Post by: geoo on March 13, 2013, 12:08:51 AM
If you missed the contest, here is the main topic:
http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=726.0
Solutions and statistics are attached to this post. The levelpacks and level archive can be found here: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=726.msg15908#msg15908
Though it was a bit of work for me, I enjoyed the contest a lot. I think the levels produced here were really great. I'd like to post the pack with the levels on the levelpack database in a bit, once the remaining backroutes have been fixed (I think Gronkling's, Akseli's and Crane's levels still have backroutes, and I hope I'll get Crane's intended solution soon.)
ccexplore also suggested:
Quote
Overall, like you said, there are no bad/trivial/Tame levels, everyone's levels provide a little bit to a lot of challenge in their own way. It would be worth considering getting as many of the levels into the Lix community pack as the level authors are ok with, as they are all pretty high-quality levels.
I think that's definitely a good idea, if there are no objections.
Anyway, on to the results. First off, who solved how many first and how many final versions, respectively. (A * indicates I didn't receive the corresponding replays, a # indicates that I'm not entirely sure whether I got all levels solved, i.e. I might be missing that some more levels have been solved.)
We have a 5-way tie at the top with players who managed to solve all levels from the first version pack. For the final versions we have the same five players who've manage to solve at least 8 level, but only ccexplore (and geoo, the author) manage to solve the remaining level, 'Stroke at Retirement Age'. Detailled data on who solved what are in the stats spreadsheet.
First versions solved
| name | amount |
| Akseli | 9 |
| Gronkling | 9 |
| ccexplore | 9 |
| Clam | 9 |
| geoo | 9 |
| Pooty | 7 |
| Proxima | 7 |
| Steve | 6 |
| Crane# | 4 |
| möbius*# | 3 |
Final versions solved
| name | amount |
| ccexplore | 9 |
| geoo | 9 |
| Akseli | 8 |
| Gronkling | 8 |
| Clam | 8 |
| Pooty | 5 |
| Proxima | 3 |
| Crane# | 2 |
| Steve | 2 |
| möbius*# | 2 |
Next, prettiest and most fun levels. If you're wondering about the fractions in the following two tables:
ccexplore came up with the wonderful idea to distribute fractional votes (wish I had thought of that myself, would have made things a lot easier. Turns out they also serve as tie breaker now, breaking a tie by 0.01 point.
) Crane also told me which levels he'd have put his other votes on (that I received a bit too late), which is reflected by the (+1) (one of them indicating the alleviated -1 penalty).But now, without further ado, best looking and most fun rankings (individual votes again in the spreadsheet):
Best looking
| level | author | points |
| Stroke at Retirement Age | geoo | 11.99 |
| Evacuating a Retirement Home | Clam | 10.93 (+1) |
| The Isle of Skye | Gronkling | 10.11 (+1) |
| Prize Catch | Crane | 9.24 (+1) |
| A sea of purest green | Pooty | 6.11 |
| Tres Hombres | möbius | 5 |
| Feel the Pressure | Akseli | 1.62 |
| The "Hole in the Head" Gang | Steve | 0 |
| Brute Fours | Proxima | 0 |
Comments:
Quote from: Steve
3: geoo (this is better than any of the dirt levels in Lemmoings or ONML iirc, well done)
1: Crane (Like the theme, wish the solution were as cohesive)
1: Gronkling (again, a nice looking level in a style I never use, good work)
1: Clam (if only for the design idea)
Quote from: Clam
3 votes: Prize Catch. Exquisite and imposing.
2 votes: The Isle of Skye. This deserves points for tileset choice alone, but also really excellently done.
1 vote: A sea of purest green. Cool boat, and the dock really completes it.
Gronkling almost went with 3 votes for 'The Hole in the Head Gang' here.
For me, having one last vote available, it was a toss-up between Pooty, Akseli and Steve. I really love the dock in Pooty's level at the right, and the thematic design really stands out, just the ship looks a bit messy (which is I guess why it ended up scoring lower than I expected in the end). I like Akseli's design for its simple elegance. And Steve's design, at least the last version, is pretty unique. I ended up giving a vote to both Akseli and Pooty, at the cost of one vote for Gronkling (so only 1 vote instead of 2), which is a really nice level with beautiful details, unlike most dirt levels in L1 that just look slapped together. 2 points from me go to Clam's thematic design, nice idea and cleanly realized.
