Post by: Minim on November 13, 2011, 04:42:32 PM
During the weekend I have created a bunch of levels where the exit and the entrance have swapped places. (And if you really want to know, the exits have been snapped to ground, otherwise it might look like a WTF level. Here along with this post are the downloads for the Fun and Tricky set, with 15 levels split into four level packs. I couldn't manage to get all 120 levels in one folder because my WinZip trial expired, and it costs a fortune to buy the full version. If you are interested in this idea I can give you the Taxing and Mayhem levels too, and if this gets popular we might do OhNo and Xmas. We'll see...
But anyway, it should be ideal for creating challenges (Well, not Fun 8 though, as this level is now cakewalk
) so I can allow you posting challenges related to reverse levels (e.g. "what levels can be solved in reverse?" and "if the level is not possible, how many more skills would to need to solve it?") I hope you enjoy this level pack.Edit: Due to problem fixing, some of the downloads may be reset.
Post by: Simon on November 13, 2011, 05:07:12 PM
The best challenges are probably Tame.
A good archive/compression tool is 7-zip. It's free/libre software, and supports all common formats.
-- Simon
Post by: finlay on November 13, 2011, 06:44:40 PM
I'll start some off; obviously, I'm not very good with pixel placement and glitches, so a lot of these could be improved massively. I'll go for 100% if I can.
Fun 1: Can't be solved with diggers only; can be solved with 10 climbers, 2 builders and 1 basher for 100%, or 1 climber, 2 builders and 1 basher for 10%
Fun 2: Can't be solved with floaters only; can be solved with the addition of 8 builders (8 builders+10 floaters for 100%, 8 builders only for 10%)
If you allow unlimited extra skillage, I'm sure there'd be a way to use a Tame 20-style glitch on these, but I'm really crap at pulling off the dig+bash routine so I'm not going to attempt it.
Fun 3: Can't be solved with blockers only; can be solved with the addition of 12 builders (I used 12 builders and 4 blockers – this is almost certainly beatable. I got 90% because I let a lemming fall off the screen by accident
)
Post by: finlay on November 13, 2011, 07:11:05 PM
Fun 5: needs 1 builder to get up to the ramp, and then can be solved with 2 bashers – I think; the lemming kept turning around because there's a 1-pixel ledge that he jumps up to where you have to make him a basher to go through the rock; and I ended up just using 3 in the end.
Fun 6: can be solved with defaults+3 builders, as in the screenshot.
Fun 7: first solvable level; I can do it in 4 builders for 100%. You only need to build over the pit, though, which makes it different from the real level. According to the Challenges thread, the real level can be solved for 100% with 2 builders, suggesting one to get up onto the ledge and one for over the pit, but IIRC this involves release rate jiggery pokery, and wouldn't be possible starting from the top.
Fun 8: Solvable with no skills!
Fun 9: 1 blocker, 1 basher for 98%. Can't think of a way to do 100% unless you build up to the wall on the right or something, and even then space is at a bit of a premium.
Post by: Clam on November 13, 2011, 07:27:21 PM
EDIT: attached a replay.
Post by: finlay on November 13, 2011, 07:34:09 PM
This would be best saved for the inevitable challenge topic, but Fun 5 can be solved without the addition of any more skills, thanks to the basher-ramp technique mentioned here (under 'bashers').I'll take your word for it. I'm not going to bother attempting because it'd probably just enrage me or something.
Continuing:
Fun 10: 100% with 20 climbers, 6 builders, 1 miner, 1 digger as in the screenshot. Fewer builders are probably possible with this method, although it could be done using blockers, which would definitely require fewer builders – I think it should be 2 to get up to the column, but with the digger trap where it is, you don't quite touch the column by digging from its edge. Perhaps a good challenge for this level would be to use no climbers?
Fun 11: 1 basher. In some ways it'd almost be more fun to see if we could complete this level while also reversing the arrows.
Fun 12: 1 blocker, 3 builders, 1 miner, 1 basher for 98%. Again, this can almost certainly be improved upon skills-wise, but like Fun 9, I'm going to leave it up to you to determine whether it's possible to get 100% – you have to block so as the lemmings don't die, because at RR 99 they're coming out too fast to do another trick like a digger trap.
