Post by: Adam on December 04, 2010, 01:59:13 AM
Clam Spammer and I did a fair bit of work at the start, but I've run out of steam for now. If anyone fancies contributing anything, feel free to do so here.
Adam
Post by: Clam on December 04, 2010, 05:19:07 AM
), no dealings with money-hungry business types, no age restrictions (I recall this being an issue for some people)... and I'd hazard a guess it's faster too - probably because it has no ads 
. Basically, you can feel free to contribute without any moral objections - and let's face it, if you have moral objections about a Lemmings fansite, something is wrong with you 
First priority is to fix up the main page so it looks more welcoming and informative, instead of being just a collection of random discussion. If anyone knows about Wiki layouts and formatting, that'd be a great help!
Post by: Mr. K on December 04, 2010, 07:12:37 PM
Once basic formatting is all figured out, I might do a run-down of different ports of the game or something. I have a lot of them and always seem to run into more.
Post by: Minim on December 07, 2010, 07:43:27 PM
No wonder why Lemmings is out of date.
Post by: ccexplore on December 07, 2010, 09:09:07 PM
[edit: I can access it again now (Dec 7 5:19 PM GMT-8). I guess it could be issue on my end, but I was able to access other websites okay at the time]
I think the wiki formatting syntax is standard, so I'm guessing you could probably lift most of the old info from previous wiki, assuming they are worth lifting at all.
Different ports is a pretty good topic for the wiki. The fact is, most of the more commonly requested information like walkthroughs (for the most popular ports anyway), level codes, custom levels, editor and tools are already pretty well covered by various websites you can easily Google for. Some websites do cover non-PC ports of Lemmings but that sort of info tends to be more scattered and slightly harder to find. One really useful thing to include is maybe some instructions on how to find and set up emulators (this can be links to emulator websites) for trying out a particular port of the game.
Post by: Adam on December 07, 2010, 09:50:42 PM
Ports is going to be a major focus for this Wiki. I know the Master System port inside out, but struggle with most others. Between us, though, I think we could get a fairly comprehensive encyclopaedia of information.
Adam
Post by: Mr. K on December 07, 2010, 11:05:38 PM
I own physical copies of the following ports-- could possibly do scans if needed:
Game Boy Color (Lemmings and ONML)
PC/DOS (I believe it is a re-release version-- the manual mentions Lemmings 2 and ONML, for instance. I don't have the box but I have the manual, but probably can't scan much of it because when I was about 3 years old I colored all the pictures in with marker)
PSP
Sega Game Gear
Sega Genesis (also Lemmings 2)
Sega Master System
Sega Mega Drive
Super Famicom
Windows 95
ZX Spectrum (demo version)
I also have access to the following through various means:
Acorn Archimedes
Amiga
Apple IIgs
Atari ST
Commodore 64
Game Boy (original)
Lynx
Macintosh (Lemmings, ONML, Holiday Lemmings 94)
NES
PS1
PS3
Sam Coupe
SNES
TI-83/84
possibly 3DO, CD-i and X68000 but I haven't confirmed that
I also have some other outliers, like the PS1 version of 3D Lemmings.
I may make the ports my little personal project, though I'm going to want help because while I can track down obvious differences, little things might get past me (and I also don't have time to play through the whole game so many times) Also, we need to decide how we'll cover these. Should pages be made like "Lemmings (Super NES port)" with a common info-box giving some basic facts (release year, etc), and then we document primarily differences from a baseline version (Amiga original?) and include scans and screens?
Also, it might be information/data overload, but anyone up for music recordings between versions? I am very much into the music.
Post by: Clam on December 08, 2010, 11:24:25 PM
Wow. Four changes in the Special:RecentChanges box.
You bring up a good point actually. If people visit the forum and find it has a barely-started wiki, they might just assume the game and community are dead. It might be a good idea to keep it low-profile until it reaches a presentable state. After that though, throw it wide open and link it to the forum homepage.
Looks like the wiki's down again (Dec 7 1:04 PM GMT-8)? That was quick.
[edit: I can access it again now (Dec 7 5:19 PM GMT-8). I guess it could be issue on my end, but I was able to access other websites okay at the time]
If you think the wiki (or any site) might be down, but you're not sure, try http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/.
