Lemmings Forums
Lemmings Boards => Lemmings Main => Topic started by: Nihilist Comedy Hour on January 17, 2018, 05:31:22 PM
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Hey y'all. I'm a transplant from the speedrunning world. A while back, I started working on speedrunning the original Lemmings. You can basically see what I've got up so far here:
https://www.speedrun.com/lemmings/full_game
So, because of how data is sort of cataloged on this site, I am running in to some difficulties in regarding how I need to split up the various platforms. Basically, because each port has a different number of levels, some levels switched out, or levels in different orders, setting up the full individual level leaderboards is proving to be a bit difficult at the moment. However, the 120 levels for Amiga/DOS/AtariST are up and should all be completely accurate as of now. It's unclear to me know because of the levels available on any given port as to whether I can get up all levels accurately for all ports on one page, or if I'll have to split the game page into more than one piece to properly account for all levels that can be run.
In any case, I'd like to invite y'all to submit times if you are interested. Gameplay must be recorded (ask, it's pretty easy to do). Additionally, games can be played via emulation for obscure platforms given that said emulations emulate the game accurately. And any feedback is appreciated.
I've already completed Fun and Tricky in terms of racing those 30 level packets. I haven't added my best individual times yet, but plan to do so soon.
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So the ZX Spectrum and Amstrand CPC appear to share the same 60 Levels as one another. About 36-46 of the levels are redundant (can hopefully suss through that tonight). Once I figure out which of those levels are missing, I should be able to add them, as well as Full-Game run for these platforms called "All 60 Levels (ZX/CPC)" and that should take care of those two ports and make them good to go. That's assuming they are actually different levels, and not duplicates with different names. Will look into more this evening.
SNES has 5 "Sunsoft Levels," which should be easy to add the additional 5 levels as their own thing. It also appears 2 player is on SNES/Genesis but I"m not sure if those are co-op levels, and thus have not integrated any sort of co-op runs into the boards yet.
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Very interesting. Gronkling attempted a TAS of Genesis Lemmings, but after making it halfway through, he put it on hold indefinitely.
The DOS version should be most popular, it's most widespread and reasonably easy to run in DOSBox.
Instead of nuking at end of stage, you should hit ESC once enough lems are saved. This still counts as a won level and skips the nuke anim. Otherwise, you seem to have a detailed grasp of the mechanics, very nice.
https://www.twitch.tv/nihilistcomedyhour
You allow any number of DOSBox cycles. That's probably the wisest decision for cycles.
I speedrun Jazz Jackrabbit (https://www.speedrun.com/jj1) and the DOSBox timing across host platforms can differ substantially, even if one agrees on a fixed cycle count. Inside a level, there's no difference, but the maps load at different speed. Very strange, and I haven't completely investigated. Even the Dosbox config file can be identical and yet get different results on a Windows machine and a Linux machine.
I didn't know this in late 2016, I've measured old runs and we agreed that 40,000 cycles would come closest to existing runs from 2014. In hindsight, maybe it would have been smarter to allow arbitrary cycles. Secret Agent and Lemmings suggests max cycles. Keen 1, Keen 4 and some other DOS games don't mention anything at all.
-- Simon
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The fastest platform would definitely be NeoLemmix, which is our own custom engine we play Lemmings packs on, but that would likely be cheating for speedrunning and would be quite boring.
I agree with Simon here, DOS Lemmings seems to be the most popular version of Lemmings. I would recommend using that version.
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Well, Lemmings for Win (1995) has a fast forward button, which seems to be blazingly fast on modern machines (seems only usable to finish level off if all necessary assignments have been made). It's missing some levels compared to the DOS version as well.
Edit: If you are dexterous enough with pause and fast forward, there seems to be the possibility and worthwhile to use fast forward even before the last assignment in some cases. Apart from that the interesting thing about a RTA run would be that you look to make the last necessary assignment as early as possible rather than what would be fastest with normal speed.
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@Simon Lemmings seems like one of the more interesting TAS games because even the tools don't eliminate the sheer calculus. So itself seems like a competitive challenge even as a TAS (which I guess all TAS's are but). With TAS the optimal thing to do is always increase release rate by 99 and play in that manner (which would clearly be impossible for a human).
With DOSBox, setting the cycles can be quite painful for games that don't have internal timing systems, whereas you can run the processor as a simulated dead stop, or as fast as your actual computer processor can allow it. However, games like Lemmings (and some other MS-DOS games I've run thus far) have an internal timer which limits the speed the game can operate, no matter how many cycles you give it. For gives like this, it becomes however many cycles you need to eliminate the lag (because it won't go faster).
Regarding hitting the ESC instead of nuking. THANKS! for that heads up. Now I'm actually sort of torn. I was going to use beginning of level until count hits 0 (and use the frame 0 appears as the end time). If you can, in effect, play the round, have 20 lemmings left, and then hit EXT, and the next screen just goes to the "Level Complete" page, then I'm going to have to make a decision; require Remaining counter to hit zero, or end time on another frame... presumable the first frame that the victory screen level appears. I'll play around with this later.
I guess I should probably ask if there has been or was any sort of Lemmings speedrunning up to this point... if there have been established rules on the matter in the past, I'd go with that. If not, I wouldn't mind some input from y'all regarding what you guys think is best.
@Colorful Arty I'm familiar with NeoLemmix a bit. Just by how speedrun.com is set up in general though, NeoLemmix runs couldn't make it onto the original game page. In essence, I'd have to create a new page for the NeoLemmix software (which I may be willing to do in the future, because I realize that could open up custom levels and the like to speedrunning). However, I still got 2 Xmas Lemmings, and Oh No More Lemmings to get through first.
@forestidia86 I haven't played the '95 Version yet. I would accept a run (of what I understand to be 116 levels for whatever reason), though it'd be a category of its own. I'd also have to spend sometime to make sure all the levels are the same or not, or which ones or the same or are new, and what order the levels are in. Will look into that some next.
In other news though: https://www.speedrun.com/lemmings/individual_levels
I've completed the individual levels list so far... which includes the 120 originals, the 12 additional from ZX/CPC releases, 5 Sunsoft for SNES, 60 additional levels for Genesis (I also painstakingly went through all Genesis levels, and separated the exclusive levels from the copies). So those should be good to run, as of now, more or less. I haven't looked yet, but I'm assuming SMS/GameGear is the same original 120 levels as Amiga/DOS/ST, but not 100% sure on that yet, so will check that one next.
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Well, Lemmings for Win (1995) has a fast forward button, which seems to be blazingly fast on modern machines (seems only usable to finish level off if all necessary assignments have been made). It's missing some levels compared to the DOS version as well.
:laugh: :laugh: Yes the fast forward on Winlems is hilarious. 10 minutes passes in probably about 5 seconds. If it were possible to set up a program to solve the levels for you, maybe it could be done that way; in which case would make it the most ridiculous speed run of all time.
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Wow, that was some hard work :lem-shocked:
I have a few corrections, though...
For all four special graphics levels (A Beast of a Level, MENACING, What an awesome level, A BeastII of a Level), the Genesis versions are different enough to be considered separately.
010 Smile if you love lemmings is called "5 miles if you love lemmings" on Genesis (but is the same level).
026 Nightmare on Lem Street and 026a The Great Lemming Caper are the same level with different names.
Genesis 034 The ascending pillar scenario is the same level as DOS 037 Been there, seen it, done it.
