire packs. In the case of LPO2 for example, most people are able to complete the first two ranks, but don't have such luck with the last two; especially with late-Sharp where the difficulty gets crazy even by LPO2 standards. So, I'd rather this be a pack that an experienced (but not super-expert level) player has a reasonable chance of completing the entire pack. Then, the super-hard levels can be seperated into a bonus pack, or perhaps saved for if Lemmings Plus Omega III is ever a thing (don't hold your breath, though).

Very few of the LPV musics were of midi origin, although all the LPIV ones were. At any rate, all the musics for this one will be OGGs. ;) I won't say where they're from yet, although I'll say that similar to LPIV, the entire soundtrack will come from a single game - or at least, in this case, from a single series of games, with all musics used by LPVI coming from the same "generation" of entries in that series.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: 607 on June 11, 2018, 05:20:03 PM
Quote from: namida on June 11, 2018, 12:19:55 AM
At any rate, all the musics for this one will be OGGs. ;)
Aw. :P This is also more of a me thing, and Giga's probably more relevant than I, as I'm not a fan of NeoLemmix (I think it's really good, I just personally don't enjoy it)... but when I did use NeoLemmix, I made sure to only use .it's and .xm's. ;) I did use one midi, but I converted that.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on June 17, 2018, 06:07:39 AM
Reveal another graphic set?

Sure, why not.

I won't give much information on the level beyond it's name though, but I will say that this is LPVI's once-per-rank level. Also, the rocks are steel - I made sure there's a level that can go very early in the pack, that makes this very clear to the player. :) (Of course, Clear Physics Mode would reveal it anyway.) And the last thing I'll say - this level has identical terrain / objects in all its iterations; only the save requirement, skills, and (for one version) the spawn rate differ.

The name of the level is Rocky Road. I realised soon after creating the level that there was already a level in ONML with that title, but eh, it's hardly the first time a pack has re-used an official game level title. :P

Release version (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: GigaLem on June 17, 2018, 08:24:12 AM
Nice progress, though I think the Garden set could look better IMO then again this is early on. If you want to ask how should it be improved, feel free too ;)

I'm trying to brain storm an Idea for a forth tileset if you do make one and so far I thought of these

Quote
Rally - A Racing themed Graphic Set with Tires, Track pieces, gates, cones and the like
Gemstones - Stones of all shapes and colors other than the one in crystal, weather a cluster or clear cut necklace
Hospital - Beds, Monitors, Needles, Doctor Tools, and modern art you might see in certain hospitals
Military Base - Tanks, Training and Mine Fields, loads of weaponry, maybe a Tank for a Trap
Yarn - Strings of yarn, spools, sewing needles, patches of clothing, Buttons, and my favorite idea, a Sewing machine Trap
Palace - For this one, why not something elegant? The most beautiful looking castle set you can think of with chandeliers and what not. I know the Nicky Boum set already exits but why not something more..."Castlely"

I Hope this helps, this was the best that I could come up with, Jot these down if you want. Anyways I look forward to whatever next shows up on this topic :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on June 18, 2018, 03:59:56 AM
As usual, also, I'm always interested in hearing who'd like to do some testing - whether you're interested in "test the occasional level here and there", "test the pack as a whole before release", or both. Let me know via PM if you're interested. It may be a while before I send any test content yet, though, but always good to get a few people in mind. As usual - doesn't matter how skilled you are at Lemmings; feedback and replays from less-skilled players can be just as valuable sometimes (for example, in previous packs I've found less-skilled testers have often discovered backroutes the more-skilled players missed).