Fun 13: Like Fun 1, impossible with diggers. I'm not going to do this one just now, but if you add extra skills you could probably play around with the ledge to the west of the exit to get up.
Fun 14: The major difference with this level is that you have to get to the upper level for the exit, but otherwise it is fairly similar to the real version, and I'm fairly confident that you could adapt most solutions to the reversed version. For a start, I've been able to do it with the simplistic solution of 7 builders and 3 bashers, so maybe try beating that.
Fun 15: You can use the structure on the right to help save 100%. I managed with 15 builders, 4 bashers and 3 diggers. Again, less is certainly possible; you can use fewer builders by bashing through the three pillars individually rather than bashing under them like I did.
Fun 16: I did it for non-100% with 5 builders, 2 blockers and 1 bomber. I'm fairly sure 100% is possible if you use a digger trap or something (it's not like Fun 9 & 12 where the RR 99 makes this impossible), but you would have to use more builders. I'd like to know if 4 builders is possible, however: can you reach the platform with one builder from the final spike? IIRC, it's possible the other way round, but here we would have to make sure that the builder and platform connect.
Post by: finlay on November 13, 2011, 08:29:36 PM
Fun 18: Not possible with defaults, but should be possible with extra builders. I attempted it but gave up after I ended up selecting a few too many builders going the wrong way when I had the crowd all concentrated in one chamber.
Fun 19: Quite fun, if you excuse the pun. 4 builders, 3 diggers, 1 basher attached.
Fun 20: 7 bashers, 3 builders, 2 diggers, 1 miner attached. Probably possible with less.
Fun 21: 6 builders, 4 bashers, 1 digger attached
Fun 22: 1 builder, 2 bashers, 1 digger if you bash under all the trees – or you can complete the level using only bashers if you bash through each tree. No bashers is probably possible too, especially if you use miners, and there's probably a "high road" solution too, ie "don't touch the ground", which would be easier to execute than it would have been on the previous version of the level.
Fun 23 is demonstrably wrong, however! You're missing the Hidden Entrance, and you seem to have accidentally deleted the 0 from the 20 floater provision.
Post by: Minim on November 13, 2011, 09:29:12 PM
Fun 23 is demonstrably wrong, however! You're missing the Hidden Entrance, and you seem to have accidentally deleted the 0 from the 20 floater provision.Whoops! I have fixed the problem (and to prevent the problem recurring, reset the download too). I also added the placement of the hidden entrance to Taxing 17 so that this problem won't happen there.
It is quite interesting explaining the subtle differences to each level. At some point in the game you may come across a choice of exits (Or, if you're playing the Prison, a double entrancer).
Fun 9: 1 blocker, 1 basher for 98%. Can't think of a way to do 100% unless you build up to the wall on the right or something, and even then space is at a bit of a premium.
I had no trouble getting 100% on that level. I even managed to solve the repeated version too. Replay attached will show you how to release the blocker when on a thin platform.
Post by: finlay on November 14, 2011, 01:27:16 AM
The fixed Fun 23 is also quite fun to play – i've attached a replay to show that it's possible to complete on 100%, but I've not tried to optimize my skill usage. I've ended up using 20 climbers, 1 blocker, 11 builders, 15 bashers, 5 miners and 1 digger. I'm fairly sure better could be done. It's worth noting that you can ignore 2 of the entrances on this level and still pass, as the requirement is 25%.
Fun 24 has become a boring hero/builder level – it took me 13 builders and no other skills. Mayhem 4 definitely won't be completable. It may be possible to finish the level with the minimum 66% (ie 20 lemmings) with your 20 climbers and use fewer builders.
Fun 25 is completable to 97% – had the same trouble with blockers and RR 99 as before, although this time you really can't dig to release the buggers. So I did 2 blockers, 3 builders and 4 bashers. You can probably reduce the number of bashers by utilising direct drop, in which case you'd use 2 blockers, 4 builders and 1 basher (or digger/miner, whatever, just to stop the guy building!)
Fun 26 is cool, because it is reminiscent of the solution to the original level. And a previously-decorative trap is suddenly ominous and threatening. I used 9 builders, 1 climber and 3 bashers. Could almost certainly reduce those numbers.