076 Mary Poppins' Land and 076a Umbrella land are the same level.
102 The Far Side and 102a The Other Side are the same level.
The SNES Sunsoft levels are all the same as levels from the Genesis version. From memory, I think this is the right order:
Sunsoft 1 = 177 Two heads are better
Sunsoft 2 = 179 I am A.T.
Sunsoft 3 = 150 Final impediment
Sunsoft 4 = 149 Private room available
Sunsoft 5 = 120a Lemmings' Ark
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Since you asked... the 2-player levels are competitive, not co-op. Each player has a colour-coded exit; you score for lemmings of either colour entering your own exit (so it's advantageous to steal enemy lemmings if possible), and the player who saves the most lemmings wins the round. I don't think it makes sense to include them.
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I agree that NeoLemmix should be treated as a separate game for archiving purposes, but I don't think it would be boring. The ability to make timeskips changes the gameplay drastically; you now have to plan a solution that makes the best use of this ability, and execute it well. Flopsy has had a go at running the entire game in NL (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeJsVX6nMdQ), but his time (over 2 hours) could be improved substantially. I keep telling myself that one day I'll have a go at bettering it :P
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Here are the unique levels in SMS Lemmings:
020 SEGA One
022 Go for it!
026 SEGA Two
044 MENACING! (this is not the same level as DOS 044)
051 Sixes Not!
055 SEGA Three
075 What an AWESOME level (again, not the same as the DOS level)
081 SEGA Four
090 SEGA Five
099 SEGA One (this is a harder version of the earlier SEGA One, not the same level)
102 SEGA Two
103 SEGA Three
107 Stepping Stones (not the same as the DOS level)
108 SEGA Four
112 Nearly There...
119 SEGA Five
Also, SMS 111 With a twist of lemming please is the same level as DOS 081 Feel the heat. The rest of the levels are the same as DOS.
I don't know too much about Game Gear, but I believe it has overall the same levels as the NES version, not SMS.
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Here (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1467.msg40138#msg40138) is a post by Leo with a list to all Winlemm (1995) levels (original as well as ONML).
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@Proxima Oh my thanks! :thumbsup:
So the four special graphics I left as is (each level is split into subcategories for each platform, since they all essentially play slightly different). Since the numbers and names are the same, I'll leave them, since someone running the Genesis version of that level wouldn't be compared to someone running the same level on a different platform. I merged the other four together and try to make it straightforward, and merged the SNES sunloft levels. I haven't added SMS yet (do you know if SMS has the same 120 levels as the original outside the 666 level?) but will add it soon.
I saw over 2 hours at first thinking, how the hell did he do that?! Then I saw the NeoLemmix, and I was like... oh okay lol.
My estimation on the DOS version is that it probably couldn't be done in less than 5 hours.
I did Fun originally in 56:48, but while I was doing all this work today on the boards, I came across someone beating my record.
Mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0n2g7CCd3U&t=191s
New WR posted 2 days ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg5sUosg4TQ&t=1947s 42:45!!!!
So if perfect execution can drop Fun down 14 more minutes from me (RIP me), possible that the whole thing could be done relatively quickly.
But yeah, any other info about the other platforms and their differences in levels would be super helpful is anyone knows that stuff off hand! Thanks for those corrections for the levels.
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On another note, I think I can get all ports until 1997 on the same board for sure, and possibly also the GBC (haven't tested that one yet for levels and such). The PlayStation releases and other later releases I imagine will have be handled slightly different, but I'm sort of worrying about those last.
And I'm gonna work on them SMS levels, THANKS!
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I don't know too much about Game Gear, but I believe it has overall the same levels as the NES version, not SMS.
Aside from a smaller segment of the level area being visible on-screen at a time, there is no obvious differences between the Master System and Game Gear versions. I don't know for sure that there are no very subtle differences though.
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Oops, I was mixing up the Game Boy and Game Gear :P
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SMS Levels Uploaded; except the two there were cases of Same name and Same # as original. I'm going to leave those be those be for now because they have separate leaderboards on the specific level's page (you can click each level).
At some point, I will finish figuring out what all possible categories might be for full-game stuff. That will allow me to actually assign the individual platforms involved to those specific categories (as well to each of one those specific levels.... yea.... :'()
So, on another note. I think I'm going to leave the ending rule as such, and that I mean, in level runs and full game runs, the player can't use Exit as a way to bypass the level quicker. I'm pliable in this matter but there are two reasons why I'm running with it for now:
1.) I'm not sure how relevant that is to all ports or releases, where the same function may work or different or something. So it would contribute to some consistency on an all platform basis. It's also a bit more risky to do since you can't just exit immediately once the necessary lemmings have exited the level; there's a balancing act using suicide between time and killing too many lemmings that make it fun.
2.) So, that other run that I referenced up there as the new WR. I'm going out on a limb here and guessing that guy may have seen my run and decided to try it out himself. Maybe not. In either case in his description he appears to follow this rule as well "Rules: ending level with ESC disallowed." So maybe I accidentally set bad precedent. Idk.
But like I'm said, I'm not ruling out feedback from others who are actually interested in submitting times and such.
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@namida As a side note, the SMS and the GameGear pretty much share the same hardware. The GameGear is backwards compatible with the SMS, more or less, but games for the GameGear cannot be played on the SMS.
Chances are, there is no difference between SMS/GameGear version of the games. I will double check though if I can, but likely the issue won't make itself too pressing for a while, I imagine.
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:lem-mindblown: Me just now finding this: Check out pages 16-17 and beyond...
https://issuu.com/amigajay/docs/lemmings_-_the_ports Page
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Regarding hitting the ESC instead of nuking. THANKS! for that heads up. Now I'm actually sort of torn.
Mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0n2g7CCd3U&t=191s
New WR posted 2 days ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg5sUosg4TQ&t=1947s 42:45!!!!
He knows about exiting with ESC, but explicitly disallows it in the video description.
Maybe discuss it with him after he replies to you? I don't mind to see either ruleset. It's more important that you two agree on ESC when the runs get posted.
cycles can be quite painful for games that don't have internal timing systems
I'm concerned about the loading times, where, to my knowledge, no game caps speed. It's good software design to allow unlimited load speeds.
Since you have a compeditor, maybe compare your vids for screen transitioning speed? If you're nearly equal, then this is no worry in Lemmings.
was any sort of Lemmings speedrunning up to this point... if there have been established rules on the matter in the past, I'd go with that.
I casually raced geoo in Lemmings 1, DMA's Lemmings 2 levels, custom Lemmings 2 levels, and Lix.
The Lemmings 1 race was too long ago to know whether we allowed ESC. I believe we allowed ESC because I don't remember any discussion, and then it's any% by convention. But this was merely one race without routing.
Lemmings 2 casual levels were entirely blind. I didn't highlight the races on twitch, but I clipped getting the idea for a crawling route (http://lixgame.com/etc/mud-slinger-crawling.mp4).
The Lix race was without much routing, too. We knew the levels well because I maintain the game and geoo maintained the community level set. 40 Lovely levels in 16:50 (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/207427506); like Neolemmix, it's this fast because of convenience features, but not optimized at all.
Lix and NeoLemmix come close to TAS environments. Custom levels focus purely on the puzzles and not on execution, in contrast to the puzzle-execution mix of Lemmings 1.
-- Simon
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So I took your suggestion and sort of compared the loading times between two videos, and it does appear mine is loading slower. That's likely to me not having messed with the cycles at that point, but I can't remember if I had set to 3000 or max at the time. I will play around with that more tomorrow to see what sort of effects DOSBox has on the game. At the end of the day though, RTA will probably be secondary to the combined in-game times of the individual levels. The IGT's will likely take precedence, so if the RTA's appear different, than I can go through and add up level times to see where things actually stand.