Quote
Nice progress, though I think the Garden set could look better IMO then again this is early on. If you want to ask how should it be improved, feel free too

You're always welcome to make suggestions, though it'll be up to me to decide whether or not I take them.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: GigaLem on June 18, 2018, 07:37:06 AM
So with the way your garden set looks right now, its a bit muddled. So here's my input
Dirt could more "Grainy" and less like a splotch of paint, unblurr it a bit too.
Grass, make it less blurry and more lively with the color pallet
If you want Rocks to be steel, Make the steel rock have a bit of a bedrock color to em and the non steel rock are way lighter
Background is honestly the worse, It's on the confusing side and  I think the BG should contrast with the terain so you could tell what's the sky and what's the terrain. Maybe instead of trippy flowers and green bits, Try a Blue sky with a picket fence and if possible a hedge behind the fence/
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: grams88 on June 18, 2018, 11:02:13 AM
That's good that they are more graphic sets getting made, I might maybe have a go at creating one sometime, I have a few ideas which might be okay but see what happens. I like the whole basing the ideas around other video games like sonic or superplex and many other video games.

I noticed Gigalem mentioned about a hospital set, there was a hospital set in Worms Armageddon which would look kind of cool as a lemmings set.

Good luck with it all Namida.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: Strato Incendus on June 18, 2018, 08:27:56 PM
Worms tilesets? Hell, yes! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on June 18, 2018, 10:46:20 PM
Quote
I like the whole basing the ideas around other video games like sonic or superplex and many other video games.

I certianly see how such tilesets appeal to some people, but there's plenty of other people creating those tilesets already.

The LPVI tilesets were originally intended to use alpha blending, too, to make them look better. However, it appears there's no intent to properly support alpha blending on terrain, so that had to be ditched. However - alpha blending already works perfectly fine on objects, so it's still in use there. :) (That's basically what I was getting at when I mentioned how "there are no sets making use of them" is because it isn't properly supported, rather than being a reason that proper support isnt' worthwhile.) If you look closely at the objects in the above level images, you might notice it. :)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on June 20, 2018, 01:45:34 AM
You may have noticed that the backgrounds so far, wouldn't really work well with vertical scrolling levels.

You may also have realised I probably thought about that already. ;)

"Peak Point"
40 lemmings, 30 to save
Release rate 70
No time limit
5 bombers, 5 blockers

Release version (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on June 20, 2018, 02:52:31 AM
So, demo. Always a concern sooner or later with my packs, right?

But I decided to go one step further this time. Instead of just having the final release pre-tested, I'm even having the demo looked over by testers - a few of whom have just received the first draft of it today. :) And of course, immediately after sending it out, I found a major backroute in one of the levels, so they've received a second draft too.

Demo will contain five levels, and two graphic sets (Bridge and Garden, of course). Since I'm not dividing the pack into ranks yet, I can't really say much about how many levels from which ranks, of course - but I'm making sure they span the difficulty range so far, fairly well. And of course, it will include one iteration of the once-per-rank level. :)

Shouldn't be too long before it's ready. Maybe a few days, but this does depend on how often I'm in the mood to work on Lemmings stuff (and have the time to do so).

===

Update: Got the first batch of replays back, and glad to report - no backroutes! :) The tester in question did solve two levels in a way that wasn't intended as such, but I'd consider both of these solutions acceptable nonetheless - one has similar complexity, the other is the same as the intended solution on the major details and differs only on some more-minor points.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on June 20, 2018, 10:26:47 PM
Alright. I'm pretty happy with the feedback; I had wondered whether these levels were a good enough set for the demo, but based on tester feedback I'm now convinced they are. :)

So, here you go! 5-level demo. :) Features three Bridge levels and two Garden levels. (And even the testers didn't get to see what the soundtrack was yet, so this will be a surprise even to them. ;) )

https://www.dropbox.com/s/apa7w3v59es3ct2/LPVI_Demo.zip?dl=1

Please note that the styles may be subject to further changes, so I strongly advise against creating your own levels using them at this stage, and doubly so against releasing such levels.