OK, stopping now because it's getting late, but I'll note a couple of things from the rest of the Fun and beginning of the Tricky set:
Fun 30 - omg... I'm now wondering if someone'll be able to Tame-20 that level or use the slider glitch, I have to say...
It's funny how levels that used to be boring builder levels are now piss-easy and vice-versa. For instance, Tricky 8 now only requires 4 (or maybe 3) builders to pass (where the entrance is now it is impossible not to lose 1, however, because if you get him to build as soon as he lands he will hit his feet on the ledge and turn back, which may mean that the "King of the Castle" is unpassable – I can't remember if you're allowed to lose any lemmings in that level, maybe 1 or 2 though which would be alright). You can also use a blocker on the Tricky level if 2 lemmings turn around, in order that you still only lose 1. After getting up that initial ledge, they'll simply walk to the exit.
Similarly, on Tricky 11 you only need 1 miner to get down to the exit, unlike the many builders that you normally need to get up (that said, I'm aware of the no-builder solution to the normal Tricky 11). The Mayhem equivalent would be good to see, though, because I think the only terrain removal skills are bombers – but I don't think you get floaters, so it may be impossible to get down from the top without adding skills.
Also, Bitter Lemming is quite fun. Where you've put the entrance, you don't need floaters. I found a quick-and-dirty solution that involves 1 digger (to make a trap), 3 builders (one to stop the digger, 2 to build up to the wall), and 50 climbers. There is almost certainly a solution that involves no climbers, though, because you could build to the left and bash through. Again, not sure if the Mayhem level could be completed, as I don't think you have enough builders or digging skills – there most of the skills are floaters, which we don't need anymore.
Post by: Minim on November 14, 2011, 07:29:44 AM
Mayhem 28 may also be worth doing too.
Post by: ccexplore on November 14, 2011, 01:04:22 PM
Post by: ccexplore on November 14, 2011, 01:08:43 PM
Tricky 8 now only requires 4 (or maybe 3) builders to pass (where the entrance is now it is impossible not to lose 1, however, because if you get him to build as soon as he lands he will hit his feet on the ledge and turn back
Watch and learn. (Consult the "non-glitch tricks" thread if still confused.)
I agree, we definitely should start a bunch of challenge threads with these reverse levels.
Post by: finlay on November 14, 2011, 03:39:50 PM
I'll give out the Taxing and Mayhem reverse levels anyway, because Taxing 25 has turned out to be a world-class puzzler.Cool. I've confirmed that Mayhem 19 is possible (I had doubt about it last night in my previous post) – kinda proud of it in some ways.
also mayhem 28 is possible but it's hard to build up to that diagonal wall near the exit. I only just had enough builders in the end.
Post by: Minim on November 14, 2011, 06:55:32 PM
Reverse Fun 30 has wrong RR, it should be 10 not 99.
Whoops! That's another mistake well spotted.
I also discovered that I added a 0 on the number of minutes in Tricky 10, meaning that there are 80 minutes. That problem has now been fixed and I will (although it's quite annoying considering how many downloads there were in the past) reupload the download for RevTri1.dat.
Post by: Clam on November 15, 2011, 07:17:51 AM
Post by: Minim on November 15, 2011, 07:43:36 AM
Post by: ccexplore on November 15, 2011, 10:41:46 AM
I'm going to try to define "within reason" more rigorously below:
- you cannot move it so much that the lemmings start out totally in a different area from where the original exit was situated (eg. below the terrain the exit sits on so that the lemmings land on someplace else altogether, or above some higher overhead terrain)
- if the exit trigger was fully buried in terrain (ie. requires terrain removal to expose the trigger for use), then the corresponding entrance must be placed such that lemmings come out stuck inside the terrain. I would actually go as far as to say that the lemmings should come out at a vertical position ("position" as defined by Simon's definition of "effective coordinate" in this post) that's within the y range of the exit trigger, or lower if necessary for them to start stuck.
- conversely, if the exit trigger was not fully buried, then the corresponding entrance must be high enough that the lemmings come out at or above ground level. Even slightly lowering the start position into the ground (without causing the lemmings to start off stuck) should be prohibited. In PC Lemmmings, the lemming's starting y-position is the y coordinate of the entrance object, plus 14 (larger y means lower on the screen).