I may make the ports my little personal project, though I'm going to want help because while I can track down obvious differences, little things might get past me (and I also don't have time to play through the whole game so many times) Also, we need to decide how we'll cover these. Should pages be made like "Lemmings (Super NES port)" with a common info-box giving some basic facts (release year, etc), and then we document primarily differences from a baseline version (Amiga original?) and include scans and screens?
Since this is a Lemmings wiki, rather than a general wiki (as if Wikipedia would devote entire pages to ports anyway
), I think pages for ports should be titled "[port] Lemmings" rather than "Lemmings ([port])". It makes it easier to use search (with autocomplete) to find the port you want, and avoids ending up with a ton of pages called "Lemmings [something]".For levels that exist on multiple ports, we could have just one page for the level, and use subheading for each port to list any differences, so we don't end up with a huge number of similar pages. Not sure about similar levels with different titles (eg. Dolly Dimple / Dangerous Balcony), but probably those should have separate pages. Also, we need to organise the level list (on the pages for Fun, Tricky, Taxing, Mayhem) to show the different level titles. We tried using a table with a column for each port, but it wasn't very nice.
Music recordings would be great, so long as there aren't any legal issues.
Post by: Gronkling on February 22, 2011, 08:31:12 PM
Just gone on the wiki to make a few more pages to find 20 or so pages of averts made by some spammer.
I'll convert them into something more useful unless you want them deleted altogether.
Post by: ccexplore on February 22, 2011, 09:34:46 PM
I'm just glad the spambot/spamman didn't overwrite the existing pages as well.Unless you have time on your hands, I'd just wait for Adam (or whoever has admin privilege on the wiki) to delete the pages.
Post by: Clam on February 25, 2011, 12:22:08 AM
Post by: Gronkling on February 25, 2011, 03:19:59 PM
Post by: Clam on August 12, 2011, 04:35:49 AM
). Would it be a sensible idea to make it invite-only? Just because it's called a "Wiki", doesn't mean it has to be completely open, does it?
Post by: Clam on November 28, 2011, 09:16:24 AM
---
The wiki has been up for a year now, and I think it's time to seriously consider whether we should continue with it. It's getting more spam than ever, and there hasn't been a significant contribution for months. Heck, we haven't even dealt with the first priority (making a proper main page) yet.
We need to think about what information we want to provide to visitors, and how best to present it. I had a discussion with Simon about this a while back, and we came to the conclusion that a wiki isn't the best format for the information we're putting on there. We're better off just referring to the existing fansites. If we want a new repository for information, the best thing is for a single user to create and maintain it - the old adage rings true, 'if you want it done right, do it yourself'.
Take a look at what's on the wiki right now. I'd guess that upwards of 95% of the info on there can be found on the Lemmings Encyclopedia. We've barely even touched ports (not to mention the other topics that I wanted to include eventually - glitches and records/challenges). What we have covered (to some extent at least) are the original levels and their stats, solutions, screenshots etc, all of which is on TLE. That doesn't mean we're doing the wiki wrong, however - a wiki should be a complete reference source and contain all that information. It means we're using the wrong format. If you want a site about ports, then make a site about ports, not a complete site about Lemmings that happens to contain info on ports. Wikis are great, and I'd love to see a complete wiki for this game, it deserves one. But, as we're starting to realise by now, they take a lot of work to get to a passable state. We have maybe 20 regular forum posters. We all have other things to do with our time. There's simply not enough of us to work on a project of this size.
tl,dr: Close the wiki. (Okay, maybe too alarmist, but tbh that's how I see it.)
Post by: Simon on November 28, 2011, 11:28:46 AM
If only a few people want to present things, a regular website dedicated to that is often easier to make, maintain, and navigate.
-- Simon
Post by: ccexplore on November 28, 2011, 07:36:59 PM
I do agree that it looks unlikely we'll get a useful full-blown wiki out of the current state of affairs. But wiki as a simple interface for creating and updating the kinds of pages on specialized topics, that remains useful.
Post by: Gronkling on November 28, 2011, 09:13:58 PM
It's a shame about all the spam though. Why people continue to spam on wikis and forums I don't know as it obviously doesn't work. Also I changed the homepage into something slightly more welcoming, feel free to change the picture or any of the categories or anything else.
Post by: ccexplore on November 28, 2011, 09:33:30 PM
Why people continue to spam on wikis and forums I don't know as it obviously doesn't work.