Most fun
| level | author | points |
| Feel the Pressure | Akseli | 10.67 |
| Evacuating a Retirement Home | Clam | 10.66 |
| A sea of purest green | Pooty | 7.71 |
| Prize Catch | Crane | 6.57 |
| The "Hole in the Head" Gang | Steve | 4.78 |
| Tres Hombres | möbius | 4.48 |
| Stroke at Retirement Age | geoo | 3.66 |
| The Isle of Skye | Gronkling | 2.9 |
| Brute Fours | Proxima | 1.57 |
Comments:
Quote from: Steve
2: Akseli (any level I can spend this long on without actually getting to work is a winner for me)
2: geoo (any level that's intended route stumps everyone
1: mobius (It's easy but not terribly so and there's a couple ways to do it, I kind of like the idea really)
1: Clam (I have to assume all that stuff isn't just there for background. I think, anyways)
Quote from: Clam
3 votes: Feel the Pressure. Really simple design, but so many things to try, and surprisingly difficult.
2 votes: A sea of purest green. This wins my prize for Best Red Herring. Simon can draw that one up
1 vote: Stroke at Retirement Age. Lots of things to do, and (clearly!) not many that lead to actually solving the level.
Quote from: Akseli
Voting is much harder than I initially thought, because I find the levels very equally enjoyable and pretty-looking. Originally I wanted to give votes for the three best levels like 1, 2 and 3 points, but that was too hard. I also thought of giving one point for six levels in both categories due to many good levels, but perhaps that would have been a boring choice. I decided to compromise with my votes.I concur, I pretty much enjoyed all of the levels as well. I ended up distributing 1 vote to 6 levels each, but order-wise among these I guess things would be Steve >= Akseli > Clam >= Crane > Pooty > Proxima
On a short notice, I asked players to rank the levels by difficulty. 6 players gave me a ranking (I excluded the level by the respective author from the ranking). I assigned 1 to the easiest, 2 to the next easiest, and so on, and took the average.) Here are the results:
Difficulty
| level | author | average rank |
| Stroke at Retirement Age | geoo | 8.2 |
| The "Hole in the Head" Gang | Steve | 6.67 |
| The Isle of Skye | Gronkling | 6.2 |
| A sea of purest green | Pooty | 5.17 |
| Feel the Pressure | Akseli | 4.2 |
| Evacuating a Retirement Home | Clam | 4.2 |
| Brute Fours | Proxima | 3.5 |
| Prize Catch | Crane | 1.83 |
| Tres Hombres | möbius | 1.6 |
möbius considered his level the easiest, Akseli considered his the third easiest ('Tres Hombres' Taxing, 'Prize Catch' and 'Feel the Pressure' Mayhem, and everything else above Mayhem).
Quote from: ccexplore
Pooty's was also interesting, I think he manages to hide the intended solution very well by making it seem like there are a lot of other more straightforward alternatives to try first (ignoring some of the backroutes that needed to be eliminated, though even then it only got to v3).
Special Prizes (names and ideas courtesy of Steve, picture courtesy of Simon):
Brickout Memorial Trophy: Gronkling - The Isle of Skye (8 versions + known backroute by Akseli)
"haha, this won't be so hard at all! ... wait, nothing I try is working WHY?!" award: Akseli - Feel the Pressure
Quote from: ccexplore
I concur with Steve how surprising Akseli's level was, it looked so deceptively simple but not that easy to actually get a working solution.
Finally, the list of backroute finders:
| name | amount | levels |
| geoo | 22 | Gronkling v1, Gronkling v2, Gronkling v3, Gronkling v4, Crane v1, Crane v2, Crane v3, Crane v4, Crane v5, Crane v6, Crane v7, Akseli v1, Steve v1, Steve v2, Steve v3, Clam v1, Clam v2, Pooty v1, Pooty v2, möbius v1, möbius v2, möbius v3 |
| Akseli | 18 | Gronkling v1, Gronkling v8, Crane v1, Crane v2, Crane v3, Crane v4, Crane v5, Crane v6, Crane v7, geoo v1, Steve v1, Steve v2, Steve v3, Steve v4, Pooty v1, Pooty v2, möbius v1, möbius v2 |
| Gronkling | 13 | Crane v1, Crane v7, geoo v1, Akseli v1, Akseli v2, Steve v1, Clam v1, Clam v2, Clam v3, Clam v4, Pooty v1, möbius v1, Proxima v1 |
| ccexplore | 12 | Gronkling v1, Gronkling v6, Gronkling v7, Crane v1, Crane v7 (confirm), geoo v1, Steve v1, Steve v2, Steve v4, Pooty v1, möbius v1, Proxima v1 |
| Clam | 9 | Gronkling v1, Gronkling v7, Crane v1, Crane v7, geoo v1, Akseli v1, Akseli v2, Steve v1, Pooty v1 |
| Pooty | 7 | Gronkling v1, Crane v1, Crane v4, Crane v7, Akseli v1, Steve v1, möbius v3 |
| Proxima | 6 | Gronkling v1, Crane v1, Steve v1, Pooty v1, möbius v1, möbius v2 |
| Crane | 5 | Gronkling v1, Gronkling v2, Gronkling v3, Steve v1, möbius v1 |
| Steve | 5 | Crane v1, Clam v1, Pooty v1, möbius v1, möbius v3 |
| lyygak | 2 | Pooty v1, Pooty v2 |
| Luis | 1 | Akseli v2 |
Discuss the levels, results, things you liked and things that could have been done better, and things that should be done differently in future contests, below!