In other news, I added all the NES levels. But in the process, I realize it was getting too confusing with the additional NES levels (they use a lot of repeat levels in different ways that other systems don't). What I will likely do tomorrow, especially now that I The Ports reference guide to work with, I will go back in the level leader boards and separate the levels into groupings of sensible platforms. Ultimately, it will just look 1000 times better, and probably be a little more accurate, since the tools can be different for similar levels on different platforms, even when lemming numbers are the same.
It'll be worth the work.
Additionally, I may add a 100% category for the levels as well, so that levels that can be 100% completed can also be timed.
In any case, once I rework the level boards tomorrow, they should be more or less ready to go.
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So I've now fixed the level leaderboards. DOS/Amiga, NES, Genesis, CPC/ZX, and SMS are all set up and ready to go in that regard. I'll try to get the windows version up as well for some point, but might try to get Oops All Lemmings up first, since both are on the windows version.
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Nice topic. I always wondered about running Lemmings, it's interesting to me given that you can theoretically be incredibly consistent in your runs as there is no RNG or general NPC kinda problems to worry about. Maybe i'll fire up WinUAE and do some Amiga "episode" (ie Fun/Tricky etc) episodical attempts.
I don't see why ESC level ending should be disallowed if it's an inbuilt vanilla port mechanic though. Classically all that kinda stuff is fair game and runners pick whatever port is fastest, at least from what i've seen, as long as it is an official release. A NeoLemmix run for example would basically be TAS considering that you can easily do frame specific manipulation :P
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Pretty much. As far as I've ascertained, the lack of RNG makes Lemmings runs almost entirely about execution.
For example "We All Fall Down" is pretty straightforward. Basically, the only way of optimizing the level is basically setting release to 99 as fast as possible. That pushes the last necessary Lemming out the fastest. However, to turn all those lemmings into diggers would basically require to click on every one of them while their window for clicking will basically be reduced down to a single pixel. You'd pretty much have to move the cursor slightly to the left by one pixel, and then timed each lemming movings along the cursor, turning them into diggers on their exact pixel.
Obviously, a human probably can't do this under any conditions absent the use of tools.
Regarding ESC feature, the only reason I'm really disallowing it at the moment, is because the only person outside myself to do an RTA attempt did so explicitly banning the feature, and because it isn't entirely clear to me yet which ports have some sort of ESC feature to utilize (like GB, SNES, or what have ya). I can see the pros and cons for allowing for both.
What I will likely to in the future to address this problem is to create two subcategories: One which allows ESC (or any other mechanic that can be determined to quick end the level) and one which does not.
For the purposes of your Amiga run, if you so choose to do one, I would be willing to create said subcategory if it is explicitly your preference.
As far as NeoLemmix is concerned, I've disallowed, mainly seeing how it's no way an official lemmings release. However, I don't see why NeoLemmix couldn't operate with an additional leaderboard at some point in the future, which would allow custom levels to be speedrun and get boards as well.
Another interesting thing about Lemmings, as far as TAS's are concerned, it's actually a pretty neat game TAS wise, because the puzzle pretty much remains the same. It becomes about finding the exact frames and pixels to do actions that result in the fastest possible time.
Definitely looking forward to your run; feel free to contact me regarding any questions. My graphic card has been utter trash the last couple months, so I can't really work on a 30 level run atm w/o risking crashes mid-run, but hope to address it soon.
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Oh yeah, as a side note, I got the "Oh No! More Lemmings" board up as well here: https://www.speedrun.com/morelemmings
I have not yet added the levels yet though.
Basically, it appears the PS and GBC ports are essentially Lemmings & Oh No! More Lemmings, but with a few levels missing.
I'll probably still end up splitting these levels among to the two different games, for ease of keeping track of all the levels.
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Regarding ESC feature, the only reason I'm really disallowing it at the moment, is because the only person outside myself to do an RTA attempt did so explicitly banning the feature, and because it isn't entirely clear to me yet which ports have some sort of ESC feature to utilize (like GB, SNES, or what have ya). I can see the pros and cons for allowing for both.
Well, if you don't use it now, you'll have two runs not using it, and it'll only make it have more of an impact if you change it later. I'd suggest switching over right away. If there's no reason to ban it, don't ban it. :)
Ports don't matter, as they are separated anyway. Just remove the rule, and it can be used in whatever versions it is present. :)
(I also posted this on the forum itself)
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Whoa, 607, didn't know you were over here. :lem-mindblown:
Tonight when I get off work, I'll be looking into it, particularly how to get subcats set up appropriately if possible.
It's really just a matter of categorizing the ESC/No ESC feature. I have no intentions of banning its use from any and all run types.
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For example "We All Fall Down" is pretty straightforward. Basically, the only way of optimizing the level is basically setting release to 99 as fast as possible. That pushes the last necessary Lemming out the fastest. However, to turn all those lemmings into diggers would basically require to click on every one of them while their window for clicking will basically be reduced down to a single pixel. You'd pretty much have to move the cursor slightly to the left by one pixel, and then timed each lemming movings along the cursor, turning them into diggers on their exact pixel.
Obviously, a human probably can't do this under any conditions absent the use of tools.
Actually, it is pretty well known here that not every lemming has to dig to survive, because a partially dug-down floor (but not yet completely dug through) can already be low enough for a subsequent walker lemming to fall and land safely without having to dig himself. In fact, in a few ports there is a trick you can use to have one digger stop the digging of another lemming very closely behind, resulting in the creation of a permanent step-down ledge where the remaining lemmings can simply walk to and then fall safely down. Even in ports where that trick doesn't work, the survivability of falling from a partially dug-down floor means in the fastest solution, the very last lemming out definitely should not be digging, instead you can basically assign to the farthest lemming ahead of him that will not completely dig through the floor before that last lemming catches up. Bottom line, people here have worked out that you need far fewer diggers than the actual number of lemmings to complete the level, and in fact in doing so you would want the lemmings as close together as possible as well.
At release rate 99 in many ports, the lemmings are 4 pixels apart, and a lemming walk forwards one pixel per update. The update rate can vary from port to port but maybe somewhere around 16 fps. So I don't think the margin of error is quite so small as to preclude clicking on every lemming as not humanly possible (even ignoring that we don't actually have to or want to do that, per above). Very difficult? Undoubtedly, but completely beyond human ability? Not sure.
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So I don't think the margin of error is quite so small as to preclude clicking on every lemming as not humanly possible (even ignoring that we don't actually have to or want to do that, per above). Very difficult? Undoubtedly, but completely beyond human ability? Not sure.
Well, that's exactly* how I solved the Mayhem version of the level when I was a kid 8-) of course helped by the fact that, as you mentioned, it doesn't matter if you miss a lemming here and there -- the surrounding diggers will lower its fall enough.
*EDIT: On re-reading, I realise it's not exactly the same: I set the RR to 99 to get all lemmings out, then assigned diggers left to right.
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For example "We All Fall Down" is pretty straightforward. Basically, the only way of optimizing the level is basically setting release to 99 as fast as possible. That pushes the last necessary Lemming out the fastest. However, to turn all those lemmings into diggers would basically require to click on every one of them while their window for clicking will basically be reduced down to a single pixel. You'd pretty much have to move the cursor slightly to the left by one pixel, and then timed each lemming movings along the cursor, turning them into diggers on their exact pixel.