My understanding of the economics of spam is that because they can be massively distributed in an automated fashion with fairly low cost (especially if done by hijacked/infected computers, effectively stealing someone else's networking bandwidth to distribute spam), they are therefore (sadly) extremely cheap to produce, so the cost is near 0. Which means that even though they may have a very low rate of consumer effectiveness, they nevertheless can remain viable. More nefariously, in other cases the spam may merely be a vector for viruses, malware and phishing scams etc. that have "value" (from the evildoers POW of course) outside of merely generating sales.
In other words, don't think of it as targeting our specific wiki and forum, but rather all popular types of wikis and forums, plus other mediums like emails etc.
Post by: Nortaneous on November 29, 2011, 06:45:39 AM
Why people continue to spam on wikis and forums I don't know as it obviously doesn't work.More links = higher ranking in search engines. It's not about getting people to click it; all that matters is that the links are there for the search engine crawlers to notice.
Post by: Clam on November 29, 2011, 07:11:26 AM
. I'm almost inspired to start editing again now Hmm, I have to admit I totally forgot about the wiki for a while now. But now that you brought it up, a wiki would be a perfect vehicle for organizing challenge results and replays (and keeping them updated regardless of whoever originated the thread), something I was thinking of doing over the upcoming holidays.
Organising challenge replays has crossed my mind as well lately, and I think geoo was interested in this too. This is definitely something we should look into.
Maybe 'close the wiki' isn't the right way to put it, since the collaborative wiki approach probably is better for community stuff like this than a single-user fansite, which is likely to stop updating if the creator is real-life busy or loses interest. What we could do instead is to have something that looks like a 'complete' wiki, but just focus on the interesting stuff and put off the grindy stuff (level stats, etc) forever.
As for the spam issue, what we might do (if it's possible) is to merge the wiki accounts with the forum, so you have to register for the forum to get edit rights to the wiki. The 'what colour is a lemming's hair' quiz (or whatever it is, I haven't looked at the registration page since it was changed) seems to be working for preventing spam on the forum, so with any luck this should keep the wiki clean as well.
Post by: ccexplore on November 29, 2011, 10:56:25 AM
and put off the grindy stuff (level stats, etc) forever.
Come to think of it, seems like there may be a good bit of overlap between what Finlay has been doing with his spreadsheet and the kind of "grindy" stuff we might want on the wiki. If we can just convince Finlay to format his stuff in Wiki instead of in Excel, we may well be 80% there even for the grindy stuff.
Post by: Clam on December 01, 2011, 07:54:57 AM
I don't think we need to delete it but we don't really have enough editors to make it into a fully blown wiki. I'll continue to edit anyway as I find editing wikis to be rather relaxing.
You must be extremely stressed out lately, considering all the 'relaxing' you're doing
. It's also curious that I mention closing the wiki and now it gets more updates than ever before Meanwhile, the spam continues to roll in. This is something we need to sort out pretty soon if we're going to keep the wiki viable. I googled up some useful-looking pages on wiki spam and what to do about it:
- Wiki spam
- Combating spam
- Anti-spam features
- Blocking Spam In Mediawiki
Post by: ccexplore on December 01, 2011, 09:43:42 AM
It appears I had used a different password from the forums when I signed up for the wiki, and now I no longer remember what it is. Worse, apparently I didn't leave an email address either so the "email new password" option also doesn't work. I think it may have to do with my paranoid distrust of security of wikis (which perhaps is not completely unfounded given the spam volume we've observed 
).Any possibility an admin can fix the issue with my wiki account not having an email, so that I can make use of the password reset? Adam? I'm sure you all know the email address by now, it's ccexplore (at) yahoo (dot com).
I suppose in worst case I can just sign up on the wiki again as ccexplore2.
Still, would be nice to recover my original account.
Post by: finlay on December 01, 2011, 02:30:11 PM
How do you mean?and put off the grindy stuff (level stats, etc) forever.
Come to think of it, seems like there may be a good bit of overlap between what Finlay has been doing with his spreadsheet and the kind of "grindy" stuff we might want on the wiki. If we can just convince Finlay to format his stuff in Wiki instead of in Excel, we may well be 80% there even for the grindy stuff.
I made a few pages for some ports of Lemmings. Could you check them out? Also, I think we need some kind of template for them, so that we can put in some explanatory data about their capabilities.
