Lemmings Forums
NeoLemmix => NeoLemmix Main => Topic started by: namida on March 09, 2015, 06:06:35 AM
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Well, I think it's about time I got around to finishing up and releasing these tools, isn't it?
Converting Styles
To convert a style, you need the NeoLemmix Graphic Set Tool (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2098.0). (NOTE: if you're planning to convert the style at the same time as levels that use that style, see the section on converting levels - the tool for that can convert styles as well while it's converting the levels. This section is primarily for if you want to convert the style so you can use it for creating new levels, and thus don't have any levels you're wanting to convert alongside it.)
Here are the steps to convert a Cheapo style to a NeoLemmix one:
- Run the graphic set tool, and on the menu bar choose Import -> Cheapo
- In the file selection window that pops up, select the style file
- On the menu bar, choose File -> Save
- For the filename, it is recommended you use the same name as the graphic set had in Cheapo format; though if it is longer than 16 characters, name it with only the first 16 (eg: "BlahBlahLongStyleName.sty" should be saved as "BlahBlahLongStyl.dat")
- You can now use these output files with NeoLemmix and its editor
Please note that converted Cheapo styles are NOT compatible with traditional Lemmix, they are ONLY compatible with NeoLemmix. If you use Export -> GROUND/VGAGR, the output will more-or-less work fine graphically with regular Lemmix, but will almost certianly not work functionally. They won't work at all with DOS Lemmings. Also note that any object types that aren't supported by NeoLemmix will be converted, but they will come out as objects with no effect. As of V1.30n, the only object types not supported are the gravity changers; though do be aware that objects do not nessecerially function exactly the same way.
To use these with NeoLemmix Editor, I'm going to assume you have V1.29n or higher. In this case, all you have to do is copy/paste both output files into your "styles/NeoLemmix" or "styles/Cheapo" subfolder (in the editor folder) - which one you put them in doesn't matter functionally, it's just a preference thing for which header they appear under in the style selection menu. You may want to add a section to the styles.ini file (in the NeoLemmix or Cheapo folder) to give them a tidier name in the editor, but this is completely optional and they will function fine even without doing this; it's purely a cosmetic thing. If you do, the section to add (using "orig-dirt" as an example, and of course you can give it a different name if you want); this can be anywhere in the file as long as you don't insert it in the middle of another section:
[orig-dirt]
Name=Dirt (Cheapo)
To use these with NeoCustLemmix, just place them in the same folder as it, and they'll work. Likewise, for Flexi, handle them the same way as you would any other graphic set. Note that when playtesting levels from the editor, you don't need to put a seperate second copy of the styles in the main folder (in addition to the NeoLemmix styles folder); the editor can tell NeoCustLemmix where to find the files.
Converting Levels
For converting levels or level packs, you'll need CheapoCon (http://www.neolemmix.com/old/lemtools/CheapoCon.exe). These instructions relate to the GUI-based version of CheapoCon; if you have the old (text-based) version I would highly recommend getting the newer version as it works with NeoLemmix-format graphic sets (as well as being able to convert Cheapo graphic sets during the conversion, if you don't already have NeoLemmix-format conversions) and uses the latest level format, as well as producing smaller output files.
Here are the steps for converting a level or level pack:
- Put copies of all graphic sets used by the levels you are converting, into the same folder as the levels. These may be in either Cheapo or NeoLemmix format; in the case of the former, be sure to also put copies of any other graphic sets they refer to (most often Default.sty, but in some cases there may be others too).
- Run CheapoCon, and select the SET (or LEV) file for the source file.
- By default, the Output file and VGASPEC root will be set based on the input filename; if you'd like to change these, do so. Note that you don't have to put an absolute path for the output file; you can just put a filename.
- Click "Convert". CheapoCon will convert all of the levels in the source file; the output will be a single DAT file (based on the Output path) containing all the levels, plus one VGASPEC file for each level with the filename "X_<vgaspec root><level number>.dat". If any of the provided graphic sets were in Cheapo format, CheapoCon will also output NeoLemmix conversions of them.
The new GUI-based version of CheapoCon does not have a terrain-recognition algorithm like the command line one had; this is because even with the terrain-recognition algorithm being taken into account, the output files are still smaller with the new tool than they were with the old text-based one. Also, the output, while smaller in size, would generally be too messy for level-editing purposes, thus making it rather useless for any purpose other than reducing filesize.
Note that NeoLemmix V1.33n or newer must be used with GUI-based CheapoCon's output, due to it using the new variable-sized level format.
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(reserved post)
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Where do i get the styles from i have the extractor and Lemset V12.1
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The standard ones and a few extras come with Cheapo; the rest I'm not entirely sure where they can be found these days.
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There's a whole bunch of Cheapo styles here: http://www.garjen.co.uk/CheapoLemmings.php
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Thanks! Wasn't sure if the downloads (or the website at all, for that matter) were still there, since I know the forums were long gone; was going to check when I got home but ya beat me to it. :P
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Most of them are working. A couple aren't...
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Do you mean as in the downloads are working, or they aren't working with the conversion tools? If it's the latter, you'll need to discuss it with Essman if the issues are with the Cheapo Style Extractor, but let me know ASAP if there's issues on the LemSet side of things. :)
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Sorry, I meant a few of the download links were down on that site.
The conversion tool worked fine on all of the files.