Post by: Proxima on March 13, 2013, 01:45:21 AM
Big thanks to geoo for all the organisational work. I hope it hasn't put you off the idea of a second round
though it will be tricky to think of other themes that were as good as this one. It was restrictive without being too much so, and I was astonished by how much variety there was in the levels -- especially considering how many 1-of-each levels there already are out there.I found it extremely difficult to decide on votes for "most fun". The first versions, because of backroutes, were mostly too easy, and the final versions too hard.
I mostly gave votes to the levels that fell in the happy medium (Akseli's and mobius' got 2 each), but I was conscious that I might have enjoyed the hard levels more if I'd had more time to work on them.I would definitely remake my own level for Lix -- it will be easy to substitute for the one-way walls -- but judging by the votes, maybe you don't want me to?
I've also put Luis' PSP remake of my level up on my YouTube channel.
Perhaps it might be worth trying out a different voting system, as it's kind of depressing to get a zero, even though it was an off-hand effort made very quickly (as well as being my first attempt at using Lemmix!) I mentioned to geoo that the DROD forums were also having a level design contest. Their voting system works as follows: you give every level a score from 1 to 10, and these scores are averaged. That way, you're not just pointing out your favourites -- if you feel all the levels are good, you can give them all a score of 6 or higher, and still differentiate your favourites from the others.
Either way, it's worth stating up front that fractional votes are permissible
Post by: Proxima on March 13, 2013, 01:57:25 AM
The solution found by ccexplore and Gronkling, while I like it, helped me realise it was possible to do without the steel, so it retroactively counts as a backroute. Clam's solution does not; it's an extra challenge that I'm leaving in. It works on both versions, and so far is the only way to save more than the required 90% on v2.
Post by: ccexplore on March 13, 2013, 02:19:57 AM
I would definitely remake my own level for Lix -- it will be easy to substitute for the one-way walls -- but judging by the votes, maybe you don't want me to?
I wouldn't worry about the votes too much, I suspect the results might not be as bad as it looks now, if a different voting system was used (like the fractional votes thing I did precisely because no level deserves a 0 for fun in my mind). And according to the spreadsheet geoo did actually give you a full vote on that level.
I think considering the little amount of time you had to come up with the level, it's pretty good. Maybe somewhat less of a wow factor compared with some of the other levels, but by no means bad.
Quote
Either way, it's worth stating up front that fractional votes are permissible
Yeah, I'm pretty sure no one (including geoo) expected that, I just decided to surprise geoo with it (ie. didn't even bother to consult geoo beforehand when I submitted my votes).
Had no idea how geoo would handle it but apparently he agreed with my reasoning. I didn't think about bringing it up first on the forums beforehand, but then again I submitted my votes relatively late and on a busy day.
Post by: ccexplore on March 13, 2013, 02:44:51 AM
ccexplore came up with the wonderful idea to distribute fractional votes (wish I had thought of that myself, would have made things a lot easier. Turns out they also serve as tie breaker now, breaking a tie by 0.01 point.
The extra .01 I gave to Akseli's level for funness is definitely intentional. That it actually turns out to break a tie is of course beyond my expectations.
In case people were wondering: for the most part basically I aome up with fractional voting as a way to force my votes to add up to 6.
I started with votes for each level that are in the range of 1.0, 1.1, ... to 2.0, and then I simply scale the numbers afterwards so they add up to 6. (There were also some 0s for the pretty category, not necessarily that the level is ugly as that other levels put more of an effort in comparison.) I rounded the numbers to 2 decimal places via the normal way of rounding, so the .01 might have (memory a bit fuzzy on this part by now) originated from the rounding leaving the total at 5.99, which I then added the "missing" 0.01 on to one of the levels I felt has a slight edge over other levels with similar score.Ultimately the more I tweaked the votes, the smaller the differences become (basically the thought of "oh this level is fun/pretty so and so, but that level is fun/pretty in so and so other way, maybe the difference shouldn't be that big" repeatedly came to mind as I review and re-review the levels).