Post by: ccexplore on December 01, 2011, 09:07:12 PM
How do you mean?
Didn't you compile like a list of all levels in several Lemmings games and for several different ports? With details like level title, stats, etc. I was just thinking that the wiki probably wanted the same information.
Post by: finlay on December 01, 2011, 11:42:18 PM
Post by: ccexplore on December 02, 2011, 02:02:12 AM
I guess as a start, simply taking the Excel and just make it same table format in the Wiki would be a start, though I'm sure we can do better. Deveria.com's approach is kinda nice but I know some of it exceeds wiki capabilities (eg. the neat flyout of larger level picture with stats).
Post by: finlay on December 02, 2011, 05:09:29 PM
I started making a couple of redirects like this to begin with, but it'll take a while to do the rest of them and I'm not really sure I can be bothered right now
Also, I had a bit of a binge earlier this evening and made all of Fun and Tricky be in roughly the same format with little pieces of trivia added for some of them (like the origins of the titles).
Some notes on what I'm currently doing: spelling errors are a major one, but sorting out all the levels to have a navigation box and some info is the main one. I'm also replacing every instance of a spelt-out number 10 or above with the numeral, for clarity's sake (some of them are also misspelt).
The other one is that I've just made a new template "LevelInfobox2" for levels that have a differing number of lemmings and/or goal in DOS Lemmings and Amiga Lemmings.
Post by: LemSteven on December 03, 2011, 04:59:23 AM
Post by: finlay on December 03, 2011, 02:10:19 PM
Anyway, I've finished inserting some info about each level of the original lemmings, and formatting them so they're all roughly the same (although I've stuck some stuff in the Trivia section that could go in a Ports section instead and the Trivia sections could probably use bullet point lists...).
Well, i'm not doing any more today, because I've had enough, but there are a couple of other things that I think need doing – in particular, the Fun levels all have screenshots from the Windows version in jpg format, and it'd be good if they could be changed to screenshots from the Amiga version in png format, like the rest of the game. I think it was Gronkling who uploaded all the Amiga screenshots, so maybe doing it for Fun too would be a possibility? As i say, i'd do it but i'm a bit sick of the wiki now.
Post by: ccexplore on December 04, 2011, 08:19:36 AM
Any possibility an admin can fix the issue with my wiki account not having an email, so that I can make use of the password reset? Adam? I'm sure you all know the email address by now, it's ccexplore (at) yahoo (dot com).
Well, with no response whatsoever from Adam on my PM one way or another, I guess it's time to create a user account at the wiki. How does "AdamSux" sound?
Post by: ccexplore on December 04, 2011, 11:32:51 AM
)It's far from complete but I'm hoping it gives a rough sense of how I envision the information can be organized. The tables are also nicely reusable across all the different challenges. A few salient points to note:
- I include both the level rating/number (eg. "Fun 1") as well as level title, to aid people looking for a particular result via searching.
- I originally envision uploading all replays and other "challenge evidence" onto the wiki as file uploads. However, I'm currently blocked by the fact that the wiki doesn't allow .lrb or .zip file uploads. For now I've included an example of a "replay link" (see Tricky 23), even though it's an external rather than internal link (in this case it points to the replay on the File Portal).
- For many types of challenges where solutions tend to be nonportable across different ports, I actually envision having separate result pages per port, and then the main challenge page would link to those individual per-port result pages.
For maximum % however, because many of the results are fairly trivial and therefore quite portable across versions, I experimented with reporting results for multiple ports on the same table. My personal verdict is mixed success. It's already apparent for example that the current set of tables do not accomodate the Genesis/Megadrive levels well, because the level ordering is a bit different, and it shares some but not all levels with the more "original" ports. So I think I'd have to do that version as a separate page anyway.
So most likely I will wind up doing per-port result pages even for the maximum % challenge, despite my current attempt to combine a few ports (DOS, Amiga, SNES, Mac) into one table with tolerable success.
- at some point there should be links back to the pages for individual levels
- help would be appreciated creating the basic table templates for the other games (eg. ONML, Holiday, Lemmings 2, etc.). The template would allow rapid reuse of the tables across many challenges and ports (in particular, saving you the grindy part of having to enter all the level names etc.)
Feedback welcome!