Obviously, a human probably can't do this under any conditions absent the use of tools.
Yes, that's a good point I had forgot about. I'm not sure it would actually allow you complete the level faster, but it would probably be easier to say, click on every other lemming than every single one. And it's four whole pixels? :'( It seems so smaller.
I think though, that if you were to use a digger say before, the last 2 lemmings, that would allow the 2 last lemmings to pass the digger, making the third the last lemming the furthest from the exit. I'd have to think about it for a moment, but seems like that would cause level to end a second earlier (assuming no escape).
I didn't know about dig cancel for other ports though. That's pretty cool. Seems like that might make a few levels easier, seeing how you wouldn't have to expend as many builders to cancel out a dig.
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About which "We all fall down" are we talking? It should be viable for the Fun variant?
My best time on the Fun variant of a Dos version with 99 release rate as early as possible is 2:12 left.
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After retrying it a bit I must admit that I may have been just lucky in my first attempts. Although I still think it is learnable and the way to go in single-level-attack. But for a full run it is quite risky.
The problems are:
-The lemmings seem to cluster which seems to make assignments harder.
-You can actually run out of diggers and still have lemmings left that need to dig.
I'm still not sure about the best strategy but having an aspect of back and forth in the assignments seems to be helpful for success.
Edit: It seems I wasn't lucky, but apparently in the CD-version the lemmings don't splat in this level. Nevertheless I managed to get through with 99 RR in the floppy version/where they splat as well. So it is still the way to go for single level.
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Yes, that's a good point I had forgot about. I'm not sure it would actually allow you complete the level faster
It totally would. If the last lemming out has to dig, he would definitely be the last one to exit, and would always be slower to exit than any solution where he doesn't have to dig, since digging down the full thickness of the floor is slower than falling onto a partially-dug floor and then falling off from that.
So the ideal fastest solution would have the last lemming out survive falling off a partially dug floor without digging himself, while also not overtaking the last digger used (otherwise that last digger becomes the last one to exit, behind the last lemming out). So to avoid the overtaking part, you want to find the lemming farthest ahead of the last lemming out, whose digging would not completely dig through before the last lemming out catches up. (For ports where dig-canceling works, of course you would just exploit that way ahead in the front of the line and be done with it.)
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For safety Proxima's method to just assign from left to right seems to be best from what I encountered in my attempts. It still should generate a time of having 2:11 left. It's possible to solve the level faster as ccexplore indicated but I still have no reliable method to do that. Maybe someone else can do it/knows how to.
Edit: With pause glitch (pausing shortly after the level starts before the hatch opens) and increasing spawn interval while pause the Proxima method even has 2:14 left. The question is whether one should really take the ingame time.
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Yes, that's a good point I had forgot about. I'm not sure it would actually allow you complete the level faster
It totally would. If the last lemming out has to dig, he would definitely be the last one to exit, and would always be slower to exit than any solution where he doesn't have to dig, since digging down the full thickness of the floor is slower than falling onto a partially-dug floor and then falling off from that.
So the ideal fastest solution would have the last lemming out survive falling off a partially dug floor without digging himself, while also not overtaking the last digger used (otherwise that last digger becomes the last one to exit, behind the last lemming out). So to avoid the overtaking part, you want to find the lemming farthest ahead of the last lemming out, whose digging would not completely dig through before the last lemming out catches up. (For ports where dig-canceling works, of course you would just exploit that way ahead in the front of the line and be done with it.)
Makes perfect sense to me. Just got to find out how many lemmings from the last one that is exactly; do that first, and then basically spend the rest of the level saving the rest, and that's pretty much... optimized, essentially.
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For safety Proxima's method to just assign from left to right seems to be best from what I encountered in my attempts. It still should generate a time of having 2:11 left. It's possible to solve the level faster as ccexplore indicated but I still have no reliable method to do that. Maybe someone else can do it/knows how to.
Edit: With pause glitch (pausing shortly after the level starts before the hatch opens) and increasing spawn interval while pause the Proxima method even has 2:14 left. The question is whether one should really take the ingame time.
Is that a really a glitch though? I assumed that was an innate function; pausing and then being able to use the F1-F12 functions while paused?
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The pause glitch is that (on DOS Lemmings; don't know about other versions off-hand) if you pause just when the level starts, then unpause, the hatch opens immediately, saving two seconds of in-game time.
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The pause glitch is that (on DOS Lemmings; don't know about other versions off-hand) if you pause just when the level starts, then unpause, the hatch opens immediately, saving two seconds of in-game time.
Oh, gotcha. That's uh... pretty interesting.
It is interesting question as to igt/rta I haven't quite determined yet. I'm tempted to say igt is more important on levels, and rta more important on multiple levels. But I intend on taking into account input from runners.
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Did a little testing this morning and it does appear that DOSBox cycle speed does affect the loading times. On the bright side, it has an upper limit. I'm not actually sure where it is, but it appears around 12000 cycles the loading speed tops out. This also affects the intro screen credits scrolling, which is a good way to measure if you have enough cycles to max out the loading speed.
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For safety Proxima's method to just assign from left to right seems to be best from what I encountered in my attempts. It still should generate a time of having 2:11 left. It's possible to solve the level faster as ccexplore indicated but I still have no reliable method to do that. Maybe someone else can do it/knows how to.
Edit: With pause glitch (pausing shortly after the level starts before the hatch opens) and increasing spawn interval while pause the Proxima method even has 2:14 left. The question is whether one should really take the ingame time.
(With Pause Glitch) I was able to complete with 2:15 left.
Basically to get that one extra second, you got to start digging with the right lemming in the middle. But then you got to start digging with lemmings in front of that one. It prevents any of the lemmings towards to back to end behind the original digger once they get to the bottom.
https://youtu.be/aOGb_l2ltoY
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Basically to get that one extra second, you got to start digging with the right lemming in the middle. But then you got to start digging with lemmings in front of that one. It prevents any of the lemmings towards to back to end behind the original digger once they get to the bottom.
Cool, this strategy works out really well and seems reasonably safe. But unfortunately you lose one second with the pause glitch. You can hold the timer when it is still 3:00.
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Basically to get that one extra second, you got to start digging with the right lemming in the middle. But then you got to start digging with lemmings in front of that one. It prevents any of the lemmings towards to back to end behind the original digger once they get to the bottom.
Cool, this strategy works out really well and seems reasonably safe. But unfortunately you lose one second with the pause glitch. You can hold the timer when it is still 3:00.
Interesting. My noise was being wonky for some reason. (I think the increased cycle speeds interferes with the audio, but need to look more into it). But it's hard to pull out the glitch with the audio cue to know the earliest spot to do it (and if you've done successfully. It seemed like I was able to pause until immediately once the igt hit 2:59, but I wasn't sure.
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Interesting. My noise was being wonky for some reason. (I think the increased cycle speeds interferes with the audio, but need to look more into it). But it's hard to pull out the glitch with the audio cue to know the earliest spot to do it (and if you've done successfully. It seemed like I was able to pause until immediately once the igt hit 2:59, but I wasn't sure.
Yeah, audio glitches out above a certain cycle count. Try starting off with a lower cycle count, where the proper sound is still there, and then increase the cycles when in the game.
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Added the Windows '95 Levels. Those can be ran now (at least the lemmings levels, not the oh no! more levels).
Btw, is there a Lemmings discord?
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Btw, is there a Lemmings discord?