Post by: chaos_defrost on March 13, 2013, 03:20:03 AM
I wish I had more time to both flesh out the aesthetic (and some of the more obvious backroutes) of my level and to play the vFinals looking for solutions but working full time is a little rougher than I thought at first. Ah well, there's always another day/contest for that.Round 2 gogogogogogogo (or maybe a less formal level jam first, that may be a good way to prevent this idea from going stale)
Post by: Luis on March 13, 2013, 04:30:12 AM
Post by: mobius on March 13, 2013, 08:27:29 PM
Everybody's level was unique and different. I liked the retirement themes and Akseli deserves a way-to-go for an excellent level, considering it's his very first.
I hope you make more Akseli!
I think Proxima and I were at a slight disadvantage on design for being late. But I had thought the forum was just about ready to close up back in December. So I went away but I'm glad I came back and participated.
I didn't know you had a youtube channel Proxima
note: I will likley edit this post after watching the replays to say
%&$# why didn't I see that???
Post by: ccexplore on March 14, 2013, 03:28:29 AM
Some weren't all that glitchy or weird, I feel a little lame for not even seeing small parts of those backroutes when I worked on that level. And geoo's backroute to v2 features a neat trick I haven't seen before (I love how after all these years there are still new things I can learn about the game!). I'll go through more replays later, it is unfortunately slightly cumbersome right now to load the various versions of each level and then hunt down who has which replay for what version.
For round 2, sounds like a poll may be in order to see what the theme should be about?
Post by: geoo on March 14, 2013, 04:15:51 AM
Yeah, I think for voting next time, it'd be better to just rate each level on a scale from e.g. 0 to 1 (for any category), instead of only giving points to the favourites, which has more lopsided outcomes.
The backroute fixing jam, or something of the like, should definitely be made part of the contest. In the end, no-one really cared about finding as many backroutes as possible (which I think is good, because to some extent it was just a category about who would put in the most work). The thing is, people should be motivated to try to solve the levels right away, and not just wait until the final version (though it worked pretty well here). I was thinking of having three stages: each consists of 5 days of solving, and 2 days for a level author to fix backroutes, and the scores everyone gets at the end of each solving stage get added up. Though I'm not sure whether I like such a fixed pace, it might also be an issue if competitors have a busy week. So perhaps keeping things like they were with regards to backroute fixing is fine.
As for new themes, I think before having a poll, we have to come up with some possible ideas to vote on.
Only one I can think of right now is "Design a level where the save requirement is exactly 1 lemming (out of however many you wish)".
Though I think we should also discuss when to have the next contest. Proxima and Steve said we should have one right now, I feel I wouldn't mind a cooldown period of one or two months (as otherwise this idea might become a bit stale, as Steve said). Of course, we could also just organize everything (the theme specifically), and then have the level design deadline in 2 months or so, as a hybrid solution. Either way, for another big contest like this, it'd be nice if someone else volunteered to organize it, so I can just lay back and participate.
Another option might be having a longer break, and just a light level design jam in between. Something where there's less work involved, and a slightly more restrictive theme. E.g. a theme "Design a level in your least favourite style whose solution employs the nuke", and the aim is just to come up with an original idea, so no backroute fixing or trying to make things has hard as possible, but just a poll on originality (and perhaps looks, because yeah, make a pretty level in your least favourite style).
Post by: Clam on March 14, 2013, 04:53:12 AM
I'm in favour of a break of at least one month before the next full contest. That way I might be able to make progress on something else
Post by: mobius on March 15, 2013, 01:05:30 AM
[Design a level where the save requirement is exactly 1 lemming (out of however many you wish)"]<<<<<interesting idea! So far I only know of 2 levels by Pieuw Dodo each like this. (both are similar)
Builderless levels can be interesting. The idea a few months ago inspired me to make a good level.
I think the crazier ideas might be more fun
What do you think about designing a level for the a challenge?
For example; a ‘the 1-skill-per-lemming’. the level, at first glance, may appear easy, but the rule when playing is you can only use 1 skill on each lemming. A whole contest could be themed a particular challenge.
I wouldn’t mind a new contest sooner than later. I’ve been making levels lately.
Post by: Akseli on March 16, 2013, 01:32:46 PM
If the 3 official category points are added together for each competitor, Clam Spammer would be the winner of the whole contest being the first in the main category, and the second in both best looking and most fun level categories.
I'm so happy that geoo's level won the best looking category !
My favourites were these dirt and rock levels by Gronkling and geoo, which both stood well out among the straight piece styles (notably the high amount of marble levels) ((the tileset choice of course wasn't the only reason, these both levels were definitely well designed!)). After all, geoo's level was less bothered with backroute fixes than Gronkling's one, which affects the appearance of the level.geoo's Stroke at Retirement Age was also the most successful level when it comes to backroutes. Too bad that the first version was published a little bit earlier than the backroute was discovered, otherwise it seems that this level would have been extraordinarily backrouteless right from the first version! Also, the backroute fix which was made for the second version doesn't appear at all, like ccexplore mentioned a while ago.