==================
Basically, the idea I want to capture is that the lemmings should end up landing on a location as close to the original exit's trigger area as possible, but give some freedom on the actual fall height, as that doesn't obviously map to any attributes of the original exit object, and therefore might as well be made a part of your strategy to pick a fall height that works best for your solution.
Post by: finlay on November 15, 2011, 12:34:05 PM
secondly, "Worra load of old blocks!" (Crazy 15) has two entrance objects in the same location! Has anyone noticed this before?
Post by: finlay on November 15, 2011, 02:07:00 PM
Have a go, anyway.
Post by: Minim on November 15, 2011, 04:53:40 PM
secondly, "Worra load of old blocks!" (Crazy 15) has two entrance objects in the same location! Has anyone noticed this before?I certainly have too! It has been mentioned before over there. The old spreadsheet said that there's only one entrance, so I won't blame anyone for not realising there are two just because it looked like one.
Anyway I am going to download your pack. Thank you for making a zip file.
Otherwise if I had to do it I would have to attach downloads on two different posts just like before.Edit: I have extracted them, and sadly they are all .dat files. I was a bit disappointed that they weren't all 100 .lvl files, as it would have been a lot quicker for us to play them all for you.
But still, since I can't make zip files, the .dat files was my Plan B.
Post by: finlay on November 15, 2011, 05:37:18 PM
Personally I was finding the dat files easier because I didn't have to clutter up my folder with 100+ lvl files (for some reason my lemmix crashes if I load a level or replay from a folder other than the one with the relevant graphics files (I guess something to do with the directory it's 'pointing' at), so my folder is getting very cluttered very quickly!), and I can keep the dat file open in lemmix and load the next level with a single click, rather than going through the open file screen. It's possible that it's just different for you because you're running windows and actually have Lemmix integrated to some degree with your system, while mine is running through Wine/X11 and I can't just double click on a lvl file in the Finder to open it in Lemmix.secondly, "Worra load of old blocks!" (Crazy 15) has two entrance objects in the same location! Has anyone noticed this before?I certainly have too! It has been mentioned before over there. The old spreadsheet said that there's only one entrance, so I won't blame anyone for not realising there are two just because it looked like one.
Anyway I am going to download your pack. Thank you for making a zip file.
Edit: I have extracted them, and sadly they are all .dat files. I was a bit disappointed that they weren't all 100 .lvl files, as it would have been a lot quicker for us to play them all for you.
Sorry. Anyway... now that you have the dat files, you could always make lvl files. And do get 7z or another free compression program if you can. I can just have OS X do it for me, which is quite fortunate (you can just right click and there's a "compress files" option, it's great!
).Have you tried any of the levels yet? Will you add them to your challenge thread?
Post by: Minim on November 15, 2011, 06:08:11 PM
Well, I need a little break from the screen now. I've put the OhNo levels on the challenge thread for you. When I come back I'll probably do the Havoc levels.
Post by: Luis on November 15, 2011, 06:51:38 PM
Post by: Clam on November 15, 2011, 08:34:02 PM
In the interest of making things interesting, let me propose that people are free to adjust the height of the entrances in the reverse levels, within reason of course.
Seems a good idea, but if you change the entrance height, then any replays will only work if the entrance is at that same height, so you'd likely end up having to post a level file with each replay. Would it be good enough to just change the exit to an entrance and leave it where it is?
Post by: ccexplore on November 15, 2011, 09:37:31 PM
Seems a good idea, but if you change the entrance height, then any replays will only work if the entrance is at that same height, so you'd likely end up having to post a level file with each replay. Would it be good enough to just change the exit to an entrance and leave it where it is?
My expectation is that in most cases the random height minimac already set should work fine, because in most cases it probably doesn't matter. So I only expect the need to post a level file when you actually need to change the entrance height to make things work out.
You can also petition minimac to change specific individual levels when the need comes, like We All Fall Down.
Post by: ccexplore on November 15, 2011, 09:43:53 PM
No offense but can you set the skills in the file? I find it a hassle having to look back to the topic to set up the skills for levels I just downloaded.
