Lemmings Forums
NeoLemmix => NeoLemmix Main => Topic started by: Nepster on September 09, 2017, 06:14:19 PM
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As promised, here the poll for your favorite new NeoLemmix features.
Why do I only have three votes? I would like to see more than three of these features!
Yeah, I know. But here I am interested in the most urgent features, the ones that you really cannot live without; not the ones you think you might want to try out some day.
I decided that I prefer to change my votes due. Can I do that?
Yes, you can. Of course only until the poll closes around next sunday. ;)
I have further input or would like to discuss some of the suggestions. Where can I do that?
If you would like to discuss how a feature should be implemented, or have arguments why a feature should not be implemented, then please post them in the dedicated feature threads. Whenever I know of them, I linked it below. If you cannot find a dedicated feature thread, then please open one.
If you just want to list all the features you would like to see one day (or something similar), then you are welcome to post your opinions here. I don't guarantee that I will take them into account, though.
I don't understand one of the suggestions. Can you explain a bit more?
1) New skill: Shimmier
A new skill that moves along the ceiling, similar to the shimmier skill in L2. It will not jump forward to reach the ceiling though, but directly upwards. More detailed discussion is here. (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3276.0)
2) New skill: Jumper
A new skill that behaves pretty similar to the L2 or Lix jumper, but without any tumbler mechanics. Slightly more detailed discussion is here. (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3276.0)
3) New skill: Pourer
A new skill that poures new terrain out of a bucket, which then runs around until it sticks somewhere. The precise rules are not yet clear, but some discussion can be found here. (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3276.0) Most likely it will resemble a mixture of the L2 glue-pourer and filler.
4) New skill: Runner
A new permanent skill that moves twice as fast as usual lemmings. Whether it will also do other skills twice as fast is still up to debate.
5) New skill: Slider
A new permanent skill that behaves like the L2 slider: Whenever reaching a gap, it slides down the wall and turn around.
6) New skill: Thrower
A new skill similar to the L2 spear-thrower or the stone thrower, that throws a sticky piece of terrain away. Whether it will be ball-shaped or spear-shaped is still up to debate.
7) New skill: Bazooka
A new skill similar to the L2 Bazooka, but without the flinging effect upon explosion. It will allow to remove terrain from a distance.
8) Level wrap
A setting that the level wraps around either horizontally or vertically or both. The implementation will be similar to the one in Lix.
9) Idling animations for traps, locked exits, ...
This basically amounts to allow more than one animation per object: Traps could have idling animations, locked exits could support both the opening animation and idling animations while closed and open, ...
10) Disappearing terrain
After a lemming has touched such a pixel of terrain with its feet, it will vanish and become air.
11) Neutral lemmings
Lemmings that behave just like usual lemmings (and count towards the save requirement), but cannot be assigned any skills.
12) Parallax backgrounds
Background wallpapers that don't move (as much or even at all) when the player scrolls around. More details can be found in the dedicated feature thread (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3167.0).
13) New object: Multi-use pick-up skills
An extension to the current pick-up skills, that give you more than one item of the given skill. More details can be found in the dedicated feature thread (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3384.0).
14) New object: Negative pick-up skills
The opposite of a pick-up skill. Upon collecting it, it will remove one (or even all) of the given skill.
15) New object: Single-use triggered animation objects
A variation of the now-removed triggered animation object, which will only display the animation once. More details can be found in the dedicated feature thread (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3382.0).
16) New object: Exits that only permit a given number of lemmings
An exit that will close forever after a certain number of lemmings have entered it. More details can be found in the dedicated feature thread (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3308.0).
17) New object: Exits that only permit lemmings with a certain skill
An exit that only lemmings with a fixed permanent skill may enter. More details can be found in the dedicated feature thread (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3308.0).
18) New object: Hatches that only spawn a given number of lemmings
A hatch that spawns only a certain number of lemmings. Some more details can be found in the poll preparation topic (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3390.msg65817#msg65817).
19) New object: Skill converter
A new object that removes or adds permanent skills to each lemming moving through it. The type of skill will be indicated by little icons on top of the object.
20) Player UI: Search for levels by name
This feature is an addition to the level selection menu. It would propose levels whose title matches the text you just wrote, so that you can easily find levels whose title you remember vaguely.
21) Editor: Grouping of terrain pieces
This is a feature purely for level designers: It would group some pieces in the level editor, so that they work like a single piece and can be copied, moved around, ... more easily. This would basically copy the Lix feature of the same name.
22) Editor: Add downloading styles
This would present a list of all styles available online on the NeoLemmix server, but not yet present in the player's style folder. It would then allow downloading them via the editor. Currently this is only planned as a feature in the NeoLemmix player.
23) Editor: Custom single background color
This would allow setting the background color to an arbitrary one, disregarting the selected theme.
24) Editor: Relative coordinate adjustments of pieces
This would allow entering how many pixels the selected pieces should be moved. Currently only absolute values can be entered, and moving pieces has to be done via dragging or the arrow keys.
If you have any further questions, please ask!
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I just want to throw in here that some of these skills seem pretty execution-based, don't they? Especially the thrower and bazooka were very fiddly in L2, in my opinion. In order to reliably estimate how far and at what angle the projectile is going to fly, the skill blueprint would have to be parabolic; I don't know whether that's possible to do. But then again, the jumper will probably also need such a parabolic blueprint, and that's perhaps the skill I consider most important, since its absence is currently the main thing separating NeoLemmix from Lix or Pingus.
Also, most of the L2 levels that featured the runner were based on very exact timing (a second too early or too late and the entire level would fail). The epitome of that was of course "Take up archery", a level that could easily be replicated with runner and thrower, and probably the last thing a puzzle fan wants to see, isn't it? ;)
Aside from jumping further, what use does a runner have except for such timing challenges? In case the runner is voted in and the jumper isn't (or just isn't mechanically possible), my guess is it won't add much to levels aside from creating a new era of execution-based meanness. ;)
So I have my doubts about these particular skills. It would be unfortunate to see new skills added first that may be likely to meet a similar fate as radiation and slowfreeze in the near future ;) .
Voted for jumper, shimmier, and limited number-exits, btw.
PS: What is level wraparound doing on that list? Another gimmick apart from zombies that might be reintroduced? :D It certainly seems the most puzzle-friendly of them all, perhaps even more so than zombies.
PPS: How will disappearing terrain be identifiable and distinguishable from normal terrain visually, so that it doesn't end up becoming a trolling tool (=you plan your perfect route for the crowd and then find out only a single lemming can pass through such an area)?
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I just want to throw in here that some of these skills seem pretty execution-based, don't they? Especially the thrower and bazooka were very fiddly in L2, in my opinion.
I know what you mean. I suggested to have projectile skills like thrower on the list, but I'm not sure if even I would vote for them. They bring the possibility for a lemming to affect terrain that's far away from their own position, which is not like how existing skills operate, so it may open up some new puzzle ideas. The disadvantage of course is the increased difficulty to the player to work out the trajectory. I expect that we probably want to implement shadows for projectile skills (basically a feature the player can activate on demand that shows you what the trajectory would be based on current conditions) to ease execution, but of course that's extra work.
For projectile skills to be useful they likely need to follow a parabolic-like path; a straight path may be easier to implement and easier for player to eyeball the trajectory without aid, but will likely limit the projectile to stick on only walls and ceilings.
Ultimately a devious level designer can abuse pretty much any skills to force precision on the player, but it is a fair point that projectile skills comes with a bit of built-in hassle even when the level designer has no desire to be difficult to the player.
PS: What is level wraparound doing on that list?
Maybe other people smarter than me can say how much or little this would add in terms of puzzle possibilities. We do at least have an example of horizontal wraparound with Lemming Revolution, though to be fair I can't think of any examples where the wraparound is particularly meaningful to the solution.
In Lix where this is currently supported, it appears mostly for use in multiplayer for levels supporting more than 2 players. It is a natural use in that case for fairness--without wrapping, players starting closest to the level boundaries would effectively have a different layout of things compared to players in the middle.
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Visuo-spatial confusion is an often employed trick to make puzzles (seem) more complex: The level creator deliberately violates basic principles of ergonomics in order to make a level less visually clear and obvious. A lot of the levels from the Nepster Lems pack work this way, they are deliberately huge and feature a lot of distractors, i.e. similar-looking elements, so that you never know where to use which skill.
Wraparound would enhance that effect, because now the player even has to think outside of the margins of the level itself. You want to go through a one-way block on the left? You might need to bash on the right edge of the screen :D .
This way you could introduce the psychological concept of spatial incompatibility into levels - having to react on the right side for something to happen on the left, or vice versa, and the same for top / bottom. This would still be strictly fair, you just need to make it obvious to the player that wraparound is active for a particular level.
So far, we can simulate the effects of wraparound using teleporters to some extent, but teleporters are uni-directional and trigger-based, do they can only affect a single lemming at a time, hence they can be bypassed easily.
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For a game like Lemmings Revolution the warparound thing was okay because of the nature of the game. The levels were on large cylinders and the entire level was able to flow around it continuously without any breaks in it. For Lix multiplayer it is also okay because without it a player that has his or her Lix in the center will immediately be at an unfair disadvantage of being attacked from both ends.
For NeoLemmix it doesn't seem like it's okay. The level would have to "break" on one side so that it can warp to the other side. That can be problematic because players except an end of terrain to be the end, but adding in the ability for the player to reach an end and warp back will destroy that exception. Plus, it will be much harder to solve a puzzle that uses that because of the very nature that human brains like continuity and it won't be able to perceive this ability all the time, and because of that puzzles that use warparound will just add unnecessary complexity that doesn't really give anything to a puzzle that could have been done the same without the warparound.
But that's just my two cents. I'm sure someone else can come up with a better argument for and against warparound.
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If wraparound is implemented it must have a continuous scroll like in Revolution. If continuous scrolling is going to be too much work to implement then we are better off not adding wraparound.
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I just want to throw in here that some of these skills seem pretty execution-based, don't they? Especially the thrower and bazooka were very fiddly in L2, in my opinion. In order to reliably estimate how far and at what angle the projectile is going to fly, the skill blueprint would have to be parabolic;
My idea was just to show the final location where they would stick resp. remove the terrain. That's pretty easy to calculate, because NL already has a "simulate this skill movement" implemented, which generates a lot of the other blueprints, too.
But then again, the jumper will probably also need such a parabolic blueprint, [...]
Correct, and easy to implement with the skill simulation.
Also, most of the L2 levels that featured the runner were based on very exact timing (a second too early or too late and the entire level would fail). The epitome of that was of course "Take up archery", a level that could easily be replicated with runner and thrower, and probably the last thing a puzzle fan wants to see, isn't it?
Aside from jumping further, what use does a runner have except for such timing challenges? In case the runner is voted in and the jumper isn't (or just isn't mechanically possible), my guess is it won't add much to levels aside from creating a new era of execution-based meanness.
I totally agree with you here. I am not a fan of the runner either.
PS: What is level wraparound doing on that list? Another gimmick apart from zombies that might be reintroduced? :D It certainly seems the most puzzle-friendly of them all, perhaps even more so than zombies.
Yes, but the huge problem with the gimmick wrap-around was, that you couldn't scroll over the edge of the level. Which made the feature indeed horrible to use (as Nessy and bsmith both predicted correctly). So if we add this feature, it must have the ability to scroll smoothly over any border that wraps. Yes, that means sometimes displaying multiple copies of the same level on one game screen, but so be it.
Look at how Lix handles wrap-around. Replicating this would be the goal.
PPS: How will disappearing terrain be identifiable and distinguishable from normal terrain visually, so that it doesn't end up becoming a trolling tool (=you plan your perfect route for the crowd and then find out only a single lemming can pass through such an area)?
Good point, and this certainly needs some further discussion, before I will even start implementing this feature (should it be voted on). One idea is to periodically make this terrain semi-transparent.
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on runners:
in Lix recently they have strong use to separate a worker when you can't adjust the RR. Of course they had this use even before locked RR. You can use it to separate a small group of lemmings. To get one lemming ahead to build bridge quickly enough to let others get by etc. My level "Eye of the needle" put them to use before locked RR also (and in another instance which is hard to describe). All of these btw, are to EASE execution not make it harder. They got several interesting uses honestly, I'm surprised people keep saying there's not much potential there. It's a relativity simple skill with a simple concept that I think could go a long way.
Wouldn't a lot of the complaints about L2 runners be lessened with the UI features of NL? [rewind, FF, replaying...]
on disappearing terrain:
Indeed I'd recommend it be marked accordingly. Perhaps similar to the way one-way-walls work. It animates in a "fading" fashion. That is; it alternates back and forth from opaque to translucent. That (on paper) sounds like a very effective way to implement it actually; exactly like one-way-walls.
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Just want to comment on some features that are in Lix.
Level wrap: In multiplayer it's essential to make things fair, but in singleplayer it's seen barely any use. I've tried to deliberately make use of it and found it quite difficult to come up with interesting ideas. I don't think it has that much potential.
Terrain grouping: Ever since this has been in Lix, it has made designing levels so much more pleasant. If you want to chop pieces up and turn them into something new, it's very simple. No more of that no-overwrite mess, and when you want to move a piece (that you previously would make with black terrain and no-overwrite) you don't have to make sure anymore you select exactly the right terrain pieces to move, because it's a single piece now. Basically, if you have a block, now you can easily create a similar block of arbitrary width and height. For anyone who's actually designing levels, I feel this is a really good thing to have. It's just incredibly convenient.
Runners: I think this is the skill Simon now somewhat regrets adding, because it simply isn't as versatile as the other skills. In combination with jumpers you can get a bit more out of them, but overall they have seen some, but not that much use in singleplayer. They can be used to easy timing though, when you need to get two single Lix together in a specific spot, as mobius mentioned.
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Wouldn't a lot of the complaints about L2 runners be lessened with the UI features of NL? [rewind, FF, replaying...]
This has always been my argument in favour of more execution-based stuff in general :D . What does it matter if you miss the right spot if you can just rewind? But for the more radical bunch, even that seems to be too much to ask. :P
If the ambition is "if you've figured out the route from hatch to exit, you should be allowed to pass on to the next level right away", then be consequential with that philosophy. Yes, there might be corner-case use for the runner in combination with other skills, like the jumper. I've made the same suggestion for timed bombers in combination with cloners, but the consensus has been that skills which are only good in combination with others don't justify their existence in and of themselves.
Separating groups can just as easily be done by only using the jumper, and there are a lot of L2 levels where the player has to do precisely that. So in essence, the runner seems to be only an amplification tool; it doesn't do anything the jumper doesn't already do by itself.
Concerning disappearing terrain: "Flickering" terrain might be obvious on the one hand and confusing on the other. As a first time player, I'd be inclined to believe "when it's visible, I can pass, when it's not, the lemming will fall down", i.e. I'd think it was an on again, off again-thing rather than a one-time use-thing.
Hence, my suggestion would be something like the barriers in Lemmings Revolution that can flush into a wall to let lemmings pass and come back out to block their way. Something similar could be done to one-use terrain: It would have to be a new kind of terrain, not something that can be applied to any tile piece, so that it is recognisable on its own. Once a specific number of lemmings has passed (this should be customisable, like in Lemmings Revolution), it fades to grey / decreases in opacity to make clear it can no longer be walked across.
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Wouldn't a lot of the complaints about L2 runners be lessened with the UI features of NL? [rewind, FF, replaying...]
Yes, as Strato Incendus already mentioned, ideally you would only have to rewind if you made some conceptual mistake, not just to place some skill more precisely. So while these features would certainly lessen the complaints, such complaints would still exist.
Concerning disappearing terrain: "Flickering" terrain might be obvious on the one hand and confusing on the other. As a first time player, I'd be inclined to believe "when it's visible, I can pass, when it's not, the lemming will fall down", i.e. I'd think it was an on again, off again-thing rather than a one-time use-thing.
Hence, my suggestion would be something like the barriers in Lemmings Revolution that can flush into a wall to let lemmings pass and come back out to block their way. Something similar could be done to one-use terrain: It would have to be a new kind of terrain, not something that can be applied to any tile piece, so that it is recognisable on its own. Once a specific number of lemmings has passed (this should be customisable, like in Lemmings Revolution), it fades to grey / decreases in opacity to make clear it can no longer be walked across.
Assuming it gets sufficiently many votes, I guess that we will need to try out a few of such possible ways to display disappearing terrain, before we find some way that everyone can live with. At the moment I can see advantages and disadvantages to both your and my suggestions.
PS @Strato Incendus: You seem to edit your posts quite often. As some of us get real-time alerts in chat, chances are pretty good that some of the regulars there already read your first version and miss the later edit. I know that this happened to me once or twice already.
PPS: I write this just for your information, not as a moderator admonishing you.
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Yeah, that's because I often write posts on my tablet and that's nearly impossible to do without typing mistakes, because the "keyboard" doesn't offer any haptic feedback ;) . So once something is posted I usually spot mistakes right away and have to go in again and correct them :D .
In this case however, it just happened to be that the part about flickering terrain came to my mind later, and I didn't want to double-post. ;) Good thing to know about the real-time alerts though, didn't know you guys are that quick :D . I usually expect some hours to pass before anyone answers, especially during the week when people still have other stuff to do ;) .
EDIT: You see? It happened again :D . Tablet keyboards are a real nightmare!
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the part about flickering terrain came to my mind later, and I didn't want to double-post.
Definitely double-post with larger, new ideas. At least our culture works best like this. Other communities might differ.
Edit for minor errors, or announce large corrections in an extra post.
-- Simon
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yes! We have no rules against double-posting here. Thank the Lord Jesus Mary and Baby Joesph.
the "NO DOUBLE POSTING" rule on many forums is the biggest dumbest useless rule in the history of rules and big dumb useless things.
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I always thought the unnecessary NO DOUBLE POSTING rule was down to a few things:
1. forum users tended to have a thing about their post count and would actively split a post up into multiple posts just to try and up their post count. Post count means nothing in my opinion, it's just a number!
2. I thought forum administrators wanted to cut back on server bandwidth and having people double posting was their way of combatting it. It could also have been to make the forum threads a bit tidier.
That's my 2 cents anyway
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Thanks to everyone who participated in the vote! :thumbsup::thumbsup:
1) New skill: Shimmier (9 votes)
We already started discussing the mechanics. So it remains for me to work out the precise checks and then implement it. I will make a post once this is done, but before I actually start implementing anything.
16) New object: Exits that only permit a given number of lemmings (9 votes)
Here the main remaining issue to be discussed is the graphics. Wafflem already proposed a sign for it, but I prefer something slightly less glaring. At the moment I am thinking about using the locking animation of locked exits, but in the reverse direction.
Depending on what we choose here, I might even have to implement the idling animations (point 9 in the poll) first.
2) New skill: Jumper (7 votes)
Given that I have already the Shimmier on my list and the various critical voices regarding the jumper animation without tumbling, don't expect this any time soon. Ask me again once the shimmier is implemented and has seen about 2 months of usage to find and fix glitches.
3) New object: Multi-use pick-up skills (5 votes)
This shouldn't be too much work, especially compared to the three items above.
21) Editor: Grouping of terrain pieces (5 votes)
I will definitely implement this at some point, simply because I like this feature so much. So don't be surprised if it is available even before some of the more-voted items got added.
Everything else has at the moment low priority for me. So don't expect them within the next half year.
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Everything else has at the moment low priority for me. So don't expect them within the next half year.
I would suggest you put em up for what I call "waves"
like what ever won just now is "Wave 1"
So you take what did get votes and then replace (If you want to) the ones that didn't get votes with another round of things people suggested elsewhere.
Then what ever wins there would be "Wave 2"
then repeat the process for as long as you desire to.
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16) New object: Exits that only permit a given number of lemmings (9 votes)
Here the main remaining issue to be discussed is the graphics. Wafflem already proposed a sign for it, but I prefer something slightly less glaring. At the moment I am thinking about using the locking animation of locked exits, but in the reverse direction.
Depending on what we choose here, I might even have to implement the idling animations (point 9 in the poll) first.
How about something like this: (Attachment)
Once the number reaches the limit the exit would lock up with an animation or alternatively show a blocked-sign, kinda like in Lix multiplayer.
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It could be done with less space by using a single number, that counts down rather than up. This worked well in Hungry Software's Ducks.
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I think I like the no sign better than locking up because that could easier distinguish it from a locked exit which is different. (atm) But if the numbers stay above maybe this doesn't matter...
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Thanks to everyone who participated in the vote! :thumbsup::thumbsup:
1) New skill: Shimmier (9 votes)
We already started discussing the mechanics. So it remains for me to work out the precise checks and then implement it. I will make a post once this is done, but before I actually start implementing anything.
16) New object: Exits that only permit a given number of lemmings (9 votes)
Here the main remaining issue to be discussed is the graphics. Wafflem already proposed a sign for it, but I prefer something slightly less glaring. At the moment I am thinking about using the locking animation of locked exits, but in the reverse direction.
Depending on what we choose here, I might even have to implement the idling animations (point 9 in the poll) first.
2) New skill: Jumper (7 votes)
Given that I have already the Shimmier on my list and the various critical voices regarding the jumper animation without tumbling, don't expect this any time soon. Ask me again once the shimmier is implemented and has seen about 2 months of usage to find and fix glitches.
21) Editor: Grouping of terrain pieces (5 votes)
I will definitely implement this at some point, simply because I like this feature so much. So don't be surprised if it is available even before some of the more-voted items got added.
Everything else has at the moment low priority for me. So don't expect them within the next half year.
Hate to bump this thread of all things but I've haven't heard a word on these features in months and I have to ask, When are we getting these?
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Hate to disappoint you, but at the moment I am just trying to stay ahead of the more severe bugs, and don't have any time for implementing big new features. It's so bad, that I haven't even looked at all the NepsterLems replays I got from josh and Akseli, because I rather used my time on bug-fixing (and a little bit of actually playing :P). So the current state is the following:
Shimmier: I did some preperatory work in cleaning up the sprite loading code, so that I now know what I have to do in order to load shimmier sprites. The core mechanics are pretty much laid out on paper, but not a single line of code is written in that regard.
Counting Exits: Nothing done so far, and will probably stay that way for a time, because it's my least favorite of these features.
Jumper: Internally the "jumper" was renamed to "ascender" to free this name for the actual jumper skill. Apart from that nothing was done, but the clean-up of the sprite-loading code helps here too. However don't expect anything soon, because I don't even have a clue at the moment about how a jumper should behave.
Piece grouping: Nothing changed here: The editor has fully functional code, but neither the nxlv format has a way to save such groups nor can the NeoLemmix player understand groups.