We have a Lemmings Forums discord channel run by GigaLem. See this forum thread (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3062.0) for more details :)
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Thx. :thumbsup:
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So, after messing around with the backend of the leaderboard enough; it just made sense to allow DOS players to use whatever functions is necessary to get a better time. While means, basically allowing ESC.
Interesting thing 607 noticed on the runs. If you set the DOS settings to "High Performance PC" than the fade out of the level post hitting ESC takes longer.
Basically, whenever you hit ESC, the time immediately stops, but level will continue. Basically, if you need one lemming to beat the level, you can hit ESC a couple seconds before the lemming hits the exit. This freezes the IGT, and the fade out for the level begins. If the lemming makes it to the goal during the fade out, then the game will count it. So using ESC not only goes faster for any given level for obvious reasons, but it also goes slightly faster on all levels with 100% needed completion rate, because you hit ESC a couple seconds before the last lemmings enter, giving them just enough time to get in before the level ends. DOSBox cycles don't appear to affect the level fade out.
Curious if anyone had an idea why "High Performance PC" would cause the fade out to last longer?
Also, would y'all like or mind if put a link the discord on the speedrun forum?
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One can actually beat Fun 2: "Only floaters can survive this" (Dos) in 16 s IGT if you use pause glitch and "High Perfomance PC" with Esc early enough.
Just hit Esc when the timer is still at 4:44 (provided you have used pause glitch optimally).
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One can actually beat Fun 2: "Only floaters can survive this" (Dos) in 16 s IGT if you use pause glitch and "High Perfomance PC" with Esc early enough.
Just hit Esc when the timer is still at 4:44 (provided you have used pause glitch optimally).
:lem-mindblown: Got to beat 607 to it when I get home. :lix-tongue:
I'm thinking Level 1 can be done in 16 seconds too honestly.
I imagine in most instances shaving off that last second will always come down to perfect execution of ESC and pause glitch.
Any tips on level 4? I got :36, he's done to :33. As far as I can determine, you got to get the lemmings that aren't digging facing the right direction at the right time. I was thinking about at work, maybe possibly setting the speed to 1, using the first lemming to dig, and seeing if he completes it fast enough for the next lemming not to get stuck in the top part.
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Interest is starting to pick-up.
One player got a 1:13:54 on the Fun Levels from a SNES emulated run 8 days ago.
Today a Japanese player was able to finish the Fun Levels on the SNES 44:04, which 1:19 away from being faster than the MS-DOS version. :lem-mindblown:
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I haven't looked at this in ages. Are the current MS-DOS version solutions submitted for this thing even anywhere close to optimized? I suspect many probably aren't, despite efforts that have already been made a long time ago on the challenge threads here (but never yet translated into the form of a video or similar that conforms with the submission requirements used here).
Also, are we measuring based on game time or real time? Either way, there are difference in the two ports in terms of how many physics update occur in a game second, and also how long in real time it takes between physics updates. As a result, the exact same solution involving the exact same pixel-level movement of the lemmings, will still take slightly different amount of time in each port, whether or not you are measuring in game time or real time. As a result that will make timings from the two ports not directly comparable, until you adjust for those differences accordingly.
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I haven't looked at this in ages. Are the current MS-DOS version solutions submitted for this thing even anywhere close to optimized? I suspect many probably aren't, despite efforts that have already been made a long time ago on the challenge threads here (but never yet translated into the form of a video or similar that conforms with the submission requirements used here).
Oh, definitely not even close, I wouldn't think. Although I'm sure Fun in of itself is probably not too far from an the actual optimized time.
Also, are we measuring based on game time or real time?
For the purposes of running multiple levels, real-time takes precedence, so that levels have to be done in quick secession. For the individual levels, the IGT timer is more important. This is sort of important for MS-DOS because things like pausing and pause glitches and such for are useful for stopping the IGT, whereas it would be particularly slow over a series of long levels to have to do a pause glitch every level (and going slower in real time) in order to make the IGT work better. I haven't tested all the consoles yet, so it's not yet clear what sort of things like this can or cannot be exploitable.
Either way, there are difference in the two ports in terms of how many physics update occur in a game second, and also how long in real time it takes between physics updates. As a result, the exact same solution involving the exact same pixel-level movement of the lemmings, will still take slightly different amount of time in each port, whether or not you are measuring in game time or real time. As a result that will make timings from the two ports not directly comparable, until you adjust for those differences accordingly.
Oh definitely. The leader-boards are separately by platform because the number of ports and their minute differences are so numerous and often tiny but still important. That's actually kind of why I was shocked the SNES time for Fun could be done that quickly, given that I assume the console version runs slower.
When emulating MS-DOS, increasing the processing speed allotted to the program doesn't really affect in-game play. The internal timer for the levels keeps the refresh rate locked. However, it does speed up loading screens so that the transition between levels is quicker. This however is limited, so there is a limit to how quickly loading screens can move, which is naturally important for keeping the playing field equal for MS-DOS users. I suspect this allows one to get through loading screens faster than a SNES would, and that sort of stuff can add up.
If more runs get added soon on different consoles, could be fun to take the current records and put them in the same video for comparison.
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... You were using a glitch for your runs!! :o
I mean, that's no problem, but I never realised! Now I get why some of your times seemed unbeatable to me... Wow. :P
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... You were using a glitch for your runs!! :o
I mean, that's no problem, but I never realised! Now I get why some of your times seemed unbeatable to me... Wow. :P
Ah, I thought you were too, but I see now you were just pausing.
Yes, basically, when the level starts, the IGT starts and the pre-open music starts. However, if you pause immediately, the IGT stops, but the pre-open music continues. Once you hear the door opening sound (but the door hasn't opened yet), you can unpause the game. The door immediately then opens, and IGT resumes. So it saves 2-3 seconds on every level (if you are playing on MS-DOS). It's unclear at the time what other ports have something similar, but SNES definitely has the option to leave the level early, and as long as you get the necessary lemmings, the next level will continue.
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Just a quick update. A run has now been performed for the Fun Levels on SNES, that is the fastest recorded run of the first 30 levels of the game thus far, beating out the record set by Usumgallu on MS-DOS 5 months ago. It's pretty impressive given it was also done on original SNES hardware. The new time for the Fun Levels (especially the ones that feature the full 30 levels) across platforms is 41:32, only 47 seconds faster than the previous MS-DOS run.
Also the first run for the Genesis version of the game (the Japanese release) was submitted a couple weeks ago as well. So for now the fastest run on Genesis is exactly 10 minutes slower than the new SNES run.
https://www.speedrun.com/lemmings/run/z033wloz
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I'm sure the answer is "yes" but is the SNES run actually faster than MS-DOS due to actually better solutions, versus platform differences resulting in timing differences? Also remind me, are we measuring in real time, versus some variant of game time or frames?
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So I did a very rough doubling of the video:
http://youtubedoubler.com/?video1=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DCFLCQ7A_bmU&start1=14&video2=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dkg5sUosg4TQ&start2=5&authorName=nch
And it appears for the most part, the reason the SNES version is ahead in this case, is because the MSDOS run (something I forgot about it) isn't exploiting the ESC button, instead opting for suicides to end levels. So that's definitely the main reason.
Additionally, it does appear the SNES version moves slightly faster. The IGT is slightly quicker... maybe about 10% more so it seems. I noticed certain Lemming animations are also slightly faster (such as builder), the frame rate of the IGT probably matches the movement speeds of Lemmings.