Not sure what you're asking about.The skills set in the reversed levels are exactly what the original levels offer. There is no way to know in advance how many more skills or which skills you may choose to add to make the level solvable, especially since such findings are liable to be improved upon.
It's usually my own convention that if I post a replay that requires addition of skills to a level, I'll name the replay file to explicitly call out what to add.
Post by: ccexplore on November 15, 2011, 09:48:57 PM
Edit: I have extracted them, and sadly they are all .dat files. I was a bit disappointed that they weren't all 100 .lvl files, as it would have been a lot quicker for us to play them all for you.
I actually prefer the DAT files like Finlay, and I'm on Windows. Part of it is because my computers aren't set up to open LVL files automatically in Lemmix, but even if it did, I still think it's more convenient to switch levels in Lemmix's UI than hunting down a single file amongst hundreds in File Explorer.
Post by: ccexplore on November 15, 2011, 10:13:10 PM
And, annoyingly, some of the exits ended up too high and were deleted off the playing field, so I've added them back in with a Y-coordinate of 0, but this may mean that they're buried (eg Wicked 20) or beneath the level of the platform they're meant to be on (eg Havoc 18).
I think this is actually a bug in Lemmix, according to various documentations negative y-coordinates for objects are supposed to work. I suspect they will show up and function correctly in CustLemm for example.
It seems the problem only comes when you reopen the saved level in Lemmix; you can move objects around and do F2 playtest, and the objects will be located in the correct locations including negative y-coordinates. So one solution is to make the y-coordinate 0 like you did, but ask individual Lemmix users to move the exit themselves to the proper location when they start playing with the level. (And warn them not to save the changes or they won't be able to find the exit again when they revisit the level in Lemmix a later time!)
Post by: finlay on November 15, 2011, 11:02:20 PM
It's basically any level where the exit trigger is beneath the floor that you will have to do this with... just so you know. Wild 3 is also affected, for example.
Post by: Luis on November 16, 2011, 06:01:21 AM
The skills set in the reversed levels are exactly what the original levels offer. There is no way to know in advance how many more skills or which skills you may choose to add to make the level solvable, especially since such findings are liable to be improved upon.
It's usually my own convention that if I post a replay that requires addition of skills to a level, I'll name the replay file to explicitly call out what to add.
Nevermind, I realized that the files here are actually meant for others to test how many skills the level needs, instead of a file with levels that have already been tested, but the skills are not configured yet.
Post by: Minim on November 16, 2011, 07:42:12 AM
- if the exit trigger was fully buried in terrain (ie. requires terrain removal to expose the trigger for use), then the corresponding entrance must be placed such that lemmings come out stuck inside the terrain. I would actually go as far as to say that the lemmings should come out at a vertical position ("position" as defined by Simon's definition of "effective coordinate" in this post) that's within the y range of the exit trigger, or lower if necessary for them to start stuck.
Oh dear. I've just noticed the difference between the reverse of Havoc 15 and Havoc 19, the only two levels that have buried entrances:
On 15, the lemmings can jump out onto the landing area, whereas in 19 they are stuck. Should 15 be remade so that the lemmings get stuck as well? If so, I'll have to re-check to see if that level is possible again.
Edit: Doesn't matter too much, because I've confirmed that it's still possible.
Post by: Clam on November 20, 2011, 06:39:44 PM
One question: For Blitz 3 ('Check your hints', the level with the fake exits), would it make more sense to:
1: Replace every exit with an entrance (note than only the first 4 in z-order will work), or
2: Replace only the real exit with an entrance, and delete the rest.
Right now I'm leaning towards #2.
Post by: finlay on November 20, 2011, 08:58:55 PM
Incidentally, on my Lemmix on the forward level, I can have the lemmings exit via the first exit on the left as well as the 8th or whichever one it's meant to be... Is that supposed to happen?
Post by: Clam on November 20, 2011, 09:37:23 PM
The leftmost exit working a known bug, IIRC the original level has a gap in the index (z-coordinates) of objects. Lemmix doesn't handle this correctly, it bumps the leftmost exit to z=15, which causes it to have a working trigger. Interestingly, the second exit (z=16) seems to work here too, despite the trigger area not being displayed, I'm pretty sure this is another bug.