I'm surprised that my level Feel the Pressure won the most fun level category! :O What on Earth were you guys thinking?
No, thanks everyone! Though I feel that many people put more effort on their levels than I maybe, because my level is so small, so I probably used less time designing it. Probably that's why my level didn't do very well in the best looking level category, and I think that other people's levels really deserved more points because they made bigger effort with all those huge layouts and great decoration. (Okay, Gronkling's level is also small, but that was still one of the best levels in this competition both in design and by the actual puzzle in my opinion!)I would have been interested in seeing ccexplore's and Simon's level, because I think I haven't ever seen a Lemmix level made by those guys. I guess ccexplore has made some levels for Lix but has Simon ever created a public Lemmings level? I want to know!
For me it's definitely ok to put contest levels in Lix and in a levelpack in the level database. The contest levels have been ordered in the pack by publishing date so far, but now it's possible to order them by difficulty to the new pack from the easiest to the hardest according to our poll, for example. Both ways are ok for me.
Some ideas for the contest themes:
- One type of skill
- No builders
- No terrain removal skills/Only terrain removal skills
- No steel, traps, liquid, oneway-walls...
- One minute time limit
- Single lemming level/Two lemmings/Three...
- Something from the challenge board? Release rate 99, undamaged levels...
- Combinations of some of these
Etc.!
Oh yes, and if someone still hasn't watched solutions too much and wants to solve my level, here's the third version of Feel the Pressure. Send me your solutions, please!
Post by: Clam on March 16, 2013, 05:49:35 PM
I would have been interested in seeing ccexplore's and Simon's level, because I think I haven't ever seen a Lemmix level made by those guys. I guess ccexplore has made some levels for Lix but has Simon ever created a public Lemmings level? I want to know!
Simon has made levels for Lix, but most of those are multiplayer IIRC.
Quote
For me it's definitely ok to put contest levels in Lix and in a levelpack in the level database. The contest levels have been ordered in the pack by publishing date so far, but now it's possible to order them by difficulty to the new pack from the easiest to the hardest according to our poll, for example. Both ways are ok for me.
Some might not be possible to remake in Lix because it lacks one-way arrows. I know you can improvise a basic one-way obstacle using steel, but I'm not so sure about the stack of arrows in Pooty's level for example.
And I agree with putting the levels in difficulty order, though I'm surprised how low mine turned out after some of the comments I got
. Anyone who hasn't voted on difficulty yet could still do so.
Post by: Proxima on March 16, 2013, 06:01:46 PM
Post by: Crane on March 17, 2013, 03:59:41 AM
Another contest theme idea:
- "Commando" level... either just one lemming, or two lemmings out of separate trapdoors.
Post by: geoo on March 17, 2013, 05:46:22 AM
And I don't think you have to worry about matching standards, now having seen your solution, I think it is still a pretty difficult level. And while the contest encouraged designing hard levels, I deliberately also wanted to appeal to people who don't want to design an uber hard level with the other two categories (I know Akseli didn't aim for as hard as possible, at least).
Gronkling: Are you going to fix the backroute to the last version of your level?
Proxima: If you read mobius' spoiler, you don't have to feel that bad about it as there's a solution that doesn't use this move, and I find that solution more elegant to boot.
Akseli: Looks like you introduced a new backroute with that terrain there.
Solution attached.Simon has also made a few singleplayer levels for lix, not super hard, but enjoyable. And I think ccexplore has made levels for CustLemm/Lemmix, Lix, Lemmings 2 and Cheapo, I think about 3 or so for each.
Clam's level was the one that took me longest to solve. I was inclined to rate it hardest first, but I found the solution Steve's level more involved (even though it didn't take me as long to find I think), so I ranked Clam's second hardest. Still, seems like I rated it way higher than everyone else did.
Post by: Gronkling on March 17, 2013, 11:03:16 AM
At least it's not on something like v27 like a few levels I've made before.Every single level in this pack was fun. I'm not sure I can say anything that hasn't already been said! And yes a lix pack would be cool (even though I never really got into it) and is this contest's levels going to be submitted as a level pack for the level pack database?
Post by: Akseli on March 17, 2013, 02:35:36 PM
I vote that Clam's level is definitely harder than Akseli'sThat's how I rated these levels also.
Though Excel file indicates some contradictions with the amounts of solvers: 7 people solved my level, and 9 people solved Clam's level (8 the final version). Also, some levels may change by difficulty still to some extent due to last backroute fixes, like Prize Catch maybe.(I know Akseli didn't aim for as hard as possible, at least).Yeah, and my intention also in the upcoming contests is to make more fun than hard levels.
Akseli: Looks like you introduced a new backroute with that terrain there.