So given that, it's actually somewhat of a testament to the MSDOS runner, because he was only a minute behind, and it appears it's at a slight time disadvantage. But the MSDOS runner had a far cleaner run. No retries, no use of pauses, where as the SNES run did (which is somewhat understandable if you are actually playing with a SNES controller). But the ESC likely saved something like 6-10 seconds a run, and over 30 levels, well...
First multi-level runs we use real-time, as, trying to figure out how to do a frame rule thing and then adjust times appropriately would... well be a nightmare. For level runs, we do use IGT. Maybe I will go through and add players level times, and that might help paint a better picture as well.
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Also interesting the SNES version has a point system. I don't recall seeing that anywhere else.
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I know there was a thread about it and I want see something like it come to life.
A Speedrun that saves every lemming possible in each level in the original Lemmings or to shorten it "Lemmings Max Saved%"
I'd like to see if someone could do something like that, or at least practice it.
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I know there was a thread about it and I want see something like it come to life.
A Speedrun that saves every lemming possible in each level in the original Lemmings or to shorten it "Lemmings Max Saved%"
I'd like to see if someone could do something like that, or at least practice it.
That seems arbitrary. But it might not be, if we're rather certain on what's the maximum possible on each level.
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Max% records for DOS Lemmings are pretty firm by now, since ccexplore in particular thoroughly explored what's possible with all the glitches (and Ephraim's original list of records already saves 100% on all but 20 levels, so only those ones need to be looked at).
I'm not sure about other platforms. In the Challenges forum we keep track of max% on all major platforms, but records for those may not be as firm as the DOS ones (e.g. I found a saving on Genesis Present 2 that was missed by others, and I suspect that Mac Mayhem 26 is improvable but it hasn't been tested yet).
A max% speedrun would be pretty tricky given the requirements for some of the glitch solutions (Mayhem 2, Mayhem 10 in particular).
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Yeah, an additional max % requirement would put the difficulty of some of the glitch solutions for max %, on top of the difficulty of the speedrunning itself. Then again, I seem to recall Clam posted quite a few solutions involving the sliding glitch (not always related to speedrunning, but clearly the glitch can have speedrunning potential at times), so even the normal speedrunning w/o the max % condition would probably still have a few difficult spots where the fastest possible solution (with glitches allowed) happen to use the sliding glitch. Outside of sliding glitches sometimes the non max-% speedrunning solution can still actually be much more difficult to execute than the max-% one; for example "Mary Poppin's Land", the fast solution (with the massive use of builders at the start followed by steel glitches to bomb down the drop) is quite frenetic and precise to execute, whereas the 100% solution, while having some initial trickiness setting up the crowd-holding gadget, is more relaxed-pace overall since you are forced to do relatively longer builds to create safe landings (aka doing the rest of the level the "normal" way).
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Someone submitted runs for Easy on SMS and NES. Not at all optimized, but impressive anyone even got through it given the platform.
Sorry, I've recently moved, so I was AWOL there for a bit. I'm not sure it's actually possible to do a 100% speedrun of the game. I realize glitches allow some of the non-100% levels to happen, but is it actually possible to 100% all 120 levels?
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It is not. You can check the highest % saved in this topic in Challenges (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1383.0). On DOS Lemmings, 101 levels can be 100% saved without glitches, two more with glitches. Other versions may have slight differences (and in some cases, include some completely different levels, as you know) but none of the main versions of Lemmings 1 allows for 100% on every level.
Thus, when we talk about max% we're talking about saving the highest % possible (and in most cases we're pretty confident our records are indeed the best that can be achieved).
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That'd be one hell of a verification process.
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Hmm. Someone beat the Fun Levels on the NES in 18:38. Only 25 Levels on the NES, and the frame rate runs clearly much higher, with slightly smaller levels. Not perfectly optimized or anything, but impressive.
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That would be forum member Nessy, by the way. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsiHssAME50)
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That would be forum member Nessy, by the way. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsiHssAME50)
Oh, nice. Truly badass stuff. Given the different level sizes, the rate at which the game runs and the reduced levels, 1:30 run on all the levels seems totally plausible, whereas I imagine anything under 5 hrs for the DOS version to be vaguely possible.
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Hi! Sorry for the speedrun seemly coming out of nowhere like that without prior announcement. I did want to try my hand at speedrunning a Lemmings game even if for a little while but wasn't sure what port was the most ideal for me. When news of that first NES speedrun was published here I suddenly remembered the game and thought it was the most ideal speedrun for me for its shorter length and familiarity. I did play the port a lot as a child and was familiar with some of its weirder mechanics that can be taken advantage of (like assigning a basher just when a builder is about to finish because it won't take effect immediately but instead when the builder is either halfway done or completely done). Other good things to take advantage of is learning some better timing for hitting that nuke button earlier on some levels for optimization purposes. It's a bit uncharted territory, and a little exciting!
I definitely want to try my hand at the other ranks as well when I get a chance and maybe do a full "All Levels" run to see if 1:30 is indeed possible :)
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I definitely want to try my hand at the other ranks as well when I get a chance and maybe do a full "All Levels" run to see if 1:30 is indeed possible :)
Awesome! :D
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Hey. It's me, the guy who sent in that Fun 12 speedrun of LAUGHABLE quality to speedrun.com . I'm just here to ask, "What was your initial reaction to that run?" :P
I wanna do more individual level speedruns like that, but, y'know, better in every way.
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Hey. It's me, the guy who sent in that Fun 12 speedrun of LAUGHABLE quality to speedrun.com . I'm just here to ask, "What was your initial reaction to that run?" :P
I wanna do more individual level speedruns like that, but, y'know, better in every way.
Ah, nothing too crazy. Some people submit their first runs to games I moderate, so it wasn't too shocking. People like to track their progression as well, so it makes it easier. Please feel free to submit more individual level runs. Gives me motivation to come back to get a better time. :evil:
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Just want to mention that the Lemmings Arcade prototype might be even more ideal for a speedrun than NES. While I don't think the lemmings in arcade prototype move quite as fast as on NES, the arcade prototype has only 67 levels and even more importantly, you only have to save a single lemming in any level to move onto the next. And sometimes the levels are shortened as well (compared to original versions on Amiga/DOS) via repositioning of exits or entrances. And yes, there are some unique and exploitable glitches that might be helpful here and there.
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Just want to mention that the Lemmings Arcade prototype might be even more ideal for a speedrun than NES. While I don't think the lemmings in arcade prototype move quite as fast as on NES, the arcade prototype has only 67 levels and even more importantly, you only have to save a single lemming in any level to move onto the next. And sometimes the levels are shortened as well (compared to original versions on Amiga/DOS) via repositioning of exits or entrances. And yes, there are some unique and exploitable glitches that might be helpful here and there.
I'll have to check it out. I didn't even realize the prototype was complete enough to run.
On a side note, another SMS/Fun run was submitted today, cutting over 50% of the time off the previous run.
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Hey y'all. Been a while, but since the NES port has started to get a little traction. Just thought I'd give a little update on the few levels.
Nessy set a time on the Fun Levels a year ago at 18:38. It stood for a while, but a fellow that speedruns NES games (NESCardinality) gave it a shot a couple weeks ago, and was able to shave a minute off the run to make the record 17:38. This morning, I verified another run by a player called crasyfingers. He shaved 26 seconds off the previous run, and now holds the record at 17:12. Looking at the run, it's pretty well optimized. Maybe a second or two could be saved on pulling things off a little differently. There's a couple levels where I can see minute differences of a few seconds with slightly different strategies, but unless some new strat is found on one of the levels, I can't see a sub-17 happening. I'd be interested if anyone can see a strategy that isn't currently utilized that might make a sub 17 possible.