On a side note, one likely talisman will be for the first level in this demo: Complete the level without using any blockers.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on June 22, 2018, 11:00:15 PM
Some things I'd be interested to hear from anyone who plays the demo:

1. Regarding the Garden graphic set, do you still feel after actually playing that the background is distracting / interferes with visibility? I'm considering making it a bit darker, though I still want it to look nice.
2. How do you feel about the Bridge set, mechanics-wise?
3. What's your thoughts on the overall difficulty? In particular, does Swampflower seem to be too hard? (Keeping in mind that I'm wanting to tone down the difficulty a bit compared to LPV and LPO2 - somewhere around LPIII or LPIV's difficulty is ideal. However, also keep in mind that Swampflower will likely be very close to the end of the pack, though not the final level.)
4. Replays are always welcome. I'm especially interested in solutions to the 4th level (A Lemming Is Born), as so far it's turned out to have many different, yet hard enough to be acceptable, solutions. :)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on June 28, 2018, 11:25:58 AM
No new levels to report lately - haven't been in a level-making mood the last few days.

I did, however, come up with rank names... but I won't reveal them yet. I did also start on the 3rd graphic set, but again, no details yet...

Also, there's now a level on the "might get cut for being too difficult" list. According to a tester I sent it to, it's "a little bit harder than Swampflower", which was already somewhat pushing (but not quite exceeding) the limits I had in mind. Don't worry, even if it gets cut from LPVI, you'll see this level sooner or later - either as part of an eventual LPO3, or if that's not likely to ever happen, I'll probably just make a bonus pack of some kind with cut levels (and if need be to make it a decent size, some all-new really hard levels). If the level does stay in, expect it to be the 2nd or 3rd to last level (as that's generally where I try to put the hardest level, although in practice it doesn't always work out that way - not doing so was a concious decision in LPIII, but in any other pack where that didn't happen, it was intended to but just didn't work out that way, either due to me misjudging the difficutly of some levels (eg. LPIV, where I overestimated "Overclocked Lemming" and underestimated "Artifically Sweetened"), or due to mechanics changes affecting the difficulty (eg. LPI, where "Death Row" is by far the hardest level now, but that wasn't the case at the time of release)).
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: GigaLem on June 28, 2018, 11:21:32 PM
Quote from: namida on June 22, 2018, 11:00:15 PM
Some things I'd be interested to hear from anyone who plays the demo:

1. Regarding the Garden graphic set, do you still feel after actually playing that the background is distracting / interferes with visibility? I'm considering making it a bit darker, though I still want it to look nice.
2. How do you feel about the Bridge set, mechanics-wise?
3. What's your thoughts on the overall difficulty? In particular, does Swampflower seem to be too hard? (Keeping in mind that I'm wanting to tone down the difficulty a bit compared to LPV and LPO2 - somewhere around LPIII or LPIV's difficulty is ideal. However, also keep in mind that Swampflower will likely be very close to the end of the pack, though not the final level.)
4. Replays are always welcome. I'm especially interested in solutions to the 4th level (A Lemming Is Born), as so far it's turned out to have many different, yet hard enough to be acceptable, solutions. :)

I'll awnser 1 and 2 since I haven't beat the other three levels
1.The BG is just very ill fitted for me, if its based on a garden, try what I suggested. A picket fence with a giant hedge behind it.
2.Bridge set is really good looking honestly, if I had to suggest more pieces for it. try something based on the golden gate bride. Why not make a locked exit based on a toll booth too?

Your soundtrack selection is very easy on the ears. I like it a lot!
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: nin10doadict on June 29, 2018, 01:27:20 AM
Haven't tried the levels yet, but I did peek at the music.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on July 01, 2018, 12:09:54 PM
I think the Basement tile set has finally progressed enough that I can show it off.

"Builderdash!"
5 lemmings, save 2
Spawn rate 35
1 climber, 1 floater, 3 builders

This is a pretty easy level. And I'm probably going to replace that ugly rotated plank near the top exit with something nicer-looking, once I make a suitable piece.

Release version (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: IchoTolot on July 01, 2018, 12:30:24 PM
There are 2 things currently feeling not quite right to me about this tileset by looking at the picture:

- The background makes it somewhat hard to see a bunch of stuff and the stones look a bit weird let's say - more like a sewer than a basement. I feel this can still be optimised by quite a bit.

Quote
near the top exit

- Is the exit these 2 blue things (flags?) on the wall? ??? I must admit I can't really tell :P
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on July 01, 2018, 12:35:54 PM
The background is meant to look like a wall made of wood; but at the same time, dark enough to not interfere with the actual level elements. I do need to improve that still.