I was suspecting something like this with my level, so I asked solutions, thanks.
Fortunately it seems only to be a steel area issue, but I still now named my level "v4" for clarification purposes.
Post by: geoo on March 17, 2013, 09:39:40 PM
Though Excel file indicates some contradictions with the amounts of solvers: 7 people solved my level, and 9 people solved Clam's level (8 the final version). Also, some levels may change by difficulty still to some extent due to last backroute fixes, like Prize Catch maybe.I suppose if you take out my votes, then Clam's level would have ended up quite a bit lower than yours. It seems like I rated Clam's level notably higher than everyone else, and yours a bit lower than everyone else.
I tried to fix up Crane's level, attached is a new version where I try to eliminate all the found backroutes.
Gronkling: Yeah, for the pack I submit to the levelpack database I want to include the latest version of each level, i.e. the ones that are posted here.
mobius: I like the new version of your level (it also fixes the glitch route), though I'm inclined to include the older version instead to keep it consistent with the 1-of-each skill theme.
Post by: Proxima on March 17, 2013, 10:09:20 PM
möbius: Doesn't matter now as Clam has hidden it, but I was referring to your hinting at the solution to Steve's level, not your own.
Post by: Clam on March 18, 2013, 07:39:11 AM
Post by: ccexplore on March 18, 2013, 10:31:28 AM
the only reason I couldn't solve Insane Steve's level is becauseQuote from: highlight to readI thought it was impossible to free a blocker by having a walker dig him out.
My v5 solution, which Steve accepted as intended, does not require that move. I did use that move in my v4 solution though.
Come to think of it, the only thing Steve did to try to eliminate solutions like my v4 was through the time limit. As I was reviewing that solution again, I wonder if I can tweak it and make it work on the v5 level...... [update: yes I can, but looks like a couple of people solved v5 more or less like that, and I guess Steve left them in as acceptable to avoid tempting the Brickout god]
And so far, Clam's seems to be one of the hardest, because there's very little room to experiment and try different approaches.
I get your point, but I think it cuts both ways. Some of the levels in the contest appear to provide a number of potential routes that only do not work out, and I find them hard just because it keeps you experimenting on wrong things.
Anyway, interesting how many people seem to find Clam's level difficult. Obviously I'm not one of them as I already got the intended solution back in v1, but maybe I just got lucky.
I'd be interested to see how you got to 50%, so I can see if you're on the right path or not. I had a play just now and found that you can save 6 (one less than required) with a simple backroutish method, so it's quite possible that the level is misleading you
Some levels in the contest become quite easy (or at least quite a bit easier) if you can save one less than required, so yeah, that can be very misleading.
Post by: ccexplore on March 18, 2013, 11:57:47 AM
I tried to fix up Crane's level, attached is a new version where I try to eliminate all the found backroutes.
Attached replay is the minimal changes I made to my v7 solution to solve your v8......
Post by: geoo on March 18, 2013, 01:21:15 PM
Post by: ccexplore on March 18, 2013, 07:40:12 PM
Yes, that's the intended route. Unlike everyone else's, you route actually was somewhat close to the intended one.
Interesting, but...
Quote from: spoilers
I would've thought both exits would get used, which hasn't been the case so far with my solutions including the v8 one. That aspect not important enough to be enforced I guess?
Post by: Adam on March 18, 2013, 08:58:17 PM
Post by: Crane on March 18, 2013, 09:11:04 PM
Yes, that's the intended route. Unlike everyone else's, you route actually was somewhat close to the intended one.
Interesting, but...Quote from: spoilersI would've thought both exits would get used, which hasn't been the case so far with my solutions including the v8 one. That aspect not important enough to be enforced I guess?
That is indeed the intended solution, hence the "prize catch". Some differences in the order of tools is permissible, but they were all in the right places, near enough.
Quote from: spoilers
The left exit is a 'troll exit'!
I'll see if I can polish the level a bit to make it more aesthetically pleasing.
Quote from: spoilers
It is supposed to be possible to climb the poles protecting the left exit so you can dig down and build, but you run out of time trying to complete it this way.
In the meantime, here is my other 1-of-everything level if anyone's curious:
Post by: ccexplore on March 18, 2013, 09:44:58 PM
Quote from: spoilersIt is supposed to be possible to climb the poles protecting the left exit so you can dig down and build, but you run out of time trying to complete it this way.
Interesting.
Quote from: spoiler
As you may be aware, geoo's v8 of your level prevents climb/dig/build for the left exit. That's probably for the best anyway, as I think it would be a bit annoying to leave that route open and yet have it fail merely due to time, especially if it doesn't seem too far off time-wise.