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Awesome! :)
I'll probably include a fairly large collection of them by default in future editor (and NeoCustLemmix) releases, but before that I want to add support for the remaining Cheapo-exclusive object types, apart from the gravity changers since I don't plan to ever support inverted gravity in NeoLemmix. Still not completely sure how I'm going to go about handling two-way teleporters / single teleporters, since IIRC there aren't enough spare bytes in the object data to hold the destination position, but I'll work something out.
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I did find a lot of styles in this post (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1912.msg48138#msg48138) (in fact, the whole game) too; unfortunately, the download there since has not been working. You many want to ask mobius.
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Well im looking for the five styles from Copycat lemmings
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They're included with Cheapo. "Orig-Dirt", "Orig-Fire", etc.
Just as a note, you may want to wait until I put out another update. The next update (which will need an updated version of both NeoLemmix and LemSet; it won't need an editor update though the existing version may not display trigger areas accurately on some objects) will include support for all Cheapo object types except for gravity-changers (which I don't plan to ever support, and definitely not in the near future), and include the "official" Cheapo styles by default.
It shouldn't be too long; the LemSet update has already been made (but not uploaded), and the only remaining object to add support for in NeoLemmix itself is the triggered exits.
(An update for CheapoCon (and re-conversion of levels) will be nessecary only for levels that use two-way teleporters and have more than two of them. In this case, the VGASPEC will not need to be rebuilt, the existing one will be fine - it's just the LVL file that needs re-doing.)
EDIT: I've uploaded the LemSet update. This is to minimize the "multiple versions of same style" effect; all objects that aren't supported in the current version of NeoLemmix will still do nothing, but you won't need to re-convert the style when it's here, as versions made using LemSet V13 will already contain all the info the new update of NeoLemmix will need to utilize these objects. Do note that the current version of the editor won't display trigger areas properly for Two-Way Teleporters / Single Teleporters.
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Uploaded the update of CheapoCon. As I said, you'll generally only need to use the updated version for levels with multiple sets of two-way teleporters. I did however think of one additional case - in levels where two-way teleporters are used in place of regular teleporters/receivers, the new version might be nessecary for those too.
Of course, make sure that the copy of the style you provide to it is also converted with the updated version of LemSet.
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Minor bug in LemSet V13: LemSet will *say* "object type not supported" on Splat pads, and won't say it on Gravity changers. However, splat pads still are converted fine.
More majorly, there may be an issue with two-way teleporters and single teleporters, due to them being labelled differently in the extractor than they are in Cheapo's documentation. So I'll upload an update to fix all of these.
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Uploaded a fix. Additionally, I added code so that if it doesn't recognize a certain type of object, it'll mention this and wait for user input, rather than silently converting it as a do-nothing object. Let me know if you get this error message on any style.
Note that this is different from the error message that simply says "Object type not supported by NeoLemmix." That one only appears on object types that it does recognize, but NeoLemmix doesn't support; specifically the gravity changers. If it says "unrecognized", it means that LemSet doesn't recognize the type definition.
Another identified issue, which may take a bit longer to write a workaround for - due to file format limitations, each individual terrain piece (or object) can be no larger than 255x255 in size. Some Cheapo graphic sets - in particular, Garjen's space set - contain pieces larger than this. I don't know that there's much that can be done for objects, but for terrain pieces, it should be possible to write some code to split them into smaller pieces.
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I've converted a bunch of Cheapo graphic sets (coming from those included with Cheapo, as well as some from the Garjen site). You can get them here:
http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1921.msg49294#msg49294
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I found a lot of Cheapo styles in my old hard drive and all over the web, and I've placed them here (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zsc09q0i066vwml/AACHPlRoJDrbFJ951CBWrrnNa?dl=0).
There is also a more up-to-date version of the Lemmings Racers style in that link.
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I don't think the version of Lemming Racers in there is any newer? At a quick glance I'm not noticing any differences. If I'm wrong about this, I'll update it in the pack I uploaded.
Anyway, (at least at the moment) I'm not going to go through and convert all those - I don't really want to have multiple copies of essentially the same graphic set (which is also why I skipped some of the ones I had); but of course nothing is stopping anyone else from converting them with the tools. :)
For the things like the "____Lemmus" styles; I'll probably make a modification to CheapoCon that allows simply pointing them towards the style they're based off. Eg: You can tell it to use "Orig-Dirt" in place of "DirtLemmus". Since NeoLemmix graphic sets don't include music etc; these pairs are ultimately identical under NeoLemmix.
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Yeah, that version on Garjen is the up-to-date one. I didn't check that Cheapo pack until now.
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Anyway, (at least at the moment) I'm not going to go through and convert all those - I don't really want to have multiple copies of essentially the same graphic set (which is also why I skipped some of the ones I had); but of course nothing is stopping anyone else from converting them with the tools. :)
For the things like the "____Lemmus" styles; I'll probably make a modification to CheapoCon that allows simply pointing them towards the style they're based off. Eg: You can tell it to use "Orig-Dirt" in place of "DirtLemmus". Since NeoLemmix graphic sets don't include music etc; these pairs are ultimately identical under NeoLemmix.
Okay, what I did to make things more convenient is to make two folders. One has the new styles as far as I know, and the others that have "Lemmus" "Musics" etc. I put them in another folder. I also took out the styles that are already in Cheapo Pack 1.
New styles (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zsc09q0i066vwml/AACHPlRoJDrbFJ951CBWrrnNa?dl=0)
Same terrain and objects, different musics. (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n2dj7yqhx39ombp/AACBw_DTUWrbwYVf306dWdUba?dl=0)
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SMB style wont extract with CheapStyle.exe.
Error message: Invalid style file.