The exit is supposed to look like a hole in the wall, with the blue flames to make it stand out (as the red flames are deadly).
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: GigaLem on July 01, 2018, 08:16:27 PM
Quote from: namida on July 01, 2018, 12:35:54 PM
The background is meant to look like a wall made of wood; but at the same time, dark enough to not interfere with the actual level elements. I do need to improve that still.

The exit is supposed to look like a hole in the wall, with the blue flames to make it stand out (as the red flames are deadly).

Maybe try household doors?
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on July 01, 2018, 10:49:42 PM
Quote from: GigaLem on July 01, 2018, 08:16:27 PM
Quote from: namida on July 01, 2018, 12:35:54 PM
The background is meant to look like a wall made of wood; but at the same time, dark enough to not interfere with the actual level elements. I do need to improve that still.

The exit is supposed to look like a hole in the wall, with the blue flames to make it stand out (as the red flames are deadly).

Maybe try household doors?

That's not a bad idea in theory; but... no, wait, I think I can think of a way to make that work. Will need some creative use of objects in not-entirely-intended ways, but this graphic set already does that with the flickering around the flames. (I can't add entirely new features this time, so I feel it's my responsibility to use existing ones in new ways instead. :P)

EDIT: Now that I think about it, the idea I had in mind limits me to one exit per level if I want it to work properly... But I can think of a way to modify Builderdash to only need one exit, so... (And I wouldn't be too worried about losing Builderdash in the first place, anyway. It's not really special in any way, just a fairly generic simple puzzle for the early ranks.)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on July 02, 2018, 01:13:38 AM
Made a lot of tweaks. I don't think the exit even needs further modification (except maybe on the flames), with the new background change.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: Strato Incendus on July 02, 2018, 10:08:37 AM
I'd suggest you keep both types of bricks available for the background; the second one looks brighter, so it's easier to see things, but it's also just more plain.

Those dirty-yellow bricks from the first image were a lot creepier, fitting the mood much better! ;)

The exit is fine as it is; a good way to remind the player again that lemmings are actually mice... :D
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on July 05, 2018, 08:31:31 PM
This is Builderdash as it currently stands. Note the newly-added spider web terrain; as well as the bookshelf no longer being hollow (which was very hard to pick up on visually, and didn't really have much level design advantage).

Also, the steel blocks around the top, and the flooring, are actually steel now. They weren't before due to an oversight; not that you could tell that from a screenshot.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on July 07, 2018, 10:58:33 PM
I made a new background for the Garden set. I'll probably add a bit more to this background eventually.

Here's Swampflower (from the demo), with the new background... and a few other minor decorative changes (nothing that impacts the solution).

Release version (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: GigaLem on July 07, 2018, 11:14:18 PM
Now that is an improvement!
Visually appealing and easy to tell what's what :thumbsup:
I'd probably blur the bg a tad just to be safe but I like this change
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on July 07, 2018, 11:17:13 PM
Here's how it looks on another level I made recently.

"Secret Garden"
Save 28 of 30
SR 50
No time limit
2 climbers, 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 3 platformers, 2 builders, 1 basher, 2 miners.

And yes, that thing between the first and second flowers on the second clump of terrain is indeed a trap - specifically, a single-use trap.

Release version (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on July 08, 2018, 10:18:36 PM
I can't see myself making a 4th graphic set for LPVI, so it's likely just going to be these three.

Of course, just six musics (plus one for the final level) might get boring... so I've decided to select an additional, third music for each graphic set. :) They'll be from the same source (Ace Attorney 1, 2 or 3), of course. I've only decided on the third one for Basement so far, though.


Anyone ask for zombies, and yet another alternate Bridge background?

"The Bridge To Heck"
30 lemmings*, save 28
SR 50
2 climbers, 1 bomber, 2 platformers, 2 builders, 6 bashers, 1 cloner
:tal-silver: Save 30 lemmings

* Excludes clones and zombies

Release version (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on July 14, 2018, 11:03:45 PM
I've updated the demo to include three more levels (two of which are in the Basement style, which previously wasn't in the demo), as well as ensure it has the latest version of all levels it already had.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on July 18, 2018, 01:16:37 AM
Just hit 40 levels!