Post by: Crane on March 18, 2013, 09:47:40 PM
Quote from: spoiler
I may make the structure a bit higher so the time is more off and it becomes apparent that you can't go that way.I have a thing for artistic presentation too, so I'll try to clean up his fixes a bit. If you're up for another challenge, take a look at "Tier Drops" - the attachment's on the previous post. I thought I had backrouted it just now, but thankfully it was averted at the very end, so no modifications needed!
EDIT: Actually I did just backroute it - bah!
Post by: Akseli on March 18, 2013, 10:13:38 PM
I'll admit it's a bit of a d**k move.Haha, I haven't tried the last version of that level yet, but I had forgot this post about your level until now.
Btw Crane, how's your levelpack proceeding?
(Sorry for little off topic!)Anyway, my solution for Tier Drops attached.
Post by: Crane on March 18, 2013, 10:24:37 PM
Good job on finding the old posts. The pack still exists, but I'm wondering how to approach it because "JAILBREAK!" doesn't actually work on Lemmix / Custlemm due to different bomber mechanics, and the pack's final level, "Mastermind", has a major backroute in it that is proving very difficult to fix.
Easy enough to fix that backroute in Tier Drops though - stay tuned. I'll wait to see it anyone else finds backroutes, or the official solution.
Post by: geoo on March 19, 2013, 06:13:03 AM
I'll wait until you've fixed up Prize Catch then, and once that's done compile the contest levelpack for the level database.
Adam: I looks like we're contemplating when to have the next contest or level jam, but no-one's decisive enough.
Post by: ccexplore on March 19, 2013, 11:43:11 AM
Post by: Adam on March 19, 2013, 08:36:26 PM
Shall we try and come up with a general consensus for the next contest?
Post by: Adam on March 20, 2013, 05:42:55 AM
Post by: Clam on March 20, 2013, 08:57:24 AM
Also, here's another replay for Tier Drops, which is probably the same as someone else's (I haven't looked).
Post by: Crane on March 20, 2013, 01:44:39 PM
Post by: Adam on March 20, 2013, 11:45:51 PM
Post by: geoo on March 21, 2013, 03:20:27 AM
(Tell me if you don't like this role -- next down my list are Akseli, Clam and Simon; well initially I hadn't considered you on my list of people to sneakily hand over responsibility to, but you basically asked for it. ) On that note, I have to thank Akseli a lot for his engagement in the last contest (some of it behind the scenes), helping recruit people and giving opinions!So I just renamed all the topics to include #1, in particular the preparation topic for the first contest might be a good read: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=722.0
A (multi-vote) poll for a theme seems like a good idea, though before that I think it should be decided whether to have a level jam or a full-fledged contest next. I'll leave that up to you how to do that.
Anyway, I just gathered the topics that have been suggested.
- No builders
- Design a level where the save requirement is exactly 1 lemming (out of however many you wish)
- One type of skill
- No terrain removal skills/Only terrain removal skills
- No steel, traps, liquid, oneway-walls...
- One minute time limit
- Single lemming level/Two lemmings/Three...
- Something from the challenge board? Release rate 99, undamaged levels...
- Combinations of some of these
- "Commando" level... either just one lemming, or two lemmings out of separate trapdoors.
Possible condition to tack on:
- use your least favourite style
Post by: Proxima on March 21, 2013, 01:04:43 PM
I hope you can get your computer healthy again, Proxima!
Thanks! Natsuki seems to be doing fine now, and appreciates the concern
Post by: Crane on March 21, 2013, 11:59:21 PM
As for Tier Drops, each backroute has a common location for the digger - this area was meant to be a red herring, but seeing as it was just asking for trouble, it has now been blocked off, and, from what I can see, is the only change that was needed.
Let me know if Prize Catch version 9 opens any new backroutes.
Post by: geoo on March 22, 2013, 03:01:36 AM
Quote
Instead of 'catching' the climber like in the intended route, you can turn him around before digging the pole by building against the terrain you placed there, and only dig down once he's turned around. That way he'll automatically face right after digging the pole, and walk safely to the exit. To make sure he won't climb into the squisher trap, you can just making him bash at the end instead of someone else.
I had a short glance at Tier Drop, but I haven't solved it yet (guess that might be a good thing
).
Post by: Crane on March 22, 2013, 03:24:30 AM
The shredder trap was supposed to eliminate ccexplore route (which is possible again now that you've replaced it with terrain), which goes as follows:Ooh, good point. I missed that one. Always the simple things! Anyway, hopefully this rectifies the exploit while remaining pretty! Of all the replays I missed, it had to be that one. Thanks. Hopefully this is the final revision I will need to do for Prize Catch for it to be a worthy level at last! (Porting it to Lemmini though will be problematic though due to how bombers work differently on steel)QuoteInstead of 'catching' the climber like in the intended route, you can turn him around before digging the pole by building against the terrain you placed there, and only dig down once he's turned around. That way he'll automatically face right after digging the pole, and walk safely to the exit. To make sure he won't climb into the squisher trap, you can just making him bash at the end instead of someone else.