That was downloaded from your link, Namida. So if it is corrupt you might want to delete it!
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Did you mean the collection pack? Those are already converted.
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SMB style wont extract with CheapStyle.exe.
Error message: Invalid style file.
That was downloaded from your link, Namida. So if it is corrupt you might want to delete it!
Try this one: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9q99t0k0iu07bh8/AADVXldGQ7L1u7scDn7VBEkDa?dl=
I got it from this post (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1912.msg49072#msg49072).
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Got it. Thank you. :)
Not sure why the extractor wouldn't extract it though. :/
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Updated the original post with instructions on how to do the conversion using the new NeoLemmix Graphic Set Tool. :) Although it's probably not really much simpler than doing it with LemSet (not that it was difficult to do with LemSet in the first place), this tool will probably feel a lot friendlier.
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The first part works but I'm having problems using the CheapoCon. It seems to go well but at the "rebuilding level" stage it hangs up and an error message says: "out of memory" then crashes.
It creates a dat file but it's empty.
Do you only need the style files to be in the same folder as the Essman's level converter or is that needed for the second part as well? I got the same result with a single level and a set.
Is it normal if the "large" png files are missing the objects from the pics? The objects appear in the small pics. ???
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You need the converted style (has to be in old format (ie: v_xxx and g_xxx); CheapoCon hasn't been updated to support the new format yet) in the same folder as CheapoCon. You don't need the style files when extracting the levels via Essman's converter. (The reason for this is that Essman's tool just needs to know "Object A, of type B, exists at position X, Y", whereas in some cases CheapoCon needs the graphic set to look up exactly what *type* of object it is too.)
And yes, it's completely normal for the objects to be missing from the large PNG file. The large PNG file is the level's terrain layout (this is how Cheapo works - the level layout just becomes a single large image, rather than being made up of smaller pieces as eg a Lemmix level would be), while the small one is the preview screen image (hence why it does include the objects).
Conversion to SuperLemmini is possible but a bit tricky at the moment - I'd hold off on that until I release an updated (or replacement) tool, but if you do really want to do it, convert it to a NeoLemmix level the usual way (but with zero passes on the terrain detector), create a SuperLemmini version of the graphic set, and use NeoLemmix Editor to convert the NeoLemmix level. For creating the special graphic PNG file, use the normal-size one from the extractor's output; you'll need to resize it (losslessly; use "Nearest Neighbour" if your graphics editor offers you a choice of resize filters) to double the size, then replace all the black background with transparent. You might also need to slightly adjust the positions of any objects that are horizontally flipped - the old NeoLemmix graphic set format required their widths to be padded to multiples of 8, and CheapoCon did account for this when converting the levels. This will mean that horizontally flipped objects are slightly off-position when using a SuperLemmini (or even new-format NeoLemmix) graphic set, where the widths can be used as-is.
I'll probably look into doing an updated tool over the next few days; quite possibly including removing the intermediate step of having to use Essman's tools.
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where are the Cheapo style versions of the original pillar/marble/fire/crystal and dirt sets? the ones that appear in Neolemmmix are the newer custom made ones that only vaguely resemble them.
I can't find them in the Cheapo folders yet they must be there since plenty of levels like those by Ben Bryant use them. ???
the rock, snow, brick and bubble sets look almost identical to the original but the others are total recreations.
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my best guess is here
http://www.neolemmix.com/old/neolemmixeditor.html
it has a link to the newest version of neolemmix editor (if you haven't got it already)
and the addon cheapo sets
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where are the Cheapo style versions of the original pillar/marble/fire/crystal and dirt sets? the ones that appear in Neolemmmix are the newer custom made ones that only vaguely resemble them.
I can't find them in the Cheapo folders yet they must be there since plenty of levels like those by Ben Bryant use them. ???
the rock, snow, brick and bubble sets look almost identical to the original but the others are total recreations.
These haven't been included in NeoLemmix or the addon style pack, but if I'm not mistaken a copy of the style files are included with Cheapo itself? From there, you can simply run them through Essman's extractor, then through either GSTool or LemSet. (I'm aiming to make the extractor no longer needed as of the next update to GSTool, ie: allow it to work with STY files directly.)
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The recent Graphic Set Tool update enabled loading Cheapo styles directly, without the use of Essman's extractor.
I plan to write a whole new replacement for CheapoCon that'll do the same for levels. While this could be built into the level editor, I think it'd work better as a seperate app.
As well as just converting the levels, I plan to make it also able to pack them into DATs and create an accompanying SYSTEM.DAT file, allowing it to more or less output a ready-to-use set of data files that can be used with the Flexi player.
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big thanks for the help and the new extractor. :thumbsup:
where are the Cheapo style versions of the original pillar/marble/fire/crystal and dirt sets? the ones that appear in Neolemmmix are the newer custom made ones that only vaguely resemble them.
I can't find them in the Cheapo folders yet they must be there since plenty of levels like those by Ben Bryant use them. ???
the rock, snow, brick and bubble sets look almost identical to the original but the others are total recreations.
I found them: there titled "Michael pink/Micheal dirt" etc... [as well as the ONML sets]
You might find interesting; he also has a style "Micheal xtnd" styles which are the Special level graphics from Original game but split up into actual pieces instead of one big piece.
Question: each style is duplicated (or I think) that is there's a "Michael Blue" then a "Michael Blue2". They seem identical? Is this important?
Btw, I'm using a version of Cheapo which geoo gave me long ago. It has a huge number of levels and styles but I don't know if it's the definitive version. If anyone wants maybe I should upload this somewhere? [here?]