Here's the 40th level to be created. :)

Release version (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on July 18, 2018, 05:22:23 AM
Time to reveal the rank names.

From easiest to hardest, the rank names are Sane, Loopy, Manic and Delirious.

Still no final decision on how many levels per rank. Possible options I'm considering are:
- 15 levels per rank (60 total)
- 10 levels for Sane, 15 each for Loopy and Manic, 20 for Delirious (60 total)
- 15 each for Sane and Loopy, 20 each for Manic and Delirious (70 levels)
- 20 levels per rank (80 total)

At the current time, the number of levels I have that are suitable for each rank is very unbalanced. For Sane, I only have five levels (two of which are included in the demo - Peak Point and Builderdash). For Loopy, 9 levels (three in the demo - Rocky Road Part II, Dareful Drop and Work In Progress). For Manic, I have by far the most, at 15 levels (including Secret Garden and A Lemming Is Born); and finally, for Delirious, 11 levels (including Swampflower). In particular, Sane has very few, which lead me towards the possible 10/15/15/20 structure. If I wanted to go for 70 or 80 levels, I could make this (for 70) 10/20/20/20 or use 15/15/20/20 again, or (for 80) 10/20/20/30 or 15/20/20/25. Another possibility, of course, could be giving Manic instead of Delirious the most levels. There were no complaints about the uneven rank sizes in LPO2, but would having an over-the-place order like 15/20/25/20 be going too far?

Another thing I have to take into account is the level entered into the current contest. This means I can't publicly release LPVI until that level gets eliminated, though I would think it's fair game to release LPVI privately to testers anytime once the contest enters the playing phase (and if need be, I could always just release it to them with the contest level removed). This sets a likely timeline of a public release no earlier than mid-September. This means I've got quite a bit of time to work on levels, and thus, a higher level count is possible. And we're nowhere near the point yet where levels are starting to be filler-y. :D
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: nin10doadict on July 18, 2018, 05:44:45 AM
I think uneven ranks are fine. I did 30/25/20/15 for Casualemmings and didn't get any sort of complaint about it.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on July 20, 2018, 12:02:32 AM
"Catch Me If You Can?" (position not yet determined)
10 lemmings, must save 9
Spawn rate 85, locked

1 climber, 1 bomber, 2 platformers, 2 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger

Interestingly, this level has been solved by four testers; all four came up with a different solution, all of which I'd consider acceptable. My solution is different again.

Release version (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on July 20, 2018, 03:24:05 AM
I've decided to officially make the target for Lemmings Plus VI, 80 levels.

I'm most likely going to go for a 15/20/20/25 or 15/20/25/20 level spread, but I'm not completely ruling out 20/20/20/20 at this stage. It all depends on how difficult the levels I come up with are.

Currently, I have:
Sane: 7 levels
Loopy: 10 levels
Manic: 16 levels
Delirious: 11 levels
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on July 20, 2018, 10:10:50 PM
So, I've found that while Bridge and Garden are fairly well distributed throughout the pack, there's a stronger concentration of Basement levels in the earlier parts than the later parts. Clearly, I need to come up with some more hard Basement levels... (Also, Loopy is a bit short on Garden levels, but I'm sure that'll be easier to fix.)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on July 24, 2018, 05:07:53 AM
And, we've hit 50 levels!

Level #50 is much more interesting than level #40 was. :)

"Wacky Way"
Save 32 of 36
Spawn rate 73
1 bomber, 1 platformer, 6 builders, 2 bashers

Release version (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on July 26, 2018, 07:42:13 AM
So, despite the late start, Basement has well and truly caught up to the other styles; with the counts now being 18 each for Bridge and Basement, and 17 for Garden.

The levels in each rank have also somewhat evened out. Sane is still a bit behind at only 9 levels, but now Loopy and Delirious have 14 each, and Manic 16. I've decided at this point that I will go for a 20 levels per rank structure, rather than 15/20/20/25 or 15/20/25/20.