Post by: finlay on December 04, 2011, 07:32:54 PM
Anyway, I started going down your Maximum % list and making all the level titles into links, but I only got to the end of Fun because it was boring.
I also made pages for the Genesis ratings and a list of levels for each, and I've updated every relevant page with a new navigation box for the Genesis version as well as all the other versions. (I made a new template "browse3" for this purpose, which links to [[RATING (Genesis)]] instead of [[RATING]], eg [[Fun (Genesis]] instead of [[Fun]], but just displays "Fun" to the user.)
Post by: ccexplore on December 05, 2011, 01:50:30 PM
- I've split off results page into their own pages, one per game and port.
- I've added an "access code" column (but too lazy to fill it out for now, to be honest I may never do it myself), and removed the "port" column as we're now doing separate tables (pages actually) for each port
- I've renamed the "evidence" column into the far more natural sounding "solutions"
- I like Finlay's edits of making the level titles linking back to their respective wiki pages. However, I think making text like "Fun 1" also links is a bit redundant so those were reverted back to plain text.
Take a look and let me know what you think.
Post by: finlay on December 05, 2011, 04:30:58 PM
Also, I've been consistently referring to Genesis Lemmings as Genesis rather than Megadrive, just so you know.
Definitely link to the category pages too. The category pages should probably have a similar table; at the moment they're just a list.
Also Mayhem 3 & 4 have 30 and 80 lemmings on the Mac version, which is closer to the Amiga version than the DOS version, despite it generally having reduced levels with 100 lemmings to 80 like the DOS version.
Also, generally when I've mentioned different ports on any page I've been linking back to them like [[Amiga]] or [[DOS]] in the first instance. I've made a few changes to the Mac version page as they occur to me; maybe take a quick look at the change log for that page to see what I've been going for...
Post by: ccexplore on December 05, 2011, 08:05:05 PM
Access Codes should have their own page IMO. Then you can have a column for each different version. I don't think you need to include them on the max % page.
Oh okay, I guess I misunderstood you then. I thought you wanted them on the challenge result pages so people can more easily jump to a particular level.
I guess certainly for DOS Lemmings (which will likely be the majority of reported challenge results anyway), there's really no (major) issue since most people can use Lemmix anyway (and likely will when many of the solutions will be Lemmix replays).
I will take out that column later tonight.
Also, I've been consistently referring to Genesis Lemmings as Genesis rather than Megadrive, just so you know.
I think that's because you are Canadian, right? When people first brought up those levels in the old forums, they refer to the game as "Megadrive" Lemmings, I guess because that's how the game console was marketed in Europe and some of the folks there were British. In the US it's marketed as "Genesis", and I never even heard of "Megadrive" until in the forums. I'm thinking I need to mention both names so there are no confusion from either side.
Post by: finlay on December 05, 2011, 09:53:48 PM
)It's just that's how I was introduced to the Lemmings version a long time ago. I never had a Megadrive when I was younger (although I do vaguely remember primary school arguments about whether a Super Nintendo or a Sega Mega Drive was better, which I never really took part in – the first console I got was a Playstation), and it took me a year or two after finding out about the "Genesis version" of Lemmings to connect the dots and work out that Genesises (Geneses?) and Megadrives are the same thing. (On that note, it took me a similar while to work out that a SNES is what I would call a "Super Nintendo")
I don't particularly want to have to say "Genesis/Mega Drive" every time it comes up, that's all. So I picked one and went with it. It was already referred to as a "SEGA Genesis" on the main page anyway. At the very least, let's keep the version identifier used in the URLs as Genesis, just to be consistent – I guess it's up to you whether you want to write "Genesis/Mega Drive" every time. (Also, I'm not sure whether it's Mega Drive or Megadrive, and calling it Genesis eliminates that element of confusion!)
Also, I know we don't need access codes, strictly speaking, but they would be very useful for folks wanting to jump to a level on any version other than DOS, including the aforementioned Genesis/Mega Drive version. For example, I think I have a hacked version of Mac Lemmings where you only need to input the level number you want to jump to, but I don't have a hacked version of Mac ONML. And there are a million-and-one lists out there we could just copy; they're the same for Amiga/Mac/DOS, which helps. The only version I don't have recorded on my spreadsheet is the SNES version, because I didn't want to make an extra column – they're recorded for the unique levels of that version though.