In other index-related quirkiness, on Flurry 3 the entrance is at z=18 (thanks to all the decorations
), so I had to change that in order to get a real exit.
Post by: Clam on November 20, 2011, 10:33:14 PM
A few level-specific notes:
Blitz 3: As mentioned above, I decided to discard the fake exits and swap the real one only.
Blitz 12: The exit is buried when placed as high as possible, feel free to un-bury it before playing.
Blitz 14: The original has a buried exit, so I moved the entrance to land you exactly where the top of the exit trigger was.
Frost 3: The left exit is buried in the original level, so I moved that entrance down so the lemmings get stuck.
Frost 8: I put the left entrance at ground level to give you as much time as possible.
Post by: ccexplore on November 20, 2011, 11:49:16 PM
One question: For Blitz 3 ('Check your hints', the level with the fake exits), would it make more sense to:
A little late to the discussion, but as you noted yourself, only 4 of the entrances would work with option 1, so option 2 would make more sense to me.
If you want to fake all but one entrance, you can simply put 4 overlapping copies of entrance objects for the real one, then the rest (with higher indices than those 4) will be fake. It would look weird though IMO.
Post by: Luis on November 28, 2011, 04:31:08 PM
Lemmings Reverse Just Dig!
Post by: finlay on November 29, 2011, 12:35:24 PM
Also, that doesn't look much like Lemmini, with the toolbar from DOS lemmings and all...
Post by: Luis on November 29, 2011, 01:36:24 PM
Post by: finlay on November 29, 2011, 03:46:15 PM
(Remember to add skills to the level before you play it)
Also, by the looks of your video of Fun 4, you've been playing it with Lemmix's Custom Lemmings mode with the faulty fall height (is it possible to change that to the correct fall height, by the way?), because your lemmings aren't dying from falling off the pink entrance platform. (and you haven't been using the same version as the rest of us, because yours has water at the bottom)
Post by: Luis on November 29, 2011, 04:34:22 PM
Post by: ccexplore on November 29, 2011, 08:10:14 PM
Post by: Luis on November 29, 2011, 08:58:03 PM
Post by: Clam on November 29, 2011, 09:19:48 PM
- If you're playing a Lemmings level, use 'Dos Original Lemmings' mode
- If you're playing an ONML level, use 'Dos OhNo! More Lemmings' mode
- If you're playing a Xmas or Holiday Lemmings level, use 'Dos Holiday 94' mode (I think 91, 92, 93 and 94 use the same mechanics, so you can use any of those four)
This challenge uses modified levels, which confuses things, but to ensure we're doing the challenge right, it's best to use the same mechanics that the level originally used.
Post by: finlay on November 29, 2011, 09:35:34 PM
The file format is the same across the various PC versions of the game, but there are subtle differences in game mechanics. That's why it is important to pick the right style to use when playing levels in Lemmix. Lemmix has no way to tell a level should be played with Lemmings mechanics vs ONML vs Customized Lemmings etc. since all of them share the same file format for levels and levelpaks.Is it possible to manually change the mechanics for CustLemm played via Lemmix so that it uses the correct fall height?
Post by: Luis on November 29, 2011, 10:07:23 PM
Edit: Here's Fun 4 with three builders. I don't know how to beat Fun 3 with only four blockers.
Lemmings Reverse Now use miners and climbers
Post by: ccexplore on November 30, 2011, 03:11:02 AM
Is it possible to manually change the mechanics for CustLemm played via Lemmix so that it uses the correct fall height?
But then it would affect levels people already created for CustLemm that were tested with that "incorrect" falling height. Also, it doesn't really help you for the reversed levelsets anyway for various reasons.
I suppose one can create a CustLem2 style that maps the graphics set the same way as CustLemm style, but uses ONML mechanics with the correct falling height. But in practice, before Lemmix existed you don't really have a practical way to play such a levelset anyway, unless it only uses the PC Lemmings graphics set, in which case you can simply play it PC Lemmings itself and uses that style in Lemmix.
In any case, the 3 pixel differences in fall height usually doesn't matter, at least for general level solving. Yes, there are hilarious effects with selected levels like We All Fall Down, but they tend to be the rare exceptions rather than the rule.
Post by: Luis on June 12, 2013, 11:07:01 AM