Also, I added one more level to the demo, "High Stakes". :)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on August 01, 2018, 09:54:50 PM
This level might look rather plain, but solution-wise it's very interesting.

I was a bit unsure about this level, so I sent it to all testers. So far, two have managed to solve it, finding four different solutions between them. I myself knew of two solutions, one of which was different from any of the tester solutions. So in short - yet another level with many different, yet acceptable, solutions. :D

"Lemmings For All!"
Save 20 of 20
Spawn rate 80
No time limit
2 climbers, 1 blocker, 1 platformer, 1 builder, 1 basher, 2 miners, 1 digger

This level is placed in mid-Delirious.

Release version (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on August 05, 2018, 06:08:15 AM
Lemmings Plus VI has now hit 60 levels!!!

Here's the 60th level.

"Reticence"
Save 28 of 30
Spawn rate 65
No time limit
2 climbers, 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 1 builder, 3 bashers

It's not a particularly noteworthy level otherwise, though it does have two fairly different solutions.

Release version (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic
Post by: namida on August 06, 2018, 07:30:23 PM
While Manic may have been in the lead for much of LPVI's development, Delirious has taken the lead - it's now just two levels away from being full. (Of course, it's possible some levels might get bumped down to Manic.)

Interestingly, despite having only two level slots remaining, Delirious still lacks a first level. I just don't feel any of the levels I've made so far for it are suitable to be its first level. (Manic has a somewhat similar predicament with its final level, for that matter.)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [80.00%]
Post by: namida on August 08, 2018, 07:55:57 PM
There haven't been any new levels for a couple of days, but that's just because I was busy fixing backroutes in existing levels, no need to panic. :)

There are a couple of levels that put me in a really tricky spot. They have/had a solution that's a clear backroute, yet at the same time, had lots of alternate (acceptable) solutions I liked. The only ways I can think of to block the backroutes, would also break many of these alternate solutions. (Although on one of them, I just thought of another way that might not break anything, while writing this post.)

In one case, I went ahead and made the fix (this is also the one I just thought of a better fix for). The other one, I'm really not sure whether to change or not... I initially was okay to accept the solution in question when only one person had found it, but now it's turning out to be the most common solution, and one tester did mention it felt too easy (as well as similar to other levels)... :/
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [83.75%]
Post by: namida on August 10, 2018, 07:05:05 PM
Quote from: namida on August 01, 2018, 09:54:50 PM
"Lemmings For All!"
Save 20 of 20
Spawn rate 80
No time limit
2 climbers, 1 blocker, 1 platformer, 1 builder, 1 basher, 2 miners, 1 digger

So, this level. As much as I loved the variety of solutions that were emerging from it, there was one particular solution that was a bit of a problem. It was becoming a bit too commonly found, and more so, those who found it invariably commented that the level was relatively easy (while those who found other solutions were thinking it was well-placed).

So I made a slightly changed version, but with the catch - "there's no guarantee I'm going to use this modified version, I might keep the original".

Fortunately, it's looking like even this version still has a decent variety of solutions - so far, two testers have re-solved it; one found the intended route, one found another alternate route. I myself also confirmed one further alternate route.

There's no change to the skillset from the original version, but there's now 25 lemmings instead of 20 (it still requires 100%).

Release version (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [87.50%]
Post by: namida on August 11, 2018, 09:25:10 PM
We've hit 70 levels (and all remaining empty slots are in Sane; though it's possible to shuffle levels around if need be), so the first (near-)complete test version has now been sent to testers. :)

It's getting closer now!
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [87.50%]
Post by: nin10doadict on August 12, 2018, 03:27:08 PM
...I find it funny that the easy levels are the ones that you've ended up making last. I have a sneaking suspicion that good easy levels are harder for some people to make... :D
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [87.50%]
Post by: namida on August 12, 2018, 09:51:16 PM
Quote from: nin10doadict on August 12, 2018, 03:27:08 PM
...I find it funny that the easy levels are the ones that you've ended up making last. I have a sneaking suspicion that good easy levels are harder for some people to make... :D

That is part of it, but I also decided to deliberately keep some early slots open, so that if needed, I can use them to add tutorial levels for tricks used in some of the harder levels. There's also some degree of leniency here - several early-Loopy levels would work just as well in late-Sane, so I can always move things around a bit if I do end up making another harder level.