Post by: LemSteven on December 06, 2011, 06:25:44 AM
Let me know what you think about this.
Post by: ccexplore on December 06, 2011, 11:20:27 AM
I'm also thinking that the max-% tables can be merged into a single table, with the levels going down the columns and the different versions going across the rows. Each cell in the table can have an external link to the appropriate solution.
Well, merging tables is something I started with. I originally stopped because I felt it really only works well when you confine yourself to the few ports that has the nearly all the same levels in same order, namely DOS, Amiga, Atari ST, SNES, Megadrive, Mac, and Windows. Okay, so I guess that's quite a few now that I started jotting them down (and there are probably more).
My main concern was that for some other ports, the levels are different enough that their tables probably won't merge well with the main table containing the ports listed above. Ports such as Genesis, Nintendo, Gameboy and Sega Master System comes to mind. So it seems like you'll probably still end up with multiple tables, but I guess fewer of them.
And now going back to the "very similar" ports listed above, we have enough such ports that we'll end up with a good many number of columns. Though this may be okay, especially if we use a single column to report the result in all 3 forms (numbers saved, % saved, and link to solution) then I guess we aren't talking about too many columns, and it would facilitate comparing results amongst the different ports when it's all in one table.
So maybe I can give that a try again. May be too busy the next day or two to start the edits though.
Post by: ccexplore on December 06, 2011, 11:30:37 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Tables#Converting_spreadsheet_to_wikitable_format
This may be useful especially in the early stages of creating challenge result pages, when the layout of the table columns may be in flux. Plus editing the data in a WYSIWYG tool like Excel is likely much easier than dealing with raw wiki codes. Sadly I haven't started off with such tools, but I think I will start now to make my life easier.
(I'm not sure, but I think you can also copy a table from the wiki webpage and paste it back into Excel as well.)
Post by: finlay on December 06, 2011, 05:48:31 PM
Just need to find a place to put it now, main page perhaps?
Edit: Also just made a page for every Tame level and the first 5 of Crazy. (The tame ones are easy: copy, paste, copy, paste) I haven't uploaded any pictures for the levels though.
Post by: LemSteven on December 08, 2011, 02:10:28 AM
I am thinking about adding a max saved entry to the LevelInfobox template so that the max-% data for DOS (since it is the most widely used version).
I changed my mind about this -- the LevelInfobox templates mainly contain the information shown on the level start-up screen when you're playing the game, and I think it should stay this way. It would probably be better to just make a special note of the max-% solutions that aren't inherently obvious. I've already done this in the trivia sections for The Boiler Room and Save Me.
Post by: finlay on December 08, 2011, 12:25:55 PM
Post by: finlay on December 10, 2011, 01:05:37 AM
Post by: Clam on December 10, 2011, 01:48:27 AM
Post by: finlay on December 10, 2011, 02:04:32 AM
Post by: Scott5114 on February 18, 2012, 06:40:10 PM
As for how to prevent it the easiest way is to probably disallow editing without an account. That way spam accounts can be easily blocked when detected. The trick then is to keep up on recent change patrolling so that reverting spammers is done quickly. One would hope if they don't have their stuff left up for very long, they'll go find an easier target...
Post by: Clam on February 18, 2012, 11:44:03 PM
There's no need to alert admins to spam pages - it's easy enough to find these through the Recent Changes list. The problem is, there are so many spam pages, and they roll in so fast, that it's impractical to delete (or even tag) them all one by one. I kinda hope there's some way to revert the entire wiki to an earlier date - say, mid-December, when the last actual edits were made.
Disabling edits without accounts won't help much, a lot of the spammers create an account before spamming. What you could do is allow account creation by permission only, or to forum members only (note that wiki accounts are distinct from forum accounts). AFAIK only Adam is able to make changes like this though. And even if I'm technically permitted to, I have no idea how
(and I don't know if Adam knows how either ). Unfortunately, Adam hasn't posted here in ages, so I don't know what he's up to, or even if he's still interested in the wiki.Whatever we decide to do, something needs to be done about this ASAP. It's only going to get worse otherwise
.tl,dr: Close the wiki. (That worked last time, right?
)
Post by: Scott5114 on February 19, 2012, 05:02:42 PM
Post by: Scott5114 on February 23, 2012, 07:57:23 PM