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Question: each style is duplicated (or I think) that is there's a "Michael Blue" then a "Michael Blue2". They seem identical? Is this important?
They just have different music. Cheapo allows each style to have up to 40 music tracks, and back when I had big plans for a Cheapo level megapack, I wanted to include more different tracks than this, so I made two copies of each style, with different music as follows:
MichaelBlue
1-17: ccexplore's remakes of Original Lemmings tracks
18, 19, 21: ccexplore's remakes of Beast, Menacing, BeastII (slot 20 was left open for Awesome, but ccexplore never got round to doing it)
22-27: ccexplore's remakes of ONML tracks
28-38: Lemmings 3 or 3D tracks (can't remember which)
39-40: Repton and Repton 3 music
MichaelBlue2
1-17: same
18-20: extra tracks in SMS Lemmings
21-30: Lemmings 3 or 3D (whichever one isn't used in the other style)
31: "The Lamp and the Sun" (my own setting to music of a poem by my then-girlfriend (yes, the same one who appears in my "Lemmings of the ZBB" level))
32: "One-Winged Angel" from Final Fantasy VII
33-40: a selection from Adam's remakes of Original Lemmings tracks (at one point I had Sailor Moon music in these slots, but the copies I have on my computer at the moment have the Lemmings tracks)
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Btw, I'm using a version of Cheapo which geoo gave me long ago. It has a huge number of levels and styles but I don't know if it's the definitive version. If anyone wants maybe I should upload this somewhere? [here?]
I don't think there is a "definitive" version as such. I remember that a long time ago when I first discovered it, via Essman sending it to me via email, it also included a Spice Girls-themed graphic set that I don't think I've seen anywhere since; as well as a couple of extra level packs that aren't in the version generally found online.
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Question: each style is duplicated (or I think) that is there's a "Michael Blue" then a "Michael Blue2". They seem identical? Is this important?
They just have different music. Cheapo allows each style to have up to 40 music tracks, and back when I had big plans for a Cheapo level megapack, I wanted to include more different tracks than this, so I made two copies of each style, with different music as follows:
MichaelBlue
1-17: ccexplore's remakes of Original Lemmings tracks
18, 19, 21: ccexplore's remakes of Beast, Menacing, BeastII (slot 20 was left open for Awesome, but ccexplore never got round to doing it)
22-27: ccexplore's remakes of ONML tracks
28-38: Lemmings 3 or 3D tracks (can't remember which)
39-40: Repton and Repton 3 music
MichaelBlue2
1-17: same
18-20: extra tracks in SMS Lemmings
21-30: Lemmings 3 or 3D (whichever one isn't used in the other style)
31: "The Lamp and the Sun" (my own setting to music of a poem by my then-girlfriend (yes, the same one who appears in my "Lemmings of the ZBB" level))
32: "One-Winged Angel" from Final Fantasy VII
33-40: a selection from Adam's remakes of Original Lemmings tracks (at one point I had Sailor Moon music in these slots, but the copies I have on my computer at the moment have the Lemmings tracks)
No remake for "AWESOME"? noooooooo D:
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apologize if this was already covered:
some levels use no style at all, images were copy and pasted into the editor. Could those level be converted? how?
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They still use a style; it's just harder to tell which one. The easiest way to tell is usually by looking at its objects; if this doesn't help, try looking at the level's XML file after extracting it with Essman's tool.
They definitely can be converted. Even levels that do use a style, it's almost impossible to revert them to actual terrain pieces, because Cheapo doesn't save terrain pieces like Lemmix / Lemmini / Lix do; it's just one huge image (essentially, when you place any terrain piece, you're just copying and pasting from the style's terrain graphics, rather than actually placing a piece as such). Thus, the conversion tools work by creating a VGASPEC based on this level image, and because of this, it makes virtually no difference whether the level is copied/pasted images or actual terrain pieces from the style. (The only difference is that terrain check passes aren't likely to acheive much if it's a copied/pasted image.)
By the way, I haven't forgotten about the updated tool! I just... haven't done much about it yet, due to spending my Lemmings time on LPIV and NeoLemmix fixes instead. :P
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Okay, I finally started working on the updated tool. As I said, it's going to work directly from SET / LEV files rather than requiring the use of Essman's extractor; it'll also be a GUI application rather than a command line-style thing. And, it'll use the newer NeoLemmix formats, not the old ones.
So far, I've successfully managed to extract a SET file back to LEV files. In practice the tool won't have to do this to output files, but will have to do it in memory, so simply outputting these to files was a good way to test that SET extraction was working.
I'm also going to include functionality to convert the graphic sets in it, as it's already re-using enough GSTool code (in order to create the output VGASPEC files) that this is a very small jump to include (and most of the code to do so can also be copied from GSTool).
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So, I just put it through its first full-scale test run, and it worked VERY impressively. There was a minor issue with the skillset, but that's all - everything else seems to have worked perfectly, at least at a quick glance.
The skillset issue is that it sets the number of climbers to 8, and shifts all other skills one to the right (eg: if the original level had 5 bombers, the converted level will have 5 blockers instead). Going to look into that now.
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Okay so, I've finally put together a new tool.
This can work directly from a set file, rather than needing Essman's extractor first. It still needs copies of the graphic sets to be in the same folder as the input level set files; these can be in either Cheapo format (STY) or NeoLemmix format (single DAT file; it doesn't support ground/vgagr combo). In the case they're in STY format, it'll automatically create DAT format versions of them during the conversion.