Anyway, I've got two sets of replays back from testers now - one covering all of Manic and Delirious, and one covering half of Manic + all of Delirious. I haven't watched the latter yet (a bit burnt out, will check them later today), but the former alone has unearthed 9 backroutes, two borderline cases, and three (non-backroute) new alternate solutions; plus a graphical oddity in one level. :D I likely won't get around to making any fixes until a bit later in the week, though - likely to have some busy days coming up, plus there's little point rushing since I'll need to wait until the current contest ends anyway.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [87.50%]
Post by: namida on August 13, 2018, 08:32:45 PM
Now that I've actually watched those sets (and a third, which doesn't overlap the other two much - it has a few Manic replays and one from Delirious, but it's mostly Sane and Loopy), even more backroutes, yay - including that someone actually managed to backroute a Sane level! (Though I suppose it's to be expected this will happen occasionally with easier levels once they start being "easy puzzles" rather than "any way you like X-of-everything levels".)

Aside from that, a few very interesting (acceptable) alternate solutions have popped up too. :D As ya'll may have noticed (especially the testers), I'm being a lot more lenient with what's an acceptable solution or not in LPVI - whereas with LPV and LPO2 I often insisted "it must be the exact intended solution, or at most, a very slight variation of it", with LPVI my standard is generally "as long as the solution isn't significantly easier than the intended one, it's fine" on most levels - there are a few levels where I might expect a specific trick to be used, or even an entire specific solution, but most levels are a lot more open-ended than in previous recent packs from me.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [87.50%]
Post by: namida on August 19, 2018, 08:30:37 AM
So, I've gotten through most of the replays that have been sent from the first test version now. Had a lot of backroutes, a few very interesting acceptable alternate solutions, and even a couple of potential talisman candidates, pop up. This coming week I should be able to get the second test version ready, during which I'll probably try to fill out some more of Sane. I have identified one level in particular that perhaps needs an easier level to showcase some of the tricks of.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [88.75%]
Post by: namida on August 24, 2018, 02:49:57 AM
First new level in a while. :D

"Hold It!"
Loopy 2
Save 20 of 20
Spawn rate 90
1 blocker, 2 builders, 1 fencer, 1 miner

(Note: The lemmings start facing to the left in this level.)

Release version (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [90.00%]
Post by: namida on August 24, 2018, 05:21:08 AM
Second test version has just been sent out to testers. This new test version has backroute fixes on 12 levels (one of which was a talisman backroute only), two levels with miscellaneous changes, one new talisman on an existing level, two entirely new levels, and heaps of level reordering; compared to the previous test version.

So far, although several levels got hugely changed from their initial form, there's also only been a single level that's been cut entirely. :D The cut was more to do with quality (and necessity, given it was partially a tutorial level that ended up no longer being important due to changes to other levels) than difficulty, too.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [91.25%]
Post by: nin10doadict on August 24, 2018, 04:04:42 PM
Is looking good so far.
I think I'm getting a rough idea of the difficulty from what you've posted, as I think I see how to do "Hold it!" just by looking at it. That is, assuming they start out going left...
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [91.25%]
Post by: namida on August 24, 2018, 08:05:09 PM
Quote from: nin10doadict on August 24, 2018, 04:04:42 PM
Is looking good so far.
I think I'm getting a rough idea of the difficulty from what you've posted, as I think I see how to do "Hold it!" just by looking at it. That is, assuming they start out going left...