There is no NES TAS in the TAS archives I can see to look at.
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NuclearHyrule posted two threads on SMS Lemmings Fun RTA to /r/speedrun:
Reddit thread on We All Fall Down (https://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/dsy4l7/heads_and_tails_perfectviable_lemmings_sms_fun_13/) -- Youtube video (https://youtu.be/2QC2gqRUp0g)
Exploits spawn interval of 2 that's apparently possible on SMS with RR 98. Most ports' quickest spawn interval is 4.
Reddit thread on If Only They Could Fly (https://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/dqjnxi/a_pixelperfect_bridge_lemmings_sms_fun_28_rta/) -- Youtube video (https://youtu.be/3ZmNKl-9P8o)
Builds bridge in the only possible location that both avoids head bump at decoration and reaches the target platform high enough to ascend.
Looks like everybody is busy on a different port. :8():
-- Simon
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Hi Simon, yeah that's me, I had planned to come back to Lemmings SMS this winter and I found a large number of perfections to my old solutions which I've now nearly finished. The full playlist can be seen at https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOTsjhPmEfJd9ccq6yzH6VL9ObH9M9hYr and the fastest possible 30-level run is now down at just under 31 1/2 minutes. The improvements generally fall under either pixel-perfect actions (bridges, bashes, even floats), tighter tail management, or better management of lag. The definite highlight of this is
-Don't Do Anything Too Hasty. You think you need blockers to solve this level? Think again. What used to be a high-lag run killer nightmare is now a gimme.
What used to be a run of risky levels from 15-23 is now mostly safe. 9 is just a lag nightmare, the only stress now is 17/18 which demand precision. Will be attempting to lower the WR to around the 32.xx mark soon then perfecting Tricky.
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Always admired PetaQ's runs for the sole fact lag is an overwhelming factor of consideration.
Running the NES version, it's definitely the easiest so far that I've encountered, due to lack of lag, the grid system which eliminates a lot of necessary precision in some of the other ports, as well as the lack of the ability to change the spawn rate.
A speedrunner by the name NESCadinality has done a lot of the improvements in the NES version as of late.
His times are below:
Fun: 17:38 (WR is 17:12 by crasyfingers as of now).
Tricky: 36:32
Taxing: 40:08
Mayhem: 1:03:12
That's a sum of 2:37:30.
He also complete an All Levels run 3:08:30 a few days ago, so there is only a 31 minute difference between his sum of best 4 sections and his complete run. His run appears to be last time someone has completed the game, recorded, in one sitting for 5 years or so.
I'm still working on trying to improve my Fun / NES time, and would like to complete the next sections as well. Then I might towards doing some runs for the Game Boy port afterward, or get back to doing DOS.
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NES / Fun
crasyfingers (22 days ago) [17:12]
me (yesterday) [16:52]
crasyfingers (today) [16:48]
me (yesterday) [16:37]
Down to seconds and frames at this point.
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Good job! :thumbsup: I did have a quick look at the 17:12 video a few weeks back. At the time I did think a few levels may benefit from some multitasking (plus a lot of other places with minor improvements as well) but didn't have time/patience to try anything out. It'd be great if you can point out which specific levels that got the most improvements in your latest WR compared to the 17:12 WR, presumably from changes in strategy. It'd be a little easier than having to watch through two videos in full side-by-side (well, once you put out the video of your latest successes anyway). ;P
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crasyfingers lowered his time down to [16:24], so another 13 seconds gone.
Mostly this is due to better execution. Some of the improved strats though are as follows.
1-4: Nothing
5: Certain timing with blockers can improve a second or so.
6: correct timing of second explosion will keep a lemming from bouncing, saving a second.
7: (and applicable in other instances) cancelling or ending bridges via pickaxe is a couple frames faster for that specific lemming than ending one with bashers.
8: just bashing through without using any blockers saves a second.
9: not much except better timing cancelling out waiting for one more lemming to die.
10: using a blocker at start, then doing the climbing etc., than adding more blockers to continue bunching of lemmings.
11: new strats for bunching lemmings has improved a few seconds there.
12: impossible to improve
13: improved strats for bunching lemmings while bashing and building, and use of pickaxe.
14: small optimization with timing of events.
15: bunching lemmings closer to gate with multiple blockers. using 2 blockers at the beginning makes it basically impossible to destroy one blocker at the correct time without losing the bridge lemming.
16: big change here: instead of just bashing through with one lemming... make first lemming climb and bash where the column is shorter, than make others climb. saves a 5-6 seconds.
17: save a couple of seconds suiciding the last 5 lemmings.
18: better timing
19: better timing through use of bunching lemmings making it easier.
20: suicide the first two pick axes, then suiciding the third right before he uses his pickaxes saves a couple of seconds.
21: no improvements
22: pick axe improvement.
23: new strat is to pick axe first lemming, than use umbrellas; this results in quicker deaths and non releases for lemmings not needing to be saved.
24: this is the bulk of the improvement, and involves using climbers instead of bashers at the beginning to make the final portion easier to time and gets rid of lemmings not needed to beat level.
25: improved bunch and timing.
Hard to type the specific details on any given level, let alone all 25.
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Fun / NES [16:16]
This one ain't going to be topped anytime soon. With the exception of a couple of things, this run was basically perfect. So much detail covered on these 25 levels.
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I bumped the SMS Fun WR down to 31:42 even with two resets and some hairy moments. The resets are deceptive: the one in 10 is about a one in twentyfive occurrence and not something you consciously think about during runs. 30 is just a nasty level full stop and if I improve this run I should definitely look at changing the final action to prevent them getting stuck.
5, You Need Bashers is the fastest I've ever done thanks to a pixel perfect web-bash setup and proper nuke timing. Improvement to 11, Keep Your Hair On by bombing the trail bashing lemming rather than one of the advance party to reduce the tail, and check out the perfect in 13, We All Fall Down. I added a defensive bomber position into 14, Origins and Lemmings to enable safe climber assignment; I also found a way to dig/bash from the top of each high pillar and ways to reduce the tail but they're effectively uselessly aggressive in a marathon run. You may also be highly interested in the swagtastic solution to 29, Worra Lorra Lemmings, which relies on both a pixel-perfect bash and a pixel-perfect bomb. Ultimately the time can be put down to very near 30:00 dead, but I'm going to start working on final optimisations of Tricky now which may take a while since everything can now be pixel perfected. I hope to be able to stream in the coming weeks once my tech is sorted out so if I do I will definitely try to showcase our wonderful game to a wider audience.
https://youtu.be/0pnfuAo8sF8
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These ones are for you guys ;P
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WillLem, are these levels? How do I play them? I work tax seasons, so will probably be a bit before I get a sec to try them, but I'd like to when I get some free time.
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WillLem, are these levels? How do I play them?
They're new-format NeoLemmix levels, they can be played in any NeoLemmix version from 12.7.0 upwards (and a few previous versions as well I think); it's definitely worth getting the latest stable version (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4504.0;all) if you don't already have it.
When you run NeoLemmix, press F2 to go into the level select menu, then click the "Add Content To List" button at the bottom. This will allow you to browse to wherever you've saved the levels and then open them.
Or, you can simply paste the levels into the NeoLemmix>levels directory and then they'll appear in the F2 menu that way.
Enjoy!