Note that if using STY files, you must also have copies of any other STY files that are referred to - most commonly Default.sty, but in some cases you may need others.
The new version doesn't have anything like the old version's terrain rebuilder option - the results are quite messy behind-the-scenes, and between the new graphic set format and the more-efficient DAT compression code, the filesizes aren't too bad anyway.
Try it out and let me know if you run into any issues. :)
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There don't seem to be any issues with the new tool as far as bad output goes, so I've updated the original post with a link to the new tool, and instructions on how to use it rather than how to use the old one. This means Essman's tools are no longer nessecary for converting any Cheapo content to NeoLemmix (though they may still be useful for conversion to other engines; and indeed I would not have been able to make these tools that work directly from STY / SET / LEV files without access to the source code to Essman's tools, so they were definitely very helpful!).
The new tool does still need some improvement in terms of user-friendliness, though I would say it's already more user-friendly than the old one was.
One feature I would like to add is detecting if a style takes *all* its data from other styles (or at least all the data that's relevant in a conversion to NeoLemmix; so not worrying about stuff such as music or preview screen backgrounds) and if so, using that style instead. This would be useful with, say, the "Lemmus" styles, which just replicate the Orig-xxxx/OhNo-xxxx styles with different musics.
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Anyway, (at least at the moment) I'm not going to go through and convert all those - I don't really want to have multiple copies of essentially the same graphic set (which is also why I skipped some of the ones I had); but of course nothing is stopping anyone else from converting them with the tools. :)
For the things like the "____Lemmus" styles; I'll probably make a modification to CheapoCon that allows simply pointing them towards the style they're based off. Eg: You can tell it to use "Orig-Dirt" in place of "DirtLemmus". Since NeoLemmix graphic sets don't include music etc; these pairs are ultimately identical under NeoLemmix.
Here are some more Cheapo Styles I have managed to convert. I made sure not to include the ones that are basically exact copies of the Cheapo-Orig and Cheapo-OhNo styles with different musics. There are some styles with the same terrain but different objects, and vice versa.
They are Adventure, Cube, Dr. Who, dragon, Duke Nuke-lem, Dust, Gblems, Generic, hellspawn1, Islanders, ISWorld, Judge-Lemm, the Classic Style of Lemmings 3, Monkey, Oldies, Prince, RedDragons, RedDragons2, Repton, Rev-Concept (basically Cheapo graphics version of Lemmings Revolution), Super Mario Bros., Space (Garjen version, not the LPIV version), Spice Girls, Lemmings 2 Sports style, Style1 (a mix of Cheapo Dirt Terrain and Cheapo Bubble objects), Supaplex, Ultimate, Xstyle and Xtnd-Dirt.
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I'll put that up on the website, though I'll remove a few of them:
- Generic: If it's the one I'm thinking of, it just contains a single terrain piece which is just text telling the user to "create a style in MS Paint", and objects from Orig-Columns. It doesn't belong in a style pack.
- Style1: If it's just terrain from one and objects from another, I don't see the point in that either. I'd rather the addon packs be actually *new* styles, not just old ones mixed-and-matched in different ways.
- Space, Xstyle: These are already included in Cheapo Pack #1.
That's just off the top of my head; I'll need to look through them. If I remember correctly (but I don't for sure), Islanders was also just Tribes-Beach with different lemming graphics? Some of those other names also sound like they might've been among the list of ones I considered but didn't convert. On the other hand, some will definitely be nice to put into a Cheapo pack, such as SMB, Spice and Sports.
I'll look at them in more detail tomorrow before putting anything up. Of course, those I don't put up, you are more than welcome to distribute them still - I don't hold exclusive rights to distributing NeoLemmix content (I'm sure there's some obscure legal argument I could use to say that I do have that; but it'll be a cold day in hell before I actually try to do so), and I definitely don't hold exclusive rights to Cheapo content. :P It's just a matter of wanting some degree of standards with what's actually presented on the NeoLemmix website.
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thanks to everyone whose been converting styles! :thumbsup:
I don't want to ask anyone to convert for me; but if you are for just whatever; can you convert all of Proxima's styles? [Michaelxxx (rehashes of original styles), the Prince of Persia, and the mixed original special graphics style]
The reason I haven't done it myself yet is because I ran into lots of trouble and hadn't the time to work it out yet.
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I don't want to ask anyone to convert for me; but if you are for just whatever; can you convert all of Proxima's styles? [Michaelxxx (rehashes of original styles), the Prince of Persia, and the mixed original special graphics style]
"Prince" was mentioned in DynaLem's post. "Repton" is also one of mine -- it uses graphics from the Repton series of games (obviously). I made four levels with this style, of which three made it into the Lix community set as "Prelude", "Toccata" and "Finale"; the other one was dropped because it uses teleporters.
I should add, you have my permission to distribute all graphics I made. (Of course, the graphics of my Cheapo styles are mostly converted from Lemmings and other games, but I did design some new traps, including the one that inspired the factory trap in Lix).
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ok--disregard my post for the most part--- I have most of these already converted anyway :XD::XD: . It's the level conversion I was having trouble with.
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If I remember correctly (but I don't for sure), Islanders was also just Tribes-Beach with different lemming graphics? Some of those other names also sound like they might've been among the list of ones I considered but didn't convert. On the other hand, some will definitely be nice to put into a Cheapo pack, such as SMB, Spice and Sports.
Yep, the only differences between Islanders and Tribes-Beach are the entrance and a modified version of the exit.