They do. Edited the above post to clarify that (as well as add an accurate position, now that I've decided on it).
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [93.75%]
Post by: namida on August 25, 2018, 09:26:17 PM
The demo has been updated with the latest versions of all levels (off the top of my head, only Secret Garden has changed, but I could be wrong), as well as to reflect the order the demo levels (currently) are in in the full game.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [93.75%]
Post by: namida on August 29, 2018, 03:20:58 AM
As I've withdrawn it from the contest, but of course it's public anyway by now, I've updated the demo to include Tight Schedule. No other changes in the new update.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [93.75%]
Post by: namida on August 29, 2018, 03:39:06 AM
All currently-known backroutes have been fixed, including one that I skipped over fixing for the second test version because I couldn't think of a way to fix it without breaking the intended solution - in the end, I found a way that doesn't even break the intended solution replay, let alone the solution itself. :D

Current plan of action: I want test version 3 to have all 80 levels, so I need to make those last five Sane levels (or maybe Loopy levels and demote a few others, if need be). Currently, Lemmings Plus VI does not have a single case of two levels in a row with the same graphic set. If I want to keep this, assuming no reordering (which is a very strong assumption though, and very likely some reordering will happen), I cannot create any further Basement levels, as every remaining empty slot is next to at least one Basement level.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [100% - In Final Touchups/Testing]
Post by: namida on August 29, 2018, 09:30:24 PM
Just made the 80th level, which means at this point, no more levels remain to be created. :D

The 3rd test version will be sent to testers later today (EDIT: it's been sent). The jump from the first to second test version already showed a huge reduction in number of backroutes found, so I suspect that - aside from the possibility of some arising in the new levels - there isn't much backrouting left to do. The difficulty curve likely still needs a bit of work, but it's much better now than it was at first. :)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [100% - In Final Touchups/Testing]
Post by: namida on September 01, 2018, 10:13:10 AM
While I haven't got a huge amount of replays back so far; only two levels have had backroutes so far in the latest test version. :D

So, I'd say we're pretty close now. Chances are there's still a couple more backroutes to stamp out (there's a few levels in particular that are somewhat hard to believe would be backroute-proof just yet), but at this point, it's mostly a matter of finalizing the level ordering - I do think it still needs a few tweaks, and I also got a fair bit of feedback regarding that from the second test version, but didn't yet act on most of it (there is one level I moved).
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [100% - In Final Touchups/Testing]
Post by: namida on September 02, 2018, 11:26:16 PM
I've sent out a 4th test version earlier today. Most of the levels seem pretty solid now, so this will likely be the last test version, and a release can probably be expected sometime this week. (However, this could change of course if I get really busy, or if a lot of backroutes suddenly come up, or if a tester specifically asks for more time, etc. It's definitely not a concrete release date, just a current estimate. The actual release date will be announced in the form of the pack actually being released.)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [100% - In Final Touchups/Testing]
Post by: namida on September 03, 2018, 08:16:46 AM
Recent backroutes seem to be confined to four levels - Manic 4, Delirious 10, Delirious 16 and Delirious 19. Of these, Manic 4 was a new addition in a recent test version update, so it hasn't had much time to undergo de-backrouting compared to the other levels; and Delirious 10 hasn't had new backroutes in a while now. Delirious 16 has also had no new backroutes since the latest update, but it's a bit soon to rely on that just yet.

(But as an example of this: Fixed a new backroute on Delirious 19, accidentally brought back an old one in the process.)
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [100% - In Final Touchups/Testing]
Post by: namida on September 06, 2018, 06:49:19 AM
I think at this point, it's probably safe to assume Manic 4 and Delirious 10 are pretty solid now. Only two levels left to backroute-proof and it's pretty much go time. :D

EDIT: And Delirious 16 seems to be solid as well, now.
Title: Re: Lemmings Plus VI - Development Topic [100% - In Final Touchups/Testing]
Post by: namida on September 06, 2018, 11:34:24 PM
Alright, the only tester who was still finding backroutes on Delirious 19 has finally been "forced" into the intended solution (or at least, an acceptable variation of it) instead.

I'm going to start preparing for release now. Assuming no emergencies / urgent work-related matters / new backroutes / etc come up, expect a release by the end of the day (in my timezone, where it's currently about 11:30 AM).