And if you haven't solved Tier Drops from a mere glance (for other forum readers, it's at the bottom of the previous page), then that's a good thing.
Post by: Crane on March 22, 2013, 04:01:11 AM
Post by: Akseli on March 22, 2013, 03:40:16 PM
Post by: Crane on March 22, 2013, 11:50:49 PM
Geoo, if you want the official solution, I've made a replay of it that I can PM to you if you're interested.
Post by: geoo on March 23, 2013, 12:47:59 AM
So what's the plan now? Each of our final revisions goes into a Custlemm pack?Yes, I uploaded the pack with the latest versions of all levels here: http://lemmings-db.camanis.net/levelpack/ag1zfmxlbW1pbmdzLWRichELEglMZXZlbFBhY2sYwq8FDA/
(The trigger area of the latest trap you added wasn't working, so I lowered its index to make it work again.)
Post by: Crane on March 23, 2013, 12:52:32 AM
Post by: geoo on March 23, 2013, 12:56:55 AM
Ah geez, nice find - I didn't think they could fit through there. Hopefully this addresses it. Hopefully this level won't require as many revisions as Prize Catch - this level is meant to be a little simpler and more elegant.Thanks, you can send it if you want, but I'll just try until I find the intended solution myself.
Geoo, if you want the official solution, I've made a replay of it that I can PM to you if you're interested.
Solved this new version, saving 3 skills.
Post by: ccexplore on March 23, 2013, 02:46:37 AM
Post by: ccexplore on March 23, 2013, 10:22:34 AM
Post by: Crane on March 23, 2013, 05:38:12 PM
(Tested - bombing the blocker doesn't work, so I am pretty confused and not quite sure how to fix this exploit...
Quote from: Spoiler
...other than thickening the wall and making it obvious that you shouldn't bomb or dig there - ideally not what I want to do due to aesthetics and symmetry, plus it makes the level easier to solve, but I may not have much choice, especially if the level is ever ported to Lemmini.)
Post by: ccexplore on March 24, 2013, 12:23:41 AM
Quote from: spoilers
Blockers can cancel nearby steel and one-ways. You blow up one of the walker lemmings that got squeezed between the wall and the blocker. The lemming has to be closest to the blocker when it explodes to benefit from the canceling, so it's slightly tricky to time.
You have limited options to fix. Besides thickening the wall, it might work if you make the floor thinner so that the bomb crater breaks through the floor, but that still makes it "obvious" that the bomber can't be used, plus it hasn't been ruled out yet whether you can start the explosion slightly higher if you use the climber and builder on the exploding lemming.
Post by: Crane on March 24, 2013, 01:57:14 AM
Quote from: spoilersBlockers can cancel nearby steel and one-ways. You blow up one of the walker lemmings that got squeezed between the wall and the blocker. The lemming has to be closest to the blocker when it explodes to benefit from the canceling, so it's slightly tricky to time.
You have limited options to fix. Besides thickening the wall, it might work if you make the floor thinner so that the bomb crater breaks through the floor, but that still makes it "obvious" that the bomber can't be used, plus it hasn't been ruled out yet whether you can start the explosion slightly higher if you use the climber and builder on the exploding lemming.
Quote from: spoilers
I might try some "thin steel" then. I don't think you can use a Climber or Builder because the steel area extends a few pixels above the floor (but not high enough that it affects bashers).Here is version 4 - I do feel the safeguards I've put in to patch up the exploit are a little tacky and obvious - if it comes to the worst, I can cut my losses and just put a solid steel floor back in. The other changes:
- Steel areas next to drops extended outwards (so fallers can't blast holes in the plates).
- One-way arrows moved upwards slightly - they look neater as a result and also stop a previous backroute equally as well as lowering the steel above them (which has now been raised back up as a result), while still acting properly as one-way arrows.
- Steel plates above the one-way arrows moved slightly to the left and upwards slightly (see point above).
- Extra steel block between the two leftmost trapdoors to patch a backroute.
What do you think? Should I cut my losses put a solid steel floor back in, especially since the exploit is hard to pull off?
Post by: geoo on March 24, 2013, 07:07:11 AM
Post by: Crane on March 24, 2013, 05:26:01 PM
Please let that be the last of the backroutes! Been fun making and fixing these levels though.
POST SCRIPTUM: I can't simply lower the floor because that causes problems with the trigger areas.
Post by: geoo on March 25, 2013, 04:01:46 AM
And another solution which might just be the intended one. Took me a while to find it, quite nice!