I don't want to ask anyone to convert for me; but if you are for just whatever; can you convert all of Proxima's styles? [Michaelxxx (rehashes of original styles), the Prince of Persia, and the mixed original special graphics style]
"Prince" was mentioned in DynaLem's post. "Repton" is also one of mine -- it uses graphics from the Repton series of games (obviously). I made four levels with this style, of which three made it into the Lix community set as "Prelude", "Toccata" and "Finale"; the other one was dropped because it uses teleporters.
I should add, you have my permission to distribute all graphics I made. (Of course, the graphics of my Cheapo styles are mostly converted from Lemmings and other games, but I did design some new traps, including the one that inspired the factory trap in Lix).
Here is Pack 3, which contains Proxima's styles, some styles from the Sega Master System (Fire, Pink, Multistyle), and an interesting style called concept. The objects in this one I believe came from a Lemmings website that discussed the earlier designs of lemmings and traps, but I can't remember which website it was. This style does not have an exit, so I've added the exit from the Cheapo Fire style into this one (to be consistent with the terrain that also comes from the Cheapo Fire).
There is a problem; it won't let me convert MichaelXtnd2.sty because it gives me that pesky List index out of bounds (127) error. I've attached this one separately.
I have a feeling that there was a style I forgot to convert, so I gotta look through all those again...
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Awesome. I still need to look over these (just woke up actually). I'll try and get it done later today; if that doesn't happen I probably won't be able to until the weekend.
EDIT: Regarding MichaelXtnd2; I'll have to look into what's causing the issue here (I can confirm that the error occurs for me too). As for the other styles, I'm looking through them now. :)
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Here's a ZIP of the ones I decided against including (so that they can be found easily, without overlap with the accepted ones).
The accepted ones have been added to the NeoLemmix website.
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You're free to use any of those extracted tilesets in own levels, right?
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Absolutely.
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Well i'd like to see all L2 and L3 tilesets in neolemmix
because i'd like to use those eventually
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Well i'd like to see all L2 and L3 tilesets in neolemmix
because i'd like to use those eventually
While the Beach, Egyptian, Shadow, Sports, and L3 Classic styles have been released as graphic sets, whether for NeoLemmix or (Super)Lemmini, nothing else of the sort was released. However, geoo did manage to get the extracted images of the L2 tilesets in this post (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2058.msg49964#msg49964).
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I successfully converted Proxima's cheapo set and mostly it's worked fine. But I ran into one problem on "Lemmings of Persia." A message says: "source rectangle invalid."
So far the other levels work fine.
I attached the levelpack and style files. check my next post
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0kb? nothing is in there
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??? Sorry. I think I fixed it here. (I think the filesize was too large) I had files in the folder you didn't need anyway)
I have another question;
I'd like to add a secret trigger to one of Proxima's styles. Can I do that with the graphics tool?
I tried opening Cheapo styles in there but it doesn't work [nothing happens but there's no message either]
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Which style were you having problems with? PM me if you don't want to say here (eg. to avoid hinting at which level the secret is in).
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Found a bug in the existing version; a level with a title longer than 32 letters or an author longer than 16 letters could potentially mess up other parts of the level data. In the case of the author, it'd have to be at least 49 characters long to mess up anything other than the level's title, but the title was a bit more prone to it. Uploaded a fixed version.
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I'm in the process of converting Cheapo levels to NeoLemmix, and I've started with the levels that initially came with the game, so that would be:
6 levels using Lemmings DOS graphics mixed with Copycat versions of the styles.
20 Crazy levels by Kallex
20 Wild levels by Kallex
32 Madness levels by McAleec and McAleead
15 Spain levels by A. Javier Saband
1 Individual level by Kallex titled "Bomber Test"
I've converted the levels in sets using CheapoCon. I've noticed some issues, though:
1. In some levels, the water doesn't cover all the way from left to right.
2. The trapdoor seems to be off by one pixel to the left or right, causing the lemmings to splat. Perhaps this may be related to the issue that lemmings move one pixel to the left when splatting.
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In regards to the misplaced water, I'll look into it. Could you tell me exactly which level this is, so I can test any fixes on a level where the issue is known to occur?
On the other hand, in regards to the window position, they're definitely in the same spot as far as the image goes. Do keep in mind that NeoLemmix is not Cheapo and doesn't aim to perfectly replicate it; there are some features specifically added to improve compatibility (ie: implementation of all Cheapo object types except gravity changers (although some don't function exactly the same way), and the "Cheapo Mode" option), but at the end of the day, there will always be levels that need some manual touching up. This level may just be one of those.
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In regards to the misplaced water, I'll look into it. Could you tell me exactly which level this is, so I can test any fixes on a level where the issue is known to occur?
Here's the Madness pack that includes the level with the water issue (Madnessweb29.lvl and x_Madnessweb29.dat). In fact, there have been a couple of levels with that issue.
It also includes all the converted styles, as well as the original .sty and .set files.
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Alright. I'll probably look into this sometime tomorrow, and if I can find the problem, put out an update of CheapoCon. :) My first guess would be that the object is placed at a negative coordinate and CheapoCon is either reading or writing that incorrectly, but it's not impossible that it's more complicated than that.
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Another thing: the level preview screens in Cheapo have preview text under them that introduces the level. Is it possible to have the preview text (as well as hints) extracted as TXT files?
Also, in Cheapo, Lemmings die when they walk to the left and right sides of the screen; this doesn't happen in a Cheapo-to-NeoLemmix level
Should the colored background of a Cheapo level be retained when converting the level to NeoLemmix?
There are also some levels that have their release rate over 99.