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If any fans of speedrunning fancy chiming in on this discussion (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4691), that'd be great. I'd like to know people's opinions from all sides of the debate, whether you agree or disagree.
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So opposing views are welcome? That's refreshing! I love this place already. haha
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So opposing views are welcome? That's refreshing! I love this place already. haha
Generally speaking, yes. Rules are a bit tighter on the NL Suggestions board, but mostly only to the extent of "if I've said it's not happening, don't suggest it here" - you can still discuss it as a "what if" on a more-general part of the site, and the closing it down on the suggestions board is more a "this won't be happening in NL", not a "you aren't allowed to discuss it".
Although rare, there have even been cases where such discussions have lead to the rejection being overturned, too.
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I started the final round of work on Tricky SMS a while ago and have been able to incorporate the walking on water glitch from Squidgy in to a solution already, so thanks to him for that discovery! I made very good progress with a few levels thanks to pixel perfects. I've been able to go super aggressive but also very safe in various methods so far. Perhaps my favourite optimisation among the first 12 levels is for Been There, Seen It, Done It. It perfectly showcases the p-perfect accuracy of these solutions as well as the need to pragmatically pause the game if you need to make such a setup. I would LOVE to be able to do this at a marathon event one day, it would look so good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjTxeC1mWls
Meanwhile I have started streaming at www.twitch.tv/petaq_src and many of these streams include some Lemmings Tricky practice, which will soon move on to actively optimising levels 13-30 ahead of WR runs. I will try to make some of these streams US-timezone friendly and I would love to see anyone who is interested in this sort of work pop in and enjoy the inner workings of the game.
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Hey y'all.
It's been a bit. After some time improving my streaming set up, getting more original hardware; I'll be back up and running harder than ever once my busy work season is over this spring. Just wanted to congratulate WillLem's Amiga runs which are top notch.
A bit of an update in the Lemmings Speedrunning World, since there are been more increasing interest in the game as time goes on. Here's where we stand on known runs:
Amiga:
Fun: (36:31) by WillLem (emulator). This was a 3+ minute improvement from the previously known fastest run.
Tricky: (46:54) by WillLem (emulator). WillLem set up the first time here a couple days ago.
MS-DOS:
All Levels: (6:14:41) by TTDLX (emulator). This run was set 6 years ago.
Fun: (37:21) by crasyfingers (emulator). Ran about a year ago, it was a great improvement on earlier attempts.
Tricky: (1:16:25) by NihilistComedyHour (emulator). This was my first attempted run some 3 years ago.
NES:
All Levels: (3:08:30) by NESCardinality. Set a year ago; still no one brave enough to attempt beating it.
Fun: (16:16) by NihilistComedyHour (emulator).
Tricky: (29:10) by NihilistComedyHour (emulator).
Taxing: (40:08) by NESCardinality.
Mayhem: (1:03:12) by NESCardinality.
(As a side note, I know have a NES and the game, and plan on running and improving all NES times on original hardware).
SNES:
Fun: (35:36) by ApG77 (emulator). This has become a surprisingly popular, with 7 runners currently on the board. ApG77's impressive run is over 4 minutes faster than the next.
Tricky: (49:25) by ApG77 (emulator).
Taxing: (1:05:04) by ApG77 (emulator).
SMS:
Fun: (31:42) by petaQ (emulator).
Tricky: (54:09) by petaQ (emulator).
Genesis:
Fun: (31:31) by PhoenixOfGrunvale (emulator). Recently improved the time by 1:08. It was discovered that using the European version of the game provides an advantage because the reduction in lag offsets the slower frame rate.
And that's where we currently sit!
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A funny speedrun could be done with Lemmix. With the new 'z' key function (run until the end) you can run a level within seconds :-) Would love to see that.
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the new 'z' key function (run until the end)
Is that like a huge frameskip or more like a fast-forward?
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"run in hyperspeed until the end of the game"
like "skip run" until all lemmings are saved or died or time is up.
for example when playing Fun 1: assign a digger to the first lemming landing on the ground and then press 'z'
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Some results updates for my L1 speedruns. I've now completed Amiga, plus the first 2 ranks in SuperLemmini (links to videos):
Amiga
Fun - 34:37 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDpdxmP3WdA&list=PL430H_NdgWNfUCIj8bPPBbwF4k5TWfQ0B&index=1) - an improvement over my previous record to bring it under the 35-minute mark
Tricky - 46:54 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNNpiTEC3Ss&list=PL430H_NdgWNfUCIj8bPPBbwF4k5TWfQ0B&index=2) - a very solid run with one mistake which cost me about 30 seconds. I'll be trying again at some point to get this below 45:00
Taxing - 59:15 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F_GaFb_RtY&list=PL430H_NdgWNfUCIj8bPPBbwF4k5TWfQ0B&index=3) - finally managed to get this under the hour after many attempts. I'm super happy with this run and it's unlikely I'll try to improve it
Mayhem - 1:16:09 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hajKsHtyOA0&list=PL430H_NdgWNfUCIj8bPPBbwF4k5TWfQ0B&index=4) - very happy with this run overall, it's some of the best Lemmings I've ever played! The PBs in the run are unfortunately offset slightly by a handful of restarts (nothing too costly), and again there is some room for improvement in the strats; the run could probably be done in 1:10:00 - 1:15:00, again with a lot of practice
N.B. A blunder on level 29 Save Me almost cost me the Mayhem run, but I very fortunately pulled it back to avoid the restart. Still, it was bugging me that my performance of this level was below what I'm normally capable of, so I later ran it individually for a record of 3:52 (https://youtu.be/vuNJmjC49eg).
SuperLemmini
Fun - 14:45 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni9OqDYjwFI&list=PL430H_NdgWNdiGgbSjRhkGMfwd-Lv39jS&index=1)
Tricky - 23:22 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsq7-VKfr9w&list=PL430H_NdgWNdiGgbSjRhkGMfwd-Lv39jS&index=2)
Taxing - 28:29 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcmHTNw9nBw&list=PL430H_NdgWNdiGgbSjRhkGMfwd-Lv39jS&index=30)
Mayhem - 37:16 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4Eq0QmcOTA&list=PL430H_NdgWNdiGgbSjRhkGMfwd-Lv39jS&index=4)
NeoLemmix
Full game - 58:15 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7sYpLnw4wM&list=PL430H_NdgWNeJ5PGfcJ3Mrtn5E0RjP9DY&index=1)
Fun - 5:28 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynLv6VKrH08&list=PL430H_NdgWNeJ5PGfcJ3Mrtn5E0RjP9DY&index=2)
Tricky - 9:34 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6jtKxBDddU&list=PL430H_NdgWNeJ5PGfcJ3Mrtn5E0RjP9DY&index=3)
Taxing - 13:58 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbnQXYx9u4I&list=PL430H_NdgWNeJ5PGfcJ3Mrtn5E0RjP9DY&index=4)
Mayhem - 22:56 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw20i4xQ2Qg&list=PL430H_NdgWNeJ5PGfcJ3Mrtn5E0RjP9DY&index=5)
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Some amazing news! This weekend on Saturday at 4pm EDT 10pm BST (EDITED TIME), I will be showcasing SMS Lemmings Fun in SegaCrew's Segalympics marathon!! :thumbsup: Ever since I picked the game up it's been a total pipe dream to get it into an event, so this is a really great opportunity and I'd love to see as many of you as possible in there cheering me on. Hopefully we pick up a bunch of new runners to any version! You can watch the action live at https://www.twitch.tv/segacrew