Found another issue in Madness: the clouds of Madness 8 "In a Dark, Dark House" have disappeared.
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I've found and fixed the source of the disappearing objects issue - as I thought, it was simply not handling negative coordinates correctly.
I don't intend to do anything about the sides of levels. NeoLemmix doesn't support any form of storing a background color in a level's data, so that isn't going to be implemented either. Nor would it properly support release rates greater than 99 - indeed, I don't even think Cheapo and NeoLemmix use the same algorithm for how release rate works (NeoLemmix's is identical to that of DOS / standard Lemmix), and I wouldn't know what Cheapo's is. Even if I did - as I keep stating, the goal here isn't to perfectly replicate Cheapo gameplay; as such, levels may in some cases need to be tidied up after conversion.
I've uploaded the update to fix the negative position issue. At some point I'll look into extracting the preview / hint texts.
To be clear - it'll fix issues with negative positions of objects or steel/oneway areas. Terrain should never have been affected in the first place.
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Sorry for the off-topicness, but where did you get those styles? I'd really like the jungle and night city ones.
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The "night city" one is the Shadow style from Lemmings 2. A NeoLemmix conversion of the Cheapo version of this style exists in Cheapo Style Pack #1. Otherwise, there's also a Lemmini version of this style, which can easily be converted to NeoLemmix (you could consider asking IchoTolot, as he used this in his level pack which he's recently converted to NeoLemmix); Lemmini styles are more similar to NeoLemmix ones so should work better overall, but it should be noted that converted Lemmini styles won't support autosteel (unless they're manually modified to support it, which isn't a very hard task), whereas converted Cheapo styles will support it.
Not 100% sure on the other one.
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The jungle one is in this post (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2070.msg51468#msg51468) as monkey.dat.
On the other hand, the water and the clouds is fixed now. Thanks! All I need to do now is a some tweaking, and probably wait until the preview/hints are extractable (may not be in the first release), then I can release the player!
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I know this is unrelated but i want that skill bar from that ice cheapo level
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I don't know which level, but in case this helps, here's the Stands file I used for both MichaelSnow sets.
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thank you
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In addition to converting the SET files to the DAT files, is it also possible to have the LVL files directly extracted from the converted Cheapo set? I'm making Flexi packs for all the Cheapo levels, and I don't want to go through the trouble of using the NeoLemmix DAT Manager to get the levels out.
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Absolutely possible, since it goes via LVL files (in memory) anyway. I'll add the option.
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Done. Added both the option to save LVL files, and the option to save preview / hint texts.
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Thank you so much for this! :thumbsup:
One more question before I start releasing the converted levels - should I include levels that have gravity changers/upside down lemmings in them, or exclude them? I don't know if you'll support those in the future.
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I don't plan to anytime soon.
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Slightly off-topic - just wanted to pop my head in here to say I didn't realise some of this stuff still existed! Me and my elder brother, under the names McAleeAd and McAleeC (which later gained an extra 'h' on the end, though I think by that point I'd stopped doing levels), were the ones who created the "Madness" set of levels back in the day, along with many of the styles such as the Monkey IsLemms (still remember having fun doing the Lemming sprites on that one), the Shadow style (which we botched together from a combination of DOS and SNES Lemmings 2 screenshots with some recoloured parts of the red brick ONML style) and more. As I recall, the first style we ever did was the "Islanders" style my brother made, which was basically the Cheapo Beach style with different Lemmings/Exit and brown clams. I was quite a young kid at the time - don't even think I was quite at secondary school age, so this is going way, way back!
As I recall, I don't think Cheapo was available online when we started making levels - certainly if it was then it wasn't easily findable. All we knew of it was some screenshots on the creator's website. I seem to recall my brother eventually e-mailing the creator (who I see also frequents these forums - hi!) and asking if we could have a copy to play around with, though no idea if I'm remembering correctly there!
I recognise the "Ghost Pirate LemChuck" and "In a Dark, Dark House" levels from the screenshots. I also remember doing one in the Shadow style shaped like a massive "21", as well as a very tall red-brick level with both inverted and normal gravity. No idea if that's in the "Madness" set, though, and it sounds like NeoLemmix wouldn't support that one anyway. I seem to recall my design process usually involved making something I thought looked cool and fitting the gameplay around that, rather than planning out intricate puzzles, so apologies if anyone thinks my levels are a bit rubbish! Would love to have a crack at making some new ones now - will have to look into how to do things with NeoLemmix at some point.
Some of the stuff we did - such as the unfinished "Dust" style - was just messing around and never really meant to be distributed. I seem to recall doing a style based on the Lemmings concept animation (with the red Lemmings that have blue hair), but again that was just messing around, so I don't know if it was ever distributed. Truth be told, I have no idea how our stuff actually got online - I think my brother must have just uploaded a ton of the stuff we had laying around after finding a Cheapo level community in later years or something. Good job too, or all of that stuff would've been lost to time!
I'd be very interested in taking a trip down memory lane and seeing what we put together back then - I know there's a chunk of stuff that's been converted (and adapted) to work with NeoLemmix, and I'll definitely have to check that out at some point. However, I'd also be very interested in checking them out in their native Cheapo environment and experiencing them exactly as me and my brother created them back in the day. I don't suppose any kind soul would be able to point me to where I can find the game, as well as the "Madness" level pack and accompanying styles?
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You can get Cheapo here: http://teamhellspawn.com/lemmings/tools.htm
However, it doesn't tend to work very well on newer PCs, which was one of the main motivations in creating tools for converting the content to NeoLemmix. If you've got an old PC lying around, you could try firing that up to run it.
Anyway, welcome to the forums! :)
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Thanks namida - very much appreciated! Should have guessed it might not work well on newer PCs - will have to give it a try and see if I can get it running. If it doesn't work, at least I know I can wait for DynaLem's lovingly-converted NeoLemmix versions to be able to experience most of the levels we made back then.
It's really great to see that you've added support for Cheapo levels (and, I see, its predecessor Copycat Lemmings too) in NeoLemmix. I know the Cheapo levels don't function 100% the same, since the inverted gravity isn't supported and the underlying game had some differences to the official ones, but it's great to see that a lot of the content people created for it back in the day hasn't just been forgotten and left to rot. = )
Will definitely have to get hold of NeoLemmix and learn how to make some levels for it. Starting to feel like I've been bitten by the Lemmings bug again after all these years...! = D
EDIT: Seems to run OK on my PC, though runs at an incorrect aspect ratio. Seems like the pack's mostly my brother's levels - a shame a couple of ones I remember don't seem to have made it in. Mind you, I was pretty young back when we were making them so I'm guessing they probably weren't as good as I thought and my brother simply didn't feel they were good enough to include! = P Still, should be a fun trip down memory lane - looking forward to going through them when I have a bit of free time! = D
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It's really great to see that you've added support for Cheapo levels (and, I see, its predecessor Copycat Lemmings too) in NeoLemmix.
Not directly. NeoLemmix itself can't actually use any Cheapo files; but the NeoLemmix Graphic Set tool can load (but not save) Cheapo graphic sets, while a seperate tool exists to convert levels (it can also convert the graphic sets at the same time; for this purpose, it actually just re-uses some code from the Graphic Set Tool). A few object types were specifically implemented for the purpose of Cheapo compatibility, such as two-way teleporters (which reminds me, I encountered a fairly major glitch with these that I might have to break my "no more updates" rule for...).
Copycat Lemmings's data isn't supported at all; the NeoLemmix version of Copycat Lemmings is actually a conversion of a conversion - it's based off the Cheapo versions of the styles and levels.
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Sorry, yes - should have been clearer. I meant it's nice to see that there's support for at least converting some of the existing levels to be compatible with NeoLemmix, rather than implying that NeoLemmix was able to use the original data files. = )
Didn't realise the Copycat Lemmings levels were conversions of Cheapo conversions of those levels, though - I wasn't aware there'd been Cheapo versions of those created, though I suppose it makes sense as the same styles existed in Cheapo too. Sounds like it's been quite the process to preserve those particular levels!
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Well, the Copycat Lemmings levels were the original "test dummies" for the Cheapo->Neolemmix conversion. :P So in that way, a lot more effort went into them than did with anything else. But ultimately, Essman provided the Cheapo conversions himself, and I would assume he automated it for the most part; for me, it was no more work than it would've been to use any other randomly-selected Cheapo content. Perhaps my motivation for choosing it was my preference for large fangame-style packs over smaller ones. Certianly, there are slight issues that suggest an automatic conversion; such as some traps that don't function properly due to differences in trigger area sizes (these issues being present in both Cheapo and NeoLemmix; but not in *true* Copycat Lemmings).
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As I recall, I don't think Cheapo was available online when we started making levels - certainly if it was then it wasn't easily findable. All we knew of it was some screenshots on the creator's website. I seem to recall my brother eventually e-mailing the creator (who I see also frequents these forums - hi!) and asking if we could have a copy to play around with, though no idea if I'm remembering correctly there!
Hi! I still have the last email from you from 2001. You guys were producing a lot of cool stuff.
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Wow McAleeCh, I think you had already left when I joined 10 years ago, but I remember your name from reading the LUDB forum back when archives of it were still available. And of course I remember you as authors of various tile sets. I've seen your name on the Sonic Retro forums too, is that you?
I need to dig out my old Cheapo folder once I have access to it again in a month (I think I lost an a lot more extensive folder at some point in 2005 or so), there might be a bit more in that than in the vanilla Cheapo folder from team hellspawn.
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Thanks Essman - glad to hear you liked the stuff we produced way back in the day! = ) I'm impressed you still have our last e-mail to you - I don't think I have anything from that far back anymore, thanks to a combination of changing both machines and accounts several times over the years. It also proves that the memory cheats, as I would've been in secondary school back in 2001 - so it wasn't quite as long ago as I'd thought going from memory.
Also - geoo, yep, same McAleeCh as on the Sonic Retro forums. Hi there! = D Would be very interested to see if you have any more Cheapo goodies that aren't included in the Team Hellspawn pack. I know there were a lot more packed-in levels with the version we originally had back in the day, including many with a pink Spice Girls level style,= as mentioned elsewhere in the topic. Seem to recall one of their heads was a hazard in that one - think it was Posh Spice, but can't remember clearly.
Tried running Cheapo when I had some spare time - got one level to work and then after that it crashed every time it tried to load a pre or post-level text screen, even after restarting the program. So unless I fancy restarting my machine between each level, it looks like I'll be waiting for DynaLem's converted versions before going on a nostalgia trip through our old creations. Might try and see if I can familiarise myself with NeoLemmix in the meantime! = )
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I dont want to bump this thread (if you can consider this bumping but)
I want to make an edit to the green hill set, like add some objects
Edit: Adding Preplaced lemmings is easier than i though, i worried too much (god i am stupid)
Update:I have made a "Halloween" edit of Green hill, i'll release it after its tested :